JVC 4k Native Laser projector (confirm) - Page 121 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3995Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #3601 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 06:01 AM
Hello, World!
 
Mark_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: England
Posts: 2,419
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 365 Post(s)
Liked: 257
'fraid so. I went eagerly digging through the boxes when the projector arrived but came up empty handed. A quick read through the manual delivered the blow "optional extras".
adidino likes this.

My cinema: The Cave!
My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, JVC Z1, Lumagen Pro, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500
Mark_H is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3602 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 06:07 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ccool96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 1,498
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 782 Post(s)
Liked: 1113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Laser dimming...

Watched Die Hard today - (an itch that needed to be scratched.) The scene towards the end where all the arc lamps are shining on the building, I decided to try the laser dimming again. With no laser dimming - bright white sources of light against lovely black backgrounds. With laser mode 1 - dim and *very* off-white coloured. So wrong.

I'd encourage all those that think they need to use the laser dimming to try a film without it. Not only is the native contrast decent enough to give good blacks, the overall image is just so much more natural.
I completely agree. Laser dimming needs more work before it's really usable. It's very aggressive and it causes color shift. I noticed same thing you speak of when signing into Netflix. When logging in and starting a video, the screen is all black except for a white spinning circle. With dimming on, this becomes so dim you can barely see it and it's very yellow in color. With it off, it's very bright crisp white.

The bright areas take way more of a hit then they should to bring down the black level. They need to tweak this to find a better medium.

They really need to deal with how much the color shifts as well.
kohe321 likes this.
ccool96 is offline  
post #3603 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 07:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,123
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2506 Post(s)
Liked: 2027
HDR preset is without the filter? What is the preset with the filter - it's getting confusing to follow certain feedback...thanks

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 16 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
thrang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3604 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 07:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
adidino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4,915
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 507 Post(s)
Liked: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I watched about half of Xmen Apocalypse in UHD HDR Bluray, using the HDR preset. Wow! It looked great. Didn't have to touch a single setting. I'm not sure where it's clipping things at, but it looked almost identical to my 5000ES, which I typically use the "HDR Contrast Slider" set to 80.
@ccool96 was this with the filter or without? If without, have you tested with filter? ....almost identical to the 5000, same question, that with or without filter? Thanks!

Last edited by adidino; 02-05-2017 at 07:29 AM.
adidino is offline  
post #3605 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 07:50 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 15,123
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2755 Post(s)
Liked: 2659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I've been on an interesting journey with 4K UHD BR. With the RS600, I tried HDR, but hated what it did to the black levels. Then I got an HD Fury Integral and watched SDR BT.2020 ( which I liked ). With the RS4500, I tried the HDR preset, and I also tried BT.2020, which on my sized screen(s) is do-able. I've come to the conclusion that Kris Deering's suggestion to watch 4K Blu Rays using Rec. 709 just looks more natural. You still get the added detail and clean noise free picture thanks to 4K, and Rec 709 using the natural preset is brighter.
That's the first I've heard about rec 709 being preferrable to BT.2020!

Why would that be the case? I thought using the Panny/HD Fury combo you get expanded color over 709, so why would 709 look any better? (I understand that you don't get near the full benefit of the expanded color without HDR, but I thought you get *some* benefit, otherwise why are people using it?)
roxiedog13 likes this.
R Harkness is offline  
post #3606 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:17 AM
Senior Member
 
kohe321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Norway
Posts: 427
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Laser dimming...

Watched Die Hard today - (an itch that needed to be scratched.) The scene towards the end where all the arc lamps are shining on the building, I decided to try the laser dimming again. With no laser dimming - bright white sources of light against lovely black backgrounds. With laser mode 1 - dim and *very* off-white coloured. So wrong.

I'd encourage all those that think they need to use the laser dimming to try a film without it. Not only is the native contrast decent enough to give good blacks, the overall image is just so much more natural.
Interesting, I actually watched Die Hard a couple weeks ago on my LS10000, with laser dimming activated of course, as it has been on my machine since I got it back in May. Didn't see it jump or distort the colors once throughout the movie. With regards to this flicker/jump in brightness artefact - I probably only see it on my LS10000 once in every 10 movies I watch. It only seems to happen when very spesific conditions are met, so Epson seems to have nailed the algorithm quite well.

I read @Craig Peer noticed this jump roughly 2-3 times during Oblivion and 4 times during Star Trek (2009) on his RS4500. These movies play without a hiccup from the dimming system on the LS10000, so this sounds excessive.

So it sounds like JVC has a lot to improve with the algorithm and general implementation of the dimming system. Laser dimming can work a lot better than this. Good news is that this should be fixable via firmware, so hopefully they can get a fix out soon, as the overall verdict of the RS4500's performance would improve a lot if it just had a great dimming system that was as transparent as Epson's.

By the way Craig, that is a great HT!
DavidHir likes this.
kohe321 is offline  
post #3607 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:25 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
Interesting, I actually watched Die Hard a couple weeks ago on my LS10000, with laser dimming activated of course, as it has been on my machine since I got it back in May. Didn't see it jump or distort the colors once throughout the movie. With regards to this flicker/jump in brightness artefact - I probably only see it on my LS10000 once in every 10 movies I watch. It only seems to happen when very spesific conditions are met, so Epson seems to have nailed the algorithm quite well.

I read @Craig Peer noticed this jump roughly 2-3 times during Oblivion and 4 times during Star Trek (2009) on his RS4500. These movies play without a hiccup from the dimming system on the LS10000, so this sounds excessive.

So it sounds like JVC has a lot to improve with the algorithm and general implementation of the dimming system. Laser dimming can work a lot better than this. Good news is that this should be fixable via firmware, so hopefully they can get a fix out soon, as the overall verdict of the RS4500's performance would improve a lot if it just had a great dimming system that was as transparent as Epson's.

By the way Craig, that is a great HT!
Mind you I'm looking specifically for it, and I've seen dynamic iris " missteps " ( when I an looking for it ) on my RS600, VW600 and Sim2 Lumis Host. On the RS600 and the RS4500, the " hiccups " have been very minor, and non videophiles would probably not notice them at all.

Thanks - the projector closet continues to be the best idea I've had. No projector noise at all ! It's a very comfy theater for 8, and everyone has a front row seat !
WOLVERNOLE likes this.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3608 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:38 AM
Senior Member
 
kohe321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Norway
Posts: 427
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Mind you I'm looking specifically for it, and I've seen dynamic iris " missteps " ( when I an looking for it ) on my RS600, VW600 and Sim2 Lumis Host. On the RS600 and the RS4500, the " hiccups " have been very minor, and non videophiles would probably not notice them at all.
Come on, you don't have to sit and look specifically for it to notice the "flicker flash" artifact in a HT with a big screen, it's extremely obvious when it happens. And for what it's worth, I very often noticed the dynamic iris working on my RS400 as well (in mode 2), it was quite obvious in many scenes. Not sure if the RS600 has a better implementation?

My point is that watching movies in a good HT is the very definition of "critical viewing", so one will notice image artifacts very easily. From just 1,25 screen widths away in my batcave I can see my Epson doing a mistake with its laser dimming just a few times a month, and we use it several hours daily. JVC should be able to match that on a 35k$ machine.

Going over to laser dimming is supposed to be an improvement over most physical iris systems, as it has the potential to work on a frame by frame basis which only very sophisticated physical DI systems can do. Transparency is key.

Here's a stresstest you can put it through: the bar scene in Inglorious Basterds. I remember whenever the camera angle changed during the conversation, the iris would pump to the point of being so disturbing that I had to turn it off on my RS400. Would be interesting to hear how the RS4500 handles it.
Bandyka likes this.

Last edited by kohe321; 02-05-2017 at 08:55 AM.
kohe321 is offline  
post #3609 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:39 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
That's the first I've heard about rec 709 being preferrable to BT.2020!

Why would that be the case? I thought using the Panny/HD Fury combo you get expanded color over 709, so why would 709 look any better? (I understand that you don't get near the full benefit of the expanded color without HDR, but I thought you get *some* benefit, otherwise why are people using it?)
I may go back to the HDR preset, but I thought I'd try Rec 709 based on something Kris D. said. He could probably explain it better, but as we've seen with trying to use SDR BT.2020, there was no industry standard to map that. Samsung = too red. Oppo = not quite right. Panasonic = pretty good - maybe they got lucky. This is why people have been fiddling with settings all over the place. But there is an industry standard to output Rec 709. Sometimes I thing the color is just cranked up too much on 4K HDR. Nearly every 4K HDTV demo at CES or Cedia looks " over cooked " to me, like they are training to set up TV sales displays at best Buy and Costco.

But it's all good. It's fun to think outside the box and see if there is something better. There is "reference " and there is " preference ". Rec 709 at 20 foot lamberts looks pretty damn good on a 4K laser projector! but HDR is one click of the button away - more experimenting this week !
Dave Harper likes this.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3610 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:45 AM
Hello, World!
 
Mark_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: England
Posts: 2,419
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 365 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
Interesting, I actually watched Die Hard a couple weeks ago on my LS10000, with laser dimming activated of course, as it has been on my machine since I got it back in May. Didn't see it jump or distort the colors once throughout the movie. With regards to this flicker/jump in brightness artefact - I probably only see it on my LS10000 once in every 10 movies I watch. It only seems to happen when very spesific conditions are met, so Epson seems to have nailed the algorithm quite well.

So it sounds like JVC has a lot to improve with the algorithm and general implementation of the dimming system. Laser dimming can work a lot better than this. Good news is that this should be fixable via firmware, so hopefully they can get a fix out soon, as the overall verdict of the RS4500's performance would improve a lot if it just had a great dimming system that was as transparent as Epson's.
Good to know. While I've never upgraded a projector's firmware, I'm ready to do it on the Z1 if it brings improvements that I can use.
kohe321 likes this.

My cinema: The Cave!
My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, JVC Z1, Lumagen Pro, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500
Mark_H is online now  
post #3611 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:46 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I watched about half of Xmen Apocalypse in UHD HDR Bluray, using the HDR preset. Wow! It looked great. Didn't have to touch a single setting. I'm not sure where it's clipping things at, but it looked almost identical to my 5000ES, which I typically use the "HDR Contrast Slider" set to 80.

But compared to the RS600, the RS4500 blows it away in terms of dealing with HDR. The RS600 requires way to many adjustments to try to get a good HDR image, but the RS4500 required none of that.

Craig, you should go back and watch Star Trek in 4K HDR, I don't think you will want to watch it with Rec709 SDR anymore. The image didn't lose any brightness at all compared to SDR content.
I'll have to re-watch this with the HDR pre set today. I'd get a lot more projector testing done if I hadn't decided to re - painted a couple of walls in my theater much darker yesterday - took about 6 hours of viewing time off the table. And no David - the Roscoe Black Velor is next - didn't get to that quite yet !
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3612 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:53 AM
Senior Member
 
kohe321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Norway
Posts: 427
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 296
@Craig Peer Having a dedicated room behind the HT for the projector is a great thing. One day when I have the space that's what I'll be aiming to do as well. Great work on the panel with the lens hole going into the HT, looks really good!
Craig Peer likes this.
kohe321 is offline  
post #3613 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:55 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
Come on, you don't have to sit and look specifically for it to notice the "flicker flash" artifact in a HT with a big screen, it's extremely obvious when it happens. And for what it's worth, I very often noticed the dynamic iris working on my RS400 as well (in mode 2), it was quite obvious in many scenes. Not sure if the RS600 has a better implementation?

My point is that watching movies in a good HT is the very definition of "critical viewing", so one will notice image artifacts very easily. From just 1,25 screen widths away in my batcave I can see my Epson doing a mistake with its laser dimming just a few times a month, and we use it several hours daily. JVC should be able to match that on a 35k$ machine.

Going over to laser dimming is supposed to be an improvement and be far more transparent than just about most physical iris systems, as it has the potential to work on a frame by frame basis, which only very sophisticated physical DI systems can do.

Here's a stresstest you can put it through: the bar scene in Inglorious Basterds. I remember whenever the camera angle changed during the conversation, the iris would pump to the point of being so disturbing that I had to turn it off on my RS400. Would be interesting to hear how the RS4500 handles it.
I have that Blu Ray. I can stress test it later today. But no - it's not very obvious in my theater when the laser dimming misbehaves - it's very subtle. Kris Deering has said the same thing. He's running at -10 manual iris. I'm running at -7 manual iris. Smaller screens, manual iris closed down, mid laser setting, short throw, lots of lumens head room seems to = good dynamic iris operation. But yes, this should be the first thing JVC works on.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3614 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 08:58 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 15,123
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2755 Post(s)
Liked: 2659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I may go back to the HDR preset, but I thought I'd try Rec 709 based on something Kris D. said. He could probably explain it better, but as we've seen with trying to use SDR BT.2020, there was no industry standard to map that. Samsung = too red. Oppo = not quite right. Panasonic = pretty good - maybe they got lucky. This is why people have been fiddling with settings all over the place. But there is an industry standard to output Rec 709. Sometimes I thing the color is just cranked up too much on 4K HDR. Nearly every 4K HDTV demo at CES or Cedia looks " over cooked " to me, like they are training to set up TV sales displays at best Buy and Costco.

But it's all good. It's fun to think outside the box and see if there is something better. There is "reference " and there is " preference ". Rec 709 at 20 foot lamberts looks pretty damn good on a 4K laser projector! but HDR is one click of the button away - more experimenting this week !
Thanks Craig, I see what you are getting at.
R Harkness is offline  
post #3615 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 09:01 AM
Senior Member
 
Rob-Houston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 450
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
... - more experimenting this week !
You may be one of the first to watch a super bowl on a RS4500!
Craig Peer likes this.
Rob-Houston is offline  
post #3616 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 09:02 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
@Craig Peer Having a dedicated room behind the HT for the projector is a great thing. One day when I have the space that's what I'll be aiming to do as well. Great work on the panel with the lens hole going into the HT, looks really good!
Thanks! I had to re - build the front ( theater side ) of the enclosure to accommodate the RS4500 - it was 3" too long when I realized the HDMI cables came out the back ! It's been a busy 4 days. I used the dimension drawings in the back of the owners manual and pre - built a " kit " ( since I was watching my RS600 right up until the RS4500 showed up - can't be without a projector ), and re - built it Thursday night. Had friends help carry it upstairs Friday, re - painted part of the theater Sat., time to rest and watch movie and do more testing now that it's Sunday !
kohe321 likes this.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3617 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 09:10 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Thanks Craig, I see what you are getting at.
I'm just looking for the most realistic looking picture I can get. Watching parts of " Lone Survivor " on 4K on the RS4500 ( regardless of the color space ), I can see the texture of scratches and paint chips on the AR15 receivers like they are right there - amazing.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3618 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 09:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BOBCAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

........ the projector closet continues to be the best idea I've had. No projector noise at all ! It's a very comfy theater for 8, and everyone has a front row seat !
Looks great Craig!, If I had the space behind where my projector hangs, would do the same thing, then I would have a 4500 on the way.
How much space between the wall and the exhaust vents of the projector do you have?
Nice room! Are you going to have a Super Bowl watching party today?
BOBCAT is offline  
post #3619 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 09:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ccool96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 1,498
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 782 Post(s)
Liked: 1113
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I watched about half of Xmen Apocalypse in UHD HDR Bluray, using the HDR preset. Wow! It looked great. Didn't have to touch a single setting. I'm not sure where it's clipping things at, but it looked almost identical to my 5000ES, which I typically use the "HDR Contrast Slider" set to 80.
@ccool96 was this with the filter or without? If without, have you tested with filter? ....almost identical to the 5000, same question, that with or without filter? Thanks!
That was without the filter. I haven't tested with the filter, because my screen is on the large size. But without the filter things still looked really good. There was no decernable difference between the APL brightness of HDR vs SDR, so I need to see where things are clipping at. My guess would be around 1200-1500 nits.

I'll see how the things look with the filter later today, but I prefer a much brighter image. Most of the my preferred UHD viewing on my 5000ES is with using Colorspace 2 and not Rec2020. So the same situation, where I don't use the filter on the Sony.
ccool96 is offline  
post #3620 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 09:28 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBCAT View Post
Looks great Craig!, If I had the space behind where my projector hangs, would do the same thing, then I would have a 4500 on the way.
How much space between the wall and the exhaust vents of the projector do you have?
Nice room! Are you going to have a Super Bowl watching party today?
That was part of re - building the front of the enclosure. On previous projectors, the exhaust vents are more angled. On the RS4500, the front is more flat. So I stepped the sides to open up the inside using 1 x 3 pre - primed MDF from Home Depot, each board overlapped 1/2 inch ( sort of stair stepped ) -



Inside view with exhaust vents -



I've had a DPI D vision 1080p, a Sim Lumis, a Sim Lumis and a VW600 at the same time, a VW600 and an RS600 at the same time ( see my gallery in my signature ) and now the RS4500 installed in there !

I'm off to Costco for Supper Bowl snacks with 10,000 other people - later !
Dave Harper, BOBCAT and Seegs108 like this.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3621 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 10:18 AM
Member
 
kimg1453's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lakewood Ranch, Fl
Posts: 187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 111
Craig,

Just wanted to say congratulations on getting the JVC RS4500. One day for myself maybe, but at least I still have a smile on my face when I watch on my Sim2 Super Lumis. Ha! Hope things are well with you and the family.

Kim
kimg1453 is offline  
post #3622 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 01:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BrolicBeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Charles County, MD
Posts: 5,434
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1796 Post(s)
Liked: 2098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
On a £35,000 product, the 3D bits are optional extras :/ Trying to source some.
If you are still trying to source some, shoot me a PM. My guy hooked me up on JVC 3D glasses & emitter ( I absolutely love 3D). I'm a prospective RS4500 owner (once the dust settles on calibrated performance), but I'm glad I'll have these, just in case.

--Posted via Tapatalk, which actually is pretty cool.
BrolicBeast is offline  
post #3623 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 01:03 PM
 
Dave Harper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Paradise on Earth
Posts: 6,554
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3159 Post(s)
Liked: 1723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I may go back to the HDR preset, but I thought I'd try Rec 709 based on something Kris D. said. He could probably explain it better, but as we've seen with trying to use SDR BT.2020, there was no industry standard to map that. Samsung = too red. Oppo = not quite right. Panasonic = pretty good - maybe they got lucky. This is why people have been fiddling with settings all over the place. But there is an industry standard to output Rec 709. Sometimes I thing the color is just cranked up too much on 4K HDR. Nearly every 4K HDTV demo at CES or Cedia looks " over cooked " to me, like they are training to set up TV sales displays at best Buy and Costco.



But it's all good. It's fun to think outside the box and see if there is something better. There is "reference " and there is " preference ". Rec 709 at 20 foot lamberts looks pretty damn good on a 4K laser projector! but HDR is one click of the button away - more experimenting this week !

That sounds a lot like what I've been doing lately with my Sony 675ES.

Have fun Craig. I'm sure the Super Bowl will look absolutely stunning on that beast!
Craig Peer likes this.
Dave Harper is offline  
post #3624 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 01:45 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimg1453 View Post
Craig,

Just wanted to say congratulations on getting the JVC RS4500. One day for myself maybe, but at least I still have a smile on my face when I watch on my Sim2 Super Lumis. Ha! Hope things are well with you and the family.

Kim
Thanks Kim. The RS4500 is the new 4K Lumis !
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3625 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 02:01 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
Come on, you don't have to sit and look specifically for it to notice the "flicker flash" artifact in a HT with a big screen, it's extremely obvious when it happens. And for what it's worth, I very often noticed the dynamic iris working on my RS400 as well (in mode 2), it was quite obvious in many scenes. Not sure if the RS600 has a better implementation?

My point is that watching movies in a good HT is the very definition of "critical viewing", so one will notice image artifacts very easily. From just 1,25 screen widths away in my batcave I can see my Epson doing a mistake with its laser dimming just a few times a month, and we use it several hours daily. JVC should be able to match that on a 35k$ machine.

Going over to laser dimming is supposed to be an improvement over most physical iris systems, as it has the potential to work on a frame by frame basis which only very sophisticated physical DI systems can do. Transparency is key.

Here's a stresstest you can put it through: the bar scene in Inglorious Basterds. I remember whenever the camera angle changed during the conversation, the iris would pump to the point of being so disturbing that I had to turn it off on my RS400. Would be interesting to hear how the RS4500 handles it.
I just watched this. You must be talking about when the shot switches from the SS officer ( dark scene ) to everybody at the table ( very bright scene ) in the bar. To be honest, I can see the iris work when it switches to the bright scene ( can't see it work when it goes back the the SS officer / dark scene ), but it is subtle. That scene would be visible on dynamic irises on my Sim Lumis, the VW600 I had and probably the RS600 too. It's so subtle on my setup, it doesn't bother me. It actually doesn't look any worse than the other projectors I've had, and better in many respects. Some people hate all dynamic irises - I understand. I think right now it's very set up dependent. And I'd wager that JVC can improve it in future firmware updates.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3626 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 02:36 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,534
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11816 Post(s)
Liked: 9350
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
Come on, you don't have to sit and look specifically for it to notice the "flicker flash" artifact in a HT with a big screen, it's extremely obvious when it happens. And for what it's worth, I very often noticed the dynamic iris working on my RS400 as well (in mode 2), it was quite obvious in many scenes. Not sure if the RS600 has a better implementation?

My point is that watching movies in a good HT is the very definition of "critical viewing", so one will notice image artifacts very easily. From just 1,25 screen widths away in my batcave I can see my Epson doing a mistake with its laser dimming just a few times a month, and we use it several hours daily. JVC should be able to match that on a 35k$ machine.

Going over to laser dimming is supposed to be an improvement over most physical iris systems, as it has the potential to work on a frame by frame basis which only very sophisticated physical DI systems can do. Transparency is key.

Here's a stresstest you can put it through: the bar scene in Inglorious Basterds. I remember whenever the camera angle changed during the conversation, the iris would pump to the point of being so disturbing that I had to turn it off on my RS400. Would be interesting to hear how the RS4500 handles it.
Epson did a great job with their dynamic dimming system. About the only complaint I have ever seen is when it comes out of full fade to black, it is not smooth. That is because there is a big step from laser off to on as low as it can go. Only way around that is to have high native contrast, so the step is very small.
kohe321 likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #3627 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 02:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Bandyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,879
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2327 Post(s)
Liked: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Epson did a great job with their dynamic dimming system. About the only complaint I have ever seen is when it comes out of full fade to black, it is not smooth. That is because there is a big step from laser off to on as low as it can go. Only way around that is to have high native contrast, so the step is very small.
It can be very smooth indeed if you set it to the mid setting.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
Bandyka is offline  
post #3628 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 04:11 PM
Senior Member
 
kohe321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Norway
Posts: 427
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Naturally the blacks have to "jump" up a bit when it comes out of a total fade to black as there is a gap between total darkness and the darkest black floor the projector is capable of. However, this is only visible as a jump if the following scene after the fade to black is very dark. Luckily, many scenes following fades to black are bright, and in those cases it's a complete non-issue.

Personally though, I don't find it jarring even when the next scene is very dark and requiring the full black floor from the projector. The reason for this is that the LS10000 is capable of a black level that is deep enough to reproduce night scenes, or any other typical dark scenarios, good enough for it to look authentic. So whenever I am jolted back into the action, even to a dark scene, the black level does not feel fake, it just feels like the movie and story is continuing. I think this is something most people will get used to quite easily.

Of course I'd always like even better contrast performance, but I honestly feel the LS10000 is capable of blacks that are deep enough for the other qualities of the image it throws to start weighing more heavily in the equation.
DavidHir, d.j. and mmdd like this.

Last edited by kohe321; 02-05-2017 at 04:21 PM.
kohe321 is offline  
post #3629 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 04:20 PM
Senior Member
 
kohe321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Norway
Posts: 427
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I just watched this. You must be talking about when the shot switches from the SS officer ( dark scene ) to everybody at the table ( very bright scene ) in the bar. To be honest, I can see the iris work when it switches to the bright scene ( can't see it work when it goes back the the SS officer / dark scene ), but it is subtle. That scene would be visible on dynamic irises on my Sim Lumis, the VW600 I had and probably the RS600 too. It's so subtle on my setup, it doesn't bother me. It actually doesn't look any worse than the other projectors I've had, and better in many respects. Some people hate all dynamic irises - I understand. I think right now it's very set up dependent. And I'd wager that JVC can improve it in future firmware updates.
As I recall the DI started to get very disturbing at the point in the sequence where they are all seated together and he starts questioning Michael Fassbender's character on his odd dialect, and the tension slowly starts building. There are "shot - reverse shot" moments during this conversation where the dynamic iris was lagging behind and it was easy to see the brightness change and gamma pumping happening, and since each shot started to become quite short as the conversation heated up, the constant pumping as the iris tried to play catch-up became really distracting towards the end.
kohe321 is offline  
post #3630 of 5254 Old 02-05-2017, 04:27 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,773
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
As I recall the DI started to get very disturbing at the point in the sequence where they are all seated together and he starts questioning Michael Fassbender's character on his odd dialect, and the tension slowly starts building. There are "shot - reverse shot" moments during this conversation where the dynamic iris was lagging behind and it was easy to see the brightness change and gamma pumping happening, and since each shot started to become quite short as the conversation heated up, the constant pumping as the iris tried to play catch-up became really distracting towards the end.
I remember that the Sim Lumis Host's dynamic iris worked very well, until someone watched " The Blind Side ", and that movie for some reason made the D.I. go bat***** crazy for some reason. Why that Blu Ray ? Who the heck knows ! Anyway, hopefully there are some really clever software engineers working on this right now, at Epson, JVC and Sony !
kohe321 likes this.
Craig Peer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off