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-   -   Is old Hi-end ould be a good choice ? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514513-old-hi-end-ould-good-choice.html)

pnauts 07-13-2016 08:59 AM

Is old Hi-end could be a good choice ?
 
Hi, I have a Vivitek H5080 purchased from a member here and I wish move to a 3 DLP PJ, yes the grail.
Is some old glory could be still at the top today and superior to current cheapest mono DLP
I think on Sim2 C3X 1080 (DC4 but built looks cheap, a lot of plastic inside), Sim2HT5000 (DC3, heavy, no 1080p 24 ?) or Digital Projection 250 1080p (looks built as pro but according to someone I discussed with, reliability was not at the top, and less performance than Sim2 lumis) ?
Advice of owners would be appreciated.

Mike Garrett 07-13-2016 10:51 AM

I would skip that and look at a JVC. Will have very good brightness and much better contrast. Also will be able to play UHD BD.

Seegs108 07-13-2016 12:16 PM

If you're looking to step up to a 3 chip DLP at a cheaper price compared to the Sim2 units. I'd look into the Digital Projection Cine 260HC.

Craig Peer 07-13-2016 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45328409)
Hi, I have a Vivitek H5080 purchased from a member here and I wish move to a 3 DLP PJ, yes the grail.
Is some old glory could be still at the top today and superior to current cheapest mono DLP
I think on Sim2 C3X 1080 (DC4 but built looks cheap, a lot of plastic inside), Sim2HT5000 (DC3, heavy, no 1080p 24 ?) or Digital Projection 250 1080p (looks built as pro but according to someone I discussed with, reliability was not at the top, and less performance than Sim2 lumis) ?
Advice of owners would be appreciated.

I owned a Sim Lumis Host for 6 1/2 years. Great projector. If you can get a good deal on a lightly used one, and you don't care about 4K ( plenty of great movies on Blu ray at bargain prices ), why not?

pnauts 07-13-2016 12:35 PM

Thanks for your feedback, I don't want L-Cos or LCDs, 3 chip DLP in 1080 is the only technology I wish have for the moment (and rather 0.95").
Craig, to you what will be a great deal ?

Craig Peer 07-13-2016 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45334401)
Thanks for your feedback, I don't want L-Cos or LCDs, 3 chip DLP in 1080 is the only technology I wish have for the moment (and rather 0.95").
Craig, to you what will be a great deal ?

Depends on the model. $ 4K - 5K or so, depending on age, condition and accessories.

Mike Garrett 07-13-2016 01:21 PM

Lot of money to invest in a 5 to 9 year old projector.

Craig Peer 07-13-2016 01:59 PM

But a fraction of the original price. I see a D.P. Titan for sale in the classifieds, and a Sim Lumis.

stanger89 07-13-2016 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45334401)
Thanks for your feedback, I don't want L-Cos or LCDs, 3 chip DLP in 1080 is the only technology I wish have for the moment (and rather 0.95").

Have you seen the latest JVCs? I think I understand where you're coming from, I had all DLPs, I still have my Planar 8150. I was leery of LCoS for a long time. But almost a year ago I finally picked up a JVC RS4910, and I'm sold. Well, what I should say is I understand why Mike, Craig, Kris, Seegs, Zombie, etc have all moved on from DLP. I've got the JVC and the Planar up in my HT and while I can't speak to generations prior, with the RS49 generation, JVC has basically made it to parity with DLP in things like motion, sharpness, etc. Between the two machines, there is really only one issue I have with each, the JVC's input lag is a problem for gaming, and the Planar's contrast just isn't a match for the JVC.

So if you haven't seen a JVC, and you're ruling them out based on ideas that they have poor motion, sharpness, pop, etc, I'd say your worries are outdated and I'd seriously look at an RS500.

jh901 07-13-2016 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45334401)
Thanks for your feedback, I don't want L-Cos or LCDs, 3 chip DLP in 1080 is the only technology I wish have for the moment (and rather 0.95").

Do you take pleasure in the "technology" or the quality of the image? You should ask yourself that first.

pnauts 07-16-2016 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh901 (Post 45337721)
Do you take pleasure in the "technology" or the quality of the image? You should ask yourself that first.

No of course, this is a personal choice regarding testimony about bad LCD aging. And Considering that professional theater using DLP.

jh901 07-16-2016 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45389809)
No of course, this is a personal choice regarding testimony about bad LCD aging. And Considering that professional theater using DLP.

DLP in theaters will not produce the overall image quality of a reference LCOS in a private home theater. If your screen is only 10' wide or so, then you might want to re-think. I mean, I wouldn't go to a typical commercial theater unless I felt the need to screen a film prior to seeing what it really can look like at home upon blu-ray release. Sure, there are specialty theaters here and there in the US, but I'm not near one.

TheronB 07-16-2016 07:09 AM

Tell that to Dolby.


Seegs says that TI is intentionally sabotaging the DLP market so that manufacturers cannot use DMDs in series to destroy 3LCD and LCoS.

DLP should rule all segments of the market.
It reeks of collusion.

Mike Garrett 07-16-2016 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45389809)
No of course, this is a personal choice regarding testimony about bad LCD aging. And Considering that professional theater using DLP.

I would be very disappointed if the image in my theater looked like what I see at our local commercial cinema. I have better contrast, better sharpness and better color saturation.

Added
Our local theater is not a good example of DLP. Also the environment of commercial cinemas, hurt the image quality, due to the maintained brightness in the room for safety standards.

Ericglo 07-16-2016 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh901 (Post 45391873)
DLP in theaters will not produce the overall image quality of a reference LCOS in a private home theater. If your screen is only 10' wide or so, then you might want to re-think. I mean, I wouldn't go to a typical commercial theater unless I felt the need to screen a film prior to seeing what it really can look like at home upon blu-ray release. Sure, there are specialty theaters here and there in the US, but I'm not near one.

A properly setup and calibrated 3 chip dlp can do everything a LCOS can do except on/off cr.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45392265)
Tell that to Dolby.


Seegs says that TI is intentionally sabotaging the DLP market so that manufacturers cannot use DMDs in series to destroy 3LCD and LCoS.

DLP should rule all segments of the market.
It reeks of collusion.

To start, is that Seegs says or Seegs thinks?

Who would TI be colluding with? Themselves?

TheronB 07-16-2016 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45392753)
A properly setup and calibrated 3 chip dlp can do everything a LCOS can do except on/off cr.




To start, is that Seegs says or Seegs thinks?

Who would TI be colluding with? Themselves?


Seegs said only Dolby and maybe a few others have the license to use DMDs in series. Therefore, TI is clearly sabotaging the market rather than allowing free use of DMDs after they have been purchased.

Colluding with high end theaters so that home theaters cannot match the experience or colluding with Sony, Epson and JVC so that they can control the middle market while DLP controls the low end and high end markets. Take your pick. Do you think BenQ, Optoma, InFocus etc.... wouldn't put two DMDs in series and destroy the JVCs for a few thousand less unless TI and the others weren't holding them back?

Multiple DMDs have 68% efficiency per DMD, so even lamp based projectors could output 1000 calibrated lumens.

This whole scenario reeks of something beyond shady. 3LCD and LCoS should be obsolete.

pnauts 07-16-2016 07:54 AM

Disappointed that the topic turn in VS between LDC/DLP.
It's not the initial subject, but the 1 current competitive powerful modern DLP VS past 3DLPs.
My screen width is 12ft. 1.77 ratio.

Ericglo 07-16-2016 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45393025)
Disappointed that the topic turn in VS between LDC/DLP.
It's not the initial subject, but the 1 current competitive powerful modern DLP VS past 3DLPs.
My screen width is 12ft. 1.77 ratio.

What do you expect? I am not sure you said whether you have seen any of the LCOS pjs. Members want to help you get the best image on your screen. If you haven't seen a LCOS pj, then you might have found it preferable to DLP.

That being said you did say you want a 3 chip, so good luck in your search.


@theron ,
You need to go back and reread Seeg's post.

TheronB 07-16-2016 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45393025)
Disappointed that the topic turn in VS between LDC/DLP.
It's not the initial subject, but the 1 current competitive powerful modern DLP VS past 3DLPs.
My screen width is 12ft. 1.77 ratio.


You got the answer already. At around 5K, LCoS is going to give you the best performance, but you can pick up a 3 chip DLP around the same price. TI has some unknown motive not to dominate all segments of the market.

TheronB 07-16-2016 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45393281)
What do you expect? I am not sure you said whether you have seen any of the LCOS pjs. Members want to help you get the best image on your screen. If you haven't seen a LCOS pj, then you might have found it preferable to DLP.

That being said you did say you want a 3 chip, so good luck in your search.


@theron ,
You need to go back and reread Seeg's post.

He explicitly said TI won't license DMDs in series to any manufacturer. How is that not sabotaging the market?

Ericglo 07-16-2016 08:34 AM

@theron ,
How old are you? Going off of one comment by Dillon is not fact. He does not work for TI, so he is not privy to the reason or reasons TI doesn't license this technology.

DMD/DLP is no longer a big market for TI. That market bombed when RPTVs were killed by flat panels.

jh901 07-16-2016 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45392753)
A properly setup and calibrated 3 chip dlp can do everything a LCOS can do except on/off cr.

On a huge multi-plex screen? The OP referenced "professional theater", so that is what I was responding to. The only advantages a commercial theater will have over my relatively modest black pit is lots of seating and screen size.

How much will a DLP cost to fill a 12ft wide screen with an image which overall beats an RS500/600?

TheronB 07-16-2016 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45393673)
@theron ,
How old are you? Going off of one comment by Dillon is not fact. He does not work for TI, so he is not privy to the reason or reasons TI doesn't license this technology.

DMD/DLP is no longer a big market for TI. That market bombed when RPTVs were killed by flat panels.


https://e2e.ti.com/support/dlp__mems_micro-electro-mechanical_systems/f/947/p/332242/1455769#pi319142filter=all&pi319142scroll=false

Plus the exclusive licensing = pure shadiness.

If the market is small for them now, why not corner every segment by licensing freely?

Again, it reeks of collusion. At best, they are purposely holding back technology to prevent long upgrade cycles. Either is pathetic.

TheronB 07-16-2016 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh901 (Post 45394497)
On a huge multi-plex screen? The OP referenced "professional theater", so that is what I was responding to. The only advantages a commercial theater will have over my relatively modest black pit is lots of seating and screen size.

How much will a DLP cost to fill a 12ft wide screen with an image which overall beats an RS500/600?

Easily less than 3K if TI would let it happen.

jh901 07-16-2016 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45395049)
Easily less than 3K if TI would let it happen.

Even I fully accept this as fact, then it still helps no one. The OP has been convinced that since commercial theaters us DLP, then that must be best for the home. There's only a fraction of members playing in the 15'+ wide end of the home theater pool (which require DLP light). So that said, if there is a better option around $5,000 for a 12' wide screen than the JVC, then it would benefit the OP to know about it.

stanger89 07-16-2016 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45393025)
Disappointed that the topic turn in VS between LDC/DLP.
It's not the initial subject, but the 1 current competitive powerful modern DLP VS past 3DLPs.
My screen width is 12ft. 1.77 ratio.

Call Craig Peer, at AVS. He's had it all, he sold his Sim2 Lumis in lieu of a JVC RS600 and I think he got a Sony VW600. Kris Deering (reviews projectors for S&V IIRC) also dumped DLP for LCoS. IMO this speaks volumes.

DLP performance has been stagnant for almost a decade, really nothing has changed since the Planar 8150/Sim2 Lumis. Meanwhile the competition (JVC/Sony) have made enormous strides in picture quality.

You might be able to do a bit better than your 5080, but there's no magic that's happened that will make a new DLP, or an old 3chip DLP significantly better than what you have.

However, a new JVC RS500 will be a huge upgrade.

Mike Garrett 07-16-2016 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45395049)
Easily less than 3K if TI would let it happen.

I do not know that I would accept that as fact. LCD is one of the cheapest units out there due to the volume of LCD chips produced and a 5040 is going to cost $3,000. So why would you think a brand new product with new development cost and limited quantity be able to come in at the same price? Remember this is not the same thing as adding a second chip onto a 1,000 DLP. Those cheap DLP's usually have very limited throw and little to no lens shift. It brings down the lens cost and projector cost, doing so.

pnauts 07-16-2016 12:18 PM

I'll have a look to this JVC to my store (but I wish see also a Lumis, not easy, for info I live in France)

stanger89 07-16-2016 01:20 PM

A lot has changed in the last 5-10 years in projection. DLP is no longer the king, in fact, it's (sadly) not even a contender really. It may have an edge in reliability, but only in the commercial market applications which are significantly different than the home environment (lots more hours, lots bigger lamps/more heat).

Mike Garrett 07-16-2016 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45397113)
I'll have a look to this JVC to my store (but I wish see also a Lumis, not easy, for info I live in France)

Craig had a Sim2 Lumis. Sold it when he got the JVC RS600.


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