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post #1 of 141 Old 07-11-2016, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Ti single chip dlp 4k projectors

Hi:


Does anyone know when any manufacturer will be releasing a 4K projector using TI's new 4K chip?


Optoma showed the projector in the link below at CES 2016.




TI also had a booth and had a "demo" unit using their new chip set.




To check most of the boxes for me a 4K projector would:


4K SINGLE CHIP DLP with a LED light source.


Could also do HDR10 and Dolby Vision.


Hopefully cost no more the $ 7,500.00


Presently using a Marantz 15S-1 DLP and still love the picture.


Hopefully there will be a few choices in the near future with projectors using the new chipset from Texas Instruments.
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post #2 of 141 Old 07-11-2016, 11:41 AM
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I think Scott Wikinson was talking about the problems with dlp and 4k on his last podcast of Home Theater Geeks, I don't think that single chip dlp can keep up, I can't remember if it was hdr or expanded color that was the problem.

https://twit.tv/shows/home-theater-g...utostart=false

https://www.avsforum.com/calibrating-hdr/

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post #3 of 141 Old 07-11-2016, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregoryperkins View Post
I think Scott Wikinson was talking about the problems with dlp and 4k on his last podcast of Home Theater Geeks, I don't think that single chip dlp can keep up, I can't remember if it was hdr or expanded color that was the problem.
How does he know that if there are no projectors on the market right now using this new 4K chipset?


My Marantz single chip DLP 1080P sure can keep up!
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post #4 of 141 Old 07-11-2016, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC57 View Post
How does he know that if there are no projectors on the market right now using this new 4K chipset?


My Marantz single chip DLP 1080P sure can keep up!
At Christmas I gave my single chip 1080P Marantz to my brother, because the Marantz could not keep up with my JVC.
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post #5 of 141 Old 07-11-2016, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC57 View Post
How does he know that if there are no projectors on the market right now using this new 4K chipset?


My Marantz single chip DLP 1080P sure can keep up!
Watch or listen to the show and find out, it's a very well done show, not just this episode. I think it had something to do with the mechanics of the micro mirrors and they just weren't fast enough for the increased amount of data. I'm not saying it's not solvable. They are the experts not me.

I also have a 1080p sc dlp and love it, but even without hdr or increased color gamut, there's 4x more pixels.

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post #6 of 141 Old 07-11-2016, 01:41 PM
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The big problem is contrast IMO. I've got a Planar 8150, which is darn near the pinnacle of what's possible from DLP (about 15,000:1 dynamic), and a JVC RS4910. The JVC's native contrast is about double the Planar's dynamic contrast, and with the JVC's DI it's really no contest in dark scenes.

DLP would have to do something pretty massive with their contrast performance to be relevant again, IMO.
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post #7 of 141 Old 07-11-2016, 01:50 PM
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Just put 2 chips in a row, then DLP would be back in (contrast) business. Unfortunately it seems nobody in the consumer world is ever gonna do this, for reasons unknown to me.
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post #8 of 141 Old 07-11-2016, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Just put 2 chips in a row, then DLP would be back in (contrast) business. Unfortunately it seems nobody in the consumer world is ever gonna do this, for reasons unknown to me.
I think it costs to much in light output.

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post #9 of 141 Old 07-12-2016, 12:51 AM
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Not sure how much lumens an additional DLP chip would cost. It's mirrors, after all, shouldn't cost all that much? Maybe 30%?

Would you rather have 30% more lumens or 2000+ times (20,000,000:1+ instead of 10,000:1) more native contrast?
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post #10 of 141 Old 07-12-2016, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC57 View Post
Hi:


Does anyone know when any manufacturer will be releasing a 4K projector using TI's new 4K chip
I believe BenQ and Optoma will have their offerings availiable late this year and Acer(!) will bring one out early 2017.

Can hardly wait to see that HLD lightsource in a retail model.
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post #11 of 141 Old 07-12-2016, 11:05 AM
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Proof will be in the pudding...a number of 4K DLP iterations from TI partners will be shown at CEDIA....some, no doubt, with entry-level optics and prices; others with more costly executions. All the theoretical speculations that have been bandied about in this forum will then (hopefully) be put to rest.
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post #12 of 141 Old 07-12-2016, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
The big problem is contrast IMO. I've got a Planar 8150, which is darn near the pinnacle of what's possible from DLP (about 15,000:1 dynamic), and a JVC RS4910. The JVC's native contrast is about double the Planar's dynamic contrast, and with the JVC's DI it's really no contest in dark scenes.

DLP would have to do something pretty massive with their contrast performance to be relevant again, IMO.
I got about the same dynamic contrast with my Sim Lumis Host. Threw a nice picture, but the black levels on my RS600 just take so many scenes to a whole new level. I've finally gone to the " dark side ". Hard to give up really good contrast levels at this point. but, we will see what they've come up with - should be interesting no matter what !

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post #13 of 141 Old 07-12-2016, 12:50 PM
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Does anyone know why Sony, JVC, and Epson don't currently use Texas Instrument DLP chips?

The fact that worries me is that BenQ and other cheap DLP makers might enter 4k into the sub $5,000 which will most likely damage 3LCD and LCoS sales.
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post #14 of 141 Old 07-12-2016, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Saber008 View Post
Does anyone know why Sony, JVC, and Epson don't currently use Texas Instrument DLP chips?
Because they have their own chips, why would they use someone else's?

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The fact that worries me is that BenQ and other cheap DLP makers might enter 4k into the sub $5,000 which will most likely damage 3LCD and LCoS sales.
How so? And even if it does, so what? If BenQ can outsell Epson, what's the problem, it just means they've build a machine that people like better, which will drive Epson and the lot to improve their products. Competition is good.

A far worse outcome, IMO, is if these "4K" DLP machines come out at $5-10k and have overall performance (brightness, contrast, etc) similar to their $1-2k 1080p counterparts. That would be a disaster, we need some more competition in the projector market, and ideally not just everyone sticking to their one trick pony feature. JVC's got their black level, Sony's got their native 4K panels, Epson's got the just above budget segment, and there's a slew of DLPs for cheap.

We really need a high contrast (native and ANSI) projector with a good lens (sharpness/pop) and low input lag to motivate JVC to fix that issue. And we need something to motivate Sony to put good lenses on their machines and not price-gouge the US. And we need someone to force Epson to up their game a bit with LCD-R and Laser.

Maybe, 4K DLP can do that, it would make my day if it does, because my Planar 8150 is still my favorite projector, even if it's not the PQ king anymore (somewhat weak black level). But that would take a sort of revolutionary improvement, and like with the LCD Epsons, I just don't see any evidence to actually give me that hope.
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post #15 of 141 Old 07-12-2016, 01:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saber008 View Post
Does anyone know why Sony, JVC, and Epson don't currently use Texas Instrument DLP chips?

The fact that worries me is that BenQ and other cheap DLP makers might enter 4k into the sub $5,000 which will most likely damage 3LCD and LCoS sales.
They each manufacture their own respective display technology. Sony, JVC and Epson have SXRD, DiLA and 3LCD/R-LCD respectively. It costs them less to manufacture their own panels. It also frees them from being forced to use DLP driver chipsets and doesn't place any restrictions on how they can design light engines or how they can use their own panels via hardware/software. TI places strict regulations on how these manufacturers can use their DMDs in both software and hardware. They also charge a premium on the DMD itself. It would simply cost more for these manufacturers to base their projector around DLP because TI would force them to use not just a DMD, but a TI branded driver chipset, software and a few other things. And as such these extra fees would be put on us, the consumers. It's a lose, lose situation.

With that said, I don't think it's going to hurt sales much. Those who are well informed know enough that DLPs greatest weakness is in contrast and currently the difference in contrast between it and the current offerings from the aforementioned competing technologies is up a 2000% difference. We're also seeing these competing technologies reach ~2000 lumens of light output and I expect that to increase as well as contrast performance. In terms of raw image quality TI is not going to be able to compete with these competing technologies unless they make some earth shattering changes and as such most people looking to make a projector purchase in the $3000+ market will not be buying a DLP projector. As much as I loved a DLP image, they've really started to fall behind significantly in the 3-5 years in terms of raw image quality in the $3000+ projector market. It's going to become increasingly difficult to persuade people to go with a DLP projector without some serious changes in contrast performance.

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post #16 of 141 Old 07-12-2016, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saber008 View Post
Does anyone know why Sony, JVC, and Epson don't currently use Texas Instrument DLP chips?

The fact that worries me is that BenQ and other cheap DLP makers might enter 4k into the sub $5,000 which will most likely damage 3LCD and LCoS sales.
There are enough people that see the " rainbow effect " with single chip DLP's with color wheels, to ever put 3 chip projector manufacturers like Sony, Epson and JVC out of business. Every technology has it's strengths and weaknesses.
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post #17 of 141 Old 07-13-2016, 09:43 AM
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RE is often less noticeable now, but so little chip for 4K resolution, I think it will not be so sharp than current 2K, and optics will have to be something else than most of plastic crap out there.
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post #18 of 141 Old 07-13-2016, 01:22 PM
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RE is often less noticeable now, but so little chip for 4K resolution, I think it will not be so sharp than current 2K, and optics will have to be something else than most of plastic crap out there.
I generally don't see RE myself. But some people sure do !
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post #19 of 141 Old 07-13-2016, 09:07 PM
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5K lumen chipset means no real HDR unless they are put in series, correct?
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post #20 of 141 Old 07-22-2016, 06:27 PM
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RE is often less noticeable now, but so little chip for 4K resolution, I think it will not be so sharp than current 2K, and optics will have to be something else than most of plastic crap out there.
I got to watch a lunch and learn at work (TI) on this projector chipset. It is going to be very interesting. They stressed that the technique they are using to create the spatial resolution doesn't require high end optics at all.

I wasn't all that hopeful for low cost projectors but I have a feeling within a year or so we will. Or maybe sooner, depends on what the OEMs (Benq/Optoma/Acer) decide to do.
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post #21 of 141 Old 07-23-2016, 06:47 AM
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Oh, I wouldn't be worried about the cost, it's a 0.65" DMD, and there are lots of cheap projectors with 0.65" DMDs already. My "worry" is that cheap DLPs just never perform that well and I don't expect a new DMD to change that. Further I don't really have any hope that there will be some contrast breakthrough (there's been no mention) that would allow projectors based on these DMDs to compete at the higher end.

TI didn't happen to talk about sequential ("native", not ANSI) contrast at all did they?
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post #22 of 141 Old 07-23-2016, 07:42 AM
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Stacked DMDs would compete.
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post #23 of 141 Old 07-23-2016, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by joepaiii View Post
I got to watch a lunch and learn at work (TI) on this projector chipset. It is going to be very interesting. They stressed that the technique they are using to create the spatial resolution doesn't require high end optics at all. ...
Did TI show the pixel configuration? Overlap? 45 degree rotation?
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post #24 of 141 Old 07-23-2016, 12:34 PM
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Oh, I wouldn't be worried about the cost, it's a 0.65" DMD, and there are lots of cheap projectors with 0.65" DMDs already. My "worry" is that cheap DLPs just never perform that well and I don't expect a new DMD to change that. Further I don't really have any hope that there will be some contrast breakthrough (there's been no mention) that would allow projectors based on these DMDs to compete at the higher end.

TI didn't happen to talk about sequential ("native", not ANSI) contrast at all did they?
No they didn't talk about that. They do believe that their ANSI contrast is more than competitive.
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post #25 of 141 Old 07-23-2016, 12:38 PM
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Did TI show the pixel configuration? Overlap? 45 degree rotation?
They did but it was all under NDA so I don't think I can say.

The clarity is prettying amazing. I didn't see video they mainly focused on the actual ability to render 4K images and all the secret sauce behind it. I am really excited to see this stuff hit the market.
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post #26 of 141 Old 07-23-2016, 12:44 PM
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They did but it was all under NDA so I don't think I can say.
Thanks! I suspected there might have been an NDA. We'll just have to wait a bit more for the details.
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post #27 of 141 Old 07-24-2016, 09:52 AM
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No they didn't talk about that. They do believe that their ANSI contrast is more than competitive.
I'm sure it is, ANSI isn't the problem, it's sequential/native contrast (despite whatever TI marketing wants to say).
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post #28 of 141 Old 07-24-2016, 02:56 PM
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I'm sure it is, ANSI isn't the problem, it's sequential/native contrast (despite whatever TI marketing wants to say).
Problem in what way? If you are looking for fade to black or black level floor? I would think ANSI is the truest measurement of contrast in a display device.
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post #29 of 141 Old 07-24-2016, 02:58 PM
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You might want to read this.
http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13...06-part-1.html

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post #30 of 141 Old 07-24-2016, 03:21 PM
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Problem in what way? If you are looking for fade to black or black level floor? I would think ANSI is the truest measurement of contrast in a display device.
Here we go again..............

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