JVC 4k Native Laser projector (confirm) - Page 145 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4321 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Sony has always given excellent and immediate service for all my needs and issues. I have asked about firmware updates for the RS600 that were included in the RS620 and was given absolute no without hesitation. Sony had issues with the software on the VW665 and provided the updates included with the VW675 without question. Did this on the VW1000 to VW1100 as I understand. My RS600 dropped dramatically in value once the RS620 was introduced 6 months into purchase and they flat refuse to provide the firmware . The JVC rep I have spoken with is a really nice person and a pleasure to speak with. Very helpful with some of the issues I have encountered and provided some of the best settings I have tried thus far. He was quick to explain they will not provide updates when asked however, and that is a JVC corporate decision, certainly not his.
HDR has been a mess on all projector brands, unfortunately. Maybe you forget that the RS600 came out ( and no doubt was designed well ahead ) before any 4K UHD Blu Ray players were even available. Let's not forget the entire " guaranteed 18Gbps 4K compatible " HDMI cable clusterf##k ! I'm guessing there are too many variables and too much risk of creating expensive problems ( like Sony bricking the VW5000 type problems ) to create new software for older machines. New projectors with new hardware and firmware specifically designed for HDR is how all projector manufacturers are correcting this. Otherwise there would be new firmware for the VW600 I had to enable HDR.

As far as your RS600 losing value, that's just the way of the electronics world. Like buying a new car, and watching it drop in value in the first 50 feet as you drive off the dealer car lot. Now, if you buy projectors to keep them and watch them for years, it doesn't matter. I just had someone call yesterday, thinking about upgrading from their 5 year old RS15. They are doing it right. " Watch it like your stole it " !
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post #4322 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 09:57 AM
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It's more interesting that the VW5000 is taking a minute to sync - that's way longer than JVC's sync times.
It doesn't take anywhere near that? Who said that?

The Sony takes about 8-10seconds to sync 1080P and 4K/24.

It takes about 20 seconds to sync 4k/60, which was suppose to be sped up in the last firmware update. But luckily I didnt do the last one.
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post #4323 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Fair and balanced is fine. But let's try and remember why there have been 4-5 updates over the past year. Like the RS4500, the 5000ES was not a "polished" projector upon initial shipment. They have since fixed some issues/bugs and improved the performance in a few key areas. I only want to point this out because the way I read your post makes it seem like you're saying Sony support is better because of all the updates. Wouldn't it be better to say Sony is better if they didn't have to update the unit at all? JVC's eshift units don't/didn't need as many firmware updates simply because they're normally much more polished projectors when released compared to something like the 5000ES. I'm just trying to put things into perspective here. HDR on the the last generation units was implemented and designed before the HDR standards were finalized. The first firmware on the units when they shipped had the peak nit point set to 10,000 nits, because JVC thought Dolby Vision was going to be used when UHD BD was first released. That's how early on HDR was being designed for those units. They quickly released a firmware to fix that and brought it to the HDR10 standards after the units were released. The newest units have better out of the box HDR support. This is no different than the 675ES from Sony. It took Sony 10 months to get the 665ES up to snuff with HDR on it's units with firmware updates. I don't really see where the "JVC has never been good about issues firmware/software updates" argument turns out to be true? Yes the last generation units don't get the same out of the box HDR performance that the newest units get but why release new projectors if there's nothing to upgrade to? You didn't see the 665ES get the same RC and HLG HDR support and yet I don't see you faulting Sony for that? Again, I'm just trying to put things into perspective here, not start an argument.
I totally agree Sony released firmware updates to address bugs/issues. I have been very forthcoming about issues I had early on like banding and issues with HDR. There is no doubt the updates were released to continue to perfect the unit, but also to add additional features.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you in regards to the JVC being more polished. The JVC required firmware updates to deal with bugs, HDR, and to add the Rec2020 colorspace. Sony did require some of the same updates, but some of the later updates, just like the one a couple weeks ago, is not even necessary at this point in time.

Sony retro-actively added HDR sliders not only to the 5000ES and the 675ES, but also last years 665ES. They didn't add HLG, but for now thats useless anyways.

Im not trying to get into Sony is better than JVC or JVC is better than Sony debate. Because I have made it abundantly clear I love both brands.

My biggest issue with JVC and the RS600, is that they could easily fix the HDR gamma settings with a firmware update. To force someone to buy a new RS620, because the RS600 HDR settings are basically un-usable, is frankly rediculous. I don't expect them to update projectors 2 or 3 years old, but for the 400/500/600 series which wasn't even a year old, JVC should have provided updated firmware to be more in line with the 420/520/620. Especially since everyone was originally told, there was no new JVC lamp based units coming this year. I don't think it would hurt JVC in sales, to support their products a little longer. Instead of de-valuing everyones 400/500/600, due to the release of the 420/520/620, why not just keep the 400/500/600 series current. I agree that Sony should do the same too, except for the fact that the Sony 675ES did get an HDMI upgrade to handle 4K/60 4:2:0 10bit HDR, which it desperately needed over the 4k/60 4:2:0 8 bit on the 665.

My two biggest issues with the RS600, is the fact that they refuse to release a firmware to make HDR more usable, (yes I know there are custom ones that people have created, which is great) and the fact that the unit can't auto-switch to the correct colorspace. The RS600 could easily do both of these items. I still love my RS600 but those are two very frustrating items.

The RS4500 has two big issues, which we are expecting to be addressed soon. The dynamic laser dimming, and the fan noise. But there is also another annoying issue with the RS4500. Just like the RS600 it won't automatically switch between Rec709 and Rec2020. I hope they also deal with than in a future update. The menu tells you what colorspace the unit is receiving, so it makes no sense why it cant switch. Yes it will switch if there is HDR present, but it wont switch between SDR rec709 and SDR rec2020.

The Sony will auto detect both HDR and colorspace independently which is nice. Obviously its not something thats a "Must Have" item, but it is nice.

They are all great units, but its not any secret that JVC very rarely provides firmware updates for their units. Its also no secret that the Sony projectors are much easier to update. Just insert USB thumb drive. At least the RS4500 has moved away from RS-232. Hopefully the rest of the JVC line will soon.

So I think that pretty fair to both sides, your thoughts?
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post #4324 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 10:45 AM
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As far as your RS600 losing value, that's just the way of the electronics world. Like buying a new car, and watching it drop in value in the first 50 feet as you drive off the dealer car lot. Now, if you buy projectors to keep them and watch them for years, it doesn't matter. I just had someone call yesterday, thinking about upgrading from their 5 year old RS15. They are doing it right. " Watch it like your stole it " !
Trust me, I know about losing on cars all too well.. Recently bought a new Mercedes S-coupe, spent close to $200K, probably lost $50K the minute I drove off the lot.

And I have lost tens of thousands, if not more, on projectors. But to me, thats just the price I pay for something I'm passionate about.
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post #4325 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 10:54 AM
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Trust me, I know about losing on cars all too well.. Recently bought a new Mercedes S-coupe, spent close to $200K, probably lost $50K the minute I drove off the lot.

And I have lost tens of thousands, if not more, on projectors. But to me, thats just the price I pay for something I'm passionate about.
And guess how much my 6 figure wine collection will be worth after it passes through my ( and my friends ) kidneys over the next 10 - 20 years ? And it will be worth every penny! If you are ever in the Sacramento CA area, please bring your kidneys and come help !
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post #4326 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 11:04 AM
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UPS literally drug the unit to the door.
I experienced this once from UPS before as well. I opened the front door and he was rolling the projector up my porch. Ever since then, I pick up my packages from them. I also know someone who works for UPS and he tells me 'they could not give a sh*t' about how things are handled. So just a warning to everyone about UPS.
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post #4327 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 11:29 AM
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And guess how much my 6 figure wine collection will be worth after it passes through my ( and my friends ) kidneys over the next 10 - 20 years ? And it will be worth every penny! If you are ever in the Sacramento CA area, please bring your kidneys and come help !
Sounds like a plan!!!
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post #4328 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 11:44 AM
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I experienced this once from UPS before as well. I opened the front door and he was rolling the projector up my porch. Ever since then, I pick up my packages from them. I also know someone who works for UPS and he tells me 'they could not give a sh*t' about how things are handled. So just a warning to everyone about UPS.
UPS and FedEx - " equal opportunity destroyers ".

Here comes your new projector !
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post #4329 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 11:49 AM
 
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I totally agree Sony released firmware updates to address bugs/issues. I have been very forthcoming about issues I had early on like banding and issues with HDR. There is no doubt the updates were released to continue to perfect the unit, but also to add additional features.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you in regards to the JVC being more polished. The JVC required firmware updates to deal with bugs, HDR, and to add the Rec2020 colorspace. Sony did require some of the same updates, but some of the later updates, just like the one a couple weeks ago, is not even necessary at this point in time.

Sony retro-actively added HDR sliders not only to the 5000ES and the 675ES, but also last years 665ES. They didn't add HLG, but for now thats useless anyways.

Im not trying to get into Sony is better than JVC or JVC is better than Sony debate. Because I have made it abundantly clear I love both brands.

My biggest issue with JVC and the RS600, is that they could easily fix the HDR gamma settings with a firmware update. To force someone to buy a new RS620, because the RS600 HDR settings are basically un-usable, is frankly rediculous. I don't expect them to update projectors 2 or 3 years old, but for the 400/500/600 series which wasn't even a year old, JVC should have provided updated firmware to be more in line with the 420/520/620. Especially since everyone was originally told, there was no new JVC lamp based units coming this year. I don't think it would hurt JVC in sales, to support their products a little longer. Instead of de-valuing everyones 400/500/600, due to the release of the 420/520/620, why not just keep the 400/500/600 series current. I agree that Sony should do the same too, except for the fact that the Sony 675ES did get an HDMI upgrade to handle 4K/60 4:2:0 10bit HDR, which it desperately needed over the 4k/60 4:2:0 8 bit on the 665.

My two biggest issues with the RS600, is the fact that they refuse to release a firmware to make HDR more usable, (yes I know there are custom ones that people have created, which is great) and the fact that the unit can't auto-switch to the correct colorspace. The RS600 could easily do both of these items. I still love my RS600 but those are two very frustrating items.

The RS4500 has two big issues, which we are expecting to be addressed soon. The dynamic laser dimming, and the fan noise. But there is also another annoying issue with the RS4500. Just like the RS600 it won't automatically switch between Rec709 and Rec2020. I hope they also deal with than in a future update. The menu tells you what colorspace the unit is receiving, so it makes no sense why it cant switch. Yes it will switch if there is HDR present, but it wont switch between SDR rec709 and SDR rec2020.

The Sony will auto detect both HDR and colorspace independently which is nice. Obviously its not something thats a "Must Have" item, but it is nice.

They are all great units, but its not any secret that JVC very rarely provides firmware updates for their units. Its also no secret that the Sony projectors are much easier to update. Just insert USB thumb drive. At least the RS4500 has moved away from RS-232. Hopefully the rest of the JVC line will soon.

So I think that pretty fair to both sides, your thoughts?
Personally speaking, I do think at launch the eshift JVCs have been more well polished than recent Sony releases. I mean that more in terms of bugs and poor operation of included/advertised features. The 665ES had a whole slew of issues at initial release. Upon release Reality Creation had an issue where only the first 10 steps out of 100 would actually do anything to the image, enabling the mastered in 4K feature would visible soften the image, the dynamic iris algorithms were terrible resulting in very visible operation, and HDR setup and implementation was far less than ideal. The 5000ES needed updates to fix the dynamic iris algorithms, there were visilbe issues with banding and posterization, it needed many updates to further enhance HDR, ect.

Other than the raised black level issue with HDR and banding with CMD enabled, I can't really think of anything buggy that JVC advertised as an included feature. With the use of the auto-calibrate feature you at least have the opportunity to fix the gamma issues that you're referencing. If you haven't yet, I highly suggest you upload and try a few that can be found here on the forum. I think that will remedy some of the issues you're experiencing with HDR on your RS600. I do agree that auto-detecting HDR on these models would have been killer too, but it's hard to fault them when they never said it was an included feature.

Despite what some on the forum think, I have no hesitation owning a Sony projector. I have no loyalty to JVC other than to it's raw image quality and feature set that these units include. If the tides were turned and Sony was the one releasing these DiLA projectors and JVC were the ones releasing these SXRD projectors, I'd be saying the same things with the exception being the brand names being switched. If Sony "wows" me in the future and fixes the issues I have with SXRD, I may just own a Sony projector.
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post #4330 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 12:21 PM
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Personally speaking, I do think at launch the eshift JVCs have been more well polished than recent Sony releases. I mean that more in terms of bugs and poor operation of included/advertised features. The 665ES had a whole slew of issues at initial release. Upon release Reality Creation had an issue where only the first 10 steps out of 100 would actually do anything to the image, enabling the mastered in 4K feature would visible soften the image, the dynamic iris algorithms were terrible resulting in very visible operation, and HDR setup and implementation was far less than ideal. The 5000ES needed updates to fix the dynamic iris algorithms, there were visilbe issues with banding and posterization, it needed many updates to further enhance HDR, ect.

Other than the raised black level issue with HDR and banding with CMD enabled, I can't really think of anything buggy that JVC advertised as an included feature. With the use of the auto-calibrate feature you at least have the opportunity to fix the gamma issues that you're referencing. If you haven't yet, I highly suggest you upload and try a few that can be found here on the forum. I think that will remedy some of the issues you're experiencing with HDR on your RS600. I do agree that auto-detecting HDR on these models would have been killer too, but it's hard to fault them when they never said it was an included feature.

Despite what some on the forum think, I have no hesitation owning a Sony projector. I have no loyalty to JVC other than to it's raw image quality and feature set that these units include. If the tides were turned and Sony was the one releasing these DiLA projectors and JVC were the ones releasing these SXRD projectors, I'd be saying the same things with the exception being the brand names being switched. If Sony "wows" me in the future and fixes the issues I have with SXRD, I may just own a Sony projector.
I think thats a fair assessment. I never spent any real time with the 665ES, so I cant speak to its flaws. There were some with the 5000ES, no doubt. I guess I'm more satisfied with the current feature set / function of my 5000ES over the RS600. But its not exactly a fair comparison since the Sony is about 5 times the price. But there is no doubt the RS600 throws an incredible image. Same goes for the RS4500. There are still some issues to work through, but I'm confident when those have been address, I will be more than satisfied.

I keep wanting to setup a dual stack RS600, just to see how it would compare to the RS4500 or the 5000ES, since the native contrast on the RS600 is clearly much better than those other two units.
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post #4331 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 12:44 PM
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Personally speaking, I do think at launch the eshift JVCs have been more well polished than recent Sony releases. I mean that more in terms of bugs and poor operation of included/advertised features. The 665ES had a whole slew of issues at initial release. Upon release Reality Creation had an issue where only the first 10 steps out of 100 would actually do anything to the image, enabling the mastered in 4K feature would visible soften the image, the dynamic iris algorithms were terrible resulting in very visible operation, and HDR setup and implementation was far less than ideal. The 5000ES needed updates to fix the dynamic iris algorithms, there were visilbe issues with banding and posterization, it needed many updates to further enhance HDR, ect.

Other than the raised black level issue with HDR and banding with CMD enabled, I can't really think of anything buggy that JVC advertised as an included feature. With the use of the auto-calibrate feature you at least have the opportunity to fix the gamma issues that you're referencing. If you haven't yet, I highly suggest you upload and try a few that can be found here on the forum. I think that will remedy some of the issues you're experiencing with HDR on your RS600. I do agree that auto-detecting HDR on these models would have been killer too, but it's hard to fault them when they never said it was an included feature.

Despite what some on the forum think, I have no hesitation owning a Sony projector. I have no loyalty to JVC other than to it's raw image quality and feature set that these units include. If the tides were turned and Sony was the one releasing these DiLA projectors and JVC were the ones releasing these SXRD projectors, I'd be saying the same things with the exception being the brand names being switched. If Sony "wows" me in the future and fixes the issues I have with SXRD, I may just own a Sony projector.
@ccool96 accurate and even keeled as always. Your point is that Sony has provided updates for all machines including the ones left behind. JVC has left their owners with a projector that in less than a year was replaced mid stream ( not the two year cycle) and refuses to provide the updates just to force buyers into the new equipment. Sony fixed their issues and then provided the fix to the older machines instead of leaving their customers. I have one of those RS600 units and I'm not happy with this treatment either and you should voice this concern. After warranty I have no issue, within 6 months of purchase this is totally wrong.

@Seegs108 the usual as always. JVC is polished upon delivery, the Sony way more problems , making sure to detail and point out every last one of the Sony issues and then claim not to be loyal to any brand. Amen brother, we're with you all the way. Oxymoron , that's the word that comes to mind for some reason.
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post #4332 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 12:54 PM
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@ccool96 accurate and even keeled as always. Your point is that Sony has provided updates for all machines including the ones left behind. JVC has left their owners with a projector that in less than a year was replaced mid stream ( not the two year cycle) and refuses to provide the updates just to force buyers into the new equipment. Sony fixed their issues and then provided the fix to the older machines instead of leaving their customers. I have one of those RS600 units and I'm not happy with this treatment either and you should voice this concern. After warranty I have no issue, within 6 months of purchase this is totally wrong.
To be honest, has JVC ever said they were on a two year cycle? For years, they were introducing new models annually.
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post #4333 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 01:06 PM
 
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..... You didn't see the 665ES get the same RC and HLG HDR support and yet I don't see you faulting Sony for that? Again, I'm just trying to put things into perspective here, not start an argument.
For further perspective, that's because the 665's older Main Board (Q Board) can't support it, which is new on the 675ES and which can support it.

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post #4334 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Fair and balanced is fine. But let's try and remember why there have been 4-5 updates over the past year. Like the RS4500, the 5000ES was not a "polished" projector upon initial shipment. They have since fixed some issues/bugs and improved the performance in a few key areas. I only want to point this out because the way I read your post makes it seem like you're saying Sony support is better because of all the updates. Wouldn't it be better to say Sony is better if they didn't have to update the unit at all? JVC's eshift units don't/didn't need as many firmware updates simply because they're normally much more polished projectors when released compared to something like the 5000ES. I'm just trying to put things into perspective here. HDR on the the last generation units was implemented and designed before the HDR standards were finalized. The first firmware on the units when they shipped had the peak nit point set to 10,000 nits, because JVC thought Dolby Vision was going to be used when UHD BD was first released. That's how early on HDR was being designed for those units. They quickly released a firmware to fix that and brought it to the HDR10 standards after the units were released. The newest units have better out of the box HDR support. This is no different than the 675ES from Sony. It took Sony 10 months to get the 665ES up to snuff with HDR on it's units with firmware updates. I don't really see where the "JVC has never been good about issues firmware/software updates" argument turns out to be true? Yes the last generation units don't get the same out of the box HDR performance that the newest units get but why release new projectors if there's nothing to upgrade to? You didn't see the 665ES get the same RC and HLG HDR support and yet I don't see you faulting Sony for that? Again, I'm just trying to put things into perspective here, not start an argument.
Maybe you should see one before stating this. No firmware updates have been issued yet and everybody that has seen my RS4500 has been impressed with the performance. Kris Deering said the same thing. There is a firmware coming and it is not to fix things that are not working. They are to improve things farther.
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post #4335 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 01:47 PM
 
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@ccool96 accurate and even keeled as always. Your point is that Sony has provided updates for all machines including the ones left behind. JVC has left their owners with a projector that in less than a year was replaced mid stream ( not the two year cycle) and refuses to provide the updates just to force buyers into the new equipment. Sony fixed their issues and then provided the fix to the older machines instead of leaving their customers. I have one of those RS600 units and I'm not happy with this treatment either and you should voice this concern. After warranty I have no issue, within 6 months of purchase this is totally wrong.

@Seegs108 the usual as always. JVC is polished upon delivery, the Sony way more problems , making sure to detail and point out every last one of the Sony issues and then claim not to be loyal to any brand. Amen brother, we're with you all the way. Oxymoron , that's the word that comes to mind for some reason.
I'm sorry, but what did I say that was incorrect? Did the 665ES not have the issues I mentioned? Did it not take Sony 10 months of firmware updates to rectify all of the issues? I'm sorry you can't tell the truth apart from brand loyalty.
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Maybe you should see one before stating this. No firmware updates have been issued yet and everybody that has seen my RS4500 has been impressed with the performance. Kris Deering said the same thing. There is a firmware coming and it is not to fix things that are not working. They are to improve things farther.
Is the new firmware not fixing issues with the unit that people have rather large problems with? I would call that less polished than previous model releases from JVC. Most people say that they find the dynamic contrast system to be quite visible and that the unit becomes too loud in a "normal" theater setting. I think I'm being more than fair with this assessment. I'm not saying the projector doesn't throw a great image, as I'm sure it does, but a more polished dynamic contrast implementation will take it a new level I'm sure.

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post #4337 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Is the new firmware not fixing issues with the unit that people have rather large problems with? I would call that less polished than previous model releases from JVC. Most people say that they find the dynamic contrast system to be quite visible and that the unit becomes too loud in a "normal" theater setting. I think I'm being more than fair with this assessment.
If your room does not get hot, then the projector is not loud. I have had several people (two forum members in the last two days) over to my HT and none of them have thought the projector loud. I am sure they expected a much louder fan noise. An expectation based on what they read on the forum. It is not the projectors fault if you are using it in a room that is not designed to cool it properly. Would you say a Barco 6P laser needed a firmware update, if you used it in your theater, rather than in a dedicated booth or would you say it was not set up properly? When I first got my RS4500, I also thought it was on the loud side, but after taking starting and ending temperature measurements, it was obvious what the problem was. I corrected my room and now I have no problem with the fan noise. Now if JVC can make it even quieter, I will gladly take that, just like I would take an improvement in any area for any projector. JVC specifications tell you 750 watts for the RS4500, so design/make provisions accordingly. The lower level JVC's are 380 watts. Not near the same heat output.

I use the iris on mode 1 for BD and off for UHD. While I wish that the dynamic dimming system was better, I have that same wish for all the other dynamic dimming systems that I have seen.
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post #4338 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I totally agree Sony released firmware updates to address bugs/issues. I have been very forthcoming about issues I had early on like banding and issues with HDR. There is no doubt the updates were released to continue to perfect the unit, but also to add additional features.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you in regards to the JVC being more polished. The JVC required firmware updates to deal with bugs, HDR, and to add the Rec2020 colorspace. Sony did require some of the same updates, but some of the later updates, just like the one a couple weeks ago, is not even necessary at this point in time.

Sony retro-actively added HDR sliders not only to the 5000ES and the 675ES, but also last years 665ES. They didn't add HLG, but for now thats useless anyways.

Im not trying to get into Sony is better than JVC or JVC is better than Sony debate. Because I have made it abundantly clear I love both brands.

My biggest issue with JVC and the RS600, is that they could easily fix the HDR gamma settings with a firmware update. To force someone to buy a new RS620, because the RS600 HDR settings are basically un-usable, is frankly rediculous. I don't expect them to update projectors 2 or 3 years old, but for the 400/500/600 series which wasn't even a year old, JVC should have provided updated firmware to be more in line with the 420/520/620. Especially since everyone was originally told, there was no new JVC lamp based units coming this year. I don't think it would hurt JVC in sales, to support their products a little longer. Instead of de-valuing everyones 400/500/600, due to the release of the 420/520/620, why not just keep the 400/500/600 series current. I agree that Sony should do the same too, except for the fact that the Sony 675ES did get an HDMI upgrade to handle 4K/60 4:2:0 10bit HDR, which it desperately needed over the 4k/60 4:2:0 8 bit on the 665.

My two biggest issues with the RS600, is the fact that they refuse to release a firmware to make HDR more usable, (yes I know there are custom ones that people have created, which is great) and the fact that the unit can't auto-switch to the correct colorspace. The RS600 could easily do both of these items. I still love my RS600 but those are two very frustrating items.

The RS4500 has two big issues, which we are expecting to be addressed soon. The dynamic laser dimming, and the fan noise. But there is also another annoying issue with the RS4500. Just like the RS600 it won't automatically switch between Rec709 and Rec2020. I hope they also deal with than in a future update. The menu tells you what colorspace the unit is receiving, so it makes no sense why it cant switch. Yes it will switch if there is HDR present, but it wont switch between SDR rec709 and SDR rec2020.

The Sony will auto detect both HDR and colorspace independently which is nice. Obviously its not something thats a "Must Have" item, but it is nice.

They are all great units, but its not any secret that JVC very rarely provides firmware updates for their units. Its also no secret that the Sony projectors are much easier to update. Just insert USB thumb drive. At least the RS4500 has moved away from RS-232. Hopefully the rest of the JVC line will soon.

So I think that pretty fair to both sides, your thoughts?
I took measurement of my RS4500 on medium and the RS400 in high lamp with E-shift off. My RS4500 is a little bit quieter. I pop in a UHD BD and my RS4500 automatically goes to medium power Dynamic dimming off and manual iris fully open. Pop in a regular BD and my 4500 automaticlly goes to medium power, dynamic dimming mode 1 and manual iris to -11. It remembers the settings automaticlly. All you have to do is select the setting for BD one time and select the setting for UHD one time. Now if you change any of those settings, then it will use the new settings each time. It remembers what was last used. I am not talking about any custom user modes here either.
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post #4339 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Is the new firmware not fixing issues with the unit that people have rather large problems with? I would call that less polished than previous model releases from JVC. Most people say that they find the dynamic contrast system to be quite visible and that the unit becomes too loud in a "normal" theater setting. I think I'm being more than fair with this assessment. I'm not saying the projector doesn't throw a great image, as I'm sure it does, but a more polished dynamic contrast implementation will take it a new level I'm sure.
Sure, " a more polished dynamic contrast implementation will take it a new level " - that's true. It works now, but how well depends on your setup and implementation. Can't really comment on the noise level, thank goodness.

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post #4340 of 5254 Old 03-28-2017, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If your room does not get hot, then the projector is not loud. I have had several people (two forum members in the last two days) over to my HT and none of them have thought the projector loud. I am sure they expected a much louder fan noise. An expectation based on what they read on the forum. It is not the projectors fault if you are using it in a room that is not designed to cool it properly. Would you say a Barco 6P laser needed a firmware update, if you used it in your theater, rather than in a dedicated booth or would you say it was not set up properly? When I first got my RS4500, I also thought it was on the loud side, but after taking starting and ending temperature measurements, it was obvious what the problem was. I corrected my room and now I have no problem with the fan noise. Now if JVC can make it even quieter, I will gladly take that, just like I would take an improvement in any area for any projector. JVC specifications tell you 750 watts for the RS4500, so design/make provisions accordingly. The lower level JVC's are 380 watts. Not near the same heat output.

I use the iris on mode 1 for BD and off for UHD. While I wish that the dynamic dimming system was better, I have that same wish for all the other dynamic dimming systems that I have seen.
I'm sorry but I find this post to be somewhat misleading. The projector certainly has a few issues. That's why owners are anxiously waiting for the firmware update. Its a great projector, but its not flawless.

I keep my house super cool. 66 at night and 70 during the day. Since when does having a projector mounted to the ceiling in a wide open room, that is cooled to 72 degrees, constitute a faulty room design? It doesn't.

Comparing the JVC to a Barco cinema unit is like comparing apples to camels. The two have nothing in common. My Barco 4K DCI units, did require external venting and it had a place to attach an 8" duct. This projector also wasn't designed to be placed in a HT directly over your head, but in a dedicated projector booth. The Barco projector weighed 350 lbs and was the size of a refrigerator.

Was the JVC designed to require a hush box or projection booth? Not to my knowledge.

Also, the dynamic dimming is far from perfect, or anywhere near as good as the best dynamic systems. It is basically unusable, since it seems to react a split second too late, causing a flash when switching from bright to dark scenes. I certainly expect JVC will improve this, and when they do, that will be fantastic.

There seems to be this push to convince people the RS4500 is flawless, and that's not the case. It's a great projector, but there is still plenty of room for improvement. And I have no doubt JVC will improve it.

This projector has limits like all units do. If you have a 12' wide or smaller screen, especially one with a 1.0-1.3 gain, where you can run in mid-Laser power, and even close the iris some, you have a perfect setup. If you have to run the projector in high-Laser power, I would hope you have the unit in a dedicated projection area or in a hush-box. Hopefully the firmware update will help make this no longer an issue.

I have spent most of my time comparing the JVC to the Sony 5000, and the JVC compared very well. It's no where near as bright, but not everyone needs the sheer light output the Sony is capable of. Contrast between to two units is very similar. I actually watched almost an entire movie with the left side of the image being projected by the RS4500 and the right side projected by the 5000ES. To me this is the best way to really compare the two units.

Both projectors are exceptionally great units, and in a blind split screen setup, with the Sony Laser dialed down to equal the JVC, I don't think anyone could distinguish between the two units. That speaks very well of the JVC which is significantly less money.

I finally removed my RS600 from my bedroom, so I could do direct comparisons between the RS4500 and the RS600. The first thing you notice, right off the bat, is how much better the contrast is on the RS600. This is especially the case with low APL style movies like Harry Potter.

It's clear the biggest competitor to the RS4500 is the RS500/600 and RS520/620. When you look at what those units can do for the price, it's astonishing.

I really want to do a dual stack RS600 to compare against the RS4500. I think that would be an incredible test. While in theory that sounds great, I have my doubts about keeping two units lined up perfectly, especially over a lengthy period of time. Not to mention, you would have to sacrifice the use of lens memories. But the thought of a dual stack, which could easily produce 2500-3000 calibrated lumens with a native contrast in the 80k:1 range and the dynamic contrast 10 times higher, would be impressive.

I have never been one of those guys who weighs sequential contrast above all other aspects. Especially with large screens, there were other equally important issues, like proper amount of light output, lens quality, uniformity, etc.

The good news is that projectors continue to be brighter and brighter and capable of lighting larger and larger screens, while at the same time maintaining high sequential contrast. Now we just need Sony and JVC to get the sequential contrast up significantly with these true 4K chips, and that will really be the last missing piece to the puzzle.

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Chris, if I'm ever in Florida, I NEED to make a visit! It would be a ton of fun to have access to all of these units at once. I was supposed to be in Miami over the weekend at Ultra Music Festival but I couldn't convince enough people to make a trip of it. At most I normally have 2-3 units here, but rarely do I get a chance to see all of the top of line models at once. Recently I had a Sim2 C3X Lumis, Sony 665ES and a JVC RS500 here. It was a ton of fun being able to swap back and forth doing A/B tests. I can only imagine how much fun you have with these laser units.
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Chris, if I'm ever in Florida, I NEED to make a visit! It would be a ton of fun to have access to all of these units at once. I was supposed to be in Miami over the weekend at Ultra Music Festival but I couldn't convince enough people to make a trip of it. At most I normally have 2-3 units here, but rarely do I get a chance to see all of the top of line models at once. Recently I had a Sim2 C3X Lumis, Sony 665ES and a JVC RS500 here. It was a ton of fun being able to swap back and forth doing A/B tests. I can only imagine how much fun you have with these laser units.


You are welcome anytime!

This is a fun hobby.

I have loved projectors ever since I saw my very first CRT projector years and years ago.

I think I was about 12 years old, and I remember thinking, one day I will have one of my own.

Lucky digital projectors became the norm by the time I was old enough, and had my own money to spend.


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I'm sorry, but what did I say that was incorrect? Did the 665ES not have the issues I mentioned? Did it not take Sony 10 months of firmware updates to rectify all of the issues? I'm sorry you can't tell the truth apart from brand loyalty.

You claiming as always " but I'm not loyal to any brand." It's a contradiction and sorry if you cannot figure it out , even if I try to point this out EVERY time.
Good luck with that .


JVC failed on the software updates for the RS600 where Sony provided updates for the previous near identical models . That was the point , fact plain and simple. I can bring up every issue under the about JVC or Sony but that will not change these facts , the point the poster was making when you regurgitated the same garbage you always do.


See how ccool96 approaches his post . As always made a valid point, no trashing and finished with "I love both brands ." Can you see the different approach?
I doubt it.
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I'm sorry but I find this post to be somewhat misleading. The projector certainly has a few issues. That's why owners are anxiously waiting for the firmware update. Its a great projector, but its not flawless.

I keep my house super cool. 66 at night and 70 during the day. Since when does having a projector mounted to the ceiling in a wide open room, that is cooled to 72 degrees, constitute a faulty room design? It doesn't.

Comparing the JVC to a Barco cinema unit is like comparing apples to camels. The two have nothing in common. My Barco 4K DCI units, did require external venting and it had a place to attach an 8" duct. This projector also wasn't designed to be placed in a HT directly over your head, but in a dedicated projector booth. The Barco projector weighed 350 lbs and was the size of a refrigerator.

Was the JVC designed to require a hush box or projection booth? Not to my knowledge.

Also, the dynamic dimming is far from perfect, or anywhere near as good as the best dynamic systems. It is basically unusable, since it seems to react a split second too late, causing a flash when switching from bright to dark scenes. I certainly expect JVC will improve this, and when they do, that will be fantastic.

There seems to be this push to convince people the RS4500 is flawless, and that's not the case. It's a great projector, but there is still plenty of room for improvement. And I have no doubt JVC will improve it.

This projector has limits like all units do. If you have a 12' wide or smaller screen, especially one with a 1.0-1.3 gain, where you can run in mid-Laser power, and even close the iris some, you have a perfect setup. If you have to run the projector in high-Laser power, I would hope you have the unit in a dedicated projection area or in a hush-box. Hopefully the firmware update will help make this no longer an issue.

I have spent most of my time comparing the JVC to the Sony 5000, and the JVC compared very well. It's no where near as bright, but not everyone needs the sheer light output the Sony is capable of. Contrast between to two units is very similar. I actually watched almost an entire movie with the left side of the image being projected by the RS4500 and the right side projected by the 5000ES. To me this is the best way to really compare the two units.

Both projectors are exceptionally great units, and in a blind split screen setup, with the Sony Laser dialed down to equal the JVC, I don't think anyone could distinguish between the two units. That speaks very well of the JVC which is significantly less money.

I finally removed my RS600 from my bedroom, so I could do direct comparisons between the RS4500 and the RS600. The first thing you notice, right off the bat, is how much better the contrast is on the RS600. This is especially the case with low APL style movies like Harry Potter.

It's clear the biggest competitor to the RS4500 is the RS500/600 and RS520/620. When you look at what those units can do for the price, it's astonishing.

I really want to do a dual stack RS600 to compare against the RS4500. I think that would be an incredible test. While in theory that sounds great, I have my doubts about keeping two units lined up perfectly, especially over a lengthy period of time. Not to mention, you would have to sacrifice the use of lens memories. But the thought of a dual stack, which could easily produce 2500-3000 calibrated lumens with a native contrast in the 80k:1 range and the dynamic contrast 10 times higher, would be impressive.

I have never been one of those guys who weighs sequential contrast above all other aspects. Especially with large screens, there were other equally important issues, like proper amount of light output, lens quality, uniformity, etc.

The good news is that projectors continue to be brighter and brighter and capable of lighting larger and larger screens, while at the same time maintaining high sequential contrast. Now we just need Sony and JVC to get the sequential contrast up significantly with these true 4K chips, and that will really be the last missing piece to the puzzle.

I have never said this projector is perfect, but I have not been misleading. I took DB reading and provided them. My 4500 in medium power is quieter than an RS400 in high lamp with e-shift turned off. Also you say your room is 72 degrees. I am sure that is down where you are seated. What is the temperature at the projector, after running the projector for an hour and a half? Before I worked on my room, my RS4500 would ramp up some, even though the temperature was around 72 degrees at seat level. The temperature at the projector was much higher due to heat trapped around the ceiling. As soon as I was able to get rid of this band of heat around the ceiling, my RS4500 no longer ramped up. I have had two different forum members at my house in the last two days, GetGray and COACH2369. I started up my system about 20/30 minutes before GetGray arrived and he stayed around 45 minutes to an hour. Started my system 10/15 minutes before COACH2369 arrived and COACH2369 stayed about an hour and a half. Ask them how loud it sounded.

Most guys build their dedicated rooms without fully understanding what really is required in the way of cooling. The recommended air exchange rate for an HT is 8 to 10 exchanges per hour. I have been in a lot of HT rooms and hardly any of them meet this requirement. So cooling is often times a problem. The last theater that I have been in that met this standard is the Savoy. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...786-savoy.html would not have a problem mounting a 4500 in his room and having the fans on the projector ramp up. It just would not happen, because his room is designed to get rid of the heat.

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You claiming as always " but I'm not loyal to any brand." It's a contradiction and sorry if you cannot figure it out , even if I try to point this out EVERY time.
Good luck with that .


JVC failed on the software updates for the RS600 where Sony provided updates for the previous near identical models . That was the point , fact plain and simple. I can bring up every issue under the about JVC or Sony but that will not change these facts , the point the poster was making when you regurgitated the same garbage you always do.


See how ccool96 approaches his post . As always made a valid point, no trashing and finished with "I love both brands ." Can you see the different approach?
I doubt it.
If I were only loyal to one brand, why would I even bother buying projectors from other brands to compare them? I gave the 1100ES, 665ES, a few Epson and many 3 chip DLP projectors a chance. None of them impressed me as much as the current JVCs do. It's really as simple as that. The ironic part about this is that there are several people that I can think of off the top of my head that have only really had Sony's recently (over the past 3-5 years) but you seem to be fine with them posting pro-Sony stuff even though they haven't even done proper comparisons. I'll say again, I'm loyal to the raw image quality and feature-set the JVCs have, not the JVC logo on the projector chassis. If Sony, Epson or anyone else comes out with something that impresses me even more than the JVCs (and if I can afford it) I'll be saying bye-bye to my JVC projector immediately. I say this all the time, but if you guys were frequent posters 4 or 5 years ago, you'd know that I had nothing but contempt for JVC projectors. I hated them and thought, relatively speaking, there were much better images from several DLP projectors. At the time, I would only have a DLP unit. Things have changed. Right now JVC is the cream of the crop as far as I'm concerned and that's why my money goes to them.
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JVC 4k Native Laser projector (confirm)

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I have never said this projector is perfect, but I have not been misleading. I took DB reading and provided them. My 4500 in medium power is quieter than an RS400 in high lamp with e-shift turned off. Also you say your room is 72 degrees. I am sure that is down where you are seated. What is the temperature at the projector, after running the projector for an hour and a half? Before I worked on my room, my RS4500 would ramp up some, even though the temperature was around 72 degrees at seat level. The temperature at the projector was much higher due to heat trapped around the ceiling. As soon as I was able to get rid of this band of heat around the ceiling, my RS4500 no longer ramped up. I have had two different forum members at my house in the last two days, GetGray and COACH2369. I started up my system about 20/30 minutes before GetGray arrived and he stayed around 45 minutes to an hour. Started my system 10/15 minutes before COACH2369 arrived and COACH2369 stayed about an hour and a half. Ask them how loud it sounded.



Most guys build their dedicated rooms without fully understanding what really is required in the way of cooling. The recommended air exchange rate for an HT is 8 to 10 exchanges per hour. I have been in a lot of HT rooms and hardly any of them meet this requirement. So cooling is often times a problem. The last theater that I have been in that met this standard is the Savoy. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...786-savoy.html would not have a problem mounting a 4500 in his room and having the fans on the projector ramp up. It just would not happen, because his room is designed to get rid of the heat.


Personally this is why I built my theaters so that the units are not in the theater room itself. One has a dedicated projection booth and equipment closet, and the other has the projector recessed into a soffit which vents into an adjacent room.

My point is more about the fact that all projector put out a lot of heat. JVC needed to deal with moving the hot air away from the RS4500 more efficiently.

It isn't like this is the first projector ever mounted to the ceiling of a home theater. You have obviously had many many projectors, and never needed to deal with the heat build up prior to the RS4500.

But why compare the RS400 at high power to the RS4500 at medium power. I get that medium power works for your setup and screen size, but when talking about noise levels, the unit is many times more loud when it's running in high laser mode.

Then when it kicks into "Turbo" mode from heat build up, it sounds like a hairdryer. This is what I hope JVC can tame. If they can keep the unit from kicking into "Turbo" mode it would certainly be much better.

And while many people might could use the unit in medium power for SDR, most would likely use high power mode for HDR.




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If I were only loyal to one brand, why would I even bother buying projectors from other brands to compare them? I gave the 1100ES, 665ES, a few Epson and many 3 chip DLP projectors a chance. None of them impressed me as much as the current JVCs do.
I have to agree partially. The current RS620 is most impressive when it comes to ultimate PQ no contest but built quality, usability, menus and all else goes to the Epson LS hands down.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If I were only loyal to one brand, why would I even bother buying projectors from other brands to compare them? I gave the 1100ES, 665ES, a few Epson and many 3 chip DLP projectors a chance. None of them impressed me as much as the current JVCs do. It's really as simple as that. The ironic part about this is that there are several people that I can think of off the top of my head that have only really had Sony's recently (over the past 3-5 years) but you seem to be fine with them posting pro-Sony stuff even though they haven't even done proper comparisons. I'll say again, I'm loyal to the raw image quality and feature-set the JVCs have, not the JVC logo on the projector chassis. If Sony, Epson or anyone else comes out with something that impresses me even more than the JVCs (and if I can afford it) I'll be saying bye-bye to my JVC projector immediately. I say this all the time, but if you guys were frequent posters 4 or 5 years ago, you'd know that I had nothing but contempt for JVC projectors. I hated them and thought, relatively speaking, there were much better images from several DLP projectors. At the time, I would only have a DLP unit. Things have changed. Right now JVC is the cream of the crop as far as I'm concerned and that's why my money goes to them.
You keep diverting from the point as usual. MY POINT AGAIN. You cannot claim to be brand neutral ( in the same sentence or post ) after you just made several negative remarks about a certain other brand while arguing in favor of another. That my dear deluded friend is a contradiction . At least make negative comments and do argue in favor of another brand but for the sake of all intelligent people in the world do not then claim to be a neutral equal opportunity person, it just sounds ridiculous. There is no argument, you do it every time.

I've had most brand in my theater too, big deal. Difference with me is I liked them all for different reasons, NEVER hated any. I also never had the delusion one was better than the other . Maybe you could learn to temper yourself or at the very least figure out what contradiction means . If you do know what it means accept it without diverting the topic when it is pointed out.................repeatedly .

Have a nice day.
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post #4349 of 5254 Old 03-29-2017, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Personally this is why I built my theaters so that the units are not in the theater room itself. One has a dedicated projection booth and equipment closet, and the other has the projector recessed into a soffit which vents into an adjacent room.

My point is more about the fact that all projector put out a lot of heat. JVC needed to deal with moving the hot air away from the RS4500 more efficiently.

It isn't like this is the first projector ever mounted to the ceiling of a home theater. You have obviously had many many projectors, and never needed to deal with the heat build up prior to the RS4500.

But why compare the RS400 at high power to the RS4500 at medium power. I get that medium power works for your setup and screen size, but when talking about noise levels, the unit is many times more loud when it's running in high laser mode.

Then when it kicks into "Turbo" mode from heat build up, it sounds like a hairdryer. This is what I hope JVC can tame. If they can keep the unit from kicking into "Turbo" mode it would certainly be much better.

And while many people might could use the unit in medium power for SDR, most would likely use high power mode for HDR.




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Equipment room, great way to do it and would be my prefered method. I have never had a projector that put out this much heat. It is nearly twice as much as any other projector I have had in my room, so it required additional cooling. But even when I had other projectors in my room, I did not have the air exchange that I should have had, but it was not a problem, unless I had 5 or 6 people in the room. My theater only seats 3 and I rarely have more than 3 in there. With the RS4500 it was like I had 7 or 8 people in there, so it motivated me to correct a long standing problem. Now I have enough air exchange, that it is not a problem.

I compared those two modes, because I was trying to compare apples to apples. The 4500 in medium power is closest to the RS400 in high.

I can run in high power and noise is still not that bad, but I did not see a big enough difference between medium 37FL vs high 47FL on my screen to justify use of high power mode. Part of that is noise, but mainly I do not like to run any projector full out all the time. If the projector gets hot, it will go into turbo mode and is quite loud, but my 4500 does not kick into turbo mode, even in high power mode. If JVC gets the fan noise lower, I still will not use high power mode, but would welcome a lowering of the noise floor in my theater.
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post #4350 of 5254 Old 03-29-2017, 09:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
You keep diverting from the point as usual. MY POINT AGAIN. You cannot claim to be brand neutral ( in the same sentence or post ) after you just made several negative remarks about a certain other brand while arguing in favor of another. That my dear deluded friend is a contradiction . At least make negative comments and do argue in favor of another brand but for the sake of all intelligent people in the world do not then claim to be a neutral equal opportunity person, it just sounds ridiculous. There is no argument, you do it every time.

I've had most brand in my theater too, big deal. Difference with me is I liked them all for different reasons, NEVER hated any. I also never had the delusion one was better than the other . Maybe you could learn to temper yourself or at the very least figure out what contradiction means . If you do know what it means accept it without diverting the topic when it is pointed out.................repeatedly .

Have a nice day.
You make it seem as if the negative stuff I have to say is something that's up to debate or something. All the negative things I have to say about Sony projectors are objectively true and are the reasons why I choose not to own them. This is the reason why I bought a JVC. I can surely be brand neutral if I'm talking about factual issues a brand has. What this really boils down to is that you simply cannot handle that I don't like a product you currently own. Plain and simple.. You call me delusional when ironically you can't see this about yourself. You will continue to label as biased because of it and I simply don't care. I won't ever own an expensive product with as many flaws that the bulb based Sony 4K units possess. That includes banding, posterization, lack of full P3 support, lack of full 18Gbps HDMI ports, potential contrast and brightness loss from degradation and a lens that can't delineate pixels well across the entire image. Are these not 100% truthful, well deserved criticisms of flaws the current 3xx/6xx Sony 4K models have? How is me not liking these issues "biased"? On top of these issues my JVC is brighter and has more on/off contrast. Why am I not allowed to pick JVC being the better projector with all of this factual information without being biased?
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