JVC 4k Native Laser projector (confirm) - Page 134 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3991 of 5254 Old 02-16-2017, 03:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Dave think you're misinterpreting me again mate. I'm far from worried about doing it. ......

You're totally confusing me then, sorry. When people say they don't want to be a "guinea pig", at least to me, it means they're a little worried about being one of the first to be doing what someone's asking.

Let's just leave it here then. Enjoy your 4500/Z1 while I continue to sit here being jealous!
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post #3992 of 5254 Old 02-16-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Thanks Craig, that's good to know. Does sound kind of surprising it would be that easy to plug in the custom gamma curves from the lamp based 5/6xxx series into the 4500. Maybe I'll be patient and wait for one of the other guys to give that ago. I may not be home tonight to try it anyway.
I don't see why it wouldn't work, assuming JVC hasn't changed the file format for the new calibration software. There's nothing specific to the projectors being lamp based. It's just an gamma curve that's been calibrated to approximately match the ST.2084 EOTF. What they are, is setup specific. In other words the curve I made is specific to my setup, my measured peak luminance, and possibly any anomilies in my projector's native gamma (though I believe the autocal should take that out).

On the RSx00's the built in Gamma D curve is very bad, and these custom curves are much, much better. The remaining question is, what's different about the new "HDR" curve in the RS4500 (and RSx20s), hopefully they're fixed and there's no benefits to running a custom curve.
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post #3993 of 5254 Old 02-16-2017, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I don't see why it wouldn't work, assuming JVC hasn't changed the file format for the new calibration software. There's nothing specific to the projectors being lamp based. It's just an gamma curve that's been calibrated to approximately match the ST.2084 EOTF. What they are, is setup specific. In other words the curve I made is specific to my setup, my measured peak luminance, and possibly any anomilies in my projector's native gamma (though I believe the autocal should take that out).

On the RSx00's the built in Gamma D curve is very bad, and these custom curves are much, much better. The remaining question is, what's different about the new "HDR" curve in the RS4500 (and RSx20s), hopefully they're fixed and there's no benefits to running a custom curve.
The gamma curve in the RS4500 is not bad now.
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post #3994 of 5254 Old 02-16-2017, 09:30 AM
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The gamma curve in the RS4500 is not bad now.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that it was, but I guess we don't know if it's just an improved version of Gamma D (with enough fiddling you could get that looking decent on the RSx00's), or if it's entirely new and based of ST2084. If it's the later, I don't expect there'd be much benefit with a custom gamma.
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post #3995 of 5254 Old 02-16-2017, 01:41 PM
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Does anyone know where/if this PJ can be demoed in the Sydney area AUS?

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #3996 of 5254 Old 02-16-2017, 01:46 PM
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The gamma curve in the RS4500 is not bad now.
Correct, it is a better plug and play than the other line (though I'm still looking at the RS620 in this regard). BUT, the approach Manni is taking should benefit 4500 owners just as much, if not more, than the other JVC owners. They all still have to try and conform somehow to the standards and since the 4500 can do laser dimming, it would make it better for blacks on top of it. No doubt in my mind, I'd be all over this with the 4500 if I still had it here.
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post #3997 of 5254 Old 02-16-2017, 05:27 PM
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Correct, it is a better plug and play than the other line (though I'm still looking at the RS620 in this regard). BUT, the approach Manni is taking should benefit 4500 owners just as much, if not more, than the other JVC owners. They all still have to try and conform somehow to the standards and since the 4500 can do laser dimming, it would make it better for blacks on top of it. No doubt in my mind, I'd be all over this with the 4500 if I still had it here.
I downloaded and tried the 1100 - 800 - 4000 gamma. Interesting, but I think I like either the HDR preset, or strangely enough, that new gamma looks closer to SDR Rec. 709 to me. At least on my RS4500. No time to experiment more right now.
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post #3998 of 5254 Old 02-16-2017, 05:40 PM
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I don't see why it wouldn't work, assuming JVC hasn't changed the file format for the new calibration software. There's nothing specific to the projectors being lamp based. It's just an gamma curve that's been calibrated to approximately match the ST.2084 EOTF. What they are, is setup specific. In other words the curve I made is specific to my setup, my measured peak luminance, and possibly any anomilies in my projector's native gamma (though I believe the autocal should take that out).

On the RSx00's the built in Gamma D curve is very bad, and these custom curves are much, much better. The remaining question is, what's different about the new "HDR" curve in the RS4500 (and RSx20s), hopefully they're fixed and there's no benefits to running a custom curve.
I definitely never said I didn't think it would work. My only comments were based around the curve being suitable across both the 5/6xx series and 4500. Listening to Kris it seems to be very likely there is a significant benefit to be had.

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Does anyone know where/if this PJ can be demoed in the Sydney area AUS?
You'd have to speak to JVC as the 2 units they have, as I indicated in my recent posts both being tested and calibrated at Sydney production houses in last week (the second still at one this week). From what I know one unit would be back with JVC, not sure if they've loaned it out again since last week. Again I'd call them directly and inquire, that would be your best bet.

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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Correct, it is a better plug and play than the other line (though I'm still looking at the RS620 in this regard). BUT, the approach Manni is taking should benefit 4500 owners just as much, if not more, than the other JVC owners. They all still have to try and conform somehow to the standards and since the 4500 can do laser dimming, it would make it better for blacks on top of it. No doubt in my mind, I'd be all over this with the 4500 if I still had it here.
You've inspired me to take action Kris! Sounds like my Friday night project if I get left alone to do it for few minutes after work . If I can persuade the Mrs to want to watch a 4K movie with me I'll get a decent opportunity to evaluate it as well.

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Correct, it is a better plug and play than the other line (though I'm still looking at the RS620 in this regard). BUT, the approach Manni is taking should benefit 4500 owners just as much, if not more, than the other JVC owners. They all still have to try and conform somehow to the standards and since the 4500 can do laser dimming, it would make it better for blacks on top of it. No doubt in my mind, I'd be all over this with the 4500 if I still had it here.
I downloaded and tried the 1100 - 800 - 4000 gamma. Interesting, but I think I like either the HDR preset, or strangely enough, that new gamma looks closer to SDR Rec. 709 to me. At least on my RS4500. No time to experiment more right now.
Missed your post while I was replying to others. There you go, I knew someone would probably get to it before me. Interesting stuff Craig. I was testing my Panny and Oppo yesterday briefly and redid the Panny pic settings back to base and looked at a couple of scenes in The Shallows. The chapter I had pre-cued was going into the shadowy night scene. I was pretty happy with results in HDR mid or high. Did see mode 2 dimming jump a couple of times noticeably.

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post #3999 of 5254 Old 02-17-2017, 06:13 AM
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post #4000 of 5254 Old 02-17-2017, 08:36 AM
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I definitely never said I didn't think it would work. My only comments were based around the curve being suitable across both the 5/6xx series and 4500. Listening to Kris it seems to be very likely there is a significant benefit to be had.



You'd have to speak to JVC as the 2 units they have, as I indicated in my recent posts both being tested and calibrated at Sydney production houses in last week (the second still at one this week). From what I know one unit would be back with JVC, not sure if they've loaned it out again since last week. Again I'd call them directly and inquire, that would be your best bet.



You've inspired me to take action Kris! Sounds like my Friday night project if I get left alone to do it for few minutes after work . If I can persuade the Mrs to want to watch a 4K movie with me I'll get a decent opportunity to evaluate it as well.



Missed your post while I was replying to others. There you go, I knew someone would probably get to it before me. Interesting stuff Craig. I was testing my Panny and Oppo yesterday briefly and redid the Panny pic settings back to base and looked at a couple of scenes in The Shallows. The chapter I had pre-cued was going into the shadowy night scene. I was pretty happy with results in HDR mid or high. Did see mode 2 dimming jump a couple of times noticeably.
At this point I'm just going to get Jeff in here to calibrate it.
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post #4001 of 5254 Old 02-17-2017, 09:00 AM
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At this point I'm just going to get Jeff in here to calibrate it.
Come on, where's your sense of adventure?
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At this point I'm just going to get Jeff in here to calibrate it.
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post #4004 of 5254 Old 02-17-2017, 11:56 AM
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Come on, where's your sense of adventure?
I loaded it, I tried it, it looked poor. What more do you want ? It actually looked closer to SDR Rec.709 than HDR. The thing is, I know Rec. 709 is good out of the box. So, I have better options right now. But I gave it a shot !
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I'm guessing it works better on JVC projectors other than the RS4500. But if I had unlimited time, maybe I could get better results.
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post #4006 of 5254 Old 02-17-2017, 12:01 PM
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I loaded it, I tried it, it looked poor. What more do you want ? It actually looked closer to SDR Rec.709 than HDR. The thing is, I know Rec. 709 is good out of the box. So, I have better options right now. But I gave it a shot !
Woops, thought you hadn't tried it
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Woops, thought you hadn't tried it
See post # 4010 !
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Go and demo real projectors instead or comparing images in a forum then
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It's grown rather quiet here.
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It's grown rather quiet here.
Shhh, we're busy watching movies.
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I used my new Sper Scientific light meter to re - measure my RS4500. Mind you that these numbers only apply to my setup and should be taken with a grain of salt. If I moved 8" closer to the projector, the numbers jump and I would have much higher numbers. This is mostly so I'll have an idea how bright I'm watching in MY room on MY screen with MY setup. Taken at the screen ( 122" 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve - 1.1 gain ), facing the projector from 14' , Natural mode, manual iris open, auto iris off -

Low laser - 615.64 lumens. That would give me 15 + foot lamberts.

Mid Laser - 1516.69 lumens. That would give me 38 foot lamberts !

High Laser - 2242.42 lumens. That would give me 56.22 foot lamberts - ha !

The way I've been watching it - Natural mode, Mid Laser, manual iris at -7, laser dimming mode 2 - 1104.90 lumens, 27.70 foot lamberts ! No wonder I thought it was bright ! I'm going to close down the iris and re - measure tonight - 18 or 20 foot lamberts is probably going to be better.
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post #4012 of 5254 Old 02-20-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I used my new Sper Scientific light meter to re - measure my RS4500. Mind you that these numbers only apply to my setup and should be taken with a grain of salt. If I moved 8" closer to the projector, the numbers jump and I would have much higher numbers. This is mostly so I'll have an idea how bright I'm watching in MY room on MY screen with MY setup. Taken at the screen ( 122" 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve - 1.1 gain ), facing the projector from 14' , Natural mode, manual iris open, auto iris off -

Low laser - 615.64 lumens. That would give me 15 + foot lamberts.

Mid Laser - 1516.69 lumens. That would give me 38 foot lamberts !

High Laser - 2242.42 lumens. That would give me 56.22 foot lamberts - ha !

The way I've been watching it - Natural mode, Mid Laser, manual iris at -7, laser dimming mode 2 - 1104.90 lumens, 27.70 foot lamberts ! No wonder I thought it was bright ! I'm going to close down the iris and re - measure tonight - 18 or 20 foot lamberts is probably going to be better.
So you are reading fc, converting to ftL using the assumed gain, right? And calculating lumens form the fc reading. The way your post read it sounded like you were doing something different.
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post #4013 of 5254 Old 02-20-2017, 06:36 PM
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So you are reading fc, converting to ftL using the assumed gain, right? And calculating lumens form the fc reading. The way your post read it sounded like you were doing something different.
Correct - and assuming that my Stewart Cima Neve is 1.1 gain, although Jeff at Accucal measured it a bit higher. It just good to try and get things in the ballpark, without too much guess work. I'll see what Jeff measures with his much better ( and more expensive ) equipment when he calibrates it in a few weeks.
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Correct - and assuming that my Stewart Cima Neve is 1.1 gain, although Jeff at Accucal measured it a bit higher. It just good to try and get things in the ballpark, without too much guess work. I'll see what Jeff measures with his much better ( and more expensive ) equipment when he calibrates it in a few weeks.
Craig, out of curiosity, how do you add in the gain to calculate the lumens from fc? I had enough trouble working out the fc to Lumens formula correctly . I might pull out my old meter again and do some fresh measurements and try to calc my set up adjusted for the screen gain.
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Craig, out of curiosity, how do you add in the gain to calculate the lumens from fc? I had enough trouble working out the fc to Lumens formula correctly . I might pull out my old meter again and do some fresh measurements and try to calc my set up adjusted for the screen gain.
Once you know how many lumens are hitting your screen, you multiply by the gain ( x 1.1 in my case ) and divide by the square footage of your screen.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...ojector-5.html

See post 121, but Stanger89 has a simpler method in the following post.
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Once you know how many lumens are hitting your screen, you multiply by the gain ( x 1.1 in my case ) and divide by the square footage of your screen.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...ojector-5.html

See post 121, but Stanger89 has a simpler method in the following post.
Great, thanks Craig. I'll definitely utilise that info! Cheers
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Great, thanks Craig. I'll definitely utilise that info! Cheers
I found an old note from 2 -22- 2007, when I first got my light meter. I had thought my Optoma H79 was a bit dim at the time. 244 lumens, 6.13 foot lamberts. It was then and there I swore to - A: never guess how bright my projector was, to actually measure it, and B: never watch a dim picture again ( I sold the Optoma and got a DPI dVision 1080p projector with twin 300 watt lamps )!
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post #4018 of 5254 Old 02-21-2017, 02:27 PM
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Great! I will take a look and see if it makes a difference!
So what did you find out? Was the contrast performance affected by the location of the bright white boxes?
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Go and demo real projectors instead or comparing images in a forum then
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Finally received a set of vents for the Z1. I've only switched the unit on for a few mins and not sat down for any actual viewing. As suggested by other owners and Kris, I do think they've helped change the pitch of the fan noise in good way. But I'll reserve judgement till I've spent real time with them fitted.

In more interesting news. I was informed by JVC, that the factory are about to make an official announcement about several issues. I was passed on the actual communication about this announcement which suffers from bad 'Engrish', however I got the gist. Without cut and pasting word for word here, these are the main takeaways from the initial statement : "official statement for DLA-Z1's several issues", which was due for release last Friday, but was unable to done within that dead line (insert very bad Engrish version of that explanation here), is the following line : "the root cause is rather deep and difficult to expain clearly sooner actually."

It seems they want to get the information across as clearly as possible as they are concerned about website forum feedback and rumors, which is fair enough. So I imagine we'll hear something in the next week. I have to say I'm more than a bit interested in what they have to say when they do. It sounds very much like they have taken on board the feedback from @ARROW-AV and quite possibly some of mine along with no doubt a few others around the globe.


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