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post #61 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
A lot can be said for offering good, not best, quality for low prices. Ask Walmart or Vizio.

You can buy DMDs under $200 online, so direct from TI in bulk they would be dirt cheap.
Add 1K for optics, 1K for lamp/electronics/housing, $500 for stacked DMDs.

That's 2.5K....sell it at 5K. Amazing performance, amazing profit, especially since my price estimates are extremely inflated.

You could add another 1K for LEDs or lasers and sell at 7K.

Obviously someone doesn't want this happening. Is it TI, Dolby, or the manufacturers?
You'd go broke trying to sell something for $5k on the retail market that had a $2.5k parts cost.
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post #62 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
A lot can be said for offering good, not best, quality for low prices. Ask Walmart or Vizio.

You can buy DMDs under $200 online, so direct from TI in bulk they would be dirt cheap.
Add 1K for optics, 1K for lamp/electronics/housing, $500 for stacked DMDs.

That's 2.5K....sell it at 5K. Amazing performance, amazing profit, especially since my price estimates are extremely inflated.

You could add another 1K for LEDs or lasers and sell at 7K.

Obviously someone doesn't want this happening. Is it TI, Dolby, or the manufacturers?
If it is so easy, then why don't you start your own company?

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post #63 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 08:37 PM
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post #64 of 120 Old 07-22-2016, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post
You'd go broke trying to sell something for $5k on the retail market that had a $2.5k parts cost.
Lol, you've never run a business obviously, especially if you have third world/cheap labor.
And, like I said, my parts cost was grossly exaggerated.

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post #65 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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There also PCB and components, plastic parts, R&D, reliability, EMC and performance to test, shipping, warranty, dealers $ ...in the price.
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post #66 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 05:03 AM
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There also PCB and components, plastic parts, R&D, reliability, EMC and performance to test, shipping, warranty, dealers $ ...in the price.
Already included mostly. No dealers...buying direct is much better and much of the shipping costs can be transferred to the buyers.

Plus these companies already have the infrastructure and can profit selling projectors under 1K now.

I read somewhere that TV manufacturers are happy with 5% net profit. You guys really think that isn't possible with the scenario I have given?

All is white with the world...

Another day, another investigation delayed by Apple.

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post #67 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 07:41 AM
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Again, why don't you start your own company?

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post #68 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 07:44 AM
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Again, why don't you start your own company?
If you are willing to give me the capital.
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post #69 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 07:47 AM
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What experience do you have in manufacturing?

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post #70 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 08:46 AM
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What experience do you have in manufacturing?
I think he's told us.
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post #71 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 09:54 AM
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None in electronics manufacturing, but I have experience in bearing and powerboat engineering and chemical engineering.

I have no interest in manufacturing projectors, just pointing out possibilities.
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post #72 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 11:12 AM
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Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttt!

You seem to know the ends and outs of manufacturing dlp projectors and what they should cost. If you don't want to pursue it yourself, then why should anyone else?

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post #73 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 05:17 PM
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Can't people just discuss things of interest? I'm not sure why you feel my estimates are so off. Why not discuss that instead of attack people?
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post #74 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 05:48 PM
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Can't people just discuss things of interest? I'm not sure why you feel my estimates are so off. Why not discuss that instead of attack people?
We are discussing that. What do you think we're discussing?

Your estimates are off because generally components should be 1/10 the retail cost because you have things like:

Labor and associated HR costs. This includes not only the direct labor but supervisors, janitors, plant engineers and the like. Then there's factory rent, factory utilities, admin offices and their rent and utilities, and depreciation of all the equipment. Then there's logistics and other transportation. Then there is all the government compliance stuff with CAL/OCEA, larbor practices and the like.

So then you have a product that you have to advertise and go looking for customers. That whole sales thing with support engineers and a sales force has to be put together. Huge. This doesn't even include those dreaded "middlemen" you speak of.
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post #75 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 06:21 PM
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But that simply isn't true. In most cases, gross profit over 35% can sustain a healthy business.
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post #76 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 06:22 PM
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Lol, you've never run a business obviously, especially if you have third world/cheap labor.
And, like I said, my parts cost was grossly exaggerated.
The company I ran was Quarterbyte Systems and now I'm retired. The Quarterbyte web site is hopelessly out of date because my retirement happened decades ago. I'm comfortable. I have a net worth of "many" rather than "a few", but not "10's". But, I guess I've never run a business.
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post #77 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 06:24 PM
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But that simply isn't true. In most cases, gross profit over 35% can sustain a healthy business.
It depends on what type of business and what the volume is. Grocery stores? 6%. The government gets more in sales tax. Manufacture of high-end boutique electronics? Not so much.
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post #78 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 06:56 PM
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If Sony is happy with 5% net on TVs, then I'm sure there is room there. Of course front projection is probably about 1% of flat panel sales, but these companies are shooting themselves in the foot by not offering better value. Who does the best in the projector market? BenQ and Epson. Probably because they offer competitive projector under 1K.

But if they would bring the 3K performance under 1K, their market percentage may double or more. Another 1% of the TV market is a heck of a lot more money than gouging the first 1%.

TI's old .95" 1080p DMDs would be perfect for offering high performance for a reasonable cost. Look what Vizio has accomplished doing the same.
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post #79 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
If Sony is happy with 5% net on TVs, then I'm sure there is room there. Of course front projection is probably about 1% of flat panel sales, but these companies are shooting themselves in the foot by not offering better value. Who does the best in the projector market? BenQ and Epson. Probably because they offer competitive projector under 1K.

But if they would bring the 3K performance under 1K, their market percentage may double or more. Another 1% of the TV market is a heck of a lot more money than gouging the first 1%.

TI's old .95" 1080p DMDs would be perfect for offering high performance for a reasonable cost. Look what Vizio has accomplished doing the same.

I'd love to see the footnotes that you are getting this data from. Do you have some links you can share?
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post #80 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 07:31 PM
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The Sony stuff is everywhere... Operating at a loss and hoping for 5%.

The rest is in every basic economics textbook.

I'm not saying they should sell Sim2 Lumis to everyone under 1K, but a nice fixed offset, no zoom, plastic lens if need be, 1000 lumens calibrated, 0.95" 1080p DMD PJ under 1K would be easy and rake in a nice net profit.
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post #81 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
The Sony stuff is everywhere... Operating at a loss and hoping for 5%.

The rest is in every basic economics textbook.

I'm not saying they should sell Sim2 Lumis to everyone under 1K, but a nice fixed offset, no zoom, plastic lens if need be, 1000 lumens calibrated, 0.95" 1080p DMD PJ under 1K would be easy and rake in a nice net profit.
That's 5% after all those other expenses I listed.

And a fixed offset, no zoom is a non-starter. Your max screen size is directly dictated by your ceiling height.
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post #82 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 08:59 PM
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-Exactly. If you can't net 5% with over 50% gross, especially with the cheap Asian labor (less than $3/hr, no sick pay, no insurance) these companies are using, the company is being horribly run.

They will of course have higher end models with the features you may want. We are talking entry level here. Many would be happy with the excellent 100-135" screen they would probably get with their preferred placement.

All is white with the world...

Another day, another investigation delayed by Apple.

Sheeple suck.
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post #83 of 120 Old 07-23-2016, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
-Exactly. If you can't net 5% with over 50% gross, especially with the cheap Asian labor (less than $3/hr, no sick pay, no insurance) these companies are using, the company is being horribly run.

They will of course have higher end models with the features you may want. We are talking entry level here. Many would be happy with the excellent 100-135" screen they would probably get with their preferred placement.
Write up a business plan and sell it to some investors.
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post #84 of 120 Old 07-24-2016, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
-Exactly. If you can't net 5% with over 50% gross, especially with the cheap Asian labor (less than $3/hr, no sick pay, no insurance) these companies are using, the company is being horribly run.

They will of course have higher end models with the features you may want. We are talking entry level here. Many would be happy with the excellent 100-135" screen they would probably get with their preferred placement.
Not talking entry level, when you want a 0.95" chip. You are not going to find any company crazy enough to use a 0.95" chip on a plastic lens projector with no zoom and no lens shift.
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post #85 of 120 Old 07-24-2016, 05:29 PM
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And doing so would defeat the purpose of using the big DMD. Yes, the large DMD is a part of the equation, but without the rest of the package, it's just going to be a cheap projector.
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post #86 of 120 Old 07-24-2016, 09:21 PM
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No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself.
A bit out of touch with reality aren't you? The farmer is CERTAINLY not going to bring you the meat & produce on THEIR dime so how are YOU going to get it? You can't buy the parts of a car and assemble them yourself so you can't build a car yourself and based on your approach, you would not buy one so I guess you plan on walking. You can buy individual computer components but as so MANY integrator's learned in the 80's, that does NOT mean that you have the ability to build a relizable, viable computer. You end up with bits and peices. Some good (like intel) while others are crap (like the Tsinko power supplies).

Dealers SHOULD make a profit but who are YOU to determine what that profits NEEDS to be to stay in business as you certainly are not their customer if your "wishes" are to be recognized.

Note: If you worked in the Powerboat industry you KNOW that Formula/Thunderbird and other similar companies make a LOT more than 5% net on their sales so why would you think that electronics would be successfull with such low profit margins?

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post #87 of 120 Old 07-24-2016, 11:22 PM
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I get pork and beef delivered directly from the grower at their expense all the time. Local farmers are happy to do it because they get better prices than stockyards and the buyers get better prices than supermarkets. A lot better quality, too.

I'm well aware a powerboat manufacturer wants more than 5% net, we are talking flat panels and projectors mostly made by giant companies that don't need all their bread from one basket. Big difference.

All is white with the world...

Another day, another investigation delayed by Apple.

Sheeple suck.
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post #88 of 120 Old 07-24-2016, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
I get pork and beef delivered directly from the grower at their expense all the time. Local farmers are happy to do it because they get better prices than stockyards and the buyers get better prices than supermarkets. A lot better quality, too.

I'm well aware a powerboat manufacturer wants more than 5% net, we are talking flat panels and projectors mostly made by giant companies that don't need all their bread from one basket. Big difference.
One side of my family are farmers. None would do that as they simply don't have the time to do so but if you found a local who is willing, good for you.

Internet forums are rife with people questioning manufacturer "costs" and then speculating due to a lack of understanding about what a company could or can not do (e.g. "trolling").

IMHO running a flat panel or projector company is no different than running a mass-production boat building operation. They all manufacture, distribute, market, etc. The fact that one company may be "larger" than the other doesn't really factor.
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post #89 of 120 Old 07-25-2016, 12:46 AM
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The individual divisions of a company should be profitable, at least long term. Otherwise they will be shut down. Look at pioneer tvs for instance. Also, since home cinema projectors is such a small niche product economy of scale doesn't kick in. This means that all research and development costs needs to be recuperated on only a few units which means they need much higher margins.
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post #90 of 120 Old 07-25-2016, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post
The individual divisions of a company should be profitable, at least long term. Otherwise they will be shut down. Look at pioneer tvs for instance. Also, since home cinema projectors is such a small niche product economy of scale doesn't kick in. This means that all research and development costs needs to be recuperated on only a few units which means they need much higher margins.
Exactly. If you are selling a million TV's, your cost for R&D, overhead and manufacturing per TV is much lower than the company that is only selling a hundred thousand projectors.
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