SIM2 Nero 4 UHD DLP Projector at CEDIA 2016 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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SIM2 Nero 4 UHD DLP Projector at CEDIA 2016

Most companies keep their CEDIA announcements under tight wraps until the show starts, but Italian projector maker SIM2 has decided to let its cat out of the bag a bit early. The company is announcing the Nero 4, a 4K/UHD, single-chip DLP projector based on the DMD (Digital Micromirror Device) chip introduced that Texas Instruments introduced at last year's CEDIA Expo.



As you may recall, the new DMD has 4.15 million micromirrors that are arranged in a 16:9 aspect ratio, which means a pixel array of about 2716x1527. (TI did not provide exact numbers, but the math doesn't lie.) That's not true UHD, but because the switching speed of those micromirrors is measured in microseconds—as opposed to milliseconds for LCD and LCoS—each one can reproduce two completely independent pixels by quickly shifting back and forth by half a pixel diagonally.

If this seems familiar, it is—anyone remember wobulation? That was a similar technique used by Hewlett-Packard in its rear-projection DLP TVs to achieve 1080p resolution when the DMD chips couldn't. More recently, JVC and Epson have applied a similar approach—JVC calls it eShift, while Epson calls it 4K Enhancement—to allow 1080p imaging chips to simulate 4K/UHD.

But these techniques don't actually reach 4K/UHD resolution. They double the number of effective pixels from 2 million to 4 million, though JVC and Epson argue that the visible difference between their images and true 4K/UHD is inconsequential. By contrast, the new DMD doubles its native pixel count of 4 million to 8 million, more closely matching the 4K/UHD spec.

SIM2 also touts the quality of its all-glass lens, which is critical for achieving true 4K/UHD resolution on the screen. For example, the lens exhibits a resolution of 93 line pairs/millimeter, which corresponds to the actual size of the micromirrors—each micromirror measures 5.4 microns, so each pair of alternating lines spans 10.8 microns. This is equivalent to 93 line pairs per millimeter, so the image on the screen includes all the available resolution from the DMD. Also, the optical system is telecentric, which allows a wider range of horizontal and vertical lens shift than lesser systems.

Dealers will be able to place orders for the Nero 4 starting September 15, and delivery is expected during November. No pricing was included in the press release, but I'm sure it won't be inexpensive. I certainly plan to check it out at CEDIA, so stay tuned for more.

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post #2 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 11:57 AM
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It seems like the missing price is sort of the most important detail.

BTW, is it LED, laser, or lamp based? Brightness? Contrast ratio? HDR support?

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post #3 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:00 PM
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It seems like the missing price is sort of the most important detail.
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post #4 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:01 PM
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If you have to ask.... You can't afford it...

Yeah, well... With no stated brightness or information about the light source or features, it's worth exactly $0.
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post #5 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:06 PM
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There's some info out there on this

RGBRGB color wheel
465watt lamp, claimed 4000 lumens
30K EURO

Things we need to know:

calibrated brightness
HDR support + full P3
3D capabilities? not mentioned
Native Contrast - same average DLP performance 3-4K native or at least in the Lumis territory. For this price it better be.
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post #6 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:18 PM
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There is another thread on this projector with more information.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post44593961
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post #7 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:26 PM
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they are going to have a heck of time selling this in the US when the JVC 4K Laser is going to be their direct competitor at this price point.

Imagine seeing RBE on a 30K+ projector..
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post #8 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
There's some info out there on this

RGBRGB color wheel
465watt lamp, claimed 4000 lumens
30K EURO

Things we need to know:

calibrated brightness
HDR support + full P3
3D capabilities? not mentioned
Native Contrast - same average DLP performance 3-4K native or at least in the Lumis territory. For this price it better be.
My Lumis had decent contrast ( 6500:1 native, 15,000:1 with the dynamic iris ). Of course not JVC class, but it looked pretty good 90% of the time. Not sure this projector will match that. We will see in a couple of days.

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post #9 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:51 PM
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I always perk up and listen when SIM2 releases a new PJ. I'm very susceptible to the "rainbow effect" of single-chip DLPs tho so as soon as I read single-chip I lose interest. Curious to hear some testimony tho.

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post #10 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I only post official info from the manufacturer, not rumors or speculation. My post here is based on the recently issued press release (which is admittedly very slim on specifics) and direct communication with the company, along with what I know of the DMD from TI. Of course, I will try to find out more at CEDIA, so stay tuned!
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post #11 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
RGBRGB color wheel
465watt lamp, claimed 4000 lumens
30K EURO
Are they planning to sell any of them?

So it's like they dropped a new DLP chip in a business class projector and swapped the color wheel and 10x'd the price.
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post #12 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I only post official info from the manufacturer, not rumors or speculation. My post here is based on the recently issued press release (which is admittedly very slim on specifics) and direct communication with the company, along with what I know of the DMD from TI. Of course, I will try to find out more at CEDIA, so stay tuned!

Scott, is there a typo error on the date?

see here:

Dealers will be able to place orders for the SIM2 Nero 4 starting September 15, and delivery is expected during November. No pricing was included in the press release, but I’m sure it won’t be inexpensive. I certainly plan to check it out at CEDIA, so stay tuned for more.
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post #13 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desray2k View Post
Scott, is there a typo error on the date?

see here:

Dealers will be able to place orders for the SIM2 Nero 4 starting September 15, and delivery is expected during November. No pricing was included in the press release, but I’m sure it won’t be inexpensive. I certainly plan to check it out at CEDIA, so stay tuned for more.
That's what the press release says.
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post #14 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 06:55 PM
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Still waiting for BenQ's DLP 4k projector line with then new TI chip. Especially interested in a short throw. After having the projector in a reversed TV stand from the '80's, I'm not interested in cutting up the ceiling so that it can hang down from it. This is much nicer, no tilt adjustment at all, 0.


What is the throw of this unit? Are there any 4k short throw projectors in the works other than the Sony?
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post #15 of 61 Old 09-12-2016, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bigins View Post
Still waiting for BenQ's DLP 4k projector line with then new TI chip. Especially interested in a short throw. After having the projector in a reversed TV stand from the '80's, I'm not interested in cutting up the ceiling so that it can hang down from it. This is much nicer, no tilt adjustment at all, 0.


What is the throw of this unit? Are there any 4k short throw projectors in the works other than the Sony?
Could you elaborate your setup? Pictures would be nice too. I am curious..
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post #16 of 61 Old 09-13-2016, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bigins View Post
Still waiting for BenQ's DLP 4k projector line with then new TI chip. Especially interested in a short throw.

If you look for a short throw the Hisense could be an option (yet, I'm afraid that the screen is part of the package) and rumor has it that Optoma will manufacture one, too.


Here is a preview of BenQ's 4K DLP W11000: http://www.hd.club.tw/thread-209643-1-1.html


One thing I couldn't help but notice: On the casing of the BenQ W11000 it highlights "Rec. 709". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709


However, what most of us are actually looking for would be "Rec. 2020". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._2020


It is my impression that 4K DLP might be targeting a segment of the market, that would like to upscale 1080p Blu-rays to "4K" and use UHD BD's for improved picture resolution but is willing to forfeit / less interested in HDR and other aspects that otherwise come along with UHD BD.

Regarding the SIM2 Nero I notice that they, too, just use the consumer level 4K DMD that's supposed to arrive in the front projectors of Acer, BenQ and Optoma. I've read that SIM2 previously utilized DMD's used in DLP Cinema professional applications. If that's correct that would now probably constitute a step back, but it ultimately will depend on the actual performance of this front projector, of course.

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post #17 of 61 Old 09-13-2016, 05:27 AM
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incomplete and/or underwhelming specs...
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post #18 of 61 Old 09-13-2016, 05:41 AM
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Could you elaborate your setup? Pictures would be nice too. I am curious..
I used to do the same with my old Sony VPL-VW40 when I was living in Venezuela. In South America countries you have to get creative because ceiling and walls are build out of solid bricks and concrete.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bigins View Post
Still waiting for BenQ's DLP 4k projector line with then new TI chip. Especially interested in a short throw. After having the projector in a reversed TV stand from the '80's, I'm not interested in cutting up the ceiling so that it can hang down from it. This is much nicer, no tilt adjustment at all, 0.


What is the throw of this unit? Are there any 4k short throw projectors in the works other than the Sony?
Me too given my space, BenQ is the only company that offers throws that work with what I need that doesnt cost 5 digits lol.

Well guess we will find out the rest of the specs at CEDIA, after all they cant let the entire cat out of the bag have to have something to go check out.

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post #20 of 61 Old 09-13-2016, 06:34 PM
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I used to do the same with my old Sony VPL-VW40 when I was living in Venezuela. In South America countries you have to get creative because ceiling and walls are build out of solid bricks and concrete.
That is not what he meant.
He is talking about putting the projector upfront (like an RP TV used to do, but reverse if I am thinking right).
I want to see how that setup is and what it takes to do it.
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post #21 of 61 Old 09-13-2016, 08:25 PM
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Like a Kloss console I'd assume.
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I always perk up and listen when SIM2 releases a new PJ. I'm very susceptible to the "rainbow effect" of single-chip DLPs tho so as soon as I read single-chip I lose interest. Curious to hear some testimony tho.

Rainbow effect was there in full force.

Picture sharpness and clarity was near best of the show. But even after a 10min demo I almost had a "rainbow" induced headache.
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post #23 of 61 Old 09-16-2016, 08:05 AM
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Rainbow effect was there in full force.

Picture sharpness and clarity was near best of the show. But even after a 10min demo I almost had a "rainbow" induced headache.
thanks for the feedback. This should have been a 3 chip for this kind of $$.
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post #24 of 61 Old 09-16-2016, 09:07 AM
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thanks for the feedback. This should have been a 3 chip for this kind of $$.
Or at least RGB lasers/LEDs so RBE wouldn't be an issue.

They are trying to sell something for over 30K that BenQ will sell for a few thousand. Sure it will have a much better lens, but a 25K+ better lens? I don't think so.
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post #25 of 61 Old 09-16-2016, 10:38 AM
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Rainbow effect was there in full force.

Picture sharpness and clarity was near best of the show. But even after a 10min demo I almost had a "rainbow" induced headache.
Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like it has a great optical path but dam the rainbows.

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thanks for the feedback. This should have been a 3 chip for this kind of $$.
Totally.

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I thought the demo looked pretty good. The on/off cr wasn't bad for a dlp. I have to give them credit for playing the space scenes from the Martian. $30k seems like an awful lot of money for a non-4k pj. I know it supposedly has 5k lumens, but well good luck.

I didn't see it on this, but I would be remiss to not mention seeing some image shaking on the Vivtek model. The rep said it was both in the source and the pj. I think it needs more testing to make sure this isn't an issue.

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I thought the demo looked pretty good. The on/off cr wasn't bad for a dlp. I have to give them credit for playing the space scenes from the Martian.
Thanks for that eyee-witness impression. It appears that statements that TI had improved the tilting angles of their micromirrors for the new "4K" DLP DMD to improve contrast were not wildly exaggerated.

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Just sat through this and honestly thought it was one of the most disappointing demos of the show. Frame interpolation was doing some bad things to the image. Artifacts and rainbows as well. I feel like Sim2 dropped the ball bad on this show considering how good they typically look.
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Just sat through this and honestly thought it was one of the most disappointing demos of the show. Frame interpolation was doing some bad things to the image. Artifacts and rainbows as well. I feel like Sim2 dropped the ball bad on this show considering how good they typically look.
Marc saw rainbows but didn't see any. Why many demos were in 60fps ( not just Sim ) is an interesting question. I thought the detail looked excellent, and I've always liked the DLP look, but contrast after owning the RS600 is of course a big let down. I know the scenes shown in The Martian well. Once you've seen what they can look like on a super high contrast projector, it's hard to to go back.

I did really like Sim2's ultra short throw projector shown on a piece of bare sheet rock !!




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