Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
Where do they say anything about unique qualities (the only relevant one I see is 8 million pixels) or anything about sharpness? I didn't see anything that said they have to be sharp to qualify for the 4K UHD logo, only that they have to put out 8 million pixels.

--Darin
If you look at the PDF it says you need to be able to demonstrate that your implementation can represent 3840x2160 with the 8 million pixels.
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post #722 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 04:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
If you look at the PDF it says you need to be able to demonstrate that your implementation can represent 3840x2160 with the 8 million pixels.
You didn't answer his question. Having 8.3 million pixels on screen says nothing about image sharpness as described by MTF.
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post #723 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
You didn't answer his question. Having 8.3 million pixels on screen says nothing about image sharpness as described by MTF.
This is the exact verbiage from the CTA pdf:

"Ultra High-Definition TV

A display system may be referred to as 4K Ultra High-Definition if it meets the following minimum performance attributes:

Display Resolution – Has at least 8 million active pixels, with at least 3840 horizontally and at least 2160 vertically. Physical pixels shall be individually addressable such that the horizontal and vertical resolution above can be demonstrated over the full range of colors provided by the display."

The last sentence is where demonstrated sharpness comes in.
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post #724 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
This is the exact verbiage from the CTA pdf:

"Ultra High-Definition TV

A display system may be referred to as 4K Ultra High-Definition if it meets the following minimum performance attributes:

Display Resolution – Has at least 8 million active pixels, with at least 3840 horizontally and at least 2160 vertically. Physical pixels shall be individually addressable such that the horizontal and vertical resolution above can be demonstrated over the full range of colors provided by the display."

The last sentence is where demonstrated sharpness comes in.
Doesn't look like it requires that much sharpness to me. By that they could have contrast ratios of well under 2:1 in 3840x2160 patterns and still qualify. It doesn't say it can't look blurry down at the pixel level, just that it has to be demonstrated over the full range of colors.

--Darin
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post #725 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
Doesn't look like it requires that much sharpness to me. By that they could have contrast ratios of well under 2:1 in 3840x2160 patterns and still qualify. It doesn't say it can't look blurry down at the pixel level, just that it has to be demonstrated over the full range of colors.

--Darin
It gives enough wiggle room so something like XPR will pass yes. But for instance if you projected 8 million pixels and there was little to no pixel definition it probably wouldn't meet that last criteria.
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post #726 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
But for instance if you projected 8 million pixels and there was little to no pixel definition it probably wouldn't meet that last criteria.
Based on that wording I would say that if there was even a tiny amount of delineation between the pixels a projector would qualify.

If you think there is some line between qualifying and not qualifying that requires some level of quality beyond just being able to make out that resolution, why isn't that in the standard as written?

--Darin
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post #727 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp View Post
Based on that wording I would say that if there was even a tiny amount of delineation between the pixels a projector would qualify.

If you think there is some line between qualifying and not qualifying that requires some level of quality beyond just being able to make out that resolution, why isn't that in the standard as written?

--Darin
I couldn't tell you how strictly CTA applies their criteria, other than native 4k and xpr qualify as 4k uhd as that is public info.
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post #728 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
I couldn't tell you how strictly CTA applies their criteria, other than native 4k and xpr qualify as 4k uhd as that is public info.
I'm guessing that if they pay enough money they would qualify with some very low delineation.

I recall that you said eShift projectors qualified on resolution, but not on the number of pixels, so going back to the original comment, it is likely that the only real unique thing about XPR that allows them to qualify for that usage is that they show 8 million individual pixels.

--Darin
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post #729 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 05:34 PM
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Single chip DLPs traditionally look sharper too - so maybe that might be part of the claim.

That said - wouldn't you need a damn good lens to see the increased resolution. Even a true native 4K panel on the 300/500 series Sony often don't seem much sharper than the FauxK ones.
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post #730 of 1342 Old 07-03-2017, 10:58 PM
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Single chip DLPs traditionally look sharper too - so maybe that might be part of the claim.

That said - wouldn't you need a damn good lens to see the increased resolution. Even a true native 4K panel on the 300/500 series Sony often don't seem much sharper than the FauxK ones.
Depends on the content. Like for windows 4k usage or 4k gaming, jvc/epson eshift really mangle the pixel definition. In this scenario easy to tell difference between jvc/epson eshift and Sony 4k native/dlp xpr.

Movies are less demanding so you can get away with the lower resolution.

I am trying to decide myself what my next purchase will be as the Epson Ls10500 is my #1 contender for new pj since I primarily watch movies and want solid state, but I do also play games - so would need to sacrifice 4k gaming if I went this route.

Other options would be if Sony really slashes the price of its VW675 after Cedia (truly I want laser/led tho) , or if BenQ improves the features and performance of next gen x12500 - but both of those very big ifs.
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post #731 of 1342 Old 07-04-2017, 05:59 AM
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Or wait until the EU ban on high pressure mercury lamps goes into effect late next year and every projector is solid state. Probably have HDMI 2.1 and may have true 4K under 3K then.
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post #732 of 1342 Old 07-04-2017, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Depends on the content. Like for windows 4k usage or 4k gaming, jvc/epson eshift really mangle the pixel definition. In this scenario easy to tell difference between jvc/epson eshift and Sony 4k native/dlp xpr.

Movies are less demanding so you can get away with the lower resolution.

I am trying to decide myself what my next purchase will be as the Epson Ls10500 is my #1 contender for new pj since I primarily watch movies and want solid state, but I do also play games - so would need to sacrifice 4k gaming if I went this route.

Other options would be if Sony really slashes the price of its VW675 after Cedia (truly I want laser/led tho) , or if BenQ improves the features and performance of next gen x12500 - but both of those very big ifs.
I think gaming is great on LS10500 in 4k, if your PC can handle it - some screenshots from my LS10500 and PC version of Tomb Rider (its 1080p no eshift vs 4k):
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/214591
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/214592
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post #733 of 1342 Old 07-04-2017, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtial77 View Post
I think gaming is great on LS10500 in 4k, if your PC can handle it - some screenshots from my LS10500 and PC version of Tomb Rider (its 1080p no eshift vs 4k):

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/214591

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/214592


What's the lag on it? 30ms?


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post #734 of 1342 Old 07-04-2017, 05:34 PM
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What's the lag on it? 30ms?


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I thought you had use Epson at 1080p to get input lag under control.
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post #735 of 1342 Old 07-05-2017, 04:21 AM
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My local Epson dealer has asked to show a demo of the 10500 at my house this weekend. I will most probably be keeping it for a day or two before returning it. Although, I do not intend on buying it(might consider b-stock 10000 if available in my country). They had bought in a 10000 the previous weekend and found severe panel alignment issues resulting in them taking it back and bringing the 10500. I currently use an Epson 5030ub on a 133" diagonal screen research in my living room and plenty satisfied with it except the grain that is being caused due to minimal light control in the room.

My question is, the 10500 will be paired to a Bose receiver and there is no way of using a 4k source but my main concern is I would like to see a big difference in 1080p material from the Epson laser. Can I still go ahead with the demo or am I just wasting my time expecting to be wowed ?
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post #736 of 1342 Old 07-05-2017, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by k3nnis View Post
What's the lag on it? 30ms?


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Sorry, I have no device to measure it. Gaming single player games like Tomb Rider in 4k is definately OK for me. Desktop and mouse movement is all right too. I don't do multiplayer competetive games on PJ though.
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post #737 of 1342 Old 07-05-2017, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by vtial77 View Post
Sorry, I have no device to measure it. Gaming single player games like Tomb Rider in 4k is definately OK for me. Desktop and mouse movement is all right too. I don't do multiplayer competetive games on PJ though.


Ok no problems.


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post #738 of 1342 Old 07-05-2017, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
There will probably be a lot of disappointed Optoma projector owners if that is really the case. The UHD60/65 are inferior in every way to the Epson and JVCs in the same price range. The only area where the Optoma projectors win is in pseudo-4K resolution. The 60/65 are dimmer, lack 3D, have poorer black levels, far worse contrast, fewer lens features, more input lag, and poorer color gamut. JVC and Epson are full featured projectors whereas the Optoma's are stripped down and lack installation flexibility.

While they are closer to True native 4K than the Epson's and JVC's, they still aren't the real deal. I don't see these new DLP projectors competing in the mid to high end market unless they can overcome all the current limitations and provide more full featured projectors.
well said.

As a reply to earlier Ruined's sales stats:

IMHO sales charts are not something quality image fans should base their decisions on.

I would probably be also living in the dark and would be very happy with my FHD DLP Pj or even upgrade it to XPR until I saw same image demo from JVC/Epson. They knocked it down thanks to high native contrast and black levels, excellent HDR making the image look 3dimensional.
I had high expectations from new Optomas (even set my radar on them) sadly they are turning to be disappointment for someone who got used to at least 3 x higher native contrast, better black levels, lens automation, no input lag and good 3d. BY the way these crosstalk stories on Epson to me is a myth, which can be fully eliminated with proper settings (tested). Dust blobs you are referring to - I got a dust blob on my previous DLP out of the box from the factory, so this can happen to any projector...

To be clear there is nothing wrong to start with DLP oor DLP XPR and buyers will be very happy.
Simply if you get used to latest 3LCD/LCoS/SXRD going back to 1 DLP is not much of an improvement, not at this price, not with such missing features. Did I mention build quality ?

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post #739 of 1342 Old 07-16-2017, 10:44 AM
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Sorry but I still do not understand,
to watch the Blu-ray discs in SDR-Rec.709, I have to select EDID 1 or 2 ?

I do not understand,
with the LS10000 in Natural mode medium lamp and iris at -9 I had 52 Nits, now with the LS10500 with iris at -9 i have 41 Nits,
I have to increase up to -5 to get 52 Nits,
what's changed?

Sorry for my bad English
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post #740 of 1342 Old 07-20-2017, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Icaro View Post
Sorry but I still do not understand,
to watch the Blu-ray discs in SDR-Rec.709, I have to select EDID 1 or 2 ?

I do not understand,
with the LS10000 in Natural mode medium lamp and iris at -9 I had 52 Nits, now with the LS10500 with iris at -9 i have 41 Nits,
I have to increase up to -5 to get 52 Nits,
what's changed?
The new PJ simply goes darker with the same DI adjustment allowing for darker blacks.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #741 of 1342 Old 07-21-2017, 12:52 PM
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FauxK

Hi, I thought I would weigh in on the whole 8.3 million pixels UHD standard.

Those arguing that the standard does not guaranty a sharp image are correct. From a practical standpoint, there are, of course multiple factors, including the quality of the lens, design of the lightpath, and more.

But, it primarily comes down to how big each pixel is, relative to the screen. 4K UHD DLP projectors with their 2716x1528 pixel structures (before pixels shifting), have pixels that are basically twice the area in size of a true 4K sized pixel, such as found with any Sony 4K projector. No way a 4K UHD pixel shifter can resolve to adjacent vertical lines, each 1/3840th of the width of the image. Make the first line blue, the second yellow, and you'll get mostly white with some blue fringe on one side, yellow on the other. Wit a true 4K you'll have two fully distinct lines, one blue, one yellow - no white.

Now so far, the only UHD projectors not true 4K are the new DLPs, but there's nothing, in theory, stopping Epson, for example, from devising a way to take the LS10500 (or LS10000) and pixel shift multiple times, hitting the screen 4 times, vs the DLP's 2 times. That would take the Epson from 4.15 megapixels to 8.3 and would make it 4K UHD.

Technically, since the standard does not seem to specify anything but the 8.3 million, one could even take a projector that's only got 720p panels, not even Blu-ray, and use pixel shifting to hit the screen 9x per frame. That too gets you 8.3 million pixels but each pixel would be roughly the size of a baseball compared to a true 4K projector's pixels the size of a golf ball.

Bottom line: Some projectors are sharper than others for various reasons (a quality single chip DLP that's 1080p will normally be sharper than a 3 chip LCD or LCoS since there's no three images to align.

I've found that the 4K UHD's I'm reviewing now, are definitely upon close inspection, sharper than the LS10500 or 5040UB, but the difference is slight, and not likely to be noticed (especially considering all the other processing today's projectors do,
if you are sitting, say 12 feet back from a 100" screen. (I'm assuming we're feeding them 4K content.)

I wrote a FauxK vs 4K article that covers this and more on my site, for those that want a bit more info, but my comments above address much of what's in the article. -art

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post #742 of 1342 Old 07-21-2017, 07:15 PM
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Whats the largest AT screens you guys are getting with the LS10500?

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post #743 of 1342 Old 07-21-2017, 08:02 PM
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Whats the largest AT screens you guys are getting with the LS10500?
Too open a question. There are 1.0 gain woven AT screens and then there is microperf. Stewart will microperf their 2.0 gain material. One would allow a huge difference in size over the other.
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post #744 of 1342 Old 07-21-2017, 08:07 PM
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Too open a question. There are 1.0 gain woven AT screens and then there is microperf. Stewart will microperf their 2.0 gain material. One would allow a huge difference in size over the other.
I mean a woven AT screen which are usually all just under 1.0 gain.
What is the largest screen size one would get with a 10500?

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post #745 of 1342 Old 07-22-2017, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
I mean a woven AT screen which are usually all just under 1.0 gain.
What is the largest screen size one would get with a 10500?
It depends on 3D and HDR. If wanting decent HDR, then 130" wide is about as big as I would go.
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post #746 of 1342 Old 07-22-2017, 05:36 PM
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It depends on 3D and HDR. If wanting decent HDR, then 130" wide is about as big as I would go.
If one doesnt want 3D or HDR would the LS10500 have the lumens to light up a 145" diag screen with a gain of 1.00?
Is the 10500 any brighter than the LS10000?

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post #747 of 1342 Old 07-25-2017, 07:09 AM
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Epson LS10500 with a 150 inch screen

hi all .. will this projector produce a good image on a 150 inch screen (pure white 1.3 2.35:1)?
I was going to get a JVC RS520, then the salesman suggested this epson pj.

thanks
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post #748 of 1342 Old 07-25-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Depends on the content. Like for windows 4k usage or 4k gaming, jvc/epson eshift really mangle the pixel definition. In this scenario easy to tell difference between jvc/epson eshift and Sony 4k native/dlp xpr.

Movies are less demanding so you can get away with the lower resolution.

I am trying to decide myself what my next purchase will be as the Epson Ls10500 is my #1 contender for new pj since I primarily watch movies and want solid state, but I do also play games - so would need to sacrifice 4k gaming if I went this route.

Other options would be if Sony really slashes the price of its VW675 after Cedia (truly I want laser/led tho) , or if BenQ improves the features and performance of next gen x12500 - but both of those very big ifs.
Are you gaming on a console or pc? Do you mean this pj will not work with xbox one X or ps4 pro 4k games??
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post #749 of 1342 Old 07-25-2017, 07:51 AM
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Are you gaming on a console or pc? Do you mean this pj will not work with xbox one X or ps4 pro 4k games??
The LS10500 will work with them but effective resolution is basically 1080p. Not as high resolution as the 4k DLP or Sony options.
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post #750 of 1342 Old 07-25-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
If one doesnt want 3D or HDR would the LS10500 have the lumens to light up a 145" diag screen with a gain of 1.00?
Is the 10500 any brighter than the LS10000?
Yes, depending on throw. if screen is 16:9 and mounted at short end of throw, you would be able to get around 24FL.
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