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-   -   Is old Hi-end ould be a good choice ? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514513-old-hi-end-ould-good-choice.html)

pnauts 07-13-2016 08:59 AM

Is old Hi-end could be a good choice ?
 
Hi, I have a Vivitek H5080 purchased from a member here and I wish move to a 3 DLP PJ, yes the grail.
Is some old glory could be still at the top today and superior to current cheapest mono DLP
I think on Sim2 C3X 1080 (DC4 but built looks cheap, a lot of plastic inside), Sim2HT5000 (DC3, heavy, no 1080p 24 ?) or Digital Projection 250 1080p (looks built as pro but according to someone I discussed with, reliability was not at the top, and less performance than Sim2 lumis) ?
Advice of owners would be appreciated.

Mike Garrett 07-13-2016 10:51 AM

I would skip that and look at a JVC. Will have very good brightness and much better contrast. Also will be able to play UHD BD.

Seegs108 07-13-2016 12:16 PM

If you're looking to step up to a 3 chip DLP at a cheaper price compared to the Sim2 units. I'd look into the Digital Projection Cine 260HC.

Craig Peer 07-13-2016 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45328409)
Hi, I have a Vivitek H5080 purchased from a member here and I wish move to a 3 DLP PJ, yes the grail.
Is some old glory could be still at the top today and superior to current cheapest mono DLP
I think on Sim2 C3X 1080 (DC4 but built looks cheap, a lot of plastic inside), Sim2HT5000 (DC3, heavy, no 1080p 24 ?) or Digital Projection 250 1080p (looks built as pro but according to someone I discussed with, reliability was not at the top, and less performance than Sim2 lumis) ?
Advice of owners would be appreciated.

I owned a Sim Lumis Host for 6 1/2 years. Great projector. If you can get a good deal on a lightly used one, and you don't care about 4K ( plenty of great movies on Blu ray at bargain prices ), why not?

pnauts 07-13-2016 12:35 PM

Thanks for your feedback, I don't want L-Cos or LCDs, 3 chip DLP in 1080 is the only technology I wish have for the moment (and rather 0.95").
Craig, to you what will be a great deal ?

Craig Peer 07-13-2016 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45334401)
Thanks for your feedback, I don't want L-Cos or LCDs, 3 chip DLP in 1080 is the only technology I wish have for the moment (and rather 0.95").
Craig, to you what will be a great deal ?

Depends on the model. $ 4K - 5K or so, depending on age, condition and accessories.

Mike Garrett 07-13-2016 01:21 PM

Lot of money to invest in a 5 to 9 year old projector.

Craig Peer 07-13-2016 01:59 PM

But a fraction of the original price. I see a D.P. Titan for sale in the classifieds, and a Sim Lumis.

stanger89 07-13-2016 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45334401)
Thanks for your feedback, I don't want L-Cos or LCDs, 3 chip DLP in 1080 is the only technology I wish have for the moment (and rather 0.95").

Have you seen the latest JVCs? I think I understand where you're coming from, I had all DLPs, I still have my Planar 8150. I was leery of LCoS for a long time. But almost a year ago I finally picked up a JVC RS4910, and I'm sold. Well, what I should say is I understand why Mike, Craig, Kris, Seegs, Zombie, etc have all moved on from DLP. I've got the JVC and the Planar up in my HT and while I can't speak to generations prior, with the RS49 generation, JVC has basically made it to parity with DLP in things like motion, sharpness, etc. Between the two machines, there is really only one issue I have with each, the JVC's input lag is a problem for gaming, and the Planar's contrast just isn't a match for the JVC.

So if you haven't seen a JVC, and you're ruling them out based on ideas that they have poor motion, sharpness, pop, etc, I'd say your worries are outdated and I'd seriously look at an RS500.

jh901 07-13-2016 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45334401)
Thanks for your feedback, I don't want L-Cos or LCDs, 3 chip DLP in 1080 is the only technology I wish have for the moment (and rather 0.95").

Do you take pleasure in the "technology" or the quality of the image? You should ask yourself that first.

pnauts 07-16-2016 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh901 (Post 45337721)
Do you take pleasure in the "technology" or the quality of the image? You should ask yourself that first.

No of course, this is a personal choice regarding testimony about bad LCD aging. And Considering that professional theater using DLP.

jh901 07-16-2016 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45389809)
No of course, this is a personal choice regarding testimony about bad LCD aging. And Considering that professional theater using DLP.

DLP in theaters will not produce the overall image quality of a reference LCOS in a private home theater. If your screen is only 10' wide or so, then you might want to re-think. I mean, I wouldn't go to a typical commercial theater unless I felt the need to screen a film prior to seeing what it really can look like at home upon blu-ray release. Sure, there are specialty theaters here and there in the US, but I'm not near one.

TheronB 07-16-2016 07:09 AM

Tell that to Dolby.


Seegs says that TI is intentionally sabotaging the DLP market so that manufacturers cannot use DMDs in series to destroy 3LCD and LCoS.

DLP should rule all segments of the market.
It reeks of collusion.

Mike Garrett 07-16-2016 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45389809)
No of course, this is a personal choice regarding testimony about bad LCD aging. And Considering that professional theater using DLP.

I would be very disappointed if the image in my theater looked like what I see at our local commercial cinema. I have better contrast, better sharpness and better color saturation.

Added
Our local theater is not a good example of DLP. Also the environment of commercial cinemas, hurt the image quality, due to the maintained brightness in the room for safety standards.

Ericglo 07-16-2016 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh901 (Post 45391873)
DLP in theaters will not produce the overall image quality of a reference LCOS in a private home theater. If your screen is only 10' wide or so, then you might want to re-think. I mean, I wouldn't go to a typical commercial theater unless I felt the need to screen a film prior to seeing what it really can look like at home upon blu-ray release. Sure, there are specialty theaters here and there in the US, but I'm not near one.

A properly setup and calibrated 3 chip dlp can do everything a LCOS can do except on/off cr.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45392265)
Tell that to Dolby.


Seegs says that TI is intentionally sabotaging the DLP market so that manufacturers cannot use DMDs in series to destroy 3LCD and LCoS.

DLP should rule all segments of the market.
It reeks of collusion.

To start, is that Seegs says or Seegs thinks?

Who would TI be colluding with? Themselves?

TheronB 07-16-2016 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45392753)
A properly setup and calibrated 3 chip dlp can do everything a LCOS can do except on/off cr.




To start, is that Seegs says or Seegs thinks?

Who would TI be colluding with? Themselves?


Seegs said only Dolby and maybe a few others have the license to use DMDs in series. Therefore, TI is clearly sabotaging the market rather than allowing free use of DMDs after they have been purchased.

Colluding with high end theaters so that home theaters cannot match the experience or colluding with Sony, Epson and JVC so that they can control the middle market while DLP controls the low end and high end markets. Take your pick. Do you think BenQ, Optoma, InFocus etc.... wouldn't put two DMDs in series and destroy the JVCs for a few thousand less unless TI and the others weren't holding them back?

Multiple DMDs have 68% efficiency per DMD, so even lamp based projectors could output 1000 calibrated lumens.

This whole scenario reeks of something beyond shady. 3LCD and LCoS should be obsolete.

pnauts 07-16-2016 07:54 AM

Disappointed that the topic turn in VS between LDC/DLP.
It's not the initial subject, but the 1 current competitive powerful modern DLP VS past 3DLPs.
My screen width is 12ft. 1.77 ratio.

Ericglo 07-16-2016 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45393025)
Disappointed that the topic turn in VS between LDC/DLP.
It's not the initial subject, but the 1 current competitive powerful modern DLP VS past 3DLPs.
My screen width is 12ft. 1.77 ratio.

What do you expect? I am not sure you said whether you have seen any of the LCOS pjs. Members want to help you get the best image on your screen. If you haven't seen a LCOS pj, then you might have found it preferable to DLP.

That being said you did say you want a 3 chip, so good luck in your search.


@theron ,
You need to go back and reread Seeg's post.

TheronB 07-16-2016 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45393025)
Disappointed that the topic turn in VS between LDC/DLP.
It's not the initial subject, but the 1 current competitive powerful modern DLP VS past 3DLPs.
My screen width is 12ft. 1.77 ratio.


You got the answer already. At around 5K, LCoS is going to give you the best performance, but you can pick up a 3 chip DLP around the same price. TI has some unknown motive not to dominate all segments of the market.

TheronB 07-16-2016 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45393281)
What do you expect? I am not sure you said whether you have seen any of the LCOS pjs. Members want to help you get the best image on your screen. If you haven't seen a LCOS pj, then you might have found it preferable to DLP.

That being said you did say you want a 3 chip, so good luck in your search.


@theron ,
You need to go back and reread Seeg's post.

He explicitly said TI won't license DMDs in series to any manufacturer. How is that not sabotaging the market?

Ericglo 07-16-2016 08:34 AM

@theron ,
How old are you? Going off of one comment by Dillon is not fact. He does not work for TI, so he is not privy to the reason or reasons TI doesn't license this technology.

DMD/DLP is no longer a big market for TI. That market bombed when RPTVs were killed by flat panels.

jh901 07-16-2016 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45392753)
A properly setup and calibrated 3 chip dlp can do everything a LCOS can do except on/off cr.

On a huge multi-plex screen? The OP referenced "professional theater", so that is what I was responding to. The only advantages a commercial theater will have over my relatively modest black pit is lots of seating and screen size.

How much will a DLP cost to fill a 12ft wide screen with an image which overall beats an RS500/600?

TheronB 07-16-2016 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45393673)
@theron ,
How old are you? Going off of one comment by Dillon is not fact. He does not work for TI, so he is not privy to the reason or reasons TI doesn't license this technology.

DMD/DLP is no longer a big market for TI. That market bombed when RPTVs were killed by flat panels.


https://e2e.ti.com/support/dlp__mems_micro-electro-mechanical_systems/f/947/p/332242/1455769#pi319142filter=all&pi319142scroll=false

Plus the exclusive licensing = pure shadiness.

If the market is small for them now, why not corner every segment by licensing freely?

Again, it reeks of collusion. At best, they are purposely holding back technology to prevent long upgrade cycles. Either is pathetic.

TheronB 07-16-2016 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh901 (Post 45394497)
On a huge multi-plex screen? The OP referenced "professional theater", so that is what I was responding to. The only advantages a commercial theater will have over my relatively modest black pit is lots of seating and screen size.

How much will a DLP cost to fill a 12ft wide screen with an image which overall beats an RS500/600?

Easily less than 3K if TI would let it happen.

jh901 07-16-2016 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45395049)
Easily less than 3K if TI would let it happen.

Even I fully accept this as fact, then it still helps no one. The OP has been convinced that since commercial theaters us DLP, then that must be best for the home. There's only a fraction of members playing in the 15'+ wide end of the home theater pool (which require DLP light). So that said, if there is a better option around $5,000 for a 12' wide screen than the JVC, then it would benefit the OP to know about it.

stanger89 07-16-2016 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45393025)
Disappointed that the topic turn in VS between LDC/DLP.
It's not the initial subject, but the 1 current competitive powerful modern DLP VS past 3DLPs.
My screen width is 12ft. 1.77 ratio.

Call Craig Peer, at AVS. He's had it all, he sold his Sim2 Lumis in lieu of a JVC RS600 and I think he got a Sony VW600. Kris Deering (reviews projectors for S&V IIRC) also dumped DLP for LCoS. IMO this speaks volumes.

DLP performance has been stagnant for almost a decade, really nothing has changed since the Planar 8150/Sim2 Lumis. Meanwhile the competition (JVC/Sony) have made enormous strides in picture quality.

You might be able to do a bit better than your 5080, but there's no magic that's happened that will make a new DLP, or an old 3chip DLP significantly better than what you have.

However, a new JVC RS500 will be a huge upgrade.

Mike Garrett 07-16-2016 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45395049)
Easily less than 3K if TI would let it happen.

I do not know that I would accept that as fact. LCD is one of the cheapest units out there due to the volume of LCD chips produced and a 5040 is going to cost $3,000. So why would you think a brand new product with new development cost and limited quantity be able to come in at the same price? Remember this is not the same thing as adding a second chip onto a 1,000 DLP. Those cheap DLP's usually have very limited throw and little to no lens shift. It brings down the lens cost and projector cost, doing so.

pnauts 07-16-2016 12:18 PM

I'll have a look to this JVC to my store (but I wish see also a Lumis, not easy, for info I live in France)

stanger89 07-16-2016 01:20 PM

A lot has changed in the last 5-10 years in projection. DLP is no longer the king, in fact, it's (sadly) not even a contender really. It may have an edge in reliability, but only in the commercial market applications which are significantly different than the home environment (lots more hours, lots bigger lamps/more heat).

Mike Garrett 07-16-2016 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45397113)
I'll have a look to this JVC to my store (but I wish see also a Lumis, not easy, for info I live in France)

Craig had a Sim2 Lumis. Sold it when he got the JVC RS600.

TheronB 07-16-2016 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanger89 (Post 45397985)
A lot has changed in the last 5-10 years in projection. DLP is no longer the king, in fact, it's (sadly) not even a contender really. It may have an edge in reliability, but only in the commercial market applications which are significantly different than the home environment (lots more hours, lots bigger lamps/more heat).

I bet the 4K DLP DMDs will be sharper than LCoS just as with 1080p.
Better motion with DLP.
Brightness is fine with both.
Contrast goes to LCoS until DMDs finally get put in series.

Then 3LCD and LCoS will only be preferred by those ultra-sensitive to RBE.

There must be something shady going on in back rooms that is keeping DLP from destroying 3LCD and LCoS.
My money is on Dolby doing whatever it takes to make Dolby Vision theaters look better.

pnauts 07-17-2016 12:57 AM

Which Lumis ?
a 3D-S ?

stanger89 07-17-2016 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45404769)
I bet the 4K DLP DMDs will be sharper than LCoS just as with 1080p.
Better motion with DLP.

I can't tell a difference between my JVC RS4910 and my Planar 8150 in either of those areas.

Quote:

There must be something shady going on in back rooms that is keeping DLP from destroying 3LCD and LCoS.
My money is on Dolby doing whatever it takes to make Dolby Vision theaters look better.
Are you planing to crash every new projector thread whining about not being able to get a stacked DLP projector? Do you really expect that to accomplish anything?

TheronB 07-17-2016 07:35 PM

Take pics with a high end dSLR and look at them blown up, you'll see a clear difference.

Yup, the more attention the issue gets, the more likely it will be rectified.

I will complain for 120Hz/4K as well. Every new product should support it.

Mike Garrett 07-17-2016 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45418697)
Take pics with a high end dSLR and look at them blown up, you'll see a clear difference.

Yup, the more attention the issue gets, the more likely it will be rectified.

I will complain for 120Hz/4K as well. Every new product should support it.

What does it matter if he can't tell a difference, when doing actual viewing on the screen?

TheronB 07-17-2016 08:08 PM

For him it may not matter, but for others it may.

Some think DLP is harsh and LCoS is smooth.
Others think LCoS is soft and DLP is sharp.

I was just pointing out the difference can be verified.

stanger89 07-18-2016 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45418697)
Take pics with a high end dSLR and look at them blown up, you'll see a clear difference.

Like the OP, your information appears outdated. JVC has made a lot of progress in the past 10 years on their projectors. I was right there with you two until I actually bought an RS4910 about a year ago from AVS, so I could see one for myself. They had a deal on some, and I sort of figured I'd just sell it off, but it ended up changing my mind about the state of projectors. The JVC's live up to the hype regarding contrast, and I found out for my self why Kris Deering, Craig Peer, Seegs, Zombie and all the others have "dropped" DLPs and moved over to JVC for the ultimate in picture quality (at least in the <$10k). I've still got my Planar 8150 hanging right in front of my RS4910, so I can compare them any time I want. I've only still got the Planar because my one problem with the JVC is lag, and I just can't game on it, which is unfortunate because games look beautiful on it.

Obviously the images aren't identical, but there aren't any issues with optical/pixel sharpness on the JVC vs the Planar, no are there any motion issues that I have noticed, and frankly I don't intend to go looking for them. Kind of like I don't intend to go looking for RBE on the Planar.

I've still got a soft spot for DLP, but until we get stacked DMDs, they just can't compete in overall image quality due to the comparatively poor contrast.

I'm actually debating if I'm going to grab an RS500 sometime this fall. I'll need to see how some home projects line up and get my RS4910 sold first though.

rboster 07-18-2016 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanger89 (Post 45422457)
Like the OP, your information appears outdated. JVC has made a lot of progress in the past 10 years on their projectors. I was right there with you two until I actually bought an RS4910 about a year ago from AVS, so I could see one for myself. They had a deal on some, and I sort of figured I'd just sell it off, but it ended up changing my mind about the state of projectors. The JVC's live up to the hype regarding contrast, and I found out for my self why Kris Deering, Craig Peer, Seegs, Zombie and all the others have "dropped" DLPs and moved over to JVC for the ultimate in picture quality (at least in the <$10k). I've still got my Planar 8150 hanging right in front of my RS4910, so I can compare them any time I want. I've only still got the Planar because my one problem with the JVC is lag, and I just can't game on it, which is unfortunate because games look beautiful on it.

Obviously the images aren't identical, but there aren't any issues with optical/pixel sharpness on the JVC vs the Planar, no are there any motion issues that I have noticed, and frankly I don't intend to go looking for them. Kind of like I don't intend to go looking for RBE on the Planar.

I've still got a soft spot for DLP, but until we get stacked DMDs, they just can't compete in overall image quality due to the comparatively poor contrast.

I'm actually debating if I'm going to grab an RS500 sometime this fall. I'll need to see how some home projects line up and get my RS4910 sold first though.

I had a very similar experience. I owned the planar 8150 and took the leap of faith when i bought the jvc 57. I could not have been more surprised (and happier) with the purchase. I came from being a die hard dlp fan to embracing the jvc LCoS. I have since stepped up and purchased the JVC RS500...another step forward for in the evolution of their image.

pnauts 07-21-2016 12:20 PM

A lot of comparison is made between single chip DMD vs 3 Lcos, 1 chip DMD is not the subject, in DLP if I move from my current one to another DLP it will be 3DMDs only.

Mike Garrett 07-21-2016 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45503713)
A lot of comparison is made between single chip DMD vs 3 Lcos, 1 chip DMD is not the subject, in DLP if I move from my current one to another DLP it will be 3DMDs only.

People went to 3-chip DLP for the lumens, but that was because there was a huge difference in lumen output between LCOS and 3-chip DLP. LCOS just could not light up a 14' wide screen, so 3-chip DLP won by default. That is not the case anymore. An RS500 can light up a 14' wide Stewart ST130 screen in low lamp. Like people have been telling you, there is a reason why many of us have moved from DLP to LCOS and that is because of all the improvements in LCOS over the years. 3-chip DLP can still do a lot more lumens, but only at 2,000:1 to 3,000:1 native contrast.

rboster 07-21-2016 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45503713)
A lot of comparison is made between single chip DMD vs 3 Lcos, 1 chip DMD is not the subject, in DLP if I move from my current one to another DLP it will be 3DMDs only.

You should open yourself up to alternative suggestions the membership is providing. It's to your benefit to read with an open mind the experiences of others.

stanger89 07-21-2016 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45503713)
A lot of comparison is made between single chip DMD vs 3 Lcos, 1 chip DMD is not the subject, in DLP if I move from my current one to another DLP it will be 3DMDs only.

If you want to spend the same amount of money (or a lot more) for less performance go ahead.

Everything I've read, from people who I trust and have had/seen both is that there really isn't anything that special about 3DLP. The only benefits over 1DLP are lumens and no RBE, and the later is only a benefit if you're sensitive to it. So yes, a 3 chip DLP might be a step up from your Vivitek, but it will likely be a small step up compared to a RS500, and for a similar cost. I think all of the 3DLPs you list in your OP lack dynamic iris's, and DLP really needs that to have decent black levels. If you really want a 3DLP, you're going to want to look for a Lumis (make sure it's a DI-equipped one) or Runco LS-12D. Last used Lumis I inquired about was $5000 IIRC, looks like the Lumis 3Ds are in the $10k+ range. The former is in the ballpark of an RS500 and far more than an RS400, and the later is in the ballpark of an RS600.

TheronB 07-21-2016 10:49 PM

That's why we need stacked .65" DMDs in the 5K range, single .95" DMDs in the 1.5K range and stacked .95" DMDs in the 10K range.
There is no way there isn't massive profit there, and TI would rule all segments.

Mike Garrett 07-22-2016 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45513889)
That's why we need stacked .65" DMDs in the 5K range, single .95" DMDs in the 1.5K range and stacked .95" DMDs in the 10K range.
There is no way there isn't massive profit there, and TI would rule all segments.

If that ever happens, then the projectors will be junk projectors like most of the current under 1K projectors. In other words missing features, small throw range and cheap lens. Also if that is what is available, then all of the remaining brick & mortar dealers will go away.

TheronB 07-22-2016 05:23 AM

Small or no throw range and no lens shift means good lenses can be made much more cheaply. Not everyone cares about throw range, for it's easy to just ceiling mount in the proper location.

What features would you expect to be missing? Even some entry level projectors have DFI and 12 volt triggers along with good calibration tools. Anamorphic lens support would probably be there for some as well.

Mike Garrett 07-22-2016 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45516409)
Small or no throw range and no lens shift means good lenses can be made much more cheaply. Not everyone cares about throw range, for it's easy to just ceiling mount in the proper location.

What features would you expect to be missing? Even some entry level projectors have DFI and 12 volt triggers along with good calibration tools. Anamorphic lens support would probably be there for some as well.

Limited throw and no lens shift eliminates a projector from consideration for most of the customers that I deal with.

rboster 07-22-2016 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45516409)
Small or no throw range and no lens shift means good lenses can be made much more cheaply. Not everyone cares about throw range, for it's easy to just ceiling mount in the proper location.
.

Maybe those short comings/lack of features works for the market you see in the mirror, but you don't speak for many, many other customers. AND, if a company wants to (potentially) grow the projector market.

Mike Garrett 07-22-2016 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rboster (Post 45517041)
Maybe those short comings/lack of features works for the market you see in the mirror, but you don't speak for many, many other customers. AND, if a company wants to (potentially) grow the projector market.

If what TheronB wants to happen, does happen, I hope I am retired by then. Because it will certainly mean it is time to get out. There would be no money in it for a dealer. I am all for a good product at a fair price, but you have to be able to make a profit, otherwise you are gone.

TheronB 07-22-2016 06:36 AM

No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself. ;)

TheronB 07-22-2016 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rboster (Post 45517041)
Maybe those short comings/lack of features works for the market you see in the mirror, but you don't speak for many, many other customers. AND, if a company wants to (potentially) grow the projector market.

They can have a higher end model with all those features as well.

Mike Garrett 07-22-2016 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45517681)
No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself. ;)

So are you a farmer or a manufacturer? Because if not, then would you not also be unemployed with your wishes? :)

rboster 07-22-2016 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45517681)
No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself. ;)

Maybe it's time to cut out everyone and live off the grid...just go straight to the source...mother earth. ;)

Mike Garrett 07-22-2016 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rboster (Post 45520105)
Maybe it's time to cut out everyone and live off the grid...just go straight to the source...mother earth. ;)

I wonder how hard I would have to pedal that manual generator to be able to watch a movie on my projector. :) Either that or I would have to move, since neither solar nor wind power would work for me at my house.

erkq 07-22-2016 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45517681)
No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself. ;)

If that were the case you would not have this forum to consult.

erkq 07-22-2016 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45516409)
Small or no throw range and no lens shift means good lenses can be made much more cheaply. Not everyone cares about throw range, for it's easy to just ceiling mount in the proper location.

What features would you expect to be missing? Even some entry level projectors have DFI and 12 volt triggers along with good calibration tools. Anamorphic lens support would probably be there for some as well.

You can't ceiling mount a projector without lens shift. Unless you'e talking a fixed lens shift. In that case, with the fixed throw range you're wanting your screen size directly determines the projector height. It you want a screen width that puts the projector inside your ceiling, too bad. No throw range, no lens shift... no sale... really... extremely limiting.

TheronB 07-22-2016 05:22 PM

Shelf/table mounting is also easy.

Like I said, they can have higher end models with lens shift and zoom.

The point is that TI is holding progress back for some reason.

Dave in Green 07-22-2016 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45517681)
... That's why the UK left the EU. ...

Let us know in a few years how that works out.

Ericglo 07-22-2016 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45530961)
Shelf/table mounting is also easy.

Like I said, they can have higher end models with lens shift and zoom.

The point is that TI is holding progress back for some reason.


Maybe it isn't profitable for them.

TheronB 07-22-2016 06:36 PM

A lot can be said for offering good, not best, quality for low prices. Ask Walmart or Vizio.

You can buy DMDs under $200 online, so direct from TI in bulk they would be dirt cheap.
Add 1K for optics, 1K for lamp/electronics/housing, $500 for stacked DMDs.

That's 2.5K....sell it at 5K. Amazing performance, amazing profit, especially since my price estimates are extremely inflated.

You could add another 1K for LEDs or lasers and sell at 7K.

Obviously someone doesn't want this happening. Is it TI, Dolby, or the manufacturers?

rboster 07-22-2016 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45532057)

Obviously someone doesn't want this happening. Is it TI, Dolby, or the manufacturers?

Movie night? :D

http://www.votersopinion.com/wp-cont...8/tin-foil.jpg

Just having a little fun.

appreciate your commitment to the concept, but don't agree with it or your view of the market place.

erkq 07-22-2016 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45532057)
A lot can be said for offering good, not best, quality for low prices. Ask Walmart or Vizio.

You can buy DMDs under $200 online, so direct from TI in bulk they would be dirt cheap.
Add 1K for optics, 1K for lamp/electronics/housing, $500 for stacked DMDs.

That's 2.5K....sell it at 5K. Amazing performance, amazing profit, especially since my price estimates are extremely inflated.

You could add another 1K for LEDs or lasers and sell at 7K.

Obviously someone doesn't want this happening. Is it TI, Dolby, or the manufacturers?

You'd go broke trying to sell something for $5k on the retail market that had a $2.5k parts cost.

Ericglo 07-22-2016 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45532057)
A lot can be said for offering good, not best, quality for low prices. Ask Walmart or Vizio.

You can buy DMDs under $200 online, so direct from TI in bulk they would be dirt cheap.
Add 1K for optics, 1K for lamp/electronics/housing, $500 for stacked DMDs.

That's 2.5K....sell it at 5K. Amazing performance, amazing profit, especially since my price estimates are extremely inflated.

You could add another 1K for LEDs or lasers and sell at 7K.

Obviously someone doesn't want this happening. Is it TI, Dolby, or the manufacturers?

If it is so easy, then why don't you start your own company?

airscapes 07-22-2016 08:37 PM

I want a Unicorn! :):D

TheronB 07-22-2016 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkq (Post 45533161)
You'd go broke trying to sell something for $5k on the retail market that had a $2.5k parts cost.

Lol, you've never run a business obviously, especially if you have third world/cheap labor.
And, like I said, my parts cost was grossly exaggerated.

pnauts 07-23-2016 04:47 AM

There also PCB and components, plastic parts, R&D, reliability, EMC and performance to test, shipping, warranty, dealers $ ...in the price.

TheronB 07-23-2016 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnauts (Post 45536529)
There also PCB and components, plastic parts, R&D, reliability, EMC and performance to test, shipping, warranty, dealers $ ...in the price.

Already included mostly. No dealers...buying direct is much better and much of the shipping costs can be transferred to the buyers.

Plus these companies already have the infrastructure and can profit selling projectors under 1K now.

I read somewhere that TV manufacturers are happy with 5% net profit. You guys really think that isn't possible with the scenario I have given?

Ericglo 07-23-2016 07:41 AM

Again, why don't you start your own company?

TheronB 07-23-2016 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45538793)
Again, why don't you start your own company?

If you are willing to give me the capital.

Ericglo 07-23-2016 07:47 AM

What experience do you have in manufacturing?

erkq 07-23-2016 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 45538913)
What experience do you have in manufacturing?

I think he's told us. :)

TheronB 07-23-2016 09:54 AM

None in electronics manufacturing, but I have experience in bearing and powerboat engineering and chemical engineering.

I have no interest in manufacturing projectors, just pointing out possibilities.

Ericglo 07-23-2016 11:12 AM

Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttt!:rolleyes:

You seem to know the ends and outs of manufacturing dlp projectors and what they should cost. If you don't want to pursue it yourself, then why should anyone else?

TheronB 07-23-2016 05:17 PM

Can't people just discuss things of interest? I'm not sure why you feel my estimates are so off. Why not discuss that instead of attack people?

erkq 07-23-2016 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45547457)
Can't people just discuss things of interest? I'm not sure why you feel my estimates are so off. Why not discuss that instead of attack people?

We are discussing that. What do you think we're discussing?

Your estimates are off because generally components should be 1/10 the retail cost because you have things like:

Labor and associated HR costs. This includes not only the direct labor but supervisors, janitors, plant engineers and the like. Then there's factory rent, factory utilities, admin offices and their rent and utilities, and depreciation of all the equipment. Then there's logistics and other transportation. Then there is all the government compliance stuff with CAL/OCEA, larbor practices and the like.

So then you have a product that you have to advertise and go looking for customers. That whole sales thing with support engineers and a sales force has to be put together. Huge. This doesn't even include those dreaded "middlemen" you speak of.

TheronB 07-23-2016 06:21 PM

But that simply isn't true. In most cases, gross profit over 35% can sustain a healthy business.

erkq 07-23-2016 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45534329)
Lol, you've never run a business obviously, especially if you have third world/cheap labor.
And, like I said, my parts cost was grossly exaggerated.

The company I ran was Quarterbyte Systems and now I'm retired. The Quarterbyte web site is hopelessly out of date because my retirement happened decades ago. I'm comfortable. I have a net worth of "many" rather than "a few", but not "10's". But, I guess I've never run a business.

erkq 07-23-2016 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45548193)
But that simply isn't true. In most cases, gross profit over 35% can sustain a healthy business.

It depends on what type of business and what the volume is. Grocery stores? 6%. The government gets more in sales tax. Manufacture of high-end boutique electronics? Not so much.

TheronB 07-23-2016 06:56 PM

If Sony is happy with 5% net on TVs, then I'm sure there is room there. Of course front projection is probably about 1% of flat panel sales, but these companies are shooting themselves in the foot by not offering better value. Who does the best in the projector market? BenQ and Epson. Probably because they offer competitive projector under 1K.

But if they would bring the 3K performance under 1K, their market percentage may double or more. Another 1% of the TV market is a heck of a lot more money than gouging the first 1%.

TI's old .95" 1080p DMDs would be perfect for offering high performance for a reasonable cost. Look what Vizio has accomplished doing the same.

rboster 07-23-2016 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45548721)
If Sony is happy with 5% net on TVs, then I'm sure there is room there. Of course front projection is probably about 1% of flat panel sales, but these companies are shooting themselves in the foot by not offering better value. Who does the best in the projector market? BenQ and Epson. Probably because they offer competitive projector under 1K.

But if they would bring the 3K performance under 1K, their market percentage may double or more. Another 1% of the TV market is a heck of a lot more money than gouging the first 1%.

TI's old .95" 1080p DMDs would be perfect for offering high performance for a reasonable cost. Look what Vizio has accomplished doing the same.


I'd love to see the footnotes that you are getting this data from. Do you have some links you can share?

TheronB 07-23-2016 07:31 PM

The Sony stuff is everywhere... Operating at a loss and hoping for 5%.

The rest is in every basic economics textbook.

I'm not saying they should sell Sim2 Lumis to everyone under 1K, but a nice fixed offset, no zoom, plastic lens if need be, 1000 lumens calibrated, 0.95" 1080p DMD PJ under 1K would be easy and rake in a nice net profit.

erkq 07-23-2016 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45549121)
The Sony stuff is everywhere... Operating at a loss and hoping for 5%.

The rest is in every basic economics textbook.

I'm not saying they should sell Sim2 Lumis to everyone under 1K, but a nice fixed offset, no zoom, plastic lens if need be, 1000 lumens calibrated, 0.95" 1080p DMD PJ under 1K would be easy and rake in a nice net profit.

That's 5% after all those other expenses I listed.

And a fixed offset, no zoom is a non-starter. Your max screen size is directly dictated by your ceiling height.

TheronB 07-23-2016 08:59 PM

-Exactly. If you can't net 5% with over 50% gross, especially with the cheap Asian labor (less than $3/hr, no sick pay, no insurance) these companies are using, the company is being horribly run.

They will of course have higher end models with the features you may want. We are talking entry level here. Many would be happy with the excellent 100-135" screen they would probably get with their preferred placement.

erkq 07-23-2016 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45550113)
-Exactly. If you can't net 5% with over 50% gross, especially with the cheap Asian labor (less than $3/hr, no sick pay, no insurance) these companies are using, the company is being horribly run.

They will of course have higher end models with the features you may want. We are talking entry level here. Many would be happy with the excellent 100-135" screen they would probably get with their preferred placement.

Write up a business plan and sell it to some investors.

Mike Garrett 07-24-2016 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45550113)
-Exactly. If you can't net 5% with over 50% gross, especially with the cheap Asian labor (less than $3/hr, no sick pay, no insurance) these companies are using, the company is being horribly run.

They will of course have higher end models with the features you may want. We are talking entry level here. Many would be happy with the excellent 100-135" screen they would probably get with their preferred placement.

Not talking entry level, when you want a 0.95" chip. You are not going to find any company crazy enough to use a 0.95" chip on a plastic lens projector with no zoom and no lens shift.

stanger89 07-24-2016 05:29 PM

And doing so would defeat the purpose of using the big DMD. Yes, the large DMD is a part of the equation, but without the rest of the package, it's just going to be a cheap projector.

ndabunka 07-24-2016 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45517681)
No offense to any dealers here, but that's the way I'd rather have it.

Buy my CPU straight from Intel, buy my meat and produce straight from the farmer...etc.

In the age of cheap, easy and fast global commerce, we have no need for middlemen. That's why the UK left the EU.

I don't mind paying for part of a dealer's trip to Hawaii, but there's no need to pay for the whole trip myself. ;)

A bit out of touch with reality aren't you? The farmer is CERTAINLY not going to bring you the meat & produce on THEIR dime so how are YOU going to get it? You can't buy the parts of a car and assemble them yourself so you can't build a car yourself and based on your approach, you would not buy one so I guess you plan on walking. You can buy individual computer components but as so MANY integrator's learned in the 80's, that does NOT mean that you have the ability to build a relizable, viable computer. You end up with bits and peices. Some good (like intel) while others are crap (like the Tsinko power supplies).

Dealers SHOULD make a profit but who are YOU to determine what that profits NEEDS to be to stay in business as you certainly are not their customer if your "wishes" are to be recognized.

Note: If you worked in the Powerboat industry you KNOW that Formula/Thunderbird and other similar companies make a LOT more than 5% net on their sales so why would you think that electronics would be successfull with such low profit margins?

TheronB 07-24-2016 11:22 PM

I get pork and beef delivered directly from the grower at their expense all the time. Local farmers are happy to do it because they get better prices than stockyards and the buyers get better prices than supermarkets. A lot better quality, too.

I'm well aware a powerboat manufacturer wants more than 5% net, we are talking flat panels and projectors mostly made by giant companies that don't need all their bread from one basket. Big difference.

ndabunka 07-24-2016 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheronB (Post 45568233)
I get pork and beef delivered directly from the grower at their expense all the time. Local farmers are happy to do it because they get better prices than stockyards and the buyers get better prices than supermarkets. A lot better quality, too.

I'm well aware a powerboat manufacturer wants more than 5% net, we are talking flat panels and projectors mostly made by giant companies that don't need all their bread from one basket. Big difference.

One side of my family are farmers. None would do that as they simply don't have the time to do so but if you found a local who is willing, good for you.

Internet forums are rife with people questioning manufacturer "costs" and then speculating due to a lack of understanding about what a company could or can not do (e.g. "trolling").

IMHO running a flat panel or projector company is no different than running a mass-production boat building operation. They all manufacture, distribute, market, etc. The fact that one company may be "larger" than the other doesn't really factor.
EOM

Drexler 07-25-2016 12:46 AM

The individual divisions of a company should be profitable, at least long term. Otherwise they will be shut down. Look at pioneer tvs for instance. Also, since home cinema projectors is such a small niche product economy of scale doesn't kick in. This means that all research and development costs needs to be recuperated on only a few units which means they need much higher margins.

Mike Garrett 07-25-2016 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drexler (Post 45568537)
The individual divisions of a company should be profitable, at least long term. Otherwise they will be shut down. Look at pioneer tvs for instance. Also, since home cinema projectors is such a small niche product economy of scale doesn't kick in. This means that all research and development costs needs to be recuperated on only a few units which means they need much higher margins.

Exactly. If you are selling a million TV's, your cost for R&D, overhead and manufacturing per TV is much lower than the company that is only selling a hundred thousand projectors.

ndabunka 07-25-2016 07:47 PM

To get this thread back inline...
There are SO MANY different older projectors, that it can be difficult for many of us to be able to comprehend what might be a good option. A now discontinued $8,999 projector appears to be available under $1K is the Sony VPL-VW100.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-VPL-VW1...3D222192241233

zombie10k 07-25-2016 08:00 PM

The VW100 isn't bright and has very expensive lamps. I think they had start up issues that required a modifications. There's always a ton of those on ebay.

A solid buy would be the Runco LS3. .95 DLP one of the best under 10K projectors from the time period. Still looks great today but contrast is a good bit behind LCOS. The OEM lamps are still available for ~$100. also low lag time if gaming is of interest.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Runco-LightS...-/172191209621

zombie10k 07-25-2016 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndabunka (Post 45589169)
That one needed one of the $800+ bulbs which would put it beyond the original $1K target. I see that I can buy the Sony VPL-HW30ES at around an average eBay price point of $650. I have no idea what I'd be loosing but that is almost 75% less than the current VPL-HW45ESs so that is a lot of savings there. I have NO IDEA what I'd be giving up but I do see that it has a HDMI port so I DO know that I would at least migrate from a component cable to HDMI with that unit.

The HW30 is a decent projector for that price point, I owned one years ago. It's about 1/2 the brightness of the HW45 and doesn't have reality creation processing which creates the perception of a sharper image. My friend still has one of these as his main projector in his HT.

not a bad buy for that price if it ships with a good lamp.

Stereodude 07-26-2016 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkq (Post 45550377)
Write up a business plan and sell it to some investors.

Personally, I look forward to seeing his Kickstarter campaign.

Ruined 07-26-2016 10:38 AM

While we are talking DLP, dont forget the current killer AVS powerbuy on a recently released 1000 calibrated lumens 0.95" LED DLP. If you have a 150" or under screen of modest gain one of best still in production under 10k DLPs w/ 5yr warranty:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...rojectors.html

airscapes 07-26-2016 03:58 PM

Have you checked the classified??
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/252-front-projector/

ndabunka 07-26-2016 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airscapes (Post 45607673)
Have you checked the classified??
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/252-front-projector/

The "problem" with the classifieds and most used models is that is seems that most all sellers are wanting $1,500 for anything of significant quality for their used equipment. At that point, most would simply pay a few hundred more for the NEW, fully warranted Sony 45ES or Epson 5030s.

I guess that is really what this thread is all about though. Seems that you can buy an older used JVC for between $1,500 & $2,200 that often has no warranty or you can pick up new, old stock modern non-JVC-level projectors that deliver 95% of the features & capabilities for right around that same price point so ...why bother with used high end when you can buy 95% new for the same price?

erkq 07-26-2016 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndabunka (Post 45608105)
...or you can pick up new, old stock modern non-JVC-level projectors that deliver 95% of the features & capabilities for right around that same price point so ...why bother with used high end when you can buy 95% new for the same price?

It's hard to find something selling for cheaper than a JVC that provides "95% of the features & capabilities for right around that same price point". 95% of the contrast? Not even close. 95% of the brightness? No, again. 95% of the P3 color? No. 95% of the HDR capability? No. 95% of JVC's excellent color tracking? No. What non-JVC-level projectors are you thinking of?

I just ask, because as an RS500 owner, I've never seen anything that approaches the 95% level of the JVC that costs the same or less.

ndabunka 07-26-2016 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkq (Post 45608433)
It's hard to find something selling for cheaper than a JVC that provides "95% of the features & capabilities for right around that same price point". 95% of the contrast? Not even close. 95% of the brightness? No, again. 95% of the P3 color? No. 95% of the HDR capability? No. 95% of JVC's excellent color tracking? No. What non-JVC-level projectors are you thinking of?

I just ask, because as an RS500 owner, I've never seen anything that approaches the 95% level of the JVC that costs the same or less.

Sigh
JVC's are excellent products so no argument there. However, you cut off the portion that shows the NEW projectors that are around the same price as the USED JVCs. The Sony VPL-HW45ES & Epson 5030ub's are both available under $2K and most AVS members on here are MORE THAN HAPPY with their performance. Not everyone wants or is willing to pay for minor (to them) incremental features.

Please keep in mind that YOUR definition of 95% and others may vary. Audio/video gear has a pretty steep diminishing ROI. I remember "discussions" with audio purest who felt that you needed to spend $20K on speakers but the reality was that you could buy mid-level B&Ws for $2K to $4K and have 95% of the sound, features, etc. Same thing here, the $2K Sony & Epsons are FAR MORE than sufficient for most AVS enthusiast.

stanger89 07-26-2016 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndabunka (Post 45608577)
Please keep in mind that YOUR definition of 95% and others may vary.

Well this is the whole problem, what are you expecting, especially in the high end forum? As you say, everyone's performance weighting differs. But I think you've found what some of us have been trying to tell you. If a projector produces good quality, it commands a "good" price, regardless of if it's new or used. Yes if you're willing to go used, you can save some money, but in general not a ton because people know what things are worth. That's why Sim2 Lumis' go for $5k still, and JVCs go for $1500+. You just can't get $5000 performance for $500 unless you're really, really lucky.

Quote:

JVC's are excellent products so no argument there. However, you cut off the portion that shows the NEW projectors that are around the same price as the USED JVCs. The Sony VPL-HW45ES & Epson 5030ub's are both available under $2K and most AVS members on here are MORE THAN HAPPY with their performance. Not everyone wants or is willing to pay for minor (to them) incremental features.
I would venture that most people who are happy with a Sony HW or Epson UB, that could afford a JVC, haven't seen one. There's a reason the JVCs are by far the most popular projectors on this forum.

Quote:

Audio/video gear has a pretty steep diminishing ROI. I remember "discussions" with audio purest who felt that you needed to spend $20K on speakers but the reality was that you could buy mid-level B&Ws for $2K to $4K and have 95% of the sound, features, etc. Same thing here, the $2K Sony & Epsons are FAR MORE than sufficient for most AVS enthusiast.
Speak for yourself.


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