Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 1269 Old 10-02-2016, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
My wish list for this projector was the following:

1. More calibrated lumens.
2. HDR
3. Full 18Gbps HDMI chip.
4. BT2020 compatibility.

If they had done these things, they would have been flying off the shelf.
More contrast too.
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post #62 of 1269 Old 10-02-2016, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
Odd considering the LCD UHP models get the 18Gbps didnt they?
No, the 5040 is not 18Gbps. It is 10.2Gbps.
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post #63 of 1269 Old 10-02-2016, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LumenChip View Post
...
That is a possibility, but why stick to your guns with a formula that doesn't work. With most reverting to a WCG & SDR soup, this projector with around 2000 calibrated & stable lumens (and a $500 token price reduction) would be a very convincing buy. The LS10000 was Epson's first Laser attempt and reliability/longevity was a concern, but is no longer a concern for this round.
Check out at the 4 min mark of this interview with an Epson rep.
I doesn't sound like the LS line is much of a priority to Epson.
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post #64 of 1269 Old 10-02-2016, 04:29 PM
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Funny I've been thinking just the same, I can get and LS10K for crazy good price I could just use the fury and get SDR WCG.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #65 of 1269 Old 10-02-2016, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
not 18Gbps. It is 10.2Gbs
Wow. That being the case, it's basically the LS10000 with a firmware update.

Which begs the question: who's isn't the LS10000 getting a firmware update.
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post #66 of 1269 Old 10-03-2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Funny I've been thinking just the same, I can get and LS10K for crazy good price I could just use the fury and get SDR WCG.
Or save a bunch of money and just play upscaled 2k blu-rays on it?

Is price of uhd player + fury + uhd discs worth it for wcg only? And further is it worth dropping from 1050 calibrated lumens to 800 calibrated lumens for P3 only? That reduction could prevent use of eco mode.

Seems like a stretch to justify using uhdbd vs. real world gain in doing so.

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post #67 of 1269 Old 10-03-2016, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Or save a bunch of money and just play upscaled 2k blu-rays on it?

Is price of uhd player + fury + uhd discs worth it for wcg only? And further is it worth dropping from 1050 calibrated lumens to 800 calibrated lumens for P3 only? That reduction could prevent use of eco mode.

Seems like a stretch to justify using uhdbd vs. real world gain in doing so.
In that case, why not just get the 9600e? It has the same contrast although a little shy of the light output, but notably cheaper and seems like the better option of the two for someone just interested in BD for a while.

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post #68 of 1269 Old 10-03-2016, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
In that case, why not just get the 9600e? It has the same contrast although a little shy of the light output, but notably cheaper and seems like the better option of the two for someone just interested in BD for a while.
Few reasons:
- Light output is significantly less to the point where 3D and eco mode could be dark or even unusable. Ls10k has just enough for both.
- Still expensive at 5999, but won't hold value as well due to lacking the UHD checkboxes
- Lacks e-shift to eliminate SDE if an issue
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post #69 of 1269 Old 10-03-2016, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Or save a bunch of money and just play upscaled 2k blu-rays on it?

Is price of uhd player + fury + uhd discs worth it for wcg only? And further is it worth dropping from 1050 calibrated lumens to 800 calibrated lumens for P3 only? That reduction could prevent use of eco mode.

Seems like a stretch to justify using uhdbd vs. real world gain in doing so.

IMHO, WCG is the only UHD feature worth pursuing with the LS10000. Even if it supported HDR (like the LS10500 supposedly will), they don't have the lumens to do it justice.


But having said that, no one has come up with a way to accurately display BT2020 on the LS10000 without an expensive 3DLUT box. The LS10000 can display an SDR/ BT2020 image, but its internal EOTF is not correct, and according to Epson, can only be corrected with a hardware change. Another UHD limitation as the LS10000 currently stands is it cannot accept a 4K signal and 10/12 bit color at the same time. Therefore your only two UHD operational modes (even with an expensive 3DLUT box) are 4K/SDR/BT709, or 1080p/SDR/BT2020.


Here's a review by Anna and Flo (@Soulnight) at ProjectionDreams that talks about this a little more in the comments section at the bottom.
http://projectiondream.com/en/epson-...jector-review/


As far as UHD support in the LS10500, I would wait before jumping in until some solid reviews are out. Since their new 6040/5040 PJs are based on new hardware platforms, they probably have a much better chance of working correctly.
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post #70 of 1269 Old 10-03-2016, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
IMHO, WCG is the only UHD feature worth pursuing with the LS10000. Even if it supported HDR (like the LS10500 supposedly will), they don't have the lumens to do it justice.


But having said that, no one has come up with a way to accurately display BT2020 on the LS10000 without an expensive 3DLUT box. The LS10000 can display an SDR/ BT2020 image, but its internal EOTF is not correct, and according to Epson, can only be corrected with a hardware change. Another UHD limitation as the LS10000 currently stands is it cannot accept a 4K signal and 10/12 bit color at the same time. Therefore your only two UHD operational modes (even with an expensive 3DLUT box) are 4K/SDR/BT709, or 1080p/SDR/BT2020.


Here's a review by Anna and Flo (@Soulnight) at ProjectionDreams that talks about this a little more in the comments section at the bottom.
http://projectiondream.com/en/epson-...jector-review/


As far as UHD support in the LS10500, I would wait before jumping in until some solid reviews are out. Since their new 6040/5040 PJs are based on new hardware platforms, they probably have a much better chance of working correctly.
Thanks that rules out the LS10K for me. Let's see what the new one is capable of.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #71 of 1269 Old 10-04-2016, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
IMHO, WCG is the only UHD feature worth pursuing with the LS10000. Even if it supported HDR (like the LS10500 supposedly will), they don't have the lumens to do it justice.


But having said that, no one has come up with a way to accurately display BT2020 on the LS10000 without an expensive 3DLUT box. The LS10000 can display an SDR/ BT2020 image, but its internal EOTF is not correct, and according to Epson, can only be corrected with a hardware change. Another UHD limitation as the LS10000 currently stands is it cannot accept a 4K signal and 10/12 bit color at the same time. Therefore your only two UHD operational modes (even with an expensive 3DLUT box) are 4K/SDR/BT709, or 1080p/SDR/BT2020.


Here's a review by Anna and Flo (@Soulnight) at ProjectionDreams that talks about this a little more in the comments section at the bottom.
http://projectiondream.com/en/epson-...jector-review/


As far as UHD support in the LS10500, I would wait before jumping in until some solid reviews are out. Since their new 6040/5040 PJs are based on new hardware platforms, they probably have a much better chance of working correctly.

Pure speculation on my part, but it seems to me Epson focused on the 5040/6040. Maybe next year the LS10000/10500 will get a real upgrade especially with JVC presumably refreshing their RS line at that point.
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post #72 of 1269 Old 10-05-2016, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Another UHD limitation as the LS10000 currently stands is it cannot accept a 4K signal and 10/12 bit color at the same time. Therefore your only two UHD operational modes (even with an expensive 3DLUT box) are 4K/SDR/BT709, or 1080p/SDR/BT2020.
Where is the reference that the LS10000 cannot accept a 4K/24Hz/10-bit signal with filter engaged for P3 (with signal corrected with e.g. a Lumagen or hacked with a HDfury Linker)?
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post #73 of 1269 Old 10-05-2016, 12:56 PM
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Where is the reference that the LS10000 cannot accept a 4K/24Hz/10-bit signal with filter engaged for P3 (with signal corrected with e.g. a Lumagen or hacked with a HDfury Linker)?
I've had an incident ticket open with Epson for several months concerning this issue. There have been many back and forths as they research what they can/will do, and as I have asked new questions as I learn more details. Here is a direct quote from one of their more recent responses I received in mid-June. I assume SEC is their engineering department.
When the 4K signal is inputting to the LS10000, the projection image will be displayed as 8 bits color image regardless the bit number of the input signal.
Because the LS10000 will downscale the wide color gamut signal to 8 bits image.
Even if the UHD BD player can send the SDR+BT2020 or 10 bits image signal to the LS10000 by using the HDFury, the actual projection image from LS10000 is 8 bits image.
We guess the color bit depth of info menu is displayed as “---”, even in above method.

And SEC cannot guarantee the image quality which is realized by this method since the input signal is not supported in the first place.
In SEC’s basic opinion, SEC does not intend to update the firmware of the LS10000 to support the wide color gamut signal.
So it appears they can accept a 10/12 bit signal with 4K/BT2020, but it will be truncated to 8 bits before it reaches the display.

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post #74 of 1269 Old 11-11-2016, 01:09 PM
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So I've read through this some and tried looking around a bit, but I'm struggling to find a good answer. Has anyone seen the LS10000 and the 6040 side by side for a comparison? I've got both of them available to me in roughly the same price range (the LS10000 is a display model) and I'm wondering which would truly be best for me. I'm upgrading my 3010, if that makes any difference.
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post #75 of 1269 Old 11-11-2016, 03:17 PM
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So I've read through this some and tried looking around a bit, but I'm struggling to find a good answer. Has anyone seen the LS10000 and the 6040 side by side for a comparison? I've got both of them available to me in roughly the same price range (the LS10000 is a display model) and I'm wondering which would truly be best for me. I'm upgrading my 3010, if that makes any difference.
I was in the same dilemma and yes have seen them multiple times, the 6040 cannot hold a candle IMO so it was no brainer for me to go with the LS10K and never looked back.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #76 of 1269 Old 11-11-2016, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
I've had an incident ticket open with Epson for several months concerning this issue. There have been many back and forths as they research what they can/will do, and as I have asked new questions as I learn more details. Here is a direct quote from one of their more recent responses I received in mid-June. I assume SEC is their engineering department.
When the 4K signal is inputting to the LS10000, the projection image will be displayed as 8 bits color image regardless the bit number of the input signal.
Because the LS10000 will downscale the wide color gamut signal to 8 bits image.
Even if the UHD BD player can send the SDR+BT2020 or 10 bits image signal to the LS10000 by using the HDFury, the actual projection image from LS10000 is 8 bits image.
We guess the color bit depth of info menu is displayed as “---”, even in above method.

And SEC cannot guarantee the image quality which is realized by this method since the input signal is not supported in the first place.
In SEC’s basic opinion, SEC does not intend to update the firmware of the LS10000 to support the wide color gamut signal.
So it appears they can accept a 10/12 bit signal with 4K/BT2020, but it will be truncated to 8 bits before it reaches the display.
I came across this when someone was explaining how an older JVC PJ was actually displaying correct WCG with the Fury I was scratching my head at first but then I realized it must be the same trickery with the LS, so the fury compresses the signal to 8bit then the projector displays it in 10bit as it processes in 10bit internally and I have to say the end result is just the same as I've seen on my ex Sony 4K except the colors a deeper. So whatever the actual process is, using the Fury results in the same end result as JVC or Sony and actually better as the LS can display a wider gamut, I've verified this via different color meters and software. This has also been verified in the UK it's on an official site.

With those replies I think Epson are just playing safe.

Here is the official specs:

http://www.epson.com.au/products/pro...0000_Specs.asp

It says: "Colour Processing 10 bit (Partial 12bit)" Its processing internally.

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I was in the same dilemma and yes have seen them multiple times, the 6040 cannot hold a candle IMO so it was no brainer for me to go with the LS10K and never looked back.
Thanks for the help there! I'm really looking forward to this one, but I wanted to make sure this decision made sense.
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post #78 of 1269 Old 11-11-2016, 07:45 PM
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Thanks for the help there! I'm really looking forward to this one, but I wanted to make sure this decision made sense.
If you can get a 10K for the same price as a 6040 it's a real bargain.
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post #79 of 1269 Old 11-12-2016, 07:33 AM
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If you can get a 10K for the same price as a 6040 it's a real bargain.
Did you ever get a response from Epson on what updates are in your v1.31 FW? Have you noticed anything different?
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post #80 of 1269 Old 11-12-2016, 05:38 PM
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Did you ever get a response from Epson on what updates are in your v1.31 FW? Have you noticed anything different?
Not yet, I was about to follow up on this next Monday, I really want to know! I did notice a brighter image yes and seemingly more accurate WCG after calibration but this could be a placebo effect after having the loan unit for two weeks just not sure but I think it is brighter and more accurate. Let me do some testing to see if it is brighter if I can dig up the measurements of the old unit. Just for a test I was thinking we all complain that projectors don't enough brightness for HDR but I thought what if we shrunk the image to the size of a 65" TV so I did that and the peak brightness went from 120" 27ftL to 65" 48ftL

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Not yet, I was about to follow up on this next Monday, I really want to know! I did notice a brighter image yes and seemingly more accurate WCG after calibration but this could be a placebo effect after having the loan unit for two weeks just not sure but I think it is brighter and more accurate. Let me do some testing to see if it is brighter if I can dig up the measurements of the old unit. Just for a test I was thinking we all complain that projectors don't enough brightness for HDR but I thought what if we shrunk the image to the size of a 65" TV so I did that and the peak brightness went from 120" 27ftL to 65" 48ftL
Get a 1.3 gain screen... 30% more brightness for free... I really like my screen from OZ Theatre Screens.
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post #82 of 1269 Old 11-12-2016, 07:49 PM
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Get a 1.3 gain screen... 30% more brightness for free... I really like my screen from OZ Theatre Screens.
I have no problems with mine 1.1.

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I have no problems with mine 1.1.
Not saying you do, just sayin you can get more brightness that way and keep the screen size big

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post #84 of 1269 Old 11-13-2016, 02:09 AM
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Not saying you do, just sayin you can get more brightness that way and keep the screen size big
I get you Only did it as an experiment that's all, if I needed to run HDR that may be the way to go.
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I get you Only did it as an experiment that's all, if I needed to run HDR that may be the way to go.


Oh course though with added gain comes increased black floor level...
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post #86 of 1269 Old 11-13-2016, 02:14 AM
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Oh course though with added gain comes increased black floor level...
I am quite pleased as is for now.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #87 of 1269 Old 11-13-2016, 03:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Get a 1.3 gain screen... 30% more brightness for free... I really like my screen from OZ Theatre Screens.
30% more brightness, but a lot of artifacts in most cases even the Studiotek 130 has artifacts like sparkle.
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post #88 of 1269 Old 11-13-2016, 03:24 AM
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Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector

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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
30% more brightness, but a lot of artifacts in most cases even the Studiotek 130 has artifacts like sparkle.


My screen has no sparkle. So, not all cases

None that I can see anyway. Sitting 1.1 screen width from 120 inch diag screen. 2700 hours worth of watching... perfect image.
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JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
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MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
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post #89 of 1269 Old 11-13-2016, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
I am quite pleased as is for now.
Thanks again for your input, Bandyka! I'm really looking forward to this projector, but I'm so impatient to get it. They'd already agreed to loan out the display unit on a new build until the customer can get their LS10500, so I have to wait for that to ship before I can get my LS10000. Oh, the waiting! How will I survive it???
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post #90 of 1269 Old 11-13-2016, 10:56 AM
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If only Epson will surprise us with 1500 Calibrated lumens. The JVC updates are a long way out and some of us are projectorless while we wait. A brighter Epson can steal some sales.
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