Sony presented at IFA its new VPL-VW550ES pojector - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
judging by the 60p 10bit input? Where is this info from?
Info is from grobi.tv, a german HT dealer. The slide itself is from Sony. There are some more: http://www.grobi.tv/blog/nachfolger-...fa-vorgestellt

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post #32 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Eternal_Sunshine View Post
There is still conflicting information around the 18Gbps issue. But it looks like the chips are indeed upgraded.
The Sony (UK) website still says "The VPL-VW550ES can project content at up to 60 frames per second (fps) in 4K (at colour signal YCbCr 4:2:0 / 8 bit)" so i`m not sure what to believe?
Where did you find this chart?

Edit: Nevermind, ignore my last question..
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post #33 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 05:05 AM
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Yeah I think it is just marketing but lets wait and see.

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post #34 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 05:08 AM
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Website info is often notoriously late to be updated and often full of copy/paste mistakes. At this point I'm pretty sure the HDMI chips are full 18Gbps, but we will know for sure soon enough when cine4home et al. get their hands on the 550.
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post #35 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Eternal_Sunshine View Post
Website info is often notoriously late to be updated and often full of copy/paste mistakes. At this point I'm pretty sure the HDMI chips are full 18Gbps, but we will know for sure soon enough when cine4hone et al. get their hands on the 550.
If that's the case there is still hope.

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post #36 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 05:10 AM
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even if accurate it doesn't seem like a compelling enough update for 665 owners to upgrade. the DC change is small enough that it's likely a software tweak to the iris.

FI in 4K would have been a nice update.
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post #37 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 05:29 AM
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I've been holding onto my 320 to see if I should go for the new version of the 520 or the new laser JVC.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #38 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
I've been holding onto my 320 to see if I should go for the new version of the 520 or the new laser JVC.


And what are your thoughts?


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post #39 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by hasta666 View Post
And what are your thoughts?


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My initial thoughts seeing the specs of the 550 were "what a disappointment" and then I saw the details of the laser J and I said to myself this could be it if I can afford it. It now has the features that kept me with Sony, however it will come down to price.
Also we still need to clarify what they have actually achieved with the 550, we just do not know for sure yet but it does not look good so far.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #40 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 06:28 AM
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Still the new JVC is not in the same price range as the 550: it's pretty much 3x more expensive! The JVC is definitely out of my league.


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post #41 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 09:29 AM
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what is probably actually is going on here

So from Sony we have this image from the source linked earlier in this thread:



And using math we can easily see 10bit 4k 4:2:0 exceeds the 10.2Gbps limitations of the old HDMI implementation


As always, image courtesy of AVS forum member "safe91" from his awesome bible of all things HD (french)
http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/VideoSo...t_141366_1.htm

I am guessing the HDMI chips are actually the 18Gbps chips but the internal processing is likely unchanged hardware wise and probably doesn't have the bandwidth to feed 4k SXRD chips 18Gbps signals. Apparently, it made too much sense to use the processor from the 5000 (or their 4k TV line).

I guess they could justify dripping out 4k projector updates as slow as possible when they were the only manufacturer. But this year there will be real completion from DLP devices on the low end and of course JVC ob the high end.

Since they are following this "slow as possible updates" to their product line strategy perhaps we'll see a 1000/1100 class projector update with the 5000 processing next year (perhaps at CES?) Or we'll have to wait another year for IFA/CEDIA 2017 for the 1000/1100 or 500/600 series with real 18Gbps input capability.

I don't know about anyone else but I won't be waiting that long, I'll have a projector with a proper 4k 18Gbps HDMI implementation well before fall/winter 2017.

Sorry Sony, you had your chance and blew it (two years in a row)! I even already bought new Sony 3D glasses, still in the box, years ago awaiting a Sony PJ with a proper 4k UHD 4K HDMI implementation (under $60K).

The only good news about this update: since the physical link to your HDR UHD player/AVR processor has to be 18Gbps (600Mhz) it should at least cure most of the the UHD BluRay compatibility problems stemming from modern UHD 4k devices refusing to output HDR over the old 10.2Gbps (340Mhz) HDMI signal.
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post #42 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 12:46 PM
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The info seems right. Also look like it's confirm by many sources.

No 18gps, no full WCG support, same lumens, no MotionFlow in 4k.

Conclusion : same projector with very little modifications.
Not surprised, Sony would have to upgrade the cooling system somehow just to cool the MoBo off due to the amount of processing power it would take to implement Motionflow at 2160p.

That would require a separate board or total redesign of the current one.
They would also have to change the cabinet to house all the extra bits.

My GTX 980 is running at 70% capacity running a computer based FI system at 2160p...

These are the reasons (I believe to be) why the Sony 5000 is the only one they have that can do MF at 2160p _ it's liquid cooled after all and the cabinet is big enough to hold the extra circuit boards.

And this has nothing to do with Motionflow, but why do we need 2160p 4:2:0 8bit at 60fps, since theses projectors are pretty much aimed at playing UHD Blu-rays that have a frame rate not more the 23.976fps ?

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post #43 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 03:49 PM
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Agree about motionflow processing @4K as for why do we need 60Hz at 4:2:0 8 bit? Gaming, as simple as that.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #44 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 03:50 PM
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Still the new JVC is not in the same price range as the 550: it's pretty much 3x more expensive! The JVC is definitely out of my league.


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Yes which is why I was hoping the 550 could have been a nice middle ground.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #45 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 04:44 PM
 
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The new JVC is more in line with where the 1200ES should be. Hopefully next year we'll see Sony make that projector!
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post #46 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Agree about motionflow processing @4K as for why do we need 60Hz at 4:2:0 8 bit? Gaming, as simple as that.
The funny thing is that "what is so new about 60Hz at 4:2:0 8bit" ?
My NVIDIA is set to that on my now old 300es _ at 12 bit as matter of fact...
It gives 60 and 59.94 Hz available at that colour space in the NVIDIA control panel at 2160p _ has to be set there so the computer based FI will work.

Or I think the 550 does 4:2:0 at 10 bit...

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post #47 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 05:20 PM
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The funny is that "what is so new about 60Hz at 4:2:0 8bit" ?
My NVIDIA is set to that on my now old 300es _ at 12 bit as matter of fact...
It gives 60 and 59.94 Hz available at that colour space in the NVIDIA control panel at 2160p _ has to be set there so the computer based FI will work.

Or I think the 550 does 4:2:0 at 10 bit...
I simply answered your question of why its there.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #48 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffR1 View Post
why do we need 2160p 4:2:0 8bit at 60fps, since theses projectors are pretty much aimed at playing UHD Blu-rays that have a frame rate not more the 23.976fps ?
If you do outboard frame interpolation, like you mentioned.

Heck even if you just want to do your chroma subsampling outboard (like with madshi's filters on your HTPC) and still feed your projector the 23.976 at 2160p 10bit 4:4:4 you need greater than 10.2Gbps.

We will have to wait and see what the full set of supported input modes are but just from what I see advertised on the spec sheet, if that's the max it can do, while good enough for unprocessed 4k UHD BluRay, it is highly disappointing that it doesn't have the bandwidth to feed its own panels 2160p full RGB (4:4:4). Basically your HTPC plugged in will look "crappy" on the desktop, any text with color, etc at 2160p 4:2:0. But it sounds like you know exactly what I mean as you have a HTPC plugged into your 300 using 4:2:0 currently.

On that point, I don't see your 300 being able to accept 2160p 12bit at 60hz. Not sure what's going on there as that exceeds 10.2Gbps HDMI.
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post #49 of 160 Old 09-02-2016, 08:34 PM
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If you do outboard frame interpolation, like you mentioned.

Heck even if you just want to do your chroma subsampling outboard (like with madshi's filters on your HTPC) and still feed your projector the 23.976 at 2160p 10bit 4:4:4 you need greater than 10.2Gbps.

We will have to wait and see what the full set of supported input modes are but just from what I see advertised on the spec sheet, if that's the max it can do, while good enough for unprocessed 4k UHD BluRay, it is highly disappointing that it doesn't have the bandwidth to feed its own panels 2160p full RGB (4:4:4). Basically your HTPC plugged in will look "crappy" on the desktop, any text with color, etc at 2160p 4:2:0. But it sounds like you know exactly what I mean as you have a HTPC plugged into your 300 using 4:2:0 currently.

On that point, I don't see your 300 being able to accept 2160p 12bit at 60hz. Not sure what's going on there as that exceeds 10.2Gbps HDMI.
Here's what the NVIDIA control panel shows _ just finished watching a movie.
If I choose 8 bit, I have more colour banding, there is still some at 12bit, but I have Madvr/MPC-HC set up to take of it.
It depends on the source, some movies have colour banding that can't be hidden, eg. Disney's Monkey Kingdom _ I can reduce the worst parts, but it's still visible here and there.
Note that it is the same at 60 Hz. I've chosen 59 (59.94) because the FI algorithm works better at that odd refresh rate.

I've been told that the control panel reports 12 bit because there is some sort of hand-shaking issue going on by Seegs and while that may be true, there is no denying that I have less colour banding going on at 12 bit, so something positive must be happening.


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post #50 of 160 Old 09-03-2016, 12:28 AM
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Here's what the NVIDIA control panel shows _ just finished watching a movie.

If I choose 8 bit, I have more colour banding, there is still some at 12bit, but I have Madvr/MPC-HC set up to take of it.

It depends on the source, some movies have colour banding that can't be hidden, eg. Disney's Monkey Kingdom _ I can reduce the worst parts, but it's still visible here and there.

Note that it is the same at 60 Hz. I've chosen 59 (59.94) because the FI algorithm works better at that odd refresh rate.



I've been told that the control panel reports 12 bit because there is some sort of hand-shaking issue going on by Seegs and while that may be true, there is no denying that I have less colour banding going on at 12 bit, so something positive must be happening.





Interesting. I cannot recall why but I had to set the frequency to 30 Hz myself. That was the result of all my tests with madVR. I will check again.


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post #51 of 160 Old 09-03-2016, 04:27 AM
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Sony did improve their software for the VPL-VW550 by adding some control over HDR image (HDR contrast and HDR enhancer function). They also improve the Realty Creation algorithm.

Those are small changes but the good news is the new software will also be available for the 320 and 520.






Source : http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/...deoprojection/
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post #52 of 160 Old 09-03-2016, 04:45 AM
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Very nice!


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thats great so really current x20 owners don't need to upgrade to the 550 we will get the new software for free?

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #54 of 160 Old 09-03-2016, 05:23 AM
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thats great so really current x20 owners don't need to upgrade to the 550 we will get the new software for free?
Yes. Very happy Sony at least continue to support my 665.

I am wondering if there will be some hot deal on the discontinued Sony 520. Could be a good time to buy for people who are looking to upgrade to native 4k at a lower cost...

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post #55 of 160 Old 09-04-2016, 01:44 AM
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Yes. Very happy Sony at least continue to support my 665.

I am wondering if there will be some hot deal on the discontinued Sony 520. Could be a good time to buy for people who are looking to upgrade to native 4k at a lower cost...
I am wondering the same in case the new laser J turns out to be too much for the wallet.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #56 of 160 Old 09-06-2016, 06:33 AM
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Sony did improve their software for the VPL-VW550 by adding some control over HDR image (HDR contrast and HDR enhancer function). They also improve the Realty Creation algorithm.

Those are small changes but the good news is the new software will also be available for the 320 and 520.
This is only half true

The software update with the new "HDR contrast" control will also include HLG support and will indeed come to 520 and 320. Several "eye witnesses" at IFA have said that "HDR contrast" works really, really well and will make the Sony projectors have the best (and most "out of the box") HDR implementation yet.

Reality Creation has also been upgraded, but this is a hardware-based feature that the 520/320 will not get.

Also it is definitely confirmed that both HDMI inputs on the 550 are full 18 Gbps inputs.

Asked for a 4K FI, the Sony representatives said they're working on it, but for this generation of projectors it just wasn't possible b/o the hardware requirements.

Ekki (from Cine4Home) who did the presentation also showed the 550 in a mini shootout with the JVC X5000 (RS400). With UHD material, the Sony was significantly sharper and HDR looked better as well.

Interestingly, Ekki was also able to show how JVC "cheats" its way around the 4K FI problem. As we know, with UHD material the current JVCs do have a working FI; we didnt't know that they only use half the pixels of the original picture This was demonstrated with three 4K fotos: 1. Woman, 2. Forrest, 3. Hybrid: 1st pixel from Woman, 2nd pixel from Forrest, 3rd pixel from Woman, 4th pixel from Forrest and so on. What did the e-shifting JVC show? 1. Woman, 2. Forrest, 3. Woman The third picture was indeed identical to the first one, proving that the e-shift actually used only every 2nd pixel of the original 4K foto and hence all the "forrest pixels" from the hybrid foto were just gone!
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post #57 of 160 Old 09-06-2016, 07:26 AM
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Thanks for the more complete info, cant wait to see this new firmware on my 665
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post #58 of 160 Old 09-06-2016, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal_Sunshine View Post
This is only half true

The software update with the new "HDR contrast" control will also include HLG support and will indeed come to 520 and 320. Several "eye witnesses" at IFA have said that "HDR contrast" works really, really well and will make the Sony projectors have the best (and most "out of the box") HDR implementation yet.

Reality Creation has also been upgraded, but this is a hardware-based feature that the 520/320 will not get.

Also it is definitely confirmed that both HDMI inputs on the 550 are full 18 Gbps inputs.

Asked for a 4K FI, the Sony representatives said they're working on it, but for this generation of projectors it just wasn't possible b/o the hardware requirements.

Ekki (from Cine4Home) who did the presentation also showed the 550 in a mini shootout with the JVC X5000 (RS400). With UHD material, the Sony was significantly sharper and HDR looked better as well.

Interestingly, Ekki was also able to show how JVC "cheats" its way around the 4K FI problem. As we know, with UHD material the current JVCs do have a working FI; we didnt't know that they only use half the pixels of the original picture This was demonstrated with three 4K fotos: 1. Woman, 2. Forrest, 3. Hybrid: 1st pixel from Woman, 2nd pixel from Forrest, 3rd pixel from Woman, 4th pixel from Forrest and so on. What did the e-shifting JVC show? 1. Woman, 2. Forrest, 3. Woman The third picture was indeed identical to the first one, proving that the e-shift actually used only every 2nd pixel of the original 4K foto and hence all the "forrest pixels" from the hybrid foto were just gone!
I wonder why the RS400 was put up against the VW550? Nobody shopping for a VW550 would be looking at an RS400. The MSRP of the VW550 is nearly four times the MSRP of the RS400.
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post #59 of 160 Old 09-06-2016, 11:17 AM
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Well it was a Sony event, so for obvious reasons the demo didn't focus on on/off contrast but on sharpness/resolution and HDR. For these areas it wouldn't make a lot of difference if they'd have taken an RS500 or RS600 instead of the RS400, would it?

Also in Germany, the UVP of the 550 is just a little more than twice that of the RS400, not 4x.
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post #60 of 160 Old 09-07-2016, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal_Sunshine View Post

Also in Germany, the UVP of the 550 is just a little more than twice that of the RS400, not 4x.
In all of Europe, I believe, and since IFA is here it makes a lot of sense.

I have stated many times in these threads that the price gap difference is huge and absolutely makes the choice entirely different. If you are going for the cheapest JVC you pay 49.990 in Swedish Krona back here. If you pay twice, ie. 99.990, you get full 4k. It just twice as much. Does strange things to your brain...

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