JVC 4k Native Laser projector (confirm) - Page 96 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2851 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 08:21 AM
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In SDR + 709 with UHD BD, I've only looked at a couple of discs so far but on my RS500 and Oppo 203 I've seen a very clean image from my seating distance (10.5 feet from 2:35 screen @ 9 feet wide). I see nothing unstable, noisy or otherwise odd. I also understand that movies like Goodfellas contain natural film grain as part of the 35mm original negative source that is not video noise (you can often or should be able to tell the difference on discs with front projection once you know what to look for). My projector has been calibrated my Chad B and I've got processing settings turned off.
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post #2852 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 08:25 AM
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From 1,25 screen widths away, I also quite easily noticed unrest in the image from my RS400 in the form of subtle light pulsing/flickering. I don't know if this is due to uneven output from the lamps, or somehow connected to how the D-ILA panels are driven.

If it is because of uneven output from the lamp, then perhaps some lamps are better/more stable than others due to manufacturing variances, which would explain why some say they don't notice it at all, while others are bothered by it. Or it could be the panels, and thus happening more or less at the same level in everyones projectors, but being so subtle it could be much like the RBE effect from DLP - some are bothered by it, and others have a hard time noticing it.

If this "unrest" is completely gone in the new laser 4500, and the image now looks as steady and "solid" as the Epson laser projectors for instance, then it would seem that it was indeed the bulbs that was responsible for the "unrest". And that would be great news.
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post #2853 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
In SDR + 709 with UHD BD, I've only looked at a couple of discs so far but on my RS500 and Oppo 203 I've seen a very clean image from my seating distance (10.5 feet from 2:35 screen @ 9 feet wide). I see nothing unstable, noisy or otherwise odd. I also understand that movies like Goodfellas contain natural film grain as part of the 35mm original negative source that is not video noise (you can often or should be able to tell the difference on discs with front projection once you know what to look for). My projector has been calibrated my Chad B and I've got processing settings turned off.
It was handy to have an RS600 and a VW600 in my theater, at the same time. Turning all MPC settings to 1 or 0 ( leaving noise reduction at 2 ) gave essentially the same image noise wise as the VW600. MPC settings are too high out of the box for 1080p / Blu Rays.
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post #2854 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
From 1,25 screen widths away, I also quite easily noticed unrest in the image from my RS400 in the form of subtle light pulsing/flickering. I don't know if this is due to uneven output from the lamps, or somehow connected to how the D-ILA panels are driven.

If it is because of uneven output from the lamp, then perhaps some lamps are better/more stable than others due to manufacturing variances, which would explain why some say they don't notice it at all, while others are bothered by it. Or it could be the panels, and thus happening more or less at the same level in everyones projectors, but being so subtle it could be much like the RBE effect from DLP - some are bothered by it, and others have a hard time noticing it.

If this "unrest" is completely gone in the new laser 4500, and the image now looks as steady and "solid" as the Epson laser projectors for instance, then it would seem that it was indeed the bulbs that was responsible for the "unrest". And that would be great news.
I've heard many state that they could not handle the flicker from JVC. I have never noticed flicker on my RS600 in 2D or 3D ever . I just installed triple DLP projectors on a 6 meter gaming system in my home. When my eyes shift quickly across the screen I have seen the RBE for an instant on chrome surfaces off screen, but not on screen. This effect is so subtle and instantaneous that I don't even really consider it an issue . The quality of these 1080 projectors however is a major issue compared to what I am use to now. Poor image quality and SDE are brutal , would have gone with triple TV OLED panels if I had my time back .
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post #2855 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
In SDR + 709 with UHD BD, I've only looked at a couple of discs so far but on my RS500 and Oppo 203 I've seen a very clean image from my seating distance (10.5 feet from 2:35 screen @ 9 feet wide). I see nothing unstable, noisy or otherwise odd. I also understand that movies like Goodfellas contain natural film grain as part of the 35mm original negative source that is not video noise (you can often or should be able to tell the difference on discs with front projection once you know what to look for). My projector has been calibrated my Chad B and I've got processing settings turned off.
The image is very clean and sharp on the RS600 . Put it side by side next to a 4K image of a VW675 or the Z1 and you will see what is the difference. 4K chip and the processing certainly as someone mentioned but mostly
the 8 million pixels of 4K.

If I keep the VW675 over the RS600 it won't be because I cannot tolerate "the busyness" , especially on a 4K image back and forth is a chore to see the separation. Up-scaled 1080 to 4 K is a different story, the Sony manages this a bit better and it's easier to see .

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post #2856 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
I've heard many state that they could not handle the flicker from JVC. I have never noticed flicker on my RS600 in 2D or 3D ever . I just installed triple DLP projectors on a 6 meter gaming system in my home. When my eyes shift quickly across the screen I have seen the RBE for an instant on chrome surfaces off screen, but not on screen.
You being someone who notices RBE makes me think you'd also notice this flickering as well, which makes me think it's indeed due to the lamps, and that the one in your RS600 is a good one. I'm wondering if I had a particularly bad lamp in my RS400.

That first reports say that the 4500 looks completely stable and calm would back this up. Solid-state light sources is the future, I can't wait until the RS-series gets lasers as well.
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post #2857 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
The image is very clean and sharp on the RS600 . Put it side by side next to a 4K image of a VW675 or the Z1 and you will see what is the difference. 4K chip and the processing certainly as someone mentioned but mostly
the 8 million pixels of 4K.

If I keep the VW675 over the RS600 it won't be because I cannot tolerate "the busyness" , especially on a 4K image back and forth is a chore to see the separation. Up-scaled 1080 to 4 K is a different story, the Sony manages this a bit better and it's easier to see .
I seem to recall zoomed screen grabs of the RS500 and Sony. The Sony is adding posterization into the image along with some kind of built in filtering. There was no noise in the RS500. I think this was with 1080p on the JVC - maybe someone can confirm with eshift?

With eshift on my RS500, at my seating difference, I don't see any more noise on the UHD BD vs the BD. In fact, on I Am Legend it's the reverse: the UHD BD with its improved H.265 encode is superior to the lower bit HD DVD encode. With the Goodfellas UHD BD, I see more defined/refined film grain vs the BD but no video noise as mentioned. I have not tried look close to the screen though.

Given eshift does around 3K as has been estimated, I would imagine the Z1 with its superior lens and native panel ability to be superior for sure.

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post #2858 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 01:02 PM
 
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I seem to recall zoomed screen grabs of the RS500 and Sony. The Sony is adding posterization into the image along with some kind of built in filtering. There was no noise in the RS500. I think this was with 1080p on the JVC - maybe someone can confirm with eshift?

With eshift on my RS500, at my seating difference, I don't see any more noise on the UHD BD vs the BD. In fact, on I Am Legend it's the reverse: the UHD BD with its improved H.265 encode is superior to the lower bit HD DVD encode. With the Goodfellas UHD BD, I see more defined/refined film grain vs the BD but no video noise as mentioned. I have not tried look close to the screen though.

Given eshift does around 3K as has been estimated, I would imagine the Z1 with its superior lens and native panel ability to be superior for sure.
The JVC without eshift engaged doesn't add noise to the image, but will show any and all noise in the source material ruthlessley. It's very "transparent" to the source material which can be nice for when a film has grain. With eshift engaged there is added noise to the image. This won't show up in a static photograph like the ones Javs has taken. To me, it resembles dither noise. It's random dancing noise. I don't know if this is intentionally added or just a side effect of the eshift process. With that said, this type of fine noise can't normally be seen from a normal seated distance.

The Sony on the other hand has some type of nondefeatable noise filtering going on, so source material will look cleaner, but less transparent to the source. Some people prefer this cleaner look. But as you mention there is posterization and occassional visible banding in the image as well that you can't fully get rid of.
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post #2859 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The JVC without eshift engaged doesn't add noise to the image, but will show any and all noise in the source material ruthlessley. It's very "transparent" to the source material which can be nice for when a film has grain. With eshift engaged there is added noise to the image. This won't show up in a static photograph like the ones Javs has taken. To me, it resembles dither noise. It's random dancing noise. I don't know if this is intentionally added or just a side effect of the eshift process. With that said, this type of fine noise can't normally be seen from a normal seated distance.

The Sony on the other hand has some type of nondefeatable noise filtering going on, so source material will look cleaner, but less transparent to the source. Some people prefer this cleaner look. But as you mention there is posterization and occassional visible banding in the image as well that you can't fully get rid of.
From doing a little testing on my Epson LS10000, it seems that e-shift does indeed add some noise to the image, but only if it's being fed a 1080p signal. If fed a native 4k signal, as far as I can tell this noise is removed or at least significantly reduced. For example, if the projector was displaying a white screen with 1080p being e-shifted, there was some subtle "dithering-dancing" visible when viewed up close, but that same white field looks clean and noise-free with a native 4k signal...

This is one of the several reasons why feeding e-shift a native 4k signal really lifts overall image quality a lot. At least this is the case with the Epson.
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post #2860 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 03:09 PM
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You being someone who notices RBE makes me think you'd also notice this flickering as well, which makes me think it's indeed due to the lamps, and that the one in your RS600 is a good one. I'm wondering if I had a particularly bad lamp in my RS400.

That first reports say that the 4500 looks completely stable and calm would back this up. Solid-state light sources is the future, I can't wait until the RS-series gets lasers as well.

Flickering is a common complaint with JVC lamp based projectors up to this point, never heard of the issue with any other brand. If it was a lamp issue every manufacturer would subject to flickering I would assume.


Maybe flickering is what I am seeing, who knows. Could just be high frequency dct quantization artifacting...... AKA mosquito noise . It's certainly settled down but up really close I can still see this in certain areas. If 4 K and the content digital , much harder to see this . Up-scaled 1080 is a different
story.

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post #2861 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 03:25 PM
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Flickering is a common complaint with JVC lamp based projectors up to this point, never heard of the issue with any other brand. If it was a lamp issue every manufacturer would subject to flickering I would assume.
https://www.google.com/#q=sony+proje...ering+problems

https://www.google.com/#q=why+does+m...jector+flicker

Not a JVC problem - it's a lamp problem. Sony, Epson, BenQ and Optoma - they all can have lamp flicker. Google is your friend.
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post #2862 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 03:43 PM
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The JVC without eshift engaged doesn't add noise to the image, but will show any and all noise in the source material ruthlessley. It's very "transparent" to the source material which can be nice for when a film has grain. With eshift engaged there is added noise to the image.
Interesting. I've seen that mentioned before. To me the E-shift image looks if anything smoother and more solid than the non-Eshift images. In fact, that's one reason why I sometimes go back to E-shift after a while.
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post #2863 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 03:45 PM
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Interesting. I've seen that mentioned before. To me the E-shift image looks if anything smoother and more solid than the non-Eshift images. In fact, that's one reason why I sometimes go back to E-shift after a while.
I'm back to eshift on all the time on my RS600 too.

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post #2864 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 03:58 PM
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You guys really need to be up-scaling to 2160p!

You are missing out on a whole lot of candy!

The Panasonic is a most excellent up-scaler.
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post #2865 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 04:05 PM
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Interesting. I've seen that mentioned before. To me the E-shift image looks if anything smoother and more solid than the non-Eshift images. In fact, that's one reason why I sometimes go back to E-shift after a while.

Well then, I guess they really missed the boat when they built the Z1 . Could have saved a ton of money running e-shift instead of installing this unnecessary 4K panel . Just sayin .

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You guys really need to be up-scaling to 2160p!

You are missing out on a whole lot of candy!

The Panasonic is a most excellent up-scaler.
OK, I'll try it and see what I think ! I've been to busy to get much time in the theater. And I'm anticipating having to re - jigger everything when my RS4500 finally arrives.

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post #2867 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 04:13 PM
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Well then, I guess they really missed the boat when they built the Z1 . Could have saved a ton of money running e-shift instead of installing this unnecessary 4K panel . Just sayin .
You are starting to remind me of Grumpy Cat !


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OK, I'll try it and see what I think ! I've been to busy to get much time in the theater. And I'm anticipating having to re - jigger everything when my RS4500 finally arrives.
It really does an excellent job at upscaling when set up right! But once your RS4500 arrives I guess you won't be needing it to do the upscaling anymore, as the projector will do an even better job. At least that's what it sounds like from reading what Kris Deering had to say about the upscaling ability of the 4500.
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post #2869 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 04:36 PM
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So... where is @ARROW-AV with all his numerous measurements?

You got some numbers for us buddy???
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You guys really need to be up-scaling to 2160p!

You are missing out on a whole lot of candy!

The Panasonic is a most excellent up-scaler.
Add the Oppo to the list now.
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post #2871 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 05:44 PM
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You are starting to remind me of Grumpy Cat !


Naaah, that looks more like the face of the RS4500 owners when they realize the e-shift is just as good as their 4K image . Then again since I own a "true"
4K panel I suppose I would look like this too, and you will too Craig. Just sayin.

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Naaah, that looks more like the face of the RS4500 owners when they realize the e-shift is just as good as their 4K image . Then again since I own a "true"
4K panel I suppose I would look like this too, and you will too Craig. Just sayin.
Yes, a true 4K projector but with flaws like undefeatable noise reduction, scaling artifacts, banding, posterization and a lens no where near as good as the one in the RS4500. These 5 very real issues and deficiencies culminate in an way that deprives your projector full potential resolution capabilities that the native 4K panels might give if they weren't there. The JVC has none of these issues and a lens that's at least on par with the 5000ES. And now we're hearing the "fix" for panel degradation might not have even worked, so add that to the list of issues.

Tell Sony to fix these issues and you might have a valid argument. Thank you, come again...

Last edited by Seegs108; 01-25-2017 at 08:23 PM.
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post #2873 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Naaah, that looks more like the face of the RS4500 owners when they realize the e-shift is just as good as their 4K image . Then again since I own a "true"
4K panel I suppose I would look like this too, and you will too Craig. Just sayin.
Quite the troll these days
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post #2874 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Flickering is a common complaint with JVC lamp based projectors up to this point, never heard of the issue with any other brand. If it was a lamp issue every manufacturer would subject to flickering I would assume.


Maybe flickering is what I am seeing, who knows. Could just be high frequency dct quantization artifacting...... AKA mosquito noise . It's certainly settled down but up really close I can still see this in certain areas. If 4 K and the content digital , much harder to see this . Up-scaled 1080 is a different
story.
Have had a couple people return JVC projectors, because of what they termed might be flicker. Something bothered them. I think some people are more susceptible to some things than others. I also have had several people complain about flicker on the 1080P version Sony projectors. Only flicker complaints I have had on Sony 4K projectors, were lamp issues.
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post #2875 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Naaah, that looks more like the face of the RS4500 owners when they realize the e-shift is just as good as their 4K image . Then again since I own a "true"
4K panel I suppose I would look like this too, and you will too Craig. Just sayin.
Nah, have seen the RS4500 and the RS600. I have no problem putting my RS4500 up against a 675 either. I would love to see a shootout between the VW5000 and the RS4500. Of course, we would could not do it on as large of a screen as the VW5000 can light up.
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post #2876 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 06:57 PM
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So you've been able to compare them? I am just curious as to where all the "this is amazing" posts which usually accompany a new flagship model are. Kinda funny early measurements are comparing it to Sony's 15K model from last year? Maybe it competes with the 5000 at 30% laser?

And all the talk just a few months ago how this projector was supposably going to be the 5000 slayer. Well looks like jvc forgot to bring a sword...


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post #2877 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 07:19 PM
 
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It's funny that you guys come in here talking as if these projectors are priced even remotely close to one another. It's amazing that JVC was able to give up a only a tiny amount of contrast and some lumen output to give you a similar feature-set like a laser light source, native 4K panels, similar lens quality, frame interpolation at native 4K, similar dynamic contrast capabilities, better quality scaling with less artifacts introduced in the image (as confirmed by Kris Deering), NO issues with banding or posterization (also confirmed by Kris) and again all for a far less cost. Those of us who don't have massive screens, this could be a better choice.

I also want to point out that this is JVCs FIRST attempt at a fully consumer level native 4K laser projector. Sony has been in the consumer 4K game since 2011 and has already released consumer laser native 4K units in the past. It's great they were able to get this close in performance on their first try. JVC was never aiming to reach the 5000ES in brightness, so it's not a failure on their part in that regard. I'm excited to see what they have for us round 2, while Sony is on their 4th or 5th.
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post #2878 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
So you've been able to compare them? I am just curious as to where all the "this is amazing" posts which usually accompany a new flagship model are. Kinda funny early measurements are comparing it to Sony's 15K model from last year? Maybe it competes with the 5000 at 30% laser?

And all the talk just a few months ago how this projector was supposably going to be the 5000 slayer. Well looks like jvc forgot to bring a sword...

Early on, it was reported to be a 3,000 lumen projector, so brightness wise, nobody should have been comparing it to the VW5000. Now in all the other aspects, I would like to see a comparison against the VW5000. I do not recall anybody comparing the RS4500 to the VW675. I mentioned I would have no problem putting the RS4500 up against a VW675, just like I am sure you would be confident to put a VW5000 up against a 675.
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post #2879 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 07:35 PM
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Add the Oppo to the list now.
I'm going to give the 203 a try with regular BD and eshift.
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post #2880 of 5254 Old 01-25-2017, 07:44 PM
 
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I'm going to give the 203 a try with regular BD and eshift.
Let me know what you think. I may ditch the Panasonic UB900 down the road when Oppo adds Dolby Vision support via firmware update. AVForum's recent review mentions that it will come at some point. I highly doubt Panasonic will update this unit for support for DV. They're the kind of manufacturer who likes to get people to double dip.
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