Epson 6040UB vs. Sony VPL-VW665ES Demo at CE Week 2016 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 262 Old 06-30-2016, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Epson 6040UB vs. Sony VPL-VW665ES Demo at CE Week 2016

With the advent of Ultra HD Blu-ray and streaming UHD/4K HDR content, 2016 presents an exciting new media landscape for AV enthusiasts. Finally, it is possible to get content in your home that meets or exceeds the quality seen in commercial cinemas. At CE Week 2016, Epson unveiled four new projectors that can display HDR, DCI/P3 color, and can put 4 million pixels' worth of detail up on the screen.

Last week I saw a demo of Epson's 6040UB ($4000) at CE Week. The company was comparing it to a Sony VPL-VW665ES ($15,000) "true 4K" HDR projector. The idea was to demonstrate that the Epson was able to project a brighter image than the Sony without any noticeable sacrifice in detail rendition.

The projectors were set up side-by-side and calibrated for DCI/P3 color at maximum output. The screen was a Da-Lite Corp HD Progressive with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. It measured 138" (diagonal) and featured an off white/light gray surface with 0.9 gain. Switching between the projectors was accomplished by physically blocking and unblocking the lenses with a piece of cardboard. Sources for the demo included a Redray player as well as a Samsung UBD‑K8500 Ultra HD Blu-ray player.


The sources for the demo included a Redray player and a Samsung Ultra HD Blu-ray player.

The Epson 6040UB was notably brighter than the Sony 665ES. As Epson promised, scenes from the Ultra HD Blu-ray of Kingsmen: The Secret Service looked as sharp as they did on the Sony. This is despite the fact that the Epson only puts half as many pixels on screen: 4 million vs. 8 million. Epson's pixel-shift "4K enhancement" may not be "true 4K" but it's enough to render crystal-clear images from a normal viewing distance.


Kingsmen looked excellent on the Epson 6040UB; the image was crisp, punchy, and realistic.

I only saw one notable artifact during the demo. In some scenes, the extreme highlights—clouds seen through a window—exhibited a bit of banding. Aside from that, one distraction, what I saw coming from the Epson was pretty close to picture-perfect. You couldn't quite say the same thing for the Sony, it lacked the pop provided by the Epson's extra lumens. Indeed, it looked downright dull in comparison. Factoring in the cost differential, Epson has a pretty good point about the price-performance ratio its new projection products offer.

While I would have liked to see a resolution test pattern as part of the demo, the subjective experience indicated Epson has created some compelling new projectors, albeit lamp-based. The price of enjoying Ultra HD Blu-ray on a massive screen is now in the same realm as a high-end 65" TV, which is great news for cinephiles.

I spoke to Kevin Miller, who calibrated both projectors, and he indicated the Epson was roughly 40 to 50% brighter than the Sony when displaying DCI/P3 content. That light output turned out to be perfect for illuminating the screen used in the demo. Check out the following video, after Epson America senior product manager Rodrigo Catalan makes his pitch, I ask him about the impact of calibration on spec'd light output. He indicated it met spec (2500 lumens) operating in the BT.709/sRGB color space, but in DCI/P3 it lost a bit of output.

Rodrigo Catalan, Epson America senior product manager talks about the new projectors.

Unfortunately, nobody had hard numbers available regarding any of these projector's peak luminance in HDR DCI/P3 mode. However, Kevin indicated that much more detailed post-calibration information will be available by the time CEDIA rolls around this September 13-17.


The two projectors, side-by-side in an A/B demo.

For more information about the capabilities of Epson's latest home theater projectors, check out Scott Wilkinson's post here. Also, if you have any experience with the CE week demo, I'd love to read about that in the comments. I'm sure everybody here is anxious to find out more about the performance of these exciting new products, which is why I've requested a review unit of the 6040UB.

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Last edited by imagic; 06-30-2016 at 10:15 AM.
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post #2 of 262 Old 06-30-2016, 10:06 AM
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Like the gold trim around the 6040ub. Close up it looks like a matt gold , but from a distance it resembles Sonys projectors.
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nice article. Now I can't wait to hear what these "Used Car" Sony Sales idiots are going to say about this

looks like this Epson 6040 kicks Sony ass; consider you can buy 3-4 of these for the price of 1 Sony

Who the hell would want the Sony ?

same comparison with the JVC RS400, which also kicks Sony and you can buy 4 of those for the price of the Sony

in Canada, most all dealers are pushing Sony since it has huge profit margins
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post #4 of 262 Old 06-30-2016, 10:08 AM
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Im still waiting on the throw ratio information for these projectors, I need something close to Short Throw for my situation, or around 1.6 like the BenQ w1500 and w1070. ^^;;

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How did the contrast compare to the Sony? Did you compare any images with brightness matched?
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post #6 of 262 Old 06-30-2016, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
@imagic
How did the contrast compare to the Sony? Did you compare any images with brightness matched?
No, the demo was purportedly at the peak DCI/P3 calibrated brightness for the two projectors. I can't speak to how they'd compare in pure contrast with equal brightness.

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
No, the demo was purportedly at the peak DCI/P3 calibrated brightness for the two projectors. I can't speak to how they'd compare in pure contrast with equal brightness.
Thanks for the report. Cedia is going to be exciting this year !
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Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post
Im still waiting on the throw ratio information for these projectors, I need something close to Short Throw for my situation, or around 1.6 like the BenQ w1500 and w1070. ^^;;
I would expect the throw to be the same as the 5030. Would be shocked if it was much different. It will not be short throw.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
No, the demo was purportedly at the peak DCI/P3 calibrated brightness for the two projectors. I can't speak to how they'd compare in pure contrast with equal brightness.
Having the Epson brighter gives it a decided advantage when picking which is favored. Would have loved for them to also show them brightness matched.
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No, the demo was purportedly at the peak DCI/P3 calibrated brightness for the two projectors. I can't speak to how they'd compare in pure contrast with equal brightness.
The 665ES cannot achieve P3 so this comparison was odd to do. If I remember correctly it's can only achieve 10% past REC709 or 85% of P3. REC709 is 75% of P3.
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Having the Epson brighter gives it a decided advantage when picking which is favored. Would have loved for them to also show them brightness matched.
No question. And in the context of that demo I believe the goal must have been to show the Epson in a way that demonstrated a maximum advantage.

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post #12 of 262 Old 06-30-2016, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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The 665ES cannot achieve P3 so this comparison was odd to do. If I remember correctly it's can only achieve 10% past REC709 or 85% of P3. REC709 is 75% of P3.
Well, I think the idea is in HDR mode and when playing an Ultra HD Blu-ray it's using material that's mastered to the DCI-P3 color space, yes? So that's what you'd aim for?

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Well, I think the idea is in HDR mode and when playing an Ultra HD Blu-ray it's using material that's mastered to the DCI-P3 color space, yes? So that's what you'd aim for?
The content is mastered with REC2020 color points. But you have the right idea in that DCI Digital Intermediates are mastered for P3 currently. This means that, more than likely, the saturation of the REC2020 points doesn't go out past P3. The REC2020 compatibility mode on the 665ES and 5040 will take those REC2020 color points and truncate them to each respective projector's largest color gamut. We'll have to wait for a pro-reviewer to show us how big of a gamut the 5040 can do. It claims full P3, but typically 98%-99% is only achievable as seen with the JVCs. I remain skeptical that the lumen output difference was THAT large. Not because the 5040 isn't as bright calibrated as you saw at the CE week demo, but because manufacturers are notorious for setting up the other projector in comparisons like this in a less-than-ideal mode or have incorrectly setup the projector for as many lumens as possible. I'm hopeful this new unit performs well, but it does need to boost it's overall performance a lot if it wants to compete with the JVC DLA-RS400 which streets for $200-$300 more. I will wait until someone like Kris Deering or Cine4home gets their hands on one before I 100% trust anything.
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
TI remain skeptical that the lumen output difference was THAT large. Not because the 5040 isn't as bright calibrated as you saw at the CE week demo, but because manufacturers are notorious for setting up the other projector in comparisons like this in a less-than-ideal mode or have incorrectly setup the projector for as many lumens as possible. I'm hopeful this new unit performs well, but it does need to boost it's overall performance a lot if it wants to compete with the JVC DLA-RS400 which streets for $200-$300 more. I will wait until someone like Kris Deering or Cine4home gets their hands on one before I 100% trust anything.
Both projectors were calibrated by Kevin Miller. So unless you believe he's in Epson's pocket (or incompetent, or easily duped), these numbers should be legitimate.

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Mark how is the fan noise compared to the sony?
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Both projectors were calibrated by Kevin Miller. So unless you believe he's in Epson's pocket (or incompetent, or easily duped), there numbers should be legitimate.
Where are the numbers posted?
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I would expect the throw to be the same as the 5030. Would be shocked if it was much different. It will not be short throw.
Yeah it feels like BenQ and Optoma are the two companies that do near short throw lenes and short throw lens options with their projector line, so I guess I will just have to hold tight for them to start talking about their upcoming projectors.

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Where are the numbers posted?
I guess the numbers must be this quote from Imagic's original post: "I spoke to Kevin Miller, who calibrated both projectors, and he indicated the Epson was roughly 40 to 50% brighter than the Sony when displaying DCI/P3 content."

In other words, just add this rough estimate to the known lumen output of the Sony showing DCI/P3 content, and you'll probably be in the ballpark. That it seemed much brighter and the picture had significantly more "pop" in a direct comparison really does sound promising.

That fully UHD compatible projectors are dropping down in price is really great.
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No question. And in the context of that demo I believe the goal must have been to show the Epson in a way that demonstrated a maximum advantage.
Any time frame was giving when these will be available for sale ?

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Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
I guess the numbers must be this quote from Imagic's original post: "I spoke to Kevin Miller, who calibrated both projectors, and he indicated the Epson was roughly 40 to 50% brighter than the Sony when displaying DCI/P3 content."

In other words, just add this rough estimate to the known lumen output of the Sony showing DCI/P3 content, and you'll probably be in the ballpark.
It's probably more than 700 lumens which is what the naysayers were speculating based on the 5030's brightness.
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Where are the numbers posted?
I was responding to your suspicions that the quoted lumen output difference was rigged by Epson (a reasonable assumption) to show their projector in the most favorable light. As Mark states in his post:

Quote:
I spoke to Kevin Miller, who calibrated both projectors, and he indicated the Epson was roughly 40 to 50% brighter than the Sony when displaying DCI/P3 content.
EDIT: I see that @kohe321 already beat me to it.

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
No question. And in the context of that demo I believe the goal must have been to show the Epson in a way that demonstrated a maximum advantage.
I don't blame them. It is not their goal to help make their competition look better.
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Mark how is the fan noise compared to the sony?
I'd be really interested in this as well. I'm assuming to get HDR to work, you have to run it in high lamp mode. My 5025 is quite loud in that mode. Hopefully the new chassis dampens the noise significantly. Also the noise of the iris, which is more distracting than the fan.
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Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
I guess the numbers must be this quote from Imagic's original post: "I spoke to Kevin Miller, who calibrated both projectors, and he indicated the Epson was roughly 40 to 50% brighter than the Sony when displaying DCI/P3 content."

In other words, just add this rough estimate to the known lumen output of the Sony showing DCI/P3 content, and you'll probably be in the ballpark. That it seemed much brighter and the picture had significantly more "pop" in a direct comparison really does sound promising.

That fully UHD compatible projectors are dropping down in price is really great.
Right and my point was that because you can't calibrate both the same standard (ie P3) the numbers aren't fully comparable. I'm still waiting for graphs showing calibration deltas and lumen output from either Kris or cine4home. Was it just a greyscale calibration or was a full P3 color gamut calibration done as well?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
I guess the numbers must be this quote from Imagic's original post: "I spoke to Kevin Miller, who calibrated both projectors, and he indicated the Epson was roughly 40 to 50% brighter than the Sony when displaying DCI/P3 content."

In other words, just add this rough estimate to the known lumen output of the Sony showing DCI/P3 content, and you'll probably be in the ballpark. That it seemed much brighter and the picture had significantly more "pop" in a direct comparison really does sound promising.

That fully UHD compatible projectors are dropping down in price is really great.
And here is what does not make sense. The VW665 does not have a P3 filter, so it is not losing lumens when playing UHD BD. Max lumens should be around 1,500 calibrated lumens at short throw. A 40% increase would mean 2,100 lumens. A 50% increase would mean 2,250 lumens. Note with the Epson the DCI P3 filter was in place. The minimum loss that I have seen from any lamp based projector with DCI P3 filter in place is 18/19%. So that means the Epson has to be able to put out 2,560 to 2,750 calibrated lumens. That is more lumens than spec. It will be interesting to see actual test results.
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
And here is what does not make sense. The VW665 does not have a P3 filter, so it is not losing lumens when playing UHD BD. Max lumens should be around 1,500 calibrated lumens at short throw. A 40% increase would mean 2,100 lumens. A 50% increase would mean 2,250 lumens. Note with the Epson the DCI P3 filter was in place. The minimum loss that I have seen from any lamp based projector with DCI P3 filter in place is 18/19%. So that means the Epson has to be able to put out 2,560 to 2,750 calibrated lumens. That is more lumens than spec. It will be interesting to see actual test results.
I thought the norm for comparing calibrated lumens was at mid-zoom. According to posts in the 665 thread, its calibrated mid-zoom max output is 1000-1100 lumens. Taking the high number and adding 50% plus another 20% for P3 deration, then the 5040's max rec709 output should be around 2000 lumens.

Let me ask a simpler way. Are you still standing by your prediction of 700 lumens max calibrated brightness for the 5040 based on what 8030 did?
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I'm sure everybody here is anxious to find out more about the performance of these exciting new products, which is why I've requested a review unit of the 6040UB.
In your review can you please check if 1080p / 120hz input is supported, and if HDR can also work at 1080p.

(I don't see why not but hey, worth knowing 100% for sure before I plonk down the price of a used car for this).

Thanks!
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
I thought the norm for comparing calibrated lumens was at mid-zoom. According to posts in the 665 thread, its calibrated mid-zoom max output is 1000-1100 lumens. Taking the high number and adding 50% plus another 20% for P3 deration, then the 5040's max rec709 output should be around 2000 lumens.

Let me ask a simpler way. Are you still standing by your prediction of 700 lumens max calibrated brightness for the 5040 based on what 8030 did?
The 2,500 lumen spec is at short throw. Just like all projector manufacturer's, they list the max the projector can do. So you do not handicap the calculation by going to mid throw, if trying to figure out max lumens. Show me where I made the prediction of 700 calibrated lumens? I said the 5030 had around 700 calibrated lumens and I do not think the 5040 will have nearly three times that many calibrated lumens. I am talking calibrated to REC709. Calibrating to DCI will be less lumens. Not talking about calibrating in living room mode, giving up some color accuracy for lumens.
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post #29 of 262 Old 06-30-2016, 03:07 PM
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The Sony projector had 1,500 hrs. on the bulb, no wonder the Epson looked brighter!
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
The Sony projector had 1,500 hrs. on the bulb, no wonder the Epson looked brighter!
If that's true, it wasn't quite an apples to apples comparison. Always best to wait for someone without a personal stake in the results to do some testing and report back.
Tom Bley and joerod like this.
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