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post #31 of 71 Old 06-30-2016, 08:05 AM
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So what happens when Doby Vision is shown on an HDR 10 compatible projector? Is it down graded to HDR10 or SDR 8 bit?

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post #32 of 71 Old 06-30-2016, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
So what happens when Doby Vision is shown on an HDR 10 compatible projector? Is it down graded to HDR10 or SDR 8 bit?
Yes, the Dolby Vision HDR is automatically downgraded to HDR 10 standard, Dolby designed it that way.
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post #33 of 71 Old 07-01-2016, 10:19 AM
 
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There is no technical reason that a projector which can't come anywhere close to achieving 10k nits even for specular highlights, or even handle 12-bit color depth natively, couldn't accept Dolby Vision signals and apply the dynamic metadata processing to the HDR image prior to displaying it in a normally "HDR10" spec projector.

Dolby Vision is superior to HDR10 for more than the dynamic v static reason. You wouldn't even have to change the HDMI input chip in order to decode Dolby Vision, all you need is HDMI 1.4 or above. This info came to me straight from discussions with top Dolby engineers helping integrate their tech with their partners.

Dolby Vision display doesn't need anything different than HDR10, other than upscaling from 422 or 420 12-bit YCbCr to RGB 12/12/12 (36 bit deep color, which has been around since HDMI 1.3), and using the same exact PQ 2084 curves, then if your display can't do 12-bit you use some dithering on the 12-bit signal to get 10-bit out of it, and use the dynamic metadata to vary the attenuation / backlight / whatever else on a frame-by-frame basis instead of setting it once and leaving it as the current HDR10 static metadata does.

There is already shader code out there, as well as HDR signal generator boxes that automatically generates dynamic HDR signals from either static or non-existent curves.

I mean, ask yourself, for your current SDR projector, how the bulb intensity is changed dynamically during the movie, other than by analyzing the APL of each frame. Doing a histogram analysis on each frame (or even each color channel in each frame independently) is a really simple, trivial operation, and there is plenty of hardware to do that already.

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post #34 of 71 Old 07-05-2016, 01:12 PM
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@LumenChip JVC has those 4K plus e-shift projectors. Just call Boeing it has been selling these JVC 8K projectors since 2012.
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post #35 of 71 Old 07-05-2016, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
I searched for these terms in the $20K+ forum and didn't get anything. Do you have some links?
Don't know what he is refering to, but there is this:

Barco acquires Canadian HDR projection expertise
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post #36 of 71 Old 07-05-2016, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalumberjack View Post
This thread is the exact debate I have been having with myself for the past few months. I am getting closer to finishing my little theater room and am getting closer to having to make my decision between projector or TV.
On one hand, TV's are current when it comes to 4k & HDR options and most have the wider color gamut to support Ultra Premium Wizard Worldly Dragons Can Fly HD (They can pay my royalties when they run out of acronyms and use mine)
But, average cost of a 70-75' TV is going to range from the Vizio $4,000 to LG's, Sony's, or Samsungs $8,000 price point.

The new projectors from Epson do have limited HDR qualifications and cover some of the P3 wider color gamut. But, they can't do native 4k as they use a shifting technology just like JVC. These projectors also range in cost for $3,000 to $4,000 (or skies the limit of course with other brands), but you can get a much bigger image than your 4K TV!


So its a hard choice. Choose between a more relevant or more up to date tech on a TV; or go with a Projector that will give you a bigger image, maybe even a better image depending on projector, but not have the options such as P3 color space, both HDR formats, and 4K resolution without having to lens-shift to get it.

Now if I only had $15K to waste on a projector this wouldn't be a problem!!
For all their hassle and drawbacks over just flipping on a TV, there is nothing like the image a good projector throws vs looking at a TV. Bigger image, and light reflecting off a good quality screen just looks different ( better IMO ) than watching a large TV. I guess I'm a die hard projector nut at this point. Nothing like it.
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post #37 of 71 Old 07-05-2016, 01:52 PM
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^^ well, except the light reflection part. Aren't projectors a whole heck of a lot dimmer as far as light output goes than LCDs? Granted, that whole "nothing like a projector" isn't all that different from "nothing like a classic Porsche 911," whereby you just can't get that look and feel with anything else. To be honest, a projector is the ultimate movie theater experience. But we're still stuck with a dilemma of having to choose older technology (1080p and standard colors) versus 4K and HDR for flat panels.

I suppose I'll ask this question: are there any cost savings to be had in buying a used 1080p projector and screen to save money and then upgrade later when 4K really takes off (maybe 2018)? Or will 1080p prices tank by then?
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post #38 of 71 Old 07-05-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
^^ well, except the light reflection part. Aren't projectors a whole heck of a lot dimmer as far as light output goes than LCDs?
Depends on the screen size, but in general, in a darkened environment, you wouldn't want a projector to be 100+ nits at projection screen sizes.

Quote:
Granted, that whole "nothing like a projector" isn't all that different from "nothing like a classic Porsche 911," whereby you just can't get that look and feel with anything else. To be honest, a projector is the ultimate movie theater experience. But we're still stuck with a dilemma of having to choose older technology (1080p and standard colors) versus 4K and HDR for flat panels.

I suppose I'll ask this question: are there any cost savings to be had in buying a used 1080p projector and screen to save money and then upgrade later when 4K really takes off (maybe 2018)? Or will 1080p prices tank by then?
Why? Just get something like an RS400 or RS500, or one of the new Epson x040 series projectors. They'll do HDR and WCG. Sure they're not native 4K but (in the JVC at least, we'll have to wait and see on the Epsons, they're not out yet) they produce comparable levels of detail to Sony's native 4K projectors.
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post #39 of 71 Old 07-11-2016, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by catonic View Post
Yes, the Dolby Vision HDR is automatically downgraded to HDR 10 standard, Dolby designed it that way.
There are multiple different Dolby Vision profiles. You can encode Dolby Vision in such a way that there's no fallback at all (meaning no playback possible), or that it falls back to HDR10, or to SDR, when played back on non-Dolby-Vision compatible devices. Not sure which of these profiles will be supported and used by UHD Blu-Ray and Amazon.
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post #40 of 71 Old 07-11-2016, 04:04 PM
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What I find interesting is there aren't, at least that I've found, any affordable native 4k option in the foreseeable future. Once manufacturers start using the new DLP 4k single chip from TI, which isn't even native 4k but should be better than pixel shift 4k, I would imagine this may cause some problems with Sony, Epson, and JVC. That is to assume companies like BenQ will take this chip and put it into a cheap and affordable 4k projector, like their modern 1080p ones, which really don't perform very well.

In my opinion, I see the future price point on 4k projectors being decided at the price point these new 4k single chip DLP projectors get released at. I'm not sure if there is any speculation on that yet.

Personally I'd take a good DLP projector any day over the motion blur that LCD and LCoS create. Even if I had $15,000 to spend on the Sony I would be turned off by its motion resolution.

I've always been a fan of televisions and as much as I love projection I always have a hard time with the motion blur.
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post #41 of 71 Old 07-11-2016, 06:17 PM
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I've recently had a JVC funny you say you've been put off by the Sony's motion as that's one of the main reasons why I ditched the J Sony has some of the best motion out there along with Epson. The current JVC produce some very nice images but I went with the Sony as I appreciate more clarity and detail plus other things. If you are only into movies the JVC or perhaps the upcoming new Epson will satisfy but as others say it will be quite some time before any affordable true 4K unit emerges.
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post #42 of 71 Old 07-11-2016, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
I've recently had a JVC funny you say you've been put off by the Sony's motion as that's one of the main reasons why I ditched the J Sony has some of the best motion out there along with Epson. The current JVC produce some very nice images but I went with the Sony as I appreciate more clarity and detail plus other things. If you are only into movies the JVC or perhaps the upcoming new Epson will satisfy but as others say it will be quite some time before any affordable true 4K unit emerges.
Hi,
What model j, was it HDR ? I'm struggling with just this very problem
and would like a true 4K.
Had a j, rs400 shipped here but it came in all busted up freaking company sent it just in the box j puts them in. Sent it back to them
doubled boxed at the request of the supplier, go figure they should have done that for me. Now I can't say I trust them so got a refund.
Maybe they sent it that way can't say for sure.
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post #43 of 71 Old 07-11-2016, 07:28 PM
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It was an RS400. It threw a very nice image and HDR was good enough but I prefer the Sony in most ways. True 4K is true 4K. I am very impressed with my new 365ES. Just working out the correct HDR settings now but am happy so far.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #44 of 71 Old 07-11-2016, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
It was an RS400. It threw a very nice image and HDR was good enough but I prefer the Sony in most ways. True 4K is true 4K. I am very impressed with my new 365ES. Just working out the correct HDR settings now but am happy so far.
How does brightness compare? Which one has it in that area?
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post #45 of 71 Old 07-11-2016, 10:47 PM
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The 400 was 1700 lumens the 365 is 1500 but still plenty bright and actually surprisingly good with HDR once setup properly. Brightness is no issue in my room.
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post #46 of 71 Old 07-12-2016, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post
Hi,
What model j, was it HDR ? I'm struggling with just this very problem
and would like a true 4K.
Had a j, rs400 shipped here but it came in all busted up freaking company sent it just in the box j puts them in. Sent it back to them
doubled boxed at the request of the supplier, go figure they should have done that for me. Now I can't say I trust them so got a refund.
Maybe they sent it that way can't say for sure.
We always double box projectors. It's amazing what the shipping companies can do to a package. Kind of like this -

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...dU8e_kHFOXFK0A
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post #47 of 71 Old 07-12-2016, 09:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
We always double box projectors. It's amazing what the shipping companies can do to a package. Kind of like this -

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...dU8e_kHFOXFK0A
This one always makes me laugh

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post #48 of 71 Old 07-12-2016, 09:16 AM
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Don't worry about it - that's just a pallet of cheap Optoma projectors !
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post #49 of 71 Old 07-12-2016, 03:45 PM
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4k HDR Projector choice in 2016?

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
This one always makes me laugh



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbNq2xdvU_g


That's a good one
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post #50 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
The 400 was 1700 lumens the 365 is 1500 but still plenty bright and actually surprisingly good with HDR once setup properly. Brightness is no issue in my room.
Do you currently have the 320 or 365? I am currently running t he Sony sw40es 1080p projector, and I am looking at Sony 4k now. I really like what my projector does, and since Sony is the only 1 to do native 4k affordably, I am looking at Sony options.
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post #51 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post
Do you currently have the 320 or 365? I am currently running t he Sony sw40es 1080p projector, and I am looking at Sony 4k now. I really like what my projector does, and since Sony is the only 1 to do native 4k affordably, I am looking at Sony options.
Yes I do and am extremely happy with it. Tested the competition thoroughly and went back to Sony 4K. If you are happy with your 40ES (I've had one of those as well) you will be blown away by Sony 4K. You can pick up a 2nd hand 300ES or 500ES for a very good price these days. Must say the 320 is a nice improvement over the 300.
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post #52 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Depends on the screen size, but in general, in a darkened environment, you wouldn't want a projector to be 100+ nits at projection screen sizes.
.
That's the problem with FP HDR. There needs to a better way to adjust brightness at an individual pixel level. We want pixels with 0 nits and 4000 nits simultaneously displayed.

Lasers and stacked DMDs with ultra dark screens is the only way to get close IMO.

All is white with the world...

Another day, another investigation delayed by Apple.

Sheeple suck.
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post #53 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 09:22 PM
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I am happy the way it is now as long as I can finally get a good player other than the Samsung.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #54 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post
Do you currently have the 320 or 365? I am currently running t he Sony sw40es 1080p projector, and I am looking at Sony 4k now. I really like what my projector does, and since Sony is the only 1 to do native 4k affordably, I am looking at Sony options.
As of right this moment, with what's out there, you have to ask yourself two questions,

Will you be gaming on the unit thus require low input lag? If yes is the answer, stick with Sony.

Why do you need native 4k? It is just to watch 4k video, or are you looking to use it as a 4k HTPC desktop display?

If you are looking for the best 4k video image currently. The Sony does not have it, as the lenses don't resolve the detail coming out of the panels...

This has been shown here in a comparison between RS400 and VW650ES

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/175443

You tell me which one displays more 'native' 4k resolving detail?

Hint, not the Sony. This test may be even more embarrassing if they used an RS600 with the cream of the crop JVC lenses. You would have even less MTF Losses to the screen then. The Sony lenses in the current range just do not cut it.

If you are looking at a 4k HTPC Windows or Mac desktop environment, that is the only time you genuinely need native 4k right now... UNTIL new Native 4k JVC units come out with the current pairing of the truly excellent lenses they contain. Sony's current offerings are not better than last year.

Bandyka keeps mentioning the motion on the Sony is better... Well its not. Him and I went and looked at a whole bunch of units together, what he keeps neglecting to mention is he is a Motion Interpolation advocate and as such he prefers the way the Sony does that better. In fact, I sold him MY old 300ES when I got my JVC RS500/X7000. he just upgraded to the 320ES because he quickly discovered the shortcomings of the unit after the native 4k honeymoon wore off.

I had my 300ES and X7000 stacked for a couple of days, and I overlaid the picture split source, the motion is 10000% identical when normal motion is concerned... 24p, no interpolation. I know this because I had the overlaid image almost so perfect that the image was almost totally in focus when both units were on at the same time, so when playing content, if one had worse motion or judder than the other, then the image would have lagged behind and fell out of focus, this did not happen, meaning both display motion in the same exact way when native frame rates are concerned.

Since the JVC does not use Reality Creations aggressive processing, the JVC may appear less detailed and sharp... All that went away using MadVR and suitable supersampling on the JVC. My image I have now is the best I have ever seen hands down.

When JVC bring out a laser 4k unit or native 4k UHP based units in 2017 it will be a pretty good showdown then that's for sure. Sony at their price point with the lenses they are using is frankly unacceptable.
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post #55 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
As of right this moment, with what's out there, you have to ask yourself two questions,

Will you be gaming on the unit thus require low input lag? If yes is the answer, stick with Sony.

Why do you need native 4k? It is just to watch 4k video, or are you looking to use it as a 4k HTPC desktop display?

If you are looking for the best 4k video image currently. The Sony does not have it, as the lenses don't resolve the detail coming out of the panels...

This has been shown here in a comparison between RS400 and VW650ES

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/175443

You tell me which one displays more 'native' 4k resolving detail?

Hint, not the Sony. This test may be even more embarrassing if they used an RS600 with the cream of the crop JVC lenses. You would have even less MTF Losses to the screen then. The Sony lenses in the current range just do not cut it.

If you are looking at a 4k HTPC Windows or Mac desktop environment, that is the only time you genuinely need native 4k right now... UNTIL new Native 4k JVC units come out with the current pairing of the truly excellent lenses they contain. Sony's current offerings are not better than last year.

Bandyka keeps mentioning the motion on the Sony is better... Well its not. Him and I went and looked at a whole bunch of units together, what he keeps neglecting to mention is he is a Motion Interpolation advocate and as such he prefers the way the Sony does that better. In fact, I sold him MY old 300ES when I got my JVC RS500/X7000. he just upgraded to the 320ES because he quickly discovered the shortcomings of the unit after the native 4k honeymoon wore off.

I had my 300ES and X7000 stacked for a couple of days, and I overlaid the picture split source, the motion is 10000% identical when normal motion is concerned... 24p, no interpolation. I know this because I had the overlaid image almost so perfect that the image was almost totally in focus when both units were on at the same time, so when playing content, if one had worse motion or judder than the other, then the image would have lagged behind and fell out of focus, this did not happen, meaning both display motion in the same exact way when native frame rates are concerned.

Since the JVC does not use Reality Creations aggressive processing, the JVC may appear less detailed and sharp... All that went away using MadVR and suitable supersampling on the JVC. My image I have now is the best I have ever seen hands down.

When JVC bring out a laser 4k unit or native 4k UHP based units in 2017 it will be a pretty good showdown then that's for sure. Sony at their price point with the lenses they are using is frankly unacceptable.
The motion is way better for my eyes and brain on the Sony, JVC used to give me a headache Sony never did full stop ( JVC with even motion processing on did) there are others out there on this forum with the same experience but of course I may be more sensitive to this. Yes your 300ES had lens issues it was sharp on the left but not on the right this ruined your experience and so did mine this seems to be an issue with last gen. The new 320ES is razor sharp across the whole screen (you should come and check it out) and the detail is amazing. Yes the JVC lens is still better but not having true 4K on-board the advantage is just not there with native content. Even you showed me the difference in detail and sharpness and we both agreed. The JVC just isn't true 4K no matter what. Yes it has advantages but so does the Sony. The question was about true 4K anyway
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post #56 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
The motion is way better for my eyes and brain on the Sony, JVC used to give me a headache Sony never did full stop ( JVC with even motion processing on did) there are others out there on this forum with the same experience but of course I may be more sensitive to this. Yes your 300ES had lens issues it was sharp on the left but not on the right this ruined your experience and so did mine this seems to be an issue with last gen. The new 320ES is razor sharp across the whole screen (you should come and check it out) and the detail is amazing. Yes the JVC lens is still better but not having true 4K on-board the advantage is just not there with native content. Even you showed me the difference in detail and sharpness and we both agreed. The JVC just isn't true 4K no matter what. Yes it has advantages but so does the Sony. The question was about true 4K anyway


Its a polarising subject thats for sure!

We looked at 1080p content, with reality creation on, which has been shown to be a rather unfair comparison.

You should bring your 320 over and we can stack them!

Do a real comparison with native 4k and using MadVR on both units, reality creation switched off.

Im sure that would be interesting.

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post #57 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I did update my home theater. I replaced my JVC rs40 with an rs600, my Integra DHC 80.3 with a Marantz 7702mkii, and bought a Samsung 8500 4K blu ray player. I also had Directv bring out a newer genie box and mini genie to do 4K tv from them.

Overall I'm very happy with the results. The extra lumens are great, and really necessary for any HDR material. I have a 110" Studiotek 1.3 screen in a totally dark room with the projector approx 12' from the screen and it's not too bright at all. If anything with HDR material I could use more lumens, but the RS600 is great and low lamp is enough for rec709 stuff.

I see why HDR LCDs are so bright, you need a lot more lumens for properly calibrated HDR stuff compared to old rec 709 material.
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post #58 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 10:46 PM
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Yeah you should come over and bring yours Too much hassle to undo the setup but yes would be interesting, and see I have no need for additional processing such as MadVR plus I can hardly see a difference with RC on/off, I feel this has been improved over last gen too. Man, set a few hours aside come over and then I might bring the PJ over to yours too Besides I think I need a new screen.

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post #59 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uzun View Post
I did update my home theater. I replaced my JVC rs40 with an rs600, my Integra DHC 80.3 with a Marantz 7702mkii, and bought a Samsung 8500 4K blu ray player. I also had Directv bring out a newer genie box and mini genie to do 4K tv from them.

Overall I'm very happy with the results. The extra lumens are great, and really necessary for any HDR material. I have a 110" Studiotek 1.3 screen in a totally dark room with the projector approx 12' from the screen and it's not too bright at all. If anything with HDR material I could use more lumens, but the RS600 is great and low lamp is enough for rec709 stuff.

I see why HDR LCDs are so bright, you need a lot more lumens for properly calibrated HDR stuff compared to old rec 709 material.
With the Samsung I found I needed to bump the brightness ON the player itself to get an acceptable image. It could be different in your case. I am waiting for the Philips player to arrive.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #60 of 71 Old 07-23-2016, 11:38 PM
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Sony vs Jvc

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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Yes I do and am extremely happy with it. Tested the competition thoroughly and went back to Sony 4K. If you are happy with your 40ES (I've had one of those as well) you will be blown away by Sony 4K. You can pick up a 2nd hand 300ES or 500ES for a very good price these days. Must say the 320 is a nice improvement over the 300.
Thanks for responding! It is tough shopping for a native 4k projector, because so few are hdr compliant, the non $50,000 price range projectors have low lumens, and reviews talk about content displaying better on sdr content vs hdr. The $20,000 1100es came out before hdr, and Sony's website doesn't discuss this.

Having read reviews on JVC models, it appears they are using a lens shift to attempt to duplicate 4k, and there are talks about jvc having the best blacks (meaning it actually produces black instead of shades of gray). I play video games on my system, and the lag is concerning.
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