Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 1284 Old 08-14-2018, 01:03 AM
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My question would be. I have a perfectly calibrated ls10000 rec2020. Do I need to use the harper settings or should I use the rec2020 setting and just use an linker and the Panasonic?


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post #1052 of 1284 Old 08-14-2018, 05:04 PM
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Anyone using an oppo 203 UHD player and the LS10500? Would be interested to know the settings you are using on both ends to get the best picture for both hdr 2020 and regular blu Ray.


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post #1053 of 1284 Old 08-15-2018, 08:08 PM
 
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Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector

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Originally Posted by Smack23 View Post
My question would be. I have a perfectly calibrated ls10000 rec2020. Do I need to use the harper settings or should I use the rec2020 setting and just use an linker and the Panasonic?


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I'm a little biased of course, but when I did comparisons while creating my HarperVision settings, I preferred mine over doing SDR to HDR conversion on the UB900.

I think now though the UB820 (if that's what you mean?) with its real HDR tone mapping could be the superior solution. I don't have an LS10500 any longer so can't test it unfortunately. Has anyone else used one on this?
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post #1054 of 1284 Old 08-15-2018, 10:31 PM
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Yes I mean the 820 ( here in Germany it is called the 824 ).


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post #1055 of 1284 Old 08-21-2018, 08:10 PM
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Final,t got my ub820 in, watching ready player one on uhd and it looks fantastic
Using the hdr 1 setting

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post #1056 of 1284 Old 08-21-2018, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
Final,t got my ub820 in, watching ready player one on uhd and it looks fantastic
Using the hdr 1 setting
Did you try sdr rec2020 instead?
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post #1057 of 1284 Old 08-21-2018, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
Final,t got my ub820 in, watching ready player one on uhd and it looks fantastic
Using the hdr 1 setting
Did you try sdr rec2020 instead?
where do I change this on the 820? I left it on auto so I assumed it sent rec2020

In regards to the hdr 1 setting, I was talking about the projector

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post #1058 of 1284 Old 08-22-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
where do I change this on the 820? I left it on auto so I assumed it sent rec2020

In regards to the hdr 1 setting, I was talking about the projector
Tone mapping can be done by the Projector (HDR 1, HDR 2, HDR 3, HDR 4), or it can be done by the UHD player if you have the Panasonic or Oppo. I personally let the Projector handle the tone mapping and use HDR 1, just as you did for Ready Player One. This is in a completely light controlled theater, 16 ft throw distance, 125" 2.35 (165" 16:9 equivalent) screen, Digital Cinema filter engaged.

As I said before, I use a customized gamma on the LS that uses Gamma 0 settings for the left half of the line and Gamma 1 settings on the right half of the line.

I find this arrangement to be FANTASTIC.

With the setup you used last night, if you are using Auto Bright HDR setting on the projector, make SURE to check the INFO page of the projector everytime you are at the UHD main menu screen. There are times my projector reads 12 bit 4:2:2 SDR, 8 bit 4:4:4 HDR, and 12 bit 4:2:2 HDR all while sending it 12 bit 4:2:2 HDR from the Oppo. the 12 4:2:2 HDR is what you want the Projector to identify from your source. The discrepancies seem to be with proper transfer of this metadata still being 'new' technology.

I've been watching Infinity War UHD disc with HDR 1, Digital Cinema, and that custom gamma curve, and it's breathtaking!
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post #1059 of 1284 Old 08-22-2018, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gassynizz View Post
Tone mapping can be done by the Projector (HDR 1, HDR 2, HDR 3, HDR 4), or it can be done by the UHD player if you have the Panasonic or Oppo. I personally let the Projector handle the tone mapping and use HDR 1, just as you did for Ready Player One. This is in a completely light controlled theater, 16 ft throw distance, 125" 2.35 (165" 16:9 equivalent) screen, Digital Cinema filter engaged.

As I said before, I use a customized gamma on the LS that uses Gamma 0 settings for the left half of the line and Gamma 1 settings on the right half of the line.

I find this arrangement to be FANTASTIC.

With the setup you used last night, if you are using Auto Bright HDR setting on the projector, make SURE to check the INFO page of the projector everytime you are at the UHD main menu screen. There are times my projector reads 12 bit 4:2:2 SDR, 8 bit 4:4:4 HDR, and 12 bit 4:2:2 HDR all while sending it 12 bit 4:2:2 HDR from the Oppo. the 12 4:2:2 HDR is what you want the Projector to identify from your source. The discrepancies seem to be with proper transfer of this metadata still being 'new' technology.

I've been watching Infinity War UHD disc with HDR 1, Digital Cinema, and that custom gamma curve, and it's breathtaking!
Will do, thanks for the advice
I was wondering where I could find the signal the projector was receiving

I would be shocked if it got any better than I saw last night, very crisp detailed picture, I do need to mess with the gamma settings to see if I can refine it, in addition to some settings on the 820 itself

I will say the hdr1 setting looks completely different when receiving the correct signal
Colors/contrast were way blown out with a standard signal, but once the 820 sends its signal, looks very nice

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post #1060 of 1284 Old 08-22-2018, 12:46 PM
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I will say the hdr1 setting looks completely different when receiving the correct signal
Colors/contrast were way blown out with a standard signal, but once the 820 sends its signal, looks very nice
On current consumer grade home theater projectors, HDR is either on or off. There is no Dolby Vision screen by screen or frame by frame adjustment. You can either leave it to the projector to turn HDR on or off, or you can do it manually.

When feeding the projector SDR signal, you want to have the projector in SDR mode otherwise you see the colors and contrasts WAY overblown. Conversely, feeding the projector HDR content while having the projector engage it’s SDR setting will result in drastically washed out colors and contrasts.

With the LS, it can misinterpret the data from my Oppo that says ‘turn on HDR,’ which is what I’ve been trying to point out in my rambling posts. This is why I always check the signal information on the LS to make sure it’s correct for hdr bt2020 UHD discs and sdr rec 709 for other content.

Again, the HDR settings on the LS are just the projector’s version of tone mapping. This is necessary as very few projectors can currently achieve a 1,000 nit difference between peak white and darkest black.

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post #1061 of 1284 Old 08-22-2018, 05:19 PM
 
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Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector

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........ Conversely, feeding the projector HDR content while having the projector engage it’s SDR setting will result in drastically washed out colors and contrasts.......

True...Until and unless you engage some HarperVision magic on that puppy!!!
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post #1062 of 1284 Old 08-23-2018, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
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Originally Posted by gassynizz View Post
........ Conversely, feeding the projector HDR content while having the projector engage it’s SDR setting will result in drastically washed out colors and contrasts.......

True...Until and unless you engage some HarperVision magic on that puppy!!!
I’ve read your posts before about HarperVision. It’s something I’d be willing to try....

So how does one try it for the LS10500?
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post #1063 of 1284 Old 08-23-2018, 12:47 PM
 
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I’ve read your posts before about HarperVision. It’s something I’d be willing to try....

So how does one try it for the LS10500?

There should be a link below my signature when using a PC to view AVS (I can’t see it here while on Tapatalk). If you search this thread you should find some settings too. Make sure to get the latest because the early ones were tweaked and enhanced since they were initially posted. I had some additional challenges with the LS10500 over the LS10000 iirc.
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post #1064 of 1284 Old 08-23-2018, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
There should be a link below my signature when using a PC to view AVS (I can’t see it here while on Tapatalk). If you search this thread you should find some settings too. Make sure to get the latest because the early ones were tweaked and enhanced since they were initially posted. I had some additional challenges with the LS10500 over the LS10000 iirc.
Your bottom signature says 'HarperVision HDR on SDR Settings for Epson LS10000 .'

Do you use those settings on the LS10500?
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post #1065 of 1284 Old 08-23-2018, 03:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gassynizz View Post
Your bottom signature says 'HarperVision HDR on SDR Settings for Epson LS10000 .'



Do you use those settings on the LS10500?

Sorry you’re correct. They ended up being posted by a CE Pro Home Theater Award winning client of mine back a few months ago:

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...0&share_type=t
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post #1066 of 1284 Old 08-23-2018, 04:00 PM
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Sorry you’re correct. They ended up being posted by a CE Pro Home Theater Award winning client of mine back a few months ago:

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...0&share_type=t
I found those not 5 minutes before you posted the link and after I’d replied with my question. Thanks for the response.

Lastly, looking at those 4 images, do you use the first image or the final 3? The first image is a GUI that doesn’t belong to the LS, the final 3 are from the LS.
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post #1067 of 1284 Old 08-23-2018, 04:13 PM
 
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I found those not 5 minutes before you posted the link and after I’d replied with my question. Thanks for the response.

Lastly, looking at those 4 images, do you use the first image or the final 3? The first image is a GUI that doesn’t belong to the LS, the final 3 are from the LS.
The first image is a workflow page from CalMAN calibration software. Transport those settings into your LS. The other ones from the LS can also be transferred, but they're more the end user settings like color, tint, brightness, contrast, etc. which need to be set there in your own environment with your own system components. I advise getting the Ryan Masciola UHD HDR Test Pattern Suite here http://diversifiedvideosolutions.com/dvs_uhdhdr-10.html to set those correctly with your system and environment.

Truthfully, if you're mainly using this for UHD Blurays now, I would highly recommend you just get the Panasonic UB820 player and see what that can give you with its reportedly awesome new dynamic HDR to SDR tone mapping features. I will be getting mine tomorrow, but I don't have an LS10500 any longer. Maybe someone else with one that has tried my HV settings and compared them to the 820 can comment further.
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post #1068 of 1284 Old 08-23-2018, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Truthfully, if you're mainly using this for UHD Blurays now, I would highly recommend you just get the Panasonic UB820 player and see what that can give you with its reportedly awesome new dynamic HDR to SDR tone mapping features. I will be getting mine tomorrow, but I don't have an LS10500 any longer. Maybe someone else with one that has tried my HV settings and compared them to the 820 can comment further.
So you find the tone mapping from the quality UHD players to be the equal of these settings?
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post #1069 of 1284 Old 08-25-2018, 10:02 AM
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A couple of questions

1. Peak white level in nits for this projector?
2. I did get the UB820 player and have it outputting sdr2020. I read a review on this projector, saying to set luminance to hdr1 more when playing 4K material, and from what I understand, the sdr2020 is the only signal this projector can use to attempt to create a 4K picture
I did this and the picture appears too deep in color saturation
Are you all using the luminance mode and if so, when?

Thanks

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post #1070 of 1284 Old 08-26-2018, 12:11 PM
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good afternoon.
For the panasonic 820 the best output is in hdr, the mapping of tones in sdr does not do it as well as the oppo.
In Hdr1, a calibration with the data left in the cms and adjustment of blnco according to screen and room.
If you want to use the sdr2020, it does not matter which hdr mode you put because it is not correct, if you put the hdr1, what you are doing is forcing the projector to a signal that does not ,it's best to leave it in auto bright
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post #1071 of 1284 Old 08-26-2018, 02:46 PM
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good afternoon.
For the panasonic 820 the best output is in hdr, the mapping of tones in sdr does not do it as well as the oppo.
In Hdr1, a calibration with the data left in the cms and adjustment of blnco according to screen and room.
If you want to use the sdr2020, it does not matter which hdr mode you put because it is not correct, if you put the hdr1, what you are doing is forcing the projector to a signal that does not ,it's best to leave it in auto bright
Thanks for the response

I am alittle confused though, as I have heard the LS10500 requires a sd2020 feed in order to utilize its 4K emulator
A hdr signal would not allow this to happen

Also, where are you hearing the 820 tone mapping is lacking with sdr2020
The 820 thread seems to think otherwise

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post #1072 of 1284 Old 08-27-2018, 12:41 AM
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From the ls10500 I can tell you almost everything, it is the 2 that I have and between the 2 I will take almost 3000h of viewing. I have the panasonic 424 that has the same image chip as the 820. As you can better get the hdr it is in the hdrbt2020 setting and in the epson the auto ,auto bright
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post #1073 of 1284 Old 08-28-2018, 12:49 PM
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Really liking this projector
Been watching a few uhd movies and the resolution is apparent, especially when I switch back to normal tv viewing(direct tv now via Apple TV)
Normal tv has pretty darn good pq but the 4K emulation is night and day better
This is better than the movie theatre!

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post #1074 of 1284 Old 08-28-2018, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myllaki73 View Post
good afternoon.
For the panasonic 820 the best output is in hdr, the mapping of tones in sdr does not do it as well as the oppo.
In Hdr1, a calibration with the data left in the cms and adjustment of blnco according to screen and room.
If you want to use the sdr2020, it does not matter which hdr mode you put because it is not correct, if you put the hdr1, what you are doing is forcing the projector to a signal that does not ,it's best to leave it in auto bright
As Kris Deering has said repeatedly, you should be using SDR 2020 with the 820 on a projector. Turn on the HDR optimizer and set the slider accordingly. The higher you go on the slider, you get a brighter image but more compressed highlights. I've also found the white tone setting beneficial. Make sure you select the projector setting as well in the main menu. I've been using the 820 with my JVC RS440 and have been very impressed.
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post #1075 of 1284 Old 08-28-2018, 04:25 PM
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Thanks for the response

I am alittle confused though, as I have heard the LS10500 requires a sd2020 feed in order to utilize its 4K emulator
A hdr signal would not allow this to happen

Also, where are you hearing the 820 tone mapping is lacking with sdr2020
The 820 thread seems to think otherwise
Having put several hundred hours on this projector watching 4K HDR UHD discs, I recommend you send the projector the HDR signal from HDR movies on disc. I have the Oppo 203 which has top of the line tone mapping while converting an HDR disc to SDR. I have tried every setting from Oppo on the tone mapping, and none of them are nearly as awesome as just sending the HDR signal to the projector and using HDR 1.

I have a completely light controlled theater, as you mention you have. I also believe you and I are using the same screen size. My screen has a 1.1 gain, so not too much change with that. My distance from projector lens to screen is around 16 feet. I use a custom LS10500 gamma where the first 5 dots to the left are directly on the line, and the second 5 dots to the right are 1 setting above the line. I use digital cinema and use the calibration data from Projectorreviews.com for this projector in HDR mode.

These settings are FANTASTIC. Again, sending an HDR signal to this projector from a 4K HDR disc using HDR 1 on the projector is BY FAR the best way to experience HDR content with the LS10500.

The difficulty comes in from other places. Namely, the projector can't accept a 4K signal at 60 fps that is also HDR. The data load for this signal is beyond the HDMI board's specifications in the LS. THIS HAS NO BEARING ON SENDING AN HDR SIGNAL TO THE PROJECTOR FROM A 4K UHD HDR DISC FOR 24 FPS MOVIES.

The limited HDR ability becomes an issue if you are trying to stream 4K HDR at 60 FPS. This may effect AppleTV or Netflix or other streaming services. I have, as a test, streamed some 4K HDR digital versions of movies I purchased on disc, and I can tell you that hands down the quality of the disc is radically better. If I care to own a movie, I buy the physical media so that I can maximize the awesomeness of this projector.
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post #1076 of 1284 Old 08-28-2018, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
As Kris Deering has said repeatedly, you should be using SDR 2020 with the 820 on a projector. Turn on the HDR optimizer and set the slider accordingly. The higher you go on the slider, you get a brighter image but more compressed highlights. I've also found the white tone setting beneficial. Make sure you select the projector setting as well in the main menu. I've been using the 820 with my JVC RS440 and have been very impressed.
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Having put several hundred hours on this projector watching 4K HDR UHD discs, I recommend you send the projector the HDR signal from HDR movies on disc. I have the Oppo 203 which has top of the line tone mapping while converting an HDR disc to SDR. I have tried every setting from Oppo on the tone mapping, and none of them are nearly as awesome as just sending the HDR signal to the projector and using HDR 1.

I have a completely light controlled theater, as you mention you have. I also believe you and I are using the same screen size. My screen has a 1.1 gain, so not too much change with that. My distance from projector lens to screen is around 16 feet. I use a custom LS10500 gamma where the first 5 dots to the left are directly on the line, and the second 5 dots to the right are 1 setting above the line. I use digital cinema and use the calibration data from Projectorreviews.com for this projector in HDR mode.

These settings are FANTASTIC. Again, sending an HDR signal to this projector from a 4K HDR disc using HDR 1 on the projector is BY FAR the best way to experience HDR content with the LS10500.

The difficulty comes in from other places. Namely, the projector can't accept a 4K signal at 60 fps that is also HDR. The data load for this signal is beyond the HDMI board's specifications in the LS. THIS HAS NO BEARING ON SENDING AN HDR SIGNAL TO THE PROJECTOR FROM A 4K UHD HDR DISC FOR 24 FPS MOVIES.

The limited HDR ability becomes an issue if you are trying to stream 4K HDR at 60 FPS. This may effect AppleTV or Netflix or other streaming services. I have, as a test, streamed some 4K HDR digital versions of movies I purchased on disc, and I can tell you that hands down the quality of the disc is radically better. If I care to own a movie, I buy the physical media so that I can maximize the awesomeness of this projector.
These quotes confuse me

I do know that the 820 will send a hdr signal to my LS10500 and it seems to accept, which makes me think it can accept a hdr feed, I watched ready player one with a hdr feed and hdr 1 setting on the projector and it looked fantastic
But then you have others saying a sdr2020, and I’ve watched the dark tower and another movie in they looked great as well

I guess I need to do a side by side, with pics to see what I like best

Thanks for all the responses

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post #1077 of 1284 Old 08-29-2018, 10:45 AM
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I guess I need to do a side by side, with pics to see what I like best

Thanks for all the responses
This is a great choice - compare HDR signal into the projector vs sdr tone mapping from your UHD player and see which you prefer. My experience is that this projector shines when being fed an HDR signal from disc.

The reason there has been such discussion about sdr with tone mapping for projectors is that HDR is mastered for televisions that can achieve a peak white level of 1000 nits. That’s roughly 3100 calibrated lumens. Almost no projector available to put in your home theater has that kind of power.

I personally have found the HDR playback of the LS to be vastly superior the tone mapping of my Oppo regarding image quality. I’ve also compared 4K HDR 24 FPS movies on disc on my LS and my 4K HDR Samsung. The image is the same, except that the LS is projecting an image 100” wider diagonally and thus radically more immersive.

All food for thought.
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post #1078 of 1284 Old 08-29-2018, 11:42 AM
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Tone mapping can be done by the Projector (HDR 1, HDR 2, HDR 3, HDR 4), or it can be done by the UHD player if you have the Panasonic or Oppo. I personally let the Projector handle the tone mapping and use HDR 1, just as you did for Ready Player One. This is in a completely light controlled theater, 16 ft throw distance, 125" 2.35 (165" 16:9 equivalent) screen, Digital Cinema filter engaged.

As I said before, I use a customized gamma on the LS that uses Gamma 0 settings for the left half of the line and Gamma 1 settings on the right half of the line.

I find this arrangement to be FANTASTIC.

With the setup you used last night, if you are using Auto Bright HDR setting on the projector, make SURE to check the INFO page of the projector everytime you are at the UHD main menu screen. There are times my projector reads 12 bit 4:2:2 SDR, 8 bit 4:4:4 HDR, and 12 bit 4:2:2 HDR all while sending it 12 bit 4:2:2 HDR from the Oppo. the 12 4:2:2 HDR is what you want the Projector to identify from your source. The discrepancies seem to be with proper transfer of this metadata still being 'new' technology.

I've been watching Infinity War UHD disc with HDR 1, Digital Cinema, and that custom gamma curve, and it's breathtaking!
If 125" diagonal 2.35, that is the same width as a 132" diagonal 16:9.
If you mean 125" wide 2.35 then it is the same width as a 143" diagonal 16:9.
A 165" diagonal 16:9 screen is 12' wide.

The LS10500 is not bright enough to light up a 12' wide screen in HDR, unless you have quite a bit of gain on the screen.
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post #1079 of 1284 Old 08-29-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
These quotes confuse me

I do know that the 820 will send a hdr signal to my LS10500 and it seems to accept, which makes me think it can accept a hdr feed, I watched ready player one with a hdr feed and hdr 1 setting on the projector and it looked fantastic
But then you have others saying a sdr2020, and I’ve watched the dark tower and another movie in they looked great as well

I guess I need to do a side by side, with pics to see what I like best

Thanks for all the responses
At the end of the day, everything is tone mapping. So it's a matter of what works best. Remember, we are not getting anywhere near true HDR with projection as UHD BD was designed with flat panels getting 1000+ nits. So, using the SDR 2020 mode (with proper settings on the 820) tone maps to projector level luminance and will give a better balanced image than sending an HDR signal from the player to the projector as it will clip rather low causing issues including resolving fewer highlights. This is not something that may show in every scene, but it will in some. I was using custom Arve curves on my JVC which is superior to the projector HDR setting and the 820 with SDR 2020 still does a better job. The 820 also looks at the metadata on the disc so it's dynamically mapping in that sense vs when you send HDR from the player to the projector where the LS looks at it statically (or 'dumb' in a sense).

Last edited by DavidHir; 08-29-2018 at 01:31 PM.
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post #1080 of 1284 Old 08-29-2018, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gassynizz View Post
Tone mapping can be done by the Projector (HDR 1, HDR 2, HDR 3, HDR 4), or it can be done by the UHD player if you have the Panasonic or Oppo. I personally let the Projector handle the tone mapping and use HDR 1, just as you did for Ready Player One. This is in a completely light controlled theater, 16 ft throw distance, 125" 2.35 (165" 16:9 equivalent) screen, Digital Cinema filter engaged.

As I said before, I use a customized gamma on the LS that uses Gamma 0 settings for the left half of the line and Gamma 1 settings on the right half of the line.

I find this arrangement to be FANTASTIC.

With the setup you used last night, if you are using Auto Bright HDR setting on the projector, make SURE to check the INFO page of the projector everytime you are at the UHD main menu screen. There are times my projector reads 12 bit 4:2:2 SDR, 8 bit 4:4:4 HDR, and 12 bit 4:2:2 HDR all while sending it 12 bit 4:2:2 HDR from the Oppo. the 12 4:2:2 HDR is what you want the Projector to identify from your source. The discrepancies seem to be with proper transfer of this metadata still being 'new' technology.

I've been watching Infinity War UHD disc with HDR 1, Digital Cinema, and that custom gamma curve, and it's breathtaking!
If 125" diagonal 2.35, that is the same width as a 132" diagonal 16:9.
If you mean 125" wide 2.35 then it is the same width as a 143" diagonal 16:9.
A 165" diagonal 16:9 screen is 12' wide.

The LS10500 is not bright enough to light up a 12' wide screen in HDR, unless you have quite a bit of gain on the screen.
My math was off - 137” equivalent!! Should’ve checked the product sheet. Oh well.

The LS is definitely bright enough to light up a 1.1 gain 125” 2.35 screen with HDR content. To this I will personally attest.
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