Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 1378 Old 09-18-2017, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
You can do custom gamma curves on the Epson 10/10500 Lasers too.
True, but you're limited to the GUI and what you can do with the sliders, as I understand it the JVC is a little more versatile with the curves you can upload, plus it seems you can program in various values which seems like a good way to do it for HDR.
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post #872 of 1378 Old 09-18-2017, 09:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
True, but you're limited to the GUI and what you can do with the sliders, as I understand it the JVC is a little more versatile with the curves you can upload, plus it seems you can program in various values which seems like a good way to do it for HDR.

Exactly, but it's still custom.
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post #873 of 1378 Old 09-18-2017, 03:11 PM
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Hey Guys,

I have an LS10500 and have been enjoying for a couple months now. I have basically given up on HDR, I have tried a wide array of settings but I feel like the black crush, especially on roku content makes it not worth the tradeoff.

What I am trying to figure out is, does disable HDR in the projector and on the Oppo 203, compromise the color quality of a 4k Bluray compared to a normal bluray. I watched Mad Max Fury Road in eshifted 4k, and while the resolution looked great (I really didn't find myself missing the extra pixels I would have had from native) It felt a little "duller" than the blu rays I've watched. It's somewhat hard to tell but I found this thread, and I'm not sure if this is still or ever was an issue.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1258944

One more thing, are there any meaningful firmware upgrades? My PJ is still out of the box on that front, I wasn't sure if I am missing any key features or improvements.
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post #874 of 1378 Old 09-18-2017, 03:41 PM
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Have you tried tweaking the gamma and the brightness control for HDR?

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post #875 of 1378 Old 09-18-2017, 03:49 PM
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Have you tried tweaking the gamma and the brightness control for HDR?
Yea I have, and I don't know if its an idiosyncrasy with Roku, but I feel like the ideal settings for the Amazon app vs the Netflix app vary wildly not to mention compared to Blu-Ray which seems like it fares the best in HDR on this projector. I noticed expanding the color settings helped on the Roku, honestly, I'm a little frustrated because it seems like when I use the memory settings not all of the settings change (HDMI color settings and Gama), but perhaps I should give it another go. My solution was just to scrap HDR altogether and enjoy the non HDR picture, but I am worried the color/contrast I'm seeing on 4k Blurays with HDR disabled is worse than 1080p Blurays.
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post #876 of 1378 Old 09-19-2017, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Halbrium View Post
Yea I have, and I don't know if its an idiosyncrasy with Roku, but I feel like the ideal settings for the Amazon app vs the Netflix app vary wildly not to mention compared to Blu-Ray which seems like it fares the best in HDR on this projector. I noticed expanding the color settings helped on the Roku, honestly, I'm a little frustrated because it seems like when I use the memory settings not all of the settings change (HDMI color settings and Gama), but perhaps I should give it another go. My solution was just to scrap HDR altogether and enjoy the non HDR picture, but I am worried the color/contrast I'm seeing on 4k Blurays with HDR disabled is worse than 1080p Blurays.
Have you checked on what the Roku is actually sending the projector (via the Epson info screen) when watching HDR10 content from Amazon or Netflix? I didn't know the Roku even supported 24p 4K HDR and required a display with 60p 4K HDR.
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post #877 of 1378 Old 09-19-2017, 05:39 PM
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Was close to getting an LS10000, but that suddenly morphed into an LS10500. Since I won't need HDR->SDR conversion, is the Pano UB900 is still the best player for the LS10500 or would it be better to get the 203 that could convert DV (can it do that?)?
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post #878 of 1378 Old 09-19-2017, 05:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurylian View Post
Was close to getting an LS10000, but that suddenly morphed into an LS10500. Since I won't need HDR->SDR conversion, is the Pano UB900 is still the best player for the LS10500 or would it be better to get the 203 that could convert DV (can it do that?)?
Raw image quality is better on the UB900. Chroma resolution tests done between the two players objectively show this. While the UB900 doesn't support Dolby Vision, that is something that isn't suspected to be supported in projectors for several years anyways. The UB900 also supports Amazon and Netflix 4K with HDR, the 203 does not. The upscaling inside the UB900 is class leading as well which is excellent for any 1080p Blurays you have. And if for whatever reason you don't like HDR, the UB900 is head over heels better at HDR to SDR conversion. It's hard for me to recommend the OPPO 203 knowing that DV isn't something important for projector owners.

Edit:

Here's a good video showing off the differences:


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post #879 of 1378 Old 09-19-2017, 06:27 PM
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I have a side deal for a 100" Screen Innovation Black Diamond 7 1.4. Good price, but likely the first iteration of the black diamond. Any reason to consider something else? My room has some ambient light but windows have blinds and blackout curtains take out >90% of the light.
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post #880 of 1378 Old 09-20-2017, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurylian View Post
Was close to getting an LS10000, but that suddenly morphed into an LS10500. Since I won't need HDR->SDR conversion, is the Pano UB900 is still the best player for the LS10500 or would it be better to get the 203 that could convert DV (can it do that?)?
Exactly as Seegs said.

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post #881 of 1378 Old 09-22-2017, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurylian View Post
I have a side deal for a 100" Screen Innovation Black Diamond 7 1.4. Good price, but likely the first iteration of the black diamond. Any reason to consider something else? My room has some ambient light but windows have blinds and blackout curtains take out >90% of the light.
With the Black Diamond 1.4 you will get hot spots/sparklies, if you don't need the Black Diamond for the excellent ambient light rejection you may want to go for something else....depending on how good your "side deal" is

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post #882 of 1378 Old 09-22-2017, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post
With the Black Diamond 1.4 you will get hot spots/sparklies, if you don't need the Black Diamond for the excellent ambient light rejection you may want to go for something else....depending on how good your "side deal" is
I'm getting it for about 1/3 original price. I think I'm going to give it a try and change if I don't like it. While I can make the room very dark for movies, if the wife is working on a craft she likes all lights on, which is often. Under those circumstances I think it will work well.

What would be really interesting is to see if I can pick up a 2.35:1 white screen that can drop down in front of it for times when the lights are off. That would be sweet.
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post #883 of 1378 Old 10-05-2017, 12:31 PM
 
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Wow, wow, wow......I think I just totally nailed the HarperVision settings last night (Finally!) on the LS10500! I was totally blown away watching The Revenant with it!

I just need to tweak the CMS and greyscale and maybe gamma a touch to be best for all UHD HDR disc's nit levels. Stay tuned for the digits and info, hopefully tonight!
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post #884 of 1378 Old 10-05-2017, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Wow, wow, wow......I think I just totally nailed the HarperVision settings last night (Finally!) on the LS10500! I was totally blown away watching The Revenant with it!

I just need to tweak the CMS and greyscale and maybe gamma a touch to be best for all UHD HDR disc's nit levels. Stay tuned for the digits and info, hopefully tonight!
Wow! Exciting news - will these work for LS10K with a HDFury as well, you think?
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post #885 of 1378 Old 10-05-2017, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Wow, wow, wow......I think I just totally nailed the HarperVision settings last night (Finally!) on the LS10500! I was totally blown away watching The Revenant with it!

I just need to tweak the CMS and greyscale and maybe gamma a touch to be best for all UHD HDR disc's nit levels. Stay tuned for the digits and info, hopefully tonight!
Well, you got my attention! I've had the LS10500 for a few weeks and it's due to be calibrated in 2 weeks. Anxiously await your follow-up!
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post #886 of 1378 Old 10-05-2017, 01:48 PM
 
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Wow! Exciting news - will these work for LS10K with a HDFury as well, you think?
No sorry, It won't work with the LS10000. Due to the added HDR compatibility of the LS10500, it has changed totally how their input signals are processed. I tried the LS10000 HV settings on the LS10500 and they didn't work at all. These settings are more like the Epson 5040/6040, which also supports HDR natively. I read about a certain "tweak" that can be done to enhance the contrast ratio and dynamic range of projectors, so I have included that into my HV settings. I should probably revisit the 5040 with this too. I do have HV settings posted for the LS10000 unit though, below my signature.

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Well, you got my attention! I've had the LS10500 for a few weeks and it's due to be calibrated in 2 weeks. Anxiously await your follow-up!
OK, but this will probably scare your calibrator off, especially those that can't think outside their scientific box, into the realm of artistry, haha!
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post #887 of 1378 Old 10-05-2017, 08:52 PM
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Wow, wow, wow......I think I just totally nailed the HarperVision settings last night (Finally!) on the LS10500! I was totally blown away watching The Revenant with it!
I love avs. You guys are awesome. Thanks for your passion to achieve excellence.
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post #888 of 1378 Old 10-14-2017, 02:06 PM
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Where do they say anything about unique qualities (the only relevant one I see is 8 million pixels) or anything about sharpness? I didn't see anything that said they have to be sharp to qualify for the 4K UHD logo, only that they have to put out 8 million pixels.

--Darin
Although I believe the LS10K/10.5K has an overall better image quality than the UHD65, but the A/B comparison video below shows that the UHD65 does have a better sharpness and more detail when feeding in 4K UHD content.


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post #889 of 1378 Old 10-16-2017, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Wow, wow, wow......I think I just totally nailed the HarperVision settings last night (Finally!) on the LS10500! I was totally blown away watching The Revenant with it!

I just need to tweak the CMS and greyscale and maybe gamma a touch to be best for all UHD HDR disc's nit levels. Stay tuned for the digits and info, hopefully tonight!
Hi Dave. Did I miss the post where you released these settings? Looking forward to trying them out.
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post #890 of 1378 Old 10-16-2017, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tushizuo View Post
Although I believe the LS10K/10.5K has an overall better image quality than the UHD65, but the A/B comparison video below shows that the UHD65 does have a better sharpness and more detail when feeding in 4K UHD content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPXug721ZY&t=299s
Without fully calibrating both projectors for this side-by-side it is hard to judge the validity of some of the observations such as the lack of star field on the LS10.5k
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post #891 of 1378 Old 10-16-2017, 12:44 PM
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Without fully calibrating both projectors for this side-by-side it is hard to judge the validity of some of the observations such as the lack of star field on the LS10.5k
I find their reviews brutally biased. The colors on the UHD65 were so far off from the LS10.5k it's not even funny. The yellows and greens were muted with a blue push. Unreal.

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post #892 of 1378 Old 10-17-2017, 01:07 AM
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good morning.
  I could see the 2 projectors calibrated, in a dedicated room totally black.
What you can see in this video is a big lie.
The Epson ls10500 has much better black and much better hdr effect.
The Optoma is a projector, to compare with the Epson 9300.
The ls10500 in my opinion and from what I've seen, is much better than the Optoma, play in another league.

I do not know the reason for that video, but what counts is not reality.
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post #893 of 1378 Old 10-17-2017, 03:51 AM
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That comparison video is ridiculous. The blacks are so underexposed, it completely hides how crappy the DLP blacks really are. You can see the degree of under-exposure from the apparent black crush of the Epson on the star field. In reality, if they adjusted camera exposure to show the star field on the Epson, the DLP would be a glowing gray disaster. This is true of all videos and photos of displays posted online. It's impossible to capture blacks and highlights accurately as they actually appear.
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post #894 of 1378 Old 11-20-2017, 06:48 AM
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Can someone help me understand something regarding HDR, Bandwidth and banding.

I understand that this projector (which I own) does not support 4K/60 10 Bit due to a bandwidth limitation. This is further highlighted when I connect an XBox One X which reports that I can play games at 4K but cannot use HDR.

If I connect the XBox one X through the HDMI in of my Oppo 203 or use an HDFury Linker the XBox then believes that my display does support 4k/60 HDR and sends and HDR signal to my projector. The projector INFO screen reports an 8 Bit BT2020 HDR signal and I can see an appreciable difference in the picture.

From here I am a bit fuzzy on what is going on. As someone pointed out since the HDR signal is 8 Bit I might see some banding and in certain parts of games while looking at the sun for example I clearly see this banding.

Questions I have are:

1. Where is the signal getting converted to 8 Bit? In the XBox or the projector? I assumed the projector but Epson tells me it will not support an HDR signal in 8 Bit.

2. From what I understand about HDR it provides black levels below standard SDR black and White levels above SDR. What exactly is happening with those levels when converted to 8 Bit in my case. Converted? Clipped?

3. I would like to think 90% of the gameplay looks better except when I encounter the banding but am I just imagining this? Am I getting any enhancements in the color range or is the conversion doing more damage than good?

4. What causes the banding specifically? Does it take like 10 values and convert it to say 5?

Thanks in advance for any inputs.
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post #895 of 1378 Old 11-21-2017, 11:09 PM
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Long term stability

I'm interested to understand more about the long term stability of this projector (and also LS10000 I guess). I'm very seriously considering LS10500 for my forthcoming build.

I've seen it quoted that the laser light source means that frequent calibration is not required.
However, if you were to look at competitor products, the light source is only one part of the requirement to re-calibrate. You must also consider the panel stability and in the case of spinning phosphor projectors, the behaviour of the phosphor over time.

Both the Sony and JVC reflective panel setups have known panel ageing phenomena. For the JVC it manifests as gamma droop. For the Sony it manifests (or manifested, if you believe it is fixed) as a raising black level and shrinking gamut. Both phenomena need recalibration to fix.

Anyone got objective data from LS10000/LS10500 units over a long period of time - not just brightness but also colour gamut and gamma response?
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post #896 of 1378 Old 11-22-2017, 12:48 AM
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I regularly measure my LS10500.
In one year and 350h there is no change at all.
Here you have two measurements with 30 and 350h one year apart.
Natural mode, echo mode, iris 0, and all the default settings.
http://www.filedropper.com/modonatur...brado30hlamp_1
http://www.filedropper.com/naturalnocalibrado356hlamp

I have spoken with other owners and the general consensus is that it is stable.
Slight changes in the white balance according to the ambient temperature, without changes in gamma or gamut.

Ekki is going to publish data from an LS that has not been used, to check if it has fallen gamma:
http://cine4home.de/forums/topic/dri...epson-ls10500/

Epson EH-LS10500 measurements:http://www.filedropper.com/img003
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post #897 of 1378 Old 11-22-2017, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mmdd View Post
I regularly measure my LS10500.
In one year and 350h there is no change at all.
Here you have two measurements with 30 and 350h one year apart.
Natural mode, echo mode, iris 0, and all the default settings.
http://www.filedropper.com/modonatur...brado30hlamp_1
http://www.filedropper.com/naturalnocalibrado356hlamp

I have spoken with other owners and the general consensus is that it is stable.
Slight changes in the white balance according to the ambient temperature, without changes in gamma or gamut.

Ekki is going to publish data from an LS that has not been used, to check if it has fallen gamma:
Thanks for the info. I'm hoping to find more hours used than 350 - for me much of the point of this light source is to be able to use it for many hours without concern.

I see Ekki said he would test on 3/Nov and so far no news... is this normal for Cine4Home/Ekki or a bad sign...?!

I was particularly concerned about this LS10000 post which seems very poor for so few hours:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post51335609
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post #898 of 1378 Old 11-22-2017, 04:04 AM
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The Icaro measures look very strange.
It measures very little contrast (under these conditions it should measure at least 20000: 1), and a considerable gamma increase.
I would like you to repeat the measurements with iris off, adequate heating of the projector and probe, and indicate the ambient temperature during the measurement.

The iris in the intermediate steps does not always close with the same precision.
To be sure, you must open the iris completely and then close it in the number you want.
Since the iris introduces errors in the grayscale, and especially in relation to the ambient temperature, I suspect that it may be the cause.

Epson EH-LS10500 measurements:http://www.filedropper.com/img003

Last edited by mmdd; 11-22-2017 at 04:11 AM.
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post #899 of 1378 Old 11-22-2017, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'm interested to understand more about the long term stability of this projector (and also LS10000 I guess). I'm very seriously considering LS10500 for my forthcoming build.

I've seen it quoted that the laser light source means that frequent calibration is not required.
However, if you were to look at competitor products, the light source is only one part of the requirement to re-calibrate. You must also consider the panel stability and in the case of spinning phosphor projectors, the behaviour of the phosphor over time.

Both the Sony and JVC reflective panel setups have known panel ageing phenomena. For the JVC it manifests as gamma droop. For the Sony it manifests (or manifested, if you believe it is fixed) as a raising black level and shrinking gamut. Both phenomena need recalibration to fix.

Anyone got objective data from LS10000/LS10500 units over a long period of time - not just brightness but also colour gamut and gamma response?
I think if you want the max in stability you will need to get an RGB LED or RGB LASER projector with DLP technology. Examples such as the DPI M vision cine led and Vivitek H9090 come to mind. With these two configurations there is basically nothing at all that can degrade other than the LED/lasers. Otherwise with phosphor laser the phosphor wheel degrades, and lcd/lcos the panel can degrade.
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post #900 of 1378 Old 11-22-2017, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmdd View Post
The Icaro measures look very strange.
It measures very little contrast (under these conditions it should measure at least 20000: 1), and a considerable gamma increase.
I would like you to repeat the measurements with iris off, adequate heating of the projector and probe, and indicate the ambient temperature during the measurement.

The iris in the intermediate steps does not always close with the same precision.
To be sure, you must open the iris completely and then close it in the number you want.
Since the iris introduces errors in the grayscale, and especially in relation to the ambient temperature, I suspect that it may be the cause.
As you say, the contrast measures are the first question (I was surprised to see such bad numbers, but it could just be too little probe integration time in Lightspace), though the max nits is pretty similar for the two sets of results. They do seem to be very odd results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
I think if you want the max in stability you will need to get an RGB LED or RGB LASER projector with DLP technology. Examples such as the DPI M vision cine led and Vivitek H9090 come to mind. With these two configurations there is basically nothing at all that can degrade other than the LED/lasers. Otherwise with phosphor laser the phosphor wheel degrades, and lcd/lcos the panel can degrade.
Please don't get me wrong; I'm not looking for perfection here. I understand both the panels and the phosphor could degrade. But I would like to ascertain what is reasonably expected for this projector. I live with a JVC X30 which is clearly not perfect! Anything with RBE possibility is an absolute no for me.

I would probably be most upset if this had contrast reduction due to panel degradation like has been seen on the Sony units.
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