JVC 4k Native Laser projector (confirm) - Page 118 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3511 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 09:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
No, I don't think so. All a mechanical iris does is close the aperture letting less light through. The light remains calibrated exactly the same.

But dimming the laser is a completely different method of control, because it involves changing the quantity of light, and we can measure the difference.



Yes, if signal manipulation is occurring, then we can expect to see potential changes in greyscale/gamma.

The Sony 1000 in high DI clearly altered the gamma curve, but greyscale, as far as I was aware, was unaffected.



You may be right. The Sonys are known to have noise reduction on them. It could be that the higher Darbee setting was helping to "punch through" that.

The MPC option on the Z1 seems to be a very subtle form of Darbee. I'm still playing around trying to find a "sweet spot".
Closing down the mechanical/manual iris on Sony (haven´t calibrated a Sony Laser yet), JVC (both Laser and UHP) ans Epson (both Laser and UHP) projectors does alter the grayscale. And I always calibrate the different iris positions if the user has multi positions like a 2.35:1 setup.

Actually if I am not mistaken the zoom also alters the grayscale, but I am not 100% sure. Need to measure that the next time I calibrate...
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post #3512 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Kris,

Have you seen this effect in the Sony or Epson lasers?
The LS didn't seem to do this, or was it the laser mode that didn't affect greyscale?

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post #3513 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 04:36 PM
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Arrow

I took the opportunity to send some feedback to JVC locally the other day. I essentially made mention of the issues discussed here to date, the contrast performance(both Native CR and on/off) along with inability to match motion sharpness (or lack of) vs RS600/620, the 40% light loss under P3 filter operation, laser dimming being inconsistent (mode 2 more problematic) especially when compared to the VW5000, and last but definitely not least operating fan noise levels. I also was able to cite both @ArrowAV and his experience being a dealer and rejecting their unit and also Ekki's @Cine4Home experience as a well regarded German projector tech.
What came back from JVC was they were grateful for the feedback and will send my comments to the factory for response. JVC also mentioned the other unit that arrived locally is currently being tested and calibrated by techs from a post production house in Sydney, they are a branch of UK company apparently. They will apparently have some feedback by Friday next week that will be also shared with me - along time to have the unit all up. JVC also said they hadn't heard about the UK situ with ArrowAV but know the Pro Div JVC counterparts there and will definitely follow it up- I'm sure they will be enlightened pretty quickly about what happened there. Net result is the local JVC rep is really surprised to hear of all the issues and promises to get back to me on it asap.

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post #3514 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 05:27 PM
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I'm suspect of the end results of Arrow's calibration based on the measurements I've taken here and what Ekki had reported. Ekki's numbers seem to coincide with mine and are what I would have expected given the specs that JVC claims. I've said in the past that the noise levels will definitely be a subjective matter from install to install but with my current position in the room they are much easier to ignore in normal use, but I definitely feel they need improvement. This is more the case because the low lamp mode of the rest of their line is nearly silent, as are models from Sony and Epson. I haven't had any experience with the 5000ES personally other than shows so I am not sure what the sound level is for that beast. I know I've had plenty of other projectors that are far louder (especially DLP units with color wheel whine) and laser units that were considerably louder (the EEcolor guys). I am curious about the comments when it comes to the dynamic laser. It certainly isn't completely transparent in operation but having watched at least 10-15 movies on this projector now I can't say that it has ever been an issue and I've been using Mode 2 the whole time. It is VERY rare that I notice it and even when I do it is such a quick flicker it barely registered. It is easy to spot though since it effects brighter images more than dark ones and our eyes are sensitive to that, but I typically see it on scene changes if anything. Definitely not as intrusive as dynamic iris systems I've seen and their adverse effects on gamma. But again, I think this will all come down to the end user.

The BT.2020 filter is a shame though, especially since I see such a tiny drop in output with the filter on my X750 (I typically lose 1 fL). It definitely takes a toll on the light output and makes it hard to have a bright image on a large screen and still retain the full color spectrum of P3 within a 2020 container. The HDR color profile is decent but you definitely lose saturation in red, which stands out in a lot of titles available on UHD Blu. How much you'll notice will probably depend on how much you compare though.

Things I'd like to see on its successor: quieter operation, higher native contrast, less light loss with filter, dual aperture system, more refinement in laser dimming, more light output. But with actual viewing of content it is really hard to find a lot of things to complain about. The image with both 1080p and 4K just looks fantastic.
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post #3515 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
The LS didn't seem to do this, or was it the laser mode that didn't affect greyscale?
That's what I'm curious about - does the dynamic laser alter greyscale when it's working.

It looks like a manual iris in the lens does, as does a DI, but DL appears to have less of a problem. Not that I can say I've noticed any real issues like that with Sony or JVC DIs in the past tbh, just things like pumping on credits for example which is a different artefact.

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post #3516 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 06:05 PM
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Even if it did I can't see it on screen. Dynamic systems always alter something, but we rarely see anything like color shift or grayscale errors large enough to hurt the image. Gamma shifts can be bad because they typically mean they are boosting levels into clipping (you'll see this with most dynamic iris systems with difficult scenes, I tested the 4500 with a few that ALWAYS trip dynamic irises and didn't see ANY issues). Certainly nothing I think anyone needs to be overly concerned about by any means.
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post #3517 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 06:12 PM
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Thanks Kris,

I remember Greg Rogers mentioning brightness compression with the first Sony DI and showing pics of the storm troopers in the blockade runner from Star Wars as an example.

Can you say what those torture test scenes are that you use?

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post #3518 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 06:33 PM
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I use the interrogation scene from The International and the scene with Tom Cruise and Morgan Freeman talking in Oblivion a lot. Both are quite good at showing issues with dynamic systems.
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post #3519 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 06:39 PM
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Full frame uniform dimming is a band aid for not having enough native contrast at the required peak brightness. I doubt anyone would use a DI/laser dimming, if they the had the maximum native contrast at their desired maximum brightness. Except for full fade to black.

Now implement a FALD system with 300+ zones and independent dynamic dimming of each of those zones would be most welcome.

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post #3520 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 06:49 PM
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post #3521 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Full frame uniform dimming is a band aid for not having enough native contrast at the required peak brightness. I doubt anyone would use a DI/laser dimming, if they the had the maximum native contrast at their desired maximum brightness. Except for full fade to black.

Now implement a FALD system with 300+ zones and independent dynamic dimming of each of those zones would be most welcome.
I wouldn't give a damn how it achieves the desired contrast as long as it does.
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post #3522 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 07:16 PM
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I wouldn't give a damn how it achieves the desired contrast as long as it does.
Unfortunately a DI or Dynamic laser does nothing(much)at all for an individual frames actual contrast, open/max it up and the peak whites will be displayed, as well as the appropriate ratio of black level, close/minimize it and the brightness gets compressed and black levels get deeper. Gamma manipulation helps but it's not ideal.

Remember JVC touting the native contrast of their projectors and avoided using a dynamic iris?....till other manufacturers started claiming higher contrast than JVC did and they were forced to implement a DI solution. They still avoided calling it a DI for quite a while!

But I guess if the eye perceives an 'improvement' to the image then that's what counts.

FALD brought to projection will see the end of full frame uniform dynamic dimming, except for full fade to black and back again.

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post #3523 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

But I guess if the eye perceives an 'improvement' to the image then that's what counts.
I am on that opinion, as long as it's convincing what does it matter how it's done unless it's detrimental in some way.

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post #3524 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 11:01 PM
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I am on that opinion, as long as it's convincing what does it matter how it's done unless it's detrimental in some way.
Agree!.......unfortunately with a DI or Laser dimming there is a trade off...the top end or the bottom end, depending on the orifice size

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post #3525 of 5254 Old 02-02-2017, 11:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
The LS didn't seem to do this, or was it the laser mode that didn't affect greyscale?
I calibrated a LS10500 a couple of weeks ago and it (manual iris) certainly did, what I also found out with it was that the menu affected the measurements no matter where I put it on the screen. So I had to take that into consideration when adjusting both grayscale and colorspace, this is not the case with the TW9300.

I never measured with laser mode on.
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post #3526 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 02:51 AM
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Thanks Kris,

Funnily enough, I was watching that scene just recently with the Epson and didn't notice anything going on - not that I was watching critically as I was just testing out a few things but I'll have another watch and see if anything obvious is going on.

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post #3527 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 02:53 AM
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Agree!.......unfortunately with a DI or Laser dimming there is a trade off...the top end or the bottom end, depending on the orifice size
Sometimes a DI can allocate more contrast to a scene than a pj without one - for example, if a scene uses just 10% from a 40k:1 native pj, it will be using 4k:1 CR. If you have 10k:1 pj with a DI it will allocate all of that to the scene, so will be using more CR than the native display.

I'm also of the opinion that if it works and is pretty much invisible in operation, it's fine with me. If it's visible then not so much, and of course we'd all prefer native over a DI just because in the back of our heads we know it's native.
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post #3528 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 03:48 AM
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I'm also of the opinion that if [the DI] works and is pretty much invisible in operation, it's fine with me.
And that's the problem with the Z1 laser dimming DI - it IS visible in operation. Anything that distracts me from watching the film is no good...

With the Sony 1000 I used DI for about two years, and then decided to give up on it and found it a revelation; yes the overall contrast level dropped, but the consistency of the contrast presentation, and the lack of distractions from the DI, made for a much more pleasant viewing experience.

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post #3529 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Sometimes a DI can allocate more contrast to a scene than a pj without one - for example, if a scene uses just 10% from a 40k:1 native pj, it will be using 4k:1 CR. If you have 10k:1 pj with a DI it will allocate all of that to the scene, so will be using more CR than the native display.

I'm also of the opinion that if it works and is pretty much invisible in operation, it's fine with me. If it's visible then not so much, and of course we'd all prefer native over a DI just because in the back of our heads we know it's native.
Agree.

The DI was invented as compensatory device to improve the black level, not one to increase contrast in any given frame, it can't do that to any significant extent. A manual iris can.

Focusing for a moment on a given still frame. Simplistic example apologies!

If it's a predominantly 90% bright frame the iris will open up, let's give a value for the bright and say its 100,000 and the 10% dark bits are 100 in that frame. A contrast ratio of 1000:1.

Next still frame is a predominantly 90% dark frame with some 10% bright that have a 100,000 value, the iris steps down lowering the black to 10, but the bright is now reduced to 10,000, still a contrast ratio of 1000:1

A projector that has a native contrast that would allow brights to be 100,000 and blacks to be 10 is any given scene will slaughter the aforementioned projectors image.

But as you say if it works seamlessly, it can trick the eye/brain into believing it's seeing a higher contrast in scene where the brightness level fluctuates. No free lunch though, less than ideal blacks or compressed brights.

I always wondered why JVC never implemented full block out dynamic iris for total fade to black, imagine running at -15 and the DI only came into play when full fade to black was called for.

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post #3530 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 04:08 AM
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And that's the problem with the Z1 laser dimming DI - it IS visible in operation. Anything that distracts me from watching the film is no good...

With the Sony 1000 I used DI for about two years, and then decided to give up on it and found it a revelation; yes the overall contrast level dropped, but the consistency of the contrast presentation, and the lack of distractions from the DI, made for a much more pleasant viewing experience.
Yup, distractions such as image noise and visible manipulation like a poorly implemented DI would distract me and pull me out of the movie as well.

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post #3531 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 04:13 AM
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Agree.

The DI was invented as compensatory device to improve the black level, not one to increase contrast in any given frame, it can't do that to any significant extent. A manual iris can.

Focusing for a moment on a given still frame. Simplistic example apologies!

If it's a predominantly 90% bright frame the iris will open up, let's give a value for the bright and say its 100,000 and the 10% dark bits are 100 in that frame. A contrast ratio of 1000:1.

Next still frame is a predominantly 90% dark frame with some 10% bright that have a 100,000 value, the iris steps down lowering the black to 10, but the bright is now reduced to 10,000, still a contrast ratio of 1000:1

A projector that has a native contrast that would allow brights to be 100,000 and blacks to be 10 is any given scene will slaughter the aforementioned projectors image.

But as you say if it works seamlessly, it can trick the eye/brain into believing it's seeing a higher contrast in scene where the brightness level fluctuates. No free lunch though, less than ideal blacks or compressed brights.

I always wondered why JVC never implemented full block out dynamic iris for total fade to black, imagine running at -15 and the DI only came into play when full fade to black was called for.
A DI isn't just the iris, though, the gamma is manipulated as well so the bright parts are raised back up by increasing the video signal. If a white part like a star in black space is at lest say 70% of reference white, the iris will dim the image but the gamma will boost the white up to preferably no more than 100% so we lose no visible brightness but have improved the black floor. If the gamma raises the white that is under 100% to above 100% it will crush or compress that detail.

As we don't see linearly, the illusion of the whites staying about the same remain but the black levels are more visibly improved.
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post #3532 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 04:36 AM
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A DI isn't just the iris, though, the gamma is manipulated as well so the bright parts are raised back up by increasing the video signal. If a white part like a star in black space is at lest say 70% of reference white, the iris will dim the image but the gamma will boost the white up to preferably no more than 100% so we lose no visible brightness but have improved the black floor. If the gamma raises the white that is under 100% to above 100% it will crush or compress that detail.

As we don't see linearly, the illusion of the whites staying about the same remain but the black levels are more visibly improved.
I have a feeling that dynamic laser holds the promise of near total seamlessness more so than the manual iris variety. It is stunning when you get true fade to black and I find it works seamless most of the time with my LS10000. I would not have it any other way frankly. The worst case scenario's are pumping on certain end credits and a slight flash on complex scenes where there is a big sudden change from light to dark. Kris Deering, bless his heart, uses the interrogation scene from Oblivion to point out another issue. In this scene there is quick panning movement between the characters and at one point Tom Cruise's face becomes momentarily blurry and distorted. I have not been aware of this effect on any other film material I've watched. Perhaps it is there but Ive not noticed it. In my experience these are very few and far between. Ultimately it will depend on how fussy someone is and I do believe dynamic laser is best placed to solve these types of problems in the near future.
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post #3533 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 04:46 AM
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Hi Paul,

I've a feeling we're seeing the end of lamps in projectors now. As laser become more affordable (like LED), it will be the first choice for the flagship and it will trickle down to the cheaper models (it's kinda already on the way with the Epson laser). While that is happening, I can see the dynamic element being improved as well, along with greater native CR. A pj with high native like the JVC, good dynamic dimming and full fade to black would be the ultimate I guess. Then maybe think about adding native 4K as an afterthought
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post #3534 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I took the opportunity to send some feedback to JVC locally the other day. I essentially made mention of the issues discussed here to date, the contrast performance (both Native CR and on/off) along with inability to match motion sharpness (or lack of) vs RS600/620, the 40% light loss under P3 filter operation, laser dimming being inconsistent (mode 2 more problematic) especially when compared to the VW5000, and last but definitely not least operating fan noise levels… What came back from JVC was...
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
…Ekki's numbers seem to coincide with mine... I've said in the past that the noise levels will definitely be a subjective matter… but I definitely feel they need improvement... I am curious about the comments when it comes to the dynamic laser. It certainly isn't completely transparent in operation but… Definitely not as intrusive as dynamic iris systems I've seen… The BT.2020 filter is a shame though… It definitely takes a toll on the light output and makes it hard to have a bright image on a large screen… Things I'd like to see on its successor: quieter operation, higher native contrast, less light loss with filter, dual aperture system, more refinement in laser dimming, more light output. But with actual viewing of content it is really hard to find a lot of things to complain about. The image with both 1080p and 4K just looks fantastic.
Thanks guys,

Firstly, can everyone please kindly note that it’s not just us; and secondly, most importantly we all need to be making true apples-with-apples comparisions

Where, further to Ekki’s report don’t forget about Jetsen’s measurements with respect to TWO units, and Mark_H’s measurements with respect to his, all of which were circa 1,900 lumens with Rec.709 calibrated, but (as with our measurements) this includes brightness loss due to throw distances. Hence, factoring out said brightness loss this would put Jetsen x 2 and Mark_H all at circa 2,300 lumens, in addition to Ekki and Kris.

And just so we are all clear here with respect to what we ourselves are and/or are not in fact reporting, firstly with respect to the brightness and contrast performance figures specifically, when you convert our measurements such that they are a true apples-with-apples comparison they are in fact also essentially the same as Jetsen x 2, Mark_H, Ekki, and Kris; where when all things considered and accounted for are as per follows:

• Maximum Brightness = circa 2,300 Lumens (Rec.709) and 1,350 Lumens (DCI-P3)

• Minimum Native ON/OFF Contrast = 9,200:1

Further to this, this is what we have reported:

POSITIVES:

● Excellent out-of-the-box performance as compared with calibrated

● Razor sharp image due to superior lenses and associated hardware

● Superb colour performance and accuracy

● Laser dimming feature perceivably significantly enhances the contrast and black levels

● Initial firmware is very good indeed with comparatively very few issues, bugs, and/or malfunctions that need ironing out with subsequent firmware updates

NEGATIVES:

● Disappointing ON/OFF Contrast that is less than forecast by JVC.

● Disappointing brightness output that is less than forecast by JVC.

● Laser dimming feature performance inconsistent and problematic (Mode 2 particularly).

● 40% reduction in brightness output with DCI-P3 colour filter.

● Prone to running hot and when it does the fans switch to 'turbo' mode and the operating noise hits the roof. MAXIMUM operating noise (when running hot): HIGH LASER [Max 70dB / 1m 63dB / 2m 56dB] | MEDIUM LASER [Max 63dB / 1m 57dB / 2m 54dB] | LOW LASER [Max 56dB / 1m 54dB / 2m 51dB]

● Expensive.

Does anyone disagree specifically with any of what we are reporting here?

Everything else is moot. Where given this is the case, whilst we have a whole bucket load of further information including with respect to what may or may not have affected our readings, I haven’t posted it here given our findings are in fact not all things considered significantly different from everyone else. That said, the more accurate measurements of different units in different environments the better, so don’t be shy folks

And just to remind everyone (where I posted this ^^^^) we only posted our findings as an informal report and said that it would not be as professional as Kris' review but will hopefully provide some information and measurements to help fill the void whilst everyone is waiting for Kris' review (myself included!). So, given Kris will be shortly publishing his review (and Ekki has already posted his) it’s served its purpose in this regard. Kris do you have a confirmed precise publication date yet when you will be publishing your review? I think it's fair to say there's a significantly number of folk eagering awaiting it, myself included

For us and our particular clients the circa 1,350 Lumens with DCI-P3 colour is unfortunately and unavoidably ‘GAME OVER’ in itself, where whilst many others can settle for and be happy with Rec.709 we cannot. And then there's the circa 9,200:1 native ON/OFF contrast at peak brightness, which for us is a problem. But that’s just us and this is by not necessarily representative of what's typical with respect to the general population, plus as per usual personal preference is key

I have already posted more than once that with Rec.709 colour on a ‘sensible’ sized screen this projector yields a very nice looking image. And whilst its DCI brightness and contrast performance are less than forecast and promised by JVC this is not by any means a completely crap projector in all respects. We have recommended the best size of screen to be used with respect to this projector being 3.8 metres / 12.5 feet wide in order to yield 16fL in line with the THX recommended 14 - 16 fL, but as Gary Lightfoot has very astutely and correctly pointed out this is in fact the upper end of the recommended range and in fact 14 fL is what is recommended by the likes of SMPTE etc. and he’s right. Furthermore, in a totally blacked out environment you can achieve a great looking image on a larger screen with less lumens, as is demonstrated by Mark_H with his colossal 180” wide screen in his “CAVE”.
.
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Last edited by ARROW-AV; 02-03-2017 at 05:43 AM.
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post #3535 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Thanks guys,

Firstly, can everyone please kindly note that it’s not just us; and secondly, most importantly we all need to be making true apples-with-apples comparisions

Where, further to Ekki’s report don’t forget about Jetsen’s measurements with respect to TWO units, and Mark_H’s measurements with respect to his, all of which were circa 1,900 lumens with Rec.709 calibrated, but (as with our measurements) this includes brightness loss due to throw distances. Hence, factoring out said brightness loss this would put Jetsen x 2 and Mark_H all at circa 2,300 lumens, in addition to Ekki and Kris.

And just so we are all clear here with respect to what we ourselves are and/or are not in fact reporting, firstly with respect to the brightness and contrast performance figures specifically, when you convert our measurements such that they are a true apples-with-apples comparison they are in fact also essentially the same as Jetsen x 2, Mark_H, Ekki, and Kris; where when all things considered and accounted for are as per follows:

• Maximum Brightness = circa 2,300 Lumens (Rec.709) and 1,350 Lumens (DCI-P3)

• Minimum Native ON/OFF Contrast = 9,200:1

Further to this, this is what we have reported:

POSITIVES:

● Excellent out-of-the-box performance as compared with calibrated

● Razor sharp image due to superior lenses and associated hardware

● Superb colour performance and accuracy

● Laser dimming feature perceivably significantly enhances the contrast and black levels

● Initial firmware is very good indeed with comparatively very few issues, bugs, and/or malfunctions that need ironing out with subsequent firmware updates

NEGATIVES:

● Disappointing ON/OFF Contrast that is less than forecast by JVC.

● Disappointing brightness output that is less than forecast by JVC.

● Laser dimming feature performance inconsistent and problematic (Mode 2 particularly).

● 40% reduction in brightness output with DCI-P3 colour filter.

● Prone to running hot and when it does the fans switch to 'turbo' mode and the operating noise hits the roof. MAXIMUM operating noise (when running hot): HIGH LASER [Max 70dB / 1m 63dB / 2m 56dB] | MEDIUM LASER [Max 63dB / 1m 57dB / 2m 54dB] | LOW LASER [Max 56dB / 1m 54dB / 2m 51dB]

● Expensive.

Does anyone disagree specifically with any of what we are reporting here?

Everything else is moot. Where given this is the case, whilst we have a whole bucket load of further information including with respect to what may or may not have affected our readings, I haven’t posted it here given our findings are in fact not all things considered significantly different from everyone else. That said, the more accurate measurements of different units in different environments the better, so don’t be shy folks

And just to remind everyone (where I posted this ^^^^) we only posted our findings as an informal report and said that it would not be as professional as Kris' review but will hopefully provide some information and measurements to help fill the void whilst everyone is waiting for Kris' review (myself included!). So, given Kris will be shortly publishing his review (and Ekki has already posted his) it’s served its purpose in this regard. Kris do you have an ETA when you will be publishing your review? I think it's fair to say there's a significantly number of folk eagering awaiting it, myself included

For us and our particular clients the circa 1,350 Lumens with DCI-P3 colour is unfortunately and unavoidably ‘GAME OVER’ in itself, where whilst many others can settle for and be happy with Rec.709 we cannot. And then there's the circa 9,200:1 native ON/OFF contrast at peak brightness, which for us is a problem. But that’s just us and this is by not necessarily representative of what's typical with respect to the general population, plus as per usual personal preference is key

I have already posted more than once that with Rec.709 colour on a ‘sensible’ sized screen this projector yields a very nice looking image. And whilst its DCI brightness and contrast performance are less than forecast and promised by JVC this is not by any means a completely crap projector in all respects. We have recommended the best size of screen to be used with respect to this projector being 3.8 metres / 12.5 feet wide in order to yield 16fL in line with the THX recommended 14 - 16 fL, but as Gary Lightfoot has very astutely and correctly pointed out this is in fact the upper end of the recommended range and in fact 14 fL is what is recommended by the likes of SMPTE etc. and he’s right. Furthermore, in a totally blacked out environment you can achieve a great looking image on a larger screen with less lumens, as is demonstrated by Mark_H with his colossal 180” wide screen in his “CAVE”.
.
Kris and Ikki's posted numbers seem to be consistent and should be the baseline IMO. You had indicated in your last post it was possible there was an issue with yours. Might make sense to take another look or at least compare notes with Kris and Ikki on how the measurement process was handled.

Do you happen to have the name of the person at JVC that was present with you during your testing? Would be interesting to hear his personal observations after seeing the projector you tested.
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It seems to me that if anyone wants full P3 (with any pj right now that has it) they will have to consider the image brightness with the filter as the pjs max brightness and throttle 709 back to match if they want to keep a consistant fL on their screen. That really reduces their screen size options - unless like with the Sony, you can run it in native gamut without the filter and have it track accurately until the point where it reaches the gamut limits - much like Werner was saying with his set up. It was impossible to tell which was which when he posted the two images side by side so for normal content that was the best option if lumens were at a premium.

I think achieving full P3 or even 2020 without the need for a filter should be higher priority than full 4K as I think WCG can offer more of a visual difference than does 4K over fauK right now. At the moment watching WCG on some projectors is like watching 3D but without the glasses. Epsons LS10500 seems to have managed to get their P3 filter to only drop the lumens by 10% so hopefully that will be the target (or better) for other manufacturers to follow if native P3/2020 isn't possible just yet.
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post #3537 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post
Do you happen to have the name of the person at JVC that was present with you during your testing? Would be interesting to hear his personal observations after seeing the projector you tested.
It wasn't just one person from JVC... It was JVC's National Sales Manager and JVC's Professional Division Technical Manager and JVC UK's distribution Product Manager (N.B. We have all of their names and contact details, but I'm not happy posting these without their consent for obvious reasons). They inspected all of our equipment, our calibration including calibration report, and we demonstrated the unit in situ to them including the noise level and both with respect to the Rec.709 and HDR performance. Also attending was another professional AV company and a couple of other AV dealers who also saw everything and concur with our findings. The observations and comments made by JVC were that the performance was respresentative of and within the expected performance range. We discussed the lower-than-forecast/promised brightness output and native ON/OFF contrast with specifically JVC's Professional Division Technical Manager, but the others were right there listening (we discussed this whilst I was making them all teas and coffees in the venue's kitchen) and he agreed that it was the 0.69" Native 4K reduced pixel size panel that was the predominant reason for the reduced contrast/pixel performance as compared with the existing projectors which utilize the 0.70" HD D-ILA panels. Where I have also discussed the matter with Alan Gouger on more than one occasion and (if he does not mind my saying so) he also agrees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post
Kris and Ikki's posted numbers seem to be consistent and should be the baseline IMO. You had indicated in your last post it was possible there was an issue with yours. Might make sense to take another look or at least compare notes with Kris and Ikki and how the measurement process was handled.
I am glad you asked this because I was going to include this information in my previous post but it was very long already, so now I can!

Right, first of all it is important to note that our reported measurements when converted to true-apple-with-apples comparision are in fact essentially the same as Ekki's and Kris'. Where in fact, the same applies with respect to Mark_H's and Jetsen's. Wherein, in all instances we are talking peak brightness with Rec.709 of circa 2,300 lumens and circa 9,200:1 minimum native ON/OFF contrast.

Both Mark_H's and Jetsen's measurements of circa 1,900 lumens when the throw distance brightness reduction is factored out of the equation yields circa 2,300 lumens.

With respect to ourselves, our reported measurements included not only throw distance brightness reduction, but also we calibrated our JVC DLA-RS4500/Z1 for the super white 16-255 range in accordance with THX professional video guidelines (N.B. We have to do so). However, as Kris has astutely observed many very well respected experienced professional video calibrators are of the opinion that it is best to instead calibrate to 16-235 to maximize both the light output and contrast within this range. In particular with respect to projectors with limited peak brightness output and/or contrast peformance, as in this instance with respect to the JVC RS4500/Z1, we do in fact completely agree with this philosophy. In other words, Kris is absolutely correct. The result of which is that, by our having to have calibrated the unit with respect to the super white 16-255 range, our measurements are comparatively lower with respect to both maximum brightness and minimum native contrast. But when both this and brightness loss due to the throw distance are factored into the equation our measurements are in fact in the order of 2,300 lumens peak brightness and 9,200:1 minimum native ON/OFF contrast ratio.

Hence, whilst at first glance it might appear that there are a variety of differing performances being reported between Ekki and Kris, as compared with Jetsen and Mark_H, as compared with us, when you ensure everything is true apples-with-apples comparisions, we are in fact all reporting the same performance, namely circa 2,300 lumens peak brightness (Rec.709) and 9,200:1 minimum native ON/OFF contrast ratio.

Further to this, both we and Ekki have observed a circa 40% reduction in brightness output with respect to DCI-P3 colour, but it would be good to get further corroboration regarding this.

It is our intention to carry out a comprehensive evaluation of the JVC RS620/X9500 shortly upon our return from ISE, wherein we will see if we can carry out a repeat evaluation of the RS4500/Z1 and report our findings. That said, we do not expect to be reporting anything significantly different given what we have reported is already essentially the same as everyone else. With respect to the particular matter of calibrating within the super white 16-255 as opposed to 16-235 range we have now had opportunity to discuss the matter with THX and what we will be doing from here onwards with respect to instances where we post a report on here is to do BOTH; and in doing so we will include the fully comprehensive details regarding the performance of whatever display device with respect to BOTH in our report. We consider this the ideal solution, because not only it retains our desire and need to comply with the latest up-to-date THX and ISF professional video best practice guidelines, but also we feel it may provide some useful comparison data such that consumers can make an informed decision with respect to which option they wish to proceed with, based on whatever are the particular performance figures, the particular circumstances, and their personal preference. (N.B. I should add that this is a highly controversial subject )

Where what's really needed, whilst we are all waiting for Kris' review to be published, is for more folks, like your good self, as well as the likes of Craig Peer, Mike Garratt, and Ccool96, and anyone else, to post your own measurements of your particular units in your particular environments, where the more the merrier IMO, so don't be shy!
.
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post #3538 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
It seems to me that if anyone wants full P3 (with any pj right now that has it) they will have to consider the image brightness with the filter as the pjs max brightness and throttle 709 back to match if they want to keep a consistant fL on their screen. That really reduces their screen size options - unless like with the Sony, you can run it in native gamut without the filter and have it track accurately until the point where it reaches the gamut limits - much like Werner was saying with his set up. It was impossible to tell which was which when he posted the two images side by side so for normal content that was the best option if lumens were at a premium.

I think achieving full P3 or even 2020 without the need for a filter should be higher priority than full 4K as I think WCG can offer more of a visual difference than does 4K over fauK right now. At the moment watching WCG on some projectors is like watching 3D but without the glasses. Epsons LS10500 seems to have managed to get their P3 filter to only drop the lumens by 10% so hopefully that will be the target (or better) for other manufacturers to follow if native P3/2020 isn't possible just yet.
Agreed. If was just me and my home cinema I could probably make do with Rec.709. But we are governed by both the desires of and what's best for our customers, and as you have astutely pointed out yourself on more than once occasion extended colour is way more important than resolution, and with respect to as of right now and hereon we could not agree more. As far as we are concerned DCI-P3 is the minimum standard and we are looking toward BT.2020. So having to settle for Rec.709 is quite simply not an option for us. And so in this regard as far as we are concerned it's the DCI-P3 lumens that's all-important and hence the %age reduction with DCI-P3 colour is key; and, as you have stated, Epson have succeeded in limiting this to only a 10% drop and it is my understanding that the BT.2020 performance is also pretty good with the Epson 10,000 and 10,500 as well isn't it Gary? Can you confirm what %age of BT.2020 it does? (sorry I could look it up but being lazy ) Which does beg the question, if Epson can achieve this, why not other manufacturers?

Clearly a massive drop in lumens with native 4K resolution in trade for DCI-P3 colour quite simply is not a good deal, and eshift 4K with higher brightness DCI-P3 colour would be better. Absolutely bang on, as per usual
.

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post #3539 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
and, as you have stated, Epson have succeeded in limiting this to only a 10% drop, and it is my understanding that the BT.2020 performance is also pretty good with the Epson 10,000 and 10,500 as well isn't it Gary? Can you confirm what %age of BT.2020 it does? (sorry I could look it up but being lazy ) Which does beg the question, if Epson can achieve this, why not other manufacturers?
.
I'll have to do a search as well, but from memory, I think the 10000 was round 75% of 2020, and the 10500 was 84% from those particular units that were measured. You should be able to find the info with images of the gamuts over on the UK forum, though I'm sure Cine4home will have similar info on their site too.

I'm pretty sure all the other manufacturers will be doing something similar to Epson by the end of the year though, so it should be an exciting two or three years, by which time 2020 may be fully available in 2020
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post #3540 of 5254 Old 02-03-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Where what's really needed, whilst we are all waiting for Kris' review to be published, is for more folks, like your good self, as well as the likes of Craig Peer, Mike Garratt, and Ccool96, and anyone else, to post your own measurements of your particular units in your particular environments, where the more the merrier IMO, so don't be shy! .
What we need is more calibrators to chime in to nail this down. So far, as I see it, at least 3 of the folks doing the reporting have the tools, skills, and either reputation or proper oversight to do the posted measurements. If we get sales folks and less technical users chiming in, I take that with a grain of salt. We all want this to be PJ nirvana, but it appears it fell short of that. Question appears to be if marginal performance along with the bonuses of a laser light source and 4k resolution will justify the price. And by marginal I mean relative to what everyone expected/hoped for. Whether or not Arrow's measurements are trusted, I'm not crazy about the numbers shown by others so far. And while I might be happy with bright and Rec709, a loud PJ is a no-go for my personal room. What we all really want is for 6 pros to chime in and say they are all wrong and the thing is whisper quiet . That doesn't look promising. If 10 users chime in with "it's wonderful" the rest will still be skeptical. That said, I will add as a user that it did look very nice at CEDIA. But it was supposed to. This may come down to a "you come see it for yourself" thing for those looking at it. Craig's in CA, Tony's in the NYC/NJ area, Chris is NFL. So maybe some places to see?
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