Epson Debuts HDR Projectors at CE Week 2016 - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
If you're width limited in your theater room and use a Scope Screen instead of a 16:9 screen (same width), your max 16:9 image area will be only 56% (0.75 * 0.75) of what it could be. Bad move. Bigger is better. For both 16:9 and Scope.

In my case, I'd go down from 138 inches diagonal to 103 inches, and the surface area would go down from 55 to 31 sq feet. (I double checked these numbers using a projector calculator).

If this sounds reasonable to you, then you're welcome to think that. Taking a 56% hit in image surface area for no (rational) reason sounds positively absurd to me. I don't move my couch all that much anyway, I'm not one of those "movie purists" (or perhaps rather "movie supremacists" haha) who believes that Game of Thrones or Daredevil has to be less epic in presentation than The Devil Wears Prada.
Just because you don't care about 70 years of film presentation convention (scope being larger than flat), doesn't make those who do "irrational". And again, there's no such thing as width limited if you've got flexibility in your seating placement. And if you're moving your seating around you do. You can get the same 16:9 experience by simply moving the seating forward with a scope screen, but you get the benefits of having your audio always optimized for the MLP, and scope being perceptually 76% bigger than it would be in a 16:9/CIW setup.

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The zoom method is useful to most people out there because unlike me, they don't live in lofts with 14 foot high ceilings, and typically watch movies in a much more modest, height challenged setting. Lofts rule. As do HUGE images. Every time people come over their jaws drop. Then I tell them my projector costs under half a G now and they are like, wtf why did we spend double that on a puny television we should have been smart and bought this. Duh.
I'm glad your happy with your setup. Some of us are willing to spend more money to get more performance, and some of us place more value on relative presentation than absolute size. Doesn't make either option irrational.

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The new Epsons with HDR are so far the only thing in the past five years I consider worth upgrading to, as in a reasonable price / benefit ratio. I'd rather the price were cheaper but I'm tired of waiting. UHD Blurays are out now and it's time. I don't think Dolby Vision and/or dynamic metadata HDR is worth waiting for, unless in a projector with waaaay more lumens than these, which probably implies laser which is going to be too costly for at least another couple years. so HDR10 it is, and static metadata it is. P3 is also fine because that's what most movies will be mastered or remastered to for at least a while. (I think).
I hope they live up to the hype, but LCD Epsons have a track record of not living up to their specs so I'm skeptical until I see some more (more detailed) reviews and actual measurements.
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post #242 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post
VERY interested in these new Epson models - specifically the 6040. Talk about bang for your buck, wow. Yeah, you might find other models that outperform it, but I have owned several generations of Epsons and what I have always been impressed with is their customer service. I think that alone is worth something. I'll wait for some official reviews and numbers, but I think I found my next upgrade from my current 6010.
I don't get the swooning over the price of these, other than the 4040, they're all in the ballpark or more expensive than a JVC RS400 (street pricing, considering the Epsons apparently have pretty controlled pricing).

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On a more critical note, I have found that this forum (as well as others) is sometimes overrun and controlled by about a half dozen "extremists" who tend to attack average "lay" people for giving opinions. If someone wants to give their opinion, why not just thank them or leave them alone? Does everyone really need to justify their opinions with hard objective data?
It's got nothing to do with "lay" people, it's all about evidence, and controlled, scientific procedures. If you come in here and say you picked A over B because you liked A better, you won't see much comment. But if you come in here and say A is better than B, then people want to know details about how the comparison was done. And of course if you start making claims/declarations contrary to a lot of measurements/evidence, then you'll get a lot of comments.
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post #243 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post
Yes both units was calibrated by Kevin Miller confirmed by Chris Boylan from Big Sound Big picture.....He gave us this info via our Facebook group. He said both was using the same 4K with HDR material side by side & Epson held it's own against it with the Sony(VPL-VW665ES)having better blacks but the Epson was brighter.
If the Sony had better blacks that puts the Epson several steps behind the JVC RS500 in that regard.
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post #244 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
It's got nothing to do with "lay" people, it's all about evidence, and controlled, scientific procedures. If you come in here and say you picked A over B because you liked A better, you won't see much comment. But if you come in here and say A is better than B, then people want to know details about how the comparison was done. And of course if you start making claims/declarations contrary to a lot of measurements/evidence, then you'll get a lot of comments.
I always value the opinion of an expert who is more knowledgeable and has better scientific basis over the average lay person. That is until they convince me they have built-in biases and agendas. This happens when they repeatedly recognize scientific evidence that only supports their claims and ignore/discredit evidence from other professional sources that disagree. They also tend to keep repeating the same talking points, just like politicians.
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post #245 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post
If the Sony had better blacks that puts the Epson several steps behind the JVC RS500 in that regard.
But what about the RS400 which is closer to the same price point?
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post #246 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by action_jackson View Post
I'm height limited and can't move my sectional, it's about 24 feet long all together. MLP is about 15ft back, and about 50 inches is as tall as I can go. I think a CIH screen would work great in my situation.


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post #247 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
But what about the RS400 which is closer to the same price point?
I believe the RS400 has almost twice the native contrast of the Sony 665 in most applications (if I'm wrong, someone correct me), so the Epson would be below that quite a bit more still.
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post #248 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post
Yes both units was calibrated by Kevin Miller confirmed by Chris Boylan from Big Sound Big picture.....He gave us this info via our Facebook group. He said both was using the same 4K with HDR material side by side & Epson held it's own against it with the Sony(VPL-VW665ES)having better blacks but the Epson was brighter.
That's very impressive especially if the Epson can do 100% of DCI as claimed with high calibrated brightness. Kevin Miller is a top calibrator, so that's encouraging. If might be a very good projector for UHD BD although I am not sure I would personally be happy with the black levels in my black pit dedicated room as I don't want to decline from my RS4810. I cannot recall, but does the 5040/6040 have a dynamic iris? Are there any impressions on how well it works?
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post #249 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
But what about the RS400 which is closer to the same price point?
The other comparison I would want is fan noise. I have a 5030 that I've enjoyed but when I ceiling mounted it the fan noise increased a good 30% or so. Not a big deal 90% of the time in normal lamp mode but there is that other 10%. Hopefully they've decreased the fan noise or at least made it so there isn't a very noticeable increase when it's ceiling mounted. When I had it table mounted it was NEVER an issue.
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post #250 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I believe the RS400 has almost twice the native contrast of the Sony 665 in most applications (if I'm wrong, someone correct me), so the Epson would be below that quite a bit more still.
two key areas to look for once cine4home does his first preview - native and D65 #'s. both would take about 20 mins with a quick greyscale cal and a good meter.

i'll take an early guess at 6K-8K unless they found a legitimate way to exceed the capabilities of their entire LCD based series to date. The DI was not great in any regard on the 5030, hopefully a change here on the new series.

also looking forward to seeing if any improvements in color uniformity which historically is more noticeable on the LCD models vs. LCOS / SXRD.


What is Sony going to do with the aging HW platform? They have to respond now, Epson and JVC will take over the 3-4K MSRP market in the fall.
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post #251 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 09:44 AM
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Opinions have little value in the absence of context and perspective.
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post #252 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
That's very impressive especially if the Epson can do 100% of DCI as claimed with high calibrated brightness. Kevin Miller is a top calibrator, so that's encouraging. If might be a very good projector for UHD BD although I am not sure I would personally be happy with the black levels in my black pit dedicated room as I don't want to decline from my RS4810. I cannot recall, but does the 5040/6040 have a dynamic iris? Are there any impressions on how well it works?


Yes they have dynamic iris.
Art, at projectorreviews said that he did not notice the dynamic iris working while watching the demo, and mentioned that they have improved from previous iterations.


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post #253 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 10:56 AM
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I don't know what the current street pricing is for the RS400 (MSRP $3999 as in $1000 higher than Epson 5040) but based on all of the positive things stated here I read a review of it at projectorreviews.com and noticed it says you have to pay extra for 3D RF and 3D glasses (not sure cost) and I do like 3D so add that onto the price for an apples to apples comparison with the Epson. There also was a comment about the PQ being somewhat soft which I found disturbing. If I recall correctly lamp replacement cost on JVCs are typically significantly higher than Epson so would want to know about that as well when comparing pricing of RS400 to 5040.
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post #254 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
two key areas to look for once cine4home does his first preview - native and D65 #'s. both would take about 20 mins with a quick greyscale cal and a good meter.
If it's a straight-forward measurement, why does it have to come from cine4home?
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post #255 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
If it's a straight-forward measurement, why does it have to come from cine4home?
as long as it's done right, it can come from anyone. Historically, the first US review sites that get the Epson's do not post contrast information. Only recently did projector central start but not sure if that will continue with the departure of Bill L. Since we're on the science forum, i'm sure some folks can understand why they want objective info vs. opinion compared to the other models.

Cine4home usually gets these previews in quick and will provide great info just like he did on the LS10K.

D65 Lumens =?
WCG Lumens =?

all good starting points since the 6040 will compete price wise with the RS400.
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post #256 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 11:27 AM
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Yeah, the replacement bulbs for the JVCs are $600 vs $300 for Epson... I go through a bulb every 18 months or so.


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post #257 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 11:31 AM
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that is the MSRP, not the street price. shop around a bit. The 2016 JVC lamps have been excellent performers so far.
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post #258 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
that is the MSRP, not the street price. shop around a bit. The 2016 JVC lamps have been excellent performers so far.


I always buy direct from Epson, that way there is no warranty issues. Maybe not the cheapest route, but they have always treated me right if I ever had a problem. I've gotten a couple of replacement bulbs outside of warranty even.


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post #259 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 12:27 PM
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I believe the RS400 has almost twice the native contrast of the Sony 665 in most applications (if I'm wrong, someone correct me), so the Epson would be below that quite a bit more still.
The JVC DLA-RS400 (X5000) was reviewed by Ekki Schmidt of Cine4home with for results:
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Im Schnitt erreicht der neue X5000 einen kalibrierten nativen Kontrast von 16000:1 der mit der Iris auf bis zu 31000:1 gesteigert werden kann. Die Streuung ist nicht unerheblich: Der geringste von uns gemessene Kontrast lag bei 13000:1, der höchste bei 19000:1, die untere Grenze ziehen wir bei „gesunden“ 14500:1

Der ANSI (Schachbrett) Kontrast hat sich in der neuen Generation nicht geändert, er liegt im Serienschnitt bei 320:1 (alle Modelle).

The Sony VW665ES (VW520ES) was reviewed by Ekki Schmidt of Cine4home with for results:
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Je nach Zoom bewegt sich der native Kontrast durchschnittlich zwischen 12,000:1 und 19000:1 (Zoom min). Hier legt der neue VW520 gegenüber seinen Vorgängern noch einmal eine Schippre drauf, Sony ist JVC auf den Fersen: Nach der Kalibrierung verbleiben davon 11000:1 bis 17,000:1, im Serienschnitt rund 13500:1. Die Untergrenze für die Cine4Home Edition ziehen wir dementsprechend bei 12500:1 kalibriert. Die adaptive Blende arbeitet je nach Modus mit einem Faktor von 10 bis 20 und sorgt in dieser Generation leider für ein störendes Bildpumpen in dunklen Bildinhalten, da die Blende bei einem gewissen Schwellenwert plötzlich schließt. Trifft man mit Testbildern (um 10IRE) diesen Schwellenwert, flackert die Blende unberechenbar (Hysterese-Effekt).

Der Schachbrett (ANSI) Kontrast beläuft sich auf 410:1
If we only look at the "Average" ON-OFF contrast result between both projector after calibration:
JVC RS400: 16000:1 // SONY VW520ES: 13500:1 --> a factor 1,18 only between the two with JVC given a very slight edge

If we only look at the ANSI contrast:
JVC RS400: 320:1 // SONY VW520ES: 410:1 --> a factor 1,28 only between the two with Sony given a very slight edge

Soulnight
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post #260 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 12:44 PM
 
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The JVC DLA-RS400 (X5000) was reviewed by Ekki Schmidt of Cine4home with for results:



The Sony VW665ES (VW520ES) was reviewed by Ekki Schmidt of Cine4home with for results:


If we only look at the "Average" ON-OFF contrast result between both projector after calibration:
JVC RS400: 16000:1 // SONY VW520ES: 13500:1 --> a factor 1,18 only between the two with JVC given a very slight edge

If we only look at the ANSI contrast:
JVC RS400: 320:1 // SONY VW520ES: 410:1 --> a factor 1,28 only between the two with Sony given a very slight edge

Soulnight
It's not really a fair comparison when you factor in the price difference. If you compare the X9000 to the 520ES, which is closer in price but the JVC still being cheaper, it's 43000:1 and 320:1 ANSI vs 13500:1 and 410:1 ANSI. By most accounts the JVC looks better with HDR due to the slightly brightness, better on/off contrast, bigger color gamut and an impressive eshift implementation paired with better lens quality over the Sony.

If you check out this site and plug the numbers in (I tend to plug in a gamma of 2.2) you'll see all but the brightest images (aka the Nurse scene) will look better in terms of intra-scene contrast on the JVC.

http://res18h39.bitballoon.com/intrascene

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post #261 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post
I don't know what the current street pricing is for the RS400 (MSRP $3999 as in $1000 higher than Epson 5040) but based on all of the positive things stated here I read a review of it at projectorreviews.com and noticed it says you have to pay extra for 3D RF and 3D glasses (not sure cost) and I do like 3D so add that onto the price for an apples to apples comparison with the Epson. There also was a comment about the PQ being somewhat soft which I found disturbing. If I recall correctly lamp replacement cost on JVCs are typically significantly higher than Epson so would want to know about that as well when comparing pricing of RS400 to 5040.
I think you have taken this out of context. They were talking about engaging E-shift and that it appeared to soften the image compared to E-shift off. The JVC projectors are known for having very sharp images, not requiring digital sharpening to provide this sharpness.
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post #262 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 12:49 PM
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It's not really a fair comparison when you factor in the price difference. If you compare the X9000 to the 520ES, which is closer in price but the JVC still being cheaper, it's 43000:1 and 320:1 ANSI vs 13500:1 and 410:1 ANSI. By most accounts the JVC looks better with HDR due to the higher brightness, better on/off contrast, bigger color gamut and an impressive eshift implementation paired with better lens quality over the Sony.
I agree.

Davidhir was comparing both the JVC DLA-RS400 and the Sony VW665ES saying that the JVC had twice the native contrast. And he stated we shoud correct him if he was wrong. I corrected him. That's all.
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post #263 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post
I don't know what the current street pricing is for the RS400 (MSRP $3999 as in $1000 higher than Epson 5040) but based on all of the positive things stated here I read a review of it at projectorreviews.com and noticed it says you have to pay extra for 3D RF and 3D glasses (not sure cost) and I do like 3D so add that onto the price for an apples to apples comparison with the Epson. There also was a comment about the PQ being somewhat soft which I found disturbing. If I recall correctly lamp replacement cost on JVCs are typically significantly higher than Epson so would want to know about that as well when comparing pricing of RS400 to 5040.
I think you have taken this out of context. They were talking about engaging E-shift and that it appeared to soften the image compared to E-shift off. The JVC projectors are known for having very sharp images, not requiring digital sharpening to provide this sharpness.
Could be, the review was really, really, really long. What about my other points?
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I agree.

Davidhir was comparing both the JVC DLA-RS400 and the Sony VW665ES saying that the JVC had twice the native contrast. And he stated we shoud correct him if he was wrong. I corrected him. That's all.
If you close down the iris on both units you do end up with with close to 2x the contrast on the JVC. But at full brightness, yes the units do come much closer in on/off contrast performance. With the iris manualy closed on both the Sony and JVC you end up with 17000:1 on the Sony vs. 31000:1 on the JVC,
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post #265 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post
Could be, the review was really, really, really long. What about my other points?
What about them? The lamp on the JVC is more expensive and the 3D items for the JVC are extra
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post #266 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 01:02 PM
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Could be, the review was really, really, really long. What about my other points?
What about them? The lamp on the JVC is more expensive and the 3D items for the JVC are extra
I was looking to find out if my suspicions were correct re: apples to apples comparison.
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post #267 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 01:03 PM
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also factor in the (limited, if any) real world differences in UHD content between the native 4K 665 vs. the considerably less expensive base JVC, that is going to potentially put the Sony that much further behind if the even less expensive 5040 can compete with UHD content

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/175443
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post #268 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 01:53 PM
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In work.

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post #269 of 752 Old 06-25-2016, 04:50 PM
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I wonder why they don't add one more LCD into the projector, just for contrast. They could put it between the prism and the lens, and it would act like local dimming on an LED back lit television.


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post #270 of 752 Old 06-26-2016, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If you close down the iris on both units you do end up with with close to 2x the contrast on the JVC. But at full brightness, yes the units do come much closer in on/off contrast performance. With the iris manualy closed on both the Sony and JVC you end up with 17000:1 on the Sony vs. 31000:1 on the JVC,
Hello Seegs.

It seems you misunderstood Ekki's german.

Here is what Ekki wrote about the contrast of the Sony WV520ES translated to english:

Quote:
Depending on the zoom the native contrast varies on average between 12000:1 and 19000:1 (zoom min). This means that the new VW520 has a clearly improved performance compared to its predecessors, actually it is close on JVC’s heels: 11000:1 to 17000:1 remain after calibration, on average about 13500:1. We draw the lower limit for the Cine4Home Edition at 12500:1 calibrated.
Original in german:
Quote:
Je nach Zoom bewegt sich der native Kontrast durchschnittlich zwischen 12,000:1 und 19000:1 (Zoom min). Hier legt der neue VW520 gegenüber seinen Vorgängern noch einmal eine Schippre drauf, Sony ist JVC auf den Fersen: Nach der Kalibrierung verbleiben davon 11000:1 bis 17,000:1, im Serienschnitt rund 13500:1. Die Untergrenze für die Cine4Home Edition ziehen wir dementsprechend bei 12500:1 kalibriert.
As you can read, 17000:1 is the on-off contrast with minimal zoom (calibrated). In fact Ekki does not give the number with manual iris closed for the Sony VW520ES. You can expect a much higher number when closing the iris additionally. (I personally measured on my test unit: 25000:1 with zoom min, iris fully closed).
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