Is old Hi-end ould be a good choice ? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 120 Old 07-16-2016, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
A lot has changed in the last 5-10 years in projection. DLP is no longer the king, in fact, it's (sadly) not even a contender really. It may have an edge in reliability, but only in the commercial market applications which are significantly different than the home environment (lots more hours, lots bigger lamps/more heat).
I bet the 4K DLP DMDs will be sharper than LCoS just as with 1080p.
Better motion with DLP.
Brightness is fine with both.
Contrast goes to LCoS until DMDs finally get put in series.

Then 3LCD and LCoS will only be preferred by those ultra-sensitive to RBE.

There must be something shady going on in back rooms that is keeping DLP from destroying 3LCD and LCoS.
My money is on Dolby doing whatever it takes to make Dolby Vision theaters look better.
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post #32 of 120 Old 07-17-2016, 12:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Which Lumis ?
a 3D-S ?
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post #33 of 120 Old 07-17-2016, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
I bet the 4K DLP DMDs will be sharper than LCoS just as with 1080p.
Better motion with DLP.
I can't tell a difference between my JVC RS4910 and my Planar 8150 in either of those areas.

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There must be something shady going on in back rooms that is keeping DLP from destroying 3LCD and LCoS.
My money is on Dolby doing whatever it takes to make Dolby Vision theaters look better.
Are you planing to crash every new projector thread whining about not being able to get a stacked DLP projector? Do you really expect that to accomplish anything?
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post #34 of 120 Old 07-17-2016, 07:35 PM
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Take pics with a high end dSLR and look at them blown up, you'll see a clear difference.

Yup, the more attention the issue gets, the more likely it will be rectified.

I will complain for 120Hz/4K as well. Every new product should support it.
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post #35 of 120 Old 07-17-2016, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Take pics with a high end dSLR and look at them blown up, you'll see a clear difference.

Yup, the more attention the issue gets, the more likely it will be rectified.

I will complain for 120Hz/4K as well. Every new product should support it.
What does it matter if he can't tell a difference, when doing actual viewing on the screen?
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post #36 of 120 Old 07-17-2016, 08:08 PM
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For him it may not matter, but for others it may.

Some think DLP is harsh and LCoS is smooth.
Others think LCoS is soft and DLP is sharp.

I was just pointing out the difference can be verified.
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post #37 of 120 Old 07-18-2016, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Take pics with a high end dSLR and look at them blown up, you'll see a clear difference.
Like the OP, your information appears outdated. JVC has made a lot of progress in the past 10 years on their projectors. I was right there with you two until I actually bought an RS4910 about a year ago from AVS, so I could see one for myself. They had a deal on some, and I sort of figured I'd just sell it off, but it ended up changing my mind about the state of projectors. The JVC's live up to the hype regarding contrast, and I found out for my self why Kris Deering, Craig Peer, Seegs, Zombie and all the others have "dropped" DLPs and moved over to JVC for the ultimate in picture quality (at least in the <$10k). I've still got my Planar 8150 hanging right in front of my RS4910, so I can compare them any time I want. I've only still got the Planar because my one problem with the JVC is lag, and I just can't game on it, which is unfortunate because games look beautiful on it.

Obviously the images aren't identical, but there aren't any issues with optical/pixel sharpness on the JVC vs the Planar, no are there any motion issues that I have noticed, and frankly I don't intend to go looking for them. Kind of like I don't intend to go looking for RBE on the Planar.

I've still got a soft spot for DLP, but until we get stacked DMDs, they just can't compete in overall image quality due to the comparatively poor contrast.

I'm actually debating if I'm going to grab an RS500 sometime this fall. I'll need to see how some home projects line up and get my RS4910 sold first though.
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post #38 of 120 Old 07-18-2016, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Like the OP, your information appears outdated. JVC has made a lot of progress in the past 10 years on their projectors. I was right there with you two until I actually bought an RS4910 about a year ago from AVS, so I could see one for myself. They had a deal on some, and I sort of figured I'd just sell it off, but it ended up changing my mind about the state of projectors. The JVC's live up to the hype regarding contrast, and I found out for my self why Kris Deering, Craig Peer, Seegs, Zombie and all the others have "dropped" DLPs and moved over to JVC for the ultimate in picture quality (at least in the <$10k). I've still got my Planar 8150 hanging right in front of my RS4910, so I can compare them any time I want. I've only still got the Planar because my one problem with the JVC is lag, and I just can't game on it, which is unfortunate because games look beautiful on it.

Obviously the images aren't identical, but there aren't any issues with optical/pixel sharpness on the JVC vs the Planar, no are there any motion issues that I have noticed, and frankly I don't intend to go looking for them. Kind of like I don't intend to go looking for RBE on the Planar.

I've still got a soft spot for DLP, but until we get stacked DMDs, they just can't compete in overall image quality due to the comparatively poor contrast.

I'm actually debating if I'm going to grab an RS500 sometime this fall. I'll need to see how some home projects line up and get my RS4910 sold first though.
I had a very similar experience. I owned the planar 8150 and took the leap of faith when i bought the jvc 57. I could not have been more surprised (and happier) with the purchase. I came from being a die hard dlp fan to embracing the jvc LCoS. I have since stepped up and purchased the JVC RS500...another step forward for in the evolution of their image.
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post #39 of 120 Old 07-21-2016, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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A lot of comparison is made between single chip DMD vs 3 Lcos, 1 chip DMD is not the subject, in DLP if I move from my current one to another DLP it will be 3DMDs only.
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post #40 of 120 Old 07-21-2016, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pnauts View Post
A lot of comparison is made between single chip DMD vs 3 Lcos, 1 chip DMD is not the subject, in DLP if I move from my current one to another DLP it will be 3DMDs only.
People went to 3-chip DLP for the lumens, but that was because there was a huge difference in lumen output between LCOS and 3-chip DLP. LCOS just could not light up a 14' wide screen, so 3-chip DLP won by default. That is not the case anymore. An RS500 can light up a 14' wide Stewart ST130 screen in low lamp. Like people have been telling you, there is a reason why many of us have moved from DLP to LCOS and that is because of all the improvements in LCOS over the years. 3-chip DLP can still do a lot more lumens, but only at 2,000:1 to 3,000:1 native contrast.
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post #41 of 120 Old 07-21-2016, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by pnauts View Post
A lot of comparison is made between single chip DMD vs 3 Lcos, 1 chip DMD is not the subject, in DLP if I move from my current one to another DLP it will be 3DMDs only.
You should open yourself up to alternative suggestions the membership is providing. It's to your benefit to read with an open mind the experiences of others.
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post #42 of 120 Old 07-21-2016, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by pnauts View Post
A lot of comparison is made between single chip DMD vs 3 Lcos, 1 chip DMD is not the subject, in DLP if I move from my current one to another DLP it will be 3DMDs only.
If you want to spend the same amount of money (or a lot more) for less performance go ahead.

Everything I've read, from people who I trust and have had/seen both is that there really isn't anything that special about 3DLP. The only benefits over 1DLP are lumens and no RBE, and the later is only a benefit if you're sensitive to it. So yes, a 3 chip DLP might be a step up from your Vivitek, but it will likely be a small step up compared to a RS500, and for a similar cost. I think all of the 3DLPs you list in your OP lack dynamic iris's, and DLP really needs that to have decent black levels. If you really want a 3DLP, you're going to want to look for a Lumis (make sure it's a DI-equipped one) or Runco LS-12D. Last used Lumis I inquired about was $5000 IIRC, looks like the Lumis 3Ds are in the $10k+ range. The former is in the ballpark of an RS500 and far more than an RS400, and the later is in the ballpark of an RS600.
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post #43 of 120 Old 07-21-2016, 10:49 PM
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That's why we need stacked .65" DMDs in the 5K range, single .95" DMDs in the 1.5K range and stacked .95" DMDs in the 10K range.
There is no way there isn't massive profit there, and TI would rule all segments.

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post #44 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
That's why we need stacked .65" DMDs in the 5K range, single .95" DMDs in the 1.5K range and stacked .95" DMDs in the 10K range.
There is no way there isn't massive profit there, and TI would rule all segments.
If that ever happens, then the projectors will be junk projectors like most of the current under 1K projectors. In other words missing features, small throw range and cheap lens. Also if that is what is available, then all of the remaining brick & mortar dealers will go away.
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post #45 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 05:23 AM
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Small or no throw range and no lens shift means good lenses can be made much more cheaply. Not everyone cares about throw range, for it's easy to just ceiling mount in the proper location.

What features would you expect to be missing? Even some entry level projectors have DFI and 12 volt triggers along with good calibration tools. Anamorphic lens support would probably be there for some as well.

Last edited by TheronB; 07-22-2016 at 05:52 AM.
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post #46 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Small or no throw range and no lens shift means good lenses can be made much more cheaply. Not everyone cares about throw range, for it's easy to just ceiling mount in the proper location.

What features would you expect to be missing? Even some entry level projectors have DFI and 12 volt triggers along with good calibration tools. Anamorphic lens support would probably be there for some as well.
Limited throw and no lens shift eliminates a projector from consideration for most of the customers that I deal with.
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post #47 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Small or no throw range and no lens shift means good lenses can be made much more cheaply. Not everyone cares about throw range, for it's easy to just ceiling mount in the proper location.
.
Maybe those short comings/lack of features works for the market you see in the mirror, but you don't speak for many, many other customers. AND, if a company wants to (potentially) grow the projector market.
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post #48 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 06:14 AM
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Maybe those short comings/lack of features works for the market you see in the mirror, but you don't speak for many, many other customers. AND, if a company wants to (potentially) grow the projector market.
If what TheronB wants to happen, does happen, I hope I am retired by then. Because it will certainly mean it is time to get out. There would be no money in it for a dealer. I am all for a good product at a fair price, but you have to be able to make a profit, otherwise you are gone.
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post #49 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 06:36 AM
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No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself.

All is white with the world...

Another day, another investigation delayed by Apple.

Sheeple suck.
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post #50 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 06:38 AM
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Maybe those short comings/lack of features works for the market you see in the mirror, but you don't speak for many, many other customers. AND, if a company wants to (potentially) grow the projector market.
They can have a higher end model with all those features as well.

All is white with the world...

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post #51 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself.
So are you a farmer or a manufacturer? Because if not, then would you not also be unemployed with your wishes?
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post #52 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 08:37 AM
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No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself.
Maybe it's time to cut out everyone and live off the grid...just go straight to the source...mother earth.
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post #53 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 08:53 AM
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Maybe it's time to cut out everyone and live off the grid...just go straight to the source...mother earth.
I wonder how hard I would have to pedal that manual generator to be able to watch a movie on my projector. Either that or I would have to move, since neither solar nor wind power would work for me at my house.
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post #54 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself.
If that were the case you would not have this forum to consult.
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post #55 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Small or no throw range and no lens shift means good lenses can be made much more cheaply. Not everyone cares about throw range, for it's easy to just ceiling mount in the proper location.

What features would you expect to be missing? Even some entry level projectors have DFI and 12 volt triggers along with good calibration tools. Anamorphic lens support would probably be there for some as well.
You can't ceiling mount a projector without lens shift. Unless you'e talking a fixed lens shift. In that case, with the fixed throw range you're wanting your screen size directly determines the projector height. It you want a screen width that puts the projector inside your ceiling, too bad. No throw range, no lens shift... no sale... really... extremely limiting.
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post #56 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 05:22 PM
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Shelf/table mounting is also easy.

Like I said, they can have higher end models with lens shift and zoom.

The point is that TI is holding progress back for some reason.
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post #57 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 05:51 PM
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... That's why the UK left the EU. ...
Let us know in a few years how that works out.
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post #58 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Shelf/table mounting is also easy.

Like I said, they can have higher end models with lens shift and zoom.

The point is that TI is holding progress back for some reason.

Maybe it isn't profitable for them.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #59 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 06:36 PM
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A lot can be said for offering good, not best, quality for low prices. Ask Walmart or Vizio.

You can buy DMDs under $200 online, so direct from TI in bulk they would be dirt cheap.
Add 1K for optics, 1K for lamp/electronics/housing, $500 for stacked DMDs.

That's 2.5K....sell it at 5K. Amazing performance, amazing profit, especially since my price estimates are extremely inflated.

You could add another 1K for LEDs or lasers and sell at 7K.

Obviously someone doesn't want this happening. Is it TI, Dolby, or the manufacturers?

All is white with the world...

Another day, another investigation delayed by Apple.

Sheeple suck.
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post #60 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 07:40 PM
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Obviously someone doesn't want this happening. Is it TI, Dolby, or the manufacturers?
Movie night?



Just having a little fun.

appreciate your commitment to the concept, but don't agree with it or your view of the market place.
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