Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 1280 Old 09-23-2018, 07:07 PM
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I am hoping next year will be some big announcements from Epson. Both the 5040/6040 and LS10500 will be coming to their 3 year product cycle. The 10500 was a bigger upgrade over the 10000 than most think. While the light path and outer chassis stayed the basically same the whole mother board is entirely different, it wasn't a matter of just changing some HDMI boards.

4K is a problem for any manufacturer of projectors no matter which technology they are using LCD, LCOS, or DLP. It is simple problem of space. If you look at your average 65" TV to go from 2 million to 8 million pixels you jumped from approximately 1000 pixels per square in inch to 4000 pixels per square inch. in most projectors you have to jump from 2 million to 8 million pixels in less than a square inch. With projectors whether you are reflecting light or letting it pass through a chip, when you make smaller pixels less light gets through to the lens reducing contrast. This is why the various faux 4k methods like E-shift, 4K enhancement, etc. exist.

To solve this problem projector manufactures have two possible solutions. Make better chips which can have better contrast or make larger chips. The first method doesn't magically happen and takes a lot of development. The second method is the easier solution but bigger chips requires bigger lenses which to keep the same quality of lens increases cost. The new JVC compromised a little contrast but let's face they had class leading contrast to start and could afford to give up a little. DLP has also done it with larger chips but there are no entry level or even under $10k true 4K DLPs. Sony, the same thing, their 4K chips are slightly bigger than their 1080 chips. I'm not sure if that is true of Epson and its commercial model 4K. Wait until 8K comes
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post #1112 of 1280 Old 10-09-2018, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
I am hoping next year will be some big announcements from Epson. Both the 5040/6040 and LS10500 will be coming to their 3 year product cycle. The 10500 was a bigger upgrade over the 10000 than most think. While the light path and outer chassis stayed the basically same the whole mother board is entirely different, it wasn't a matter of just changing some HDMI boards.

4K is a problem for any manufacturer of projectors no matter which technology they are using LCD, LCOS, or DLP. It is simple problem of space. If you look at your average 65" TV to go from 2 million to 8 million pixels you jumped from approximately 1000 pixels per square in inch to 4000 pixels per square inch. in most projectors you have to jump from 2 million to 8 million pixels in less than a square inch. With projectors whether you are reflecting light or letting it pass through a chip, when you make smaller pixels less light gets through to the lens reducing contrast. This is why the various faux 4k methods like E-shift, 4K enhancement, etc. exist.

To solve this problem projector manufactures have two possible solutions. Make better chips which can have better contrast or make larger chips. The first method doesn't magically happen and takes a lot of development. The second method is the easier solution but bigger chips requires bigger lenses which to keep the same quality of lens increases cost. The new JVC compromised a little contrast but let's face they had class leading contrast to start and could afford to give up a little. DLP has also done it with larger chips but there are no entry level or even under $10k true 4K DLPs. Sony, the same thing, their 4K chips are slightly bigger than their 1080 chips. I'm not sure if that is true of Epson and its commercial model 4K. Wait until 8K comes
Very happy with my LS10500 since i got it. Accepts HDR & 4k and plays beautifully, this PJ is a steal and offer 25-30K hours before you start worrying just amazing.
I did call Chad for calibrating it as soon as i got it and thanks to Chad +++ came over and calibrated this wonderful piece of art. I recommend everyone to calibrate the unit professionally. Without worrying bulb life or performance and keep calibrating the unit according to bulbs output. Very crisp beautiful pictures.

Who is out there thinking about getting this unit, i highly recommend it based on my experience with it.
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Last edited by Salacak; 10-09-2018 at 06:21 PM.
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post #1113 of 1280 Old 10-11-2018, 07:45 AM
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What is the lag on the 10500 for gaming? Is it a worthy gaming projector?
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post #1114 of 1280 Old 10-13-2018, 08:13 PM
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I have a LS10000 not the 10500 -- one reason to buy Epson is the warranty. The motorized lens cover on my LS10000 failed and a day later the replacement projector arrived. Overall it is a better unit than my original one -- very happy with it! Fortunately I had about 3 months left on my 3 year warranty -- Epson was great with a no hassle replacement.
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post #1115 of 1280 Old 10-14-2018, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I have a LS10000 not the 10500 -- one reason to buy Epson is the warranty. The motorized lens cover on my LS10000 failed and a day later the replacement projector arrived. Overall it is a better unit than my original one -- very happy with it! Fortunately I had about 3 months left on my 3 year warranty -- Epson was great with a no hassle replacement.
!!

You got a completely new projector instead of just fixing the motorized lens cover? Why?
What about the convergence of the model?

My lens cover also stopped working properly a few weeks ago (does not close completely) and I have a few dust blobs as well, and still a few month warranty.

I will send it soon for "repair".
But my exemplar has very good convergence, so ..

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post #1116 of 1280 Old 10-14-2018, 06:06 AM
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I think Epson tend to send people refurbed units rather than repair and send back your broken one. I don't know what kind of overall condition the replacements are, but hopefully they're going to be acceptable. They're going to need to be recalibrated too, though I found mine didn't look a great deal different when calibrated for REC709, but 2020 did look better afterwards. That's where the most visible difference seemed to be.

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post #1117 of 1280 Old 10-14-2018, 09:31 AM
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I think Epson tend to send people refurbed units rather than repair and send back your broken one. I don't know what kind of overall condition the replacements are, but hopefully they're going to be acceptable. They're going to need to be recalibrated too, though I found mine didn't look a great deal different when calibrated for REC709, but 2020 did look better afterwards. That's where the most visible difference seemed to be.
The replacement unit I received has better convergence than my original LS10000. The replacement warranty is nice since you are not without a projector for weeks or maybe a month or more. The replacement was a later build and so far is overall a better projector.


I put 6Xs as many hours on the Epson than I have on my JVC projectors mainly due to the laser -- its my go to projector -- no hesitation about wasting the lamp. Both Sony and JVC need an e-shift type laser projector at a price that's competitive with Epson. I'll take laser with faux 4K over 4K and laser any day at 1/4 to 1/5 the price!
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post #1118 of 1280 Old 10-14-2018, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I put 6Xs as many hours on the Epson than I have on my JVC projectors mainly due to the laser -- its my go to projector -- no hesitation about wasting the lamp. Both Sony and JVC need an e-shift type laser projector at a price that's competitive with Epson. I'll take laser with faux 4K over 4K and laser any day at 1/4 to 1/5 the price!
I completely agree - even in split screen comparisons it's difficult to see the resolution difference between 4K and fauK. That's why I was surprised that JVC came out with 4K and not laser this time round, though marketing does seem more successful with 4K in the title (just see the fauK DLPs and how many even here think they're 4k). Though I think there will be a visible image quality improvement with JVCs 4K panels similar to that seen on the 4500 due to the reduction in image noise. I wonder if JVC did try laser with the eshift model but found there was no change in the image, but found there was with 4K panels. I guess we'll never know.

All the Epson needs is more contrast and lumens - lumens does seem to be more of a complaint here though, but even so, I prefer the image it throws over the JVCs and the lower contrast isn't a big deal in much the same way it isn't for the people with 4500s. The Epsons image is more analogue, cleaner and more stable compared to the eshift JVCs.

I think JVC have probably lost that opportunity now as I can't see them adding laser to the 7900 and will probably do that with the 4K models at some stage instead, but who knows how much that will cost. I would imagine that laser will become more of the norm, and lamps will be more entry level in the future.

I hope Epson have a new laser model in the pipeline as I'll want something to upgrade to in a few years time.

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post #1119 of 1280 Old 10-14-2018, 05:39 PM
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I think it’s unfair to lump DLP XPR2/4 with fauxK JVC or Epsons.

They really do resolve 1:1 pixel patterns which qualifies as 4K in my book. This is done in a summed temporal space. No different from how RGB is recreated by DLP using a single panel.

The downsides to me are the milky greys on DLPs which is really really hard to stomach.

All that said, after getting my Sony 760ES, it’s going to be tough going to any lamp based projector.

I just wish the Epson got a lumens boost this next gen - I don’t think a true 4K panel is needed either.
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post #1120 of 1280 Old 10-14-2018, 05:52 PM
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They really don't.

They overlap pixels in exactly the same way as eshift to create sub pixels so the pixels we see aren't discrete or accurate to the source - the 4x 1080 XPR may get closer to replicating a UHD test pattern but the original 4.15m XPR chip certainly couldn't. The full pixel overlap to reproduce colour is different to the pixel shift required to increase the perceived resolution as that only overlaps at the corners.

There's a dedicated thread for this so it's best taken there rather than discuss it here. There's a lot of misunderstanding there too so it's no surprise that people still think 4K DLP is the same as native 4K.

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post #1121 of 1280 Old 10-14-2018, 07:27 PM
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4K does look fantastic on this projector
I can really tell a difference, after watching a 2 hr 4K movie, then turning cable back on , night and day

I’m sure I’m losing some pop, but I love the picture at 160”

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post #1122 of 1280 Old 10-16-2018, 06:07 AM
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Panasonic UB820 HDR/SDR bt2020 samples with LS10500

Here are some eye candies for you guys, this is a Epson LS10500 (i love this PJ) with Panny ub820 experimenting HDR/SDR comparison

These samples i put not exactly the same frames but you got the idea





Another













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post #1123 of 1280 Old 10-16-2018, 06:44 AM
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Looks great. I have always admired these Epson units.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Salacak View Post
Here are some eye candies for you guys, this is a Epson LS10500 (i love this PJ) with Panny ub820 experimenting HDR/SDR comparison

These samples i put not exactly the same frames but you got the idea





Another













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post #1124 of 1280 Old 10-16-2018, 11:32 PM
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I think it’s unfair to lump DLP XPR2/4 with fauxK JVC or Epsons.

They really do resolve 1:1 pixel patterns which qualifies as 4K in my book. This is done in a summed temporal space. No different from how RGB is recreated by DLP using a single panel.

The downsides to me are the milky greys on DLPs which is really really hard to stomach.

All that said, after getting my Sony 760ES, it’s going to be tough going to any lamp based projector.

I just wish the Epson got a lumens boost this next gen - I don’t think a true 4K panel is needed either.

Yes I have to agree here. A 3840x2160 Windows desktop looks absolutely pin sharp edge to edge with text on my Benq W11000. Looks the same if not sharper than my 65" 4k OLED displaying text through HTPC.

I have seen an LS10000 doing faux 4K and it looks very blurry in comparison. I haven't seen JVC doing faux 4K but I guess it would be similar to the Epson.
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post #1125 of 1280 Old 10-17-2018, 06:28 AM
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They do look quite sharp - the Optoma UHD300x I saw did look pretty good detail wise (being fed via HTPC and the desktop was well rendered), but it lacked contrast and a decent black level. It did throw a nice image otherwise. Being an eshift projector with a sharp image doesn't make it a native 4K projector though which is the main issue - there's a difference between 'looking sharper' and an ability to render a test pattern or source material accurately, and none of the pixel shifters will be able to do that. So far, only a native 4K panel can do that as far as I'm aware.

With test patterns and a Windows desktop (and games too) the resolution being used to render them will be more apparent, especially when using more pixels to render it, but for video (which is what most of us use a projector for), the resolution is almost inconsequential and way down the list of what makes a good picture, which is why eshift works so well, but contrast and black levels make a visibly bigger difference which is why those qualities are usually at or near the top of what is important for most people, all else being equal.

I've seen LS10000 and JVC eshift in split screen with a native Sony 4K (all fully calibrated) and it's almost impossible to tell which one is the Sony unless you have a scene which shows up the contrast and black level differences, and then you can tell them apart. If you compare them using a static scene (lots of people standing around) and look closely, then you can just see a resolution difference, but it's very small. With any motion it's extremely difficult which is why you then have to rely on other things in the image to tell which pj is which. Contrast and black levels are usually the biggest differentiator.

There was a post in another thread which showed various projectors rendering the Quick Brown Fox test pattern and the LS10000 was marginally better than the JVCs (surprisingly), with the Sony's being a little better IIRC. I would think the eshift DLPs would do quite well there too - I'll have to see if I can run that test at some time. I would think that they could even look 'sharper' than the native 4K Sony, but that's due to the tech difference - being single chip rather than three for example. It'll be interesting to see how well the 300 for example can render a 4K black and white pixel test pattern

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post #1126 of 1280 Old 10-17-2018, 08:18 AM
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The brown fox pattern did look very good on Soulnight's LS unit. However, I think he was also using MadVr (which is considered the gold standard for scaling) where as the JVC was not. I would like to see both eshift projectors with Madvr scaling compared to native 4K of the new JVC and Sony.
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post #1127 of 1280 Old 10-17-2018, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
The brown fox pattern did look very good on Soulnight's LS unit. However, I think he was also using MadVr (which is considered the gold standard for scaling) where as the JVC was not. I would like to see both eshift projectors with Madvr scaling compared to native 4K of the new JVC and Sony.
I played the 4K pattern with the windows picture viewer and with mpc-be (madvr).

BUT: The brown fox pattern I played was native 4K with RGB outputs (and so was the JVC and Sony ones used in the same comparison).
Neither did windows, madvr or the projector have to do any scaling.

You can use a 1080p pattern if you want to look at upscaling capabilities.
But with the 4K pattern, the goal is see to how the projector resolve the 4K resolution given a 4K signal.

But the end point is: the Epson LS10000 when fed with native 4K RGB signal is pretty sharp and does an excellent with it's E-shift.
Much better than any JVC (not counting the 4k and not even considering that the JVC create picture noise but the Epson does not) and pretty close to the native 4K of the Sony (probably because they use cheap lens).

:-)

ps: Epson internal 4K upscaling is very bad and makes the picture blurry and noisy.
It was a very bad move from Epson at the time especially with Sony having great 4K upscaler.
With madvr or a panasonic 4K player, upscaling is excellent and the Epson can then demonstrate what it can REALLY do. :-)
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Last edited by Soulnight; 10-17-2018 at 10:25 AM.
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post #1128 of 1280 Old 10-28-2018, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salacak View Post
Here are some eye candies for you guys, this is a Epson LS10500 (i love this PJ) with Panny ub820 experimenting HDR/SDR comparison

These samples i put not exactly the same frames but you got the idea





What settings do you use to view UHDs?
On the player and on the vpj,
On Epson do you use EDID 1 or 2?

Thanks

Sorry for my bad English
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Last edited by Icaro; 10-28-2018 at 04:54 AM.
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post #1129 of 1280 Old 10-28-2018, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post

But the end point is: the Epson LS10000 when fed with native 4K RGB signal is pretty sharp and does an excellent with it's E-shift.
Much better than any JVC (not counting the 4k and not even considering that the JVC create picture noise but the Epson does not) and pretty close to the native 4K of the Sony (probably because they use cheap lens).
That's interesting because Cine4home found some shots where JVC eshift 3 (which everyone concedes in not as sharp/detailed as eshift 4 or 5) was slightly more detailed than the LS10000. Although in some shots, the LS10000 was better. So kind of mixed. Claiming the LS10000 is "much better" than a newer JVC eshift is a bold claim. When I did a shootout at home with the RS400 (eshift4) vs the LS10000, I found the JVC to be a bit sharper and didn't see any additional noise from my regular seating position. Because the JVC was a little sharper, I did find it capable of resolving film grain better which some do find intrusive.

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek..._vpl_vw300.htm
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post #1130 of 1280 Old 10-28-2018, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
That's interesting because Cine4home found some shots where JVC eshift 3 (which everyone concedes in not as sharp/detailed as eshift 4 or 5) was slightly more detailed than the LS10000. Although in some shots, the LS10000 was better. So kind of mixed. Claiming the LS10000 is "much better" than a newer JVC eshift is a bold claim. When I did a shootout at home with the RS400 (eshift4) vs the LS10000, I found the JVC to be a bit sharper and didn't see any additional noise from my regular seating position. Because the JVC was a little sharper, I did find it capable of resolving film grain better which some do find intrusive.

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek..._vpl_vw300.htm
Not sure that Ekki has used 4k RGB input for this comparison. ;-) Very important point as I wrote earlier for the Epson ls10000.

And jvc have very visible video noise to me. But I guess some people are less sensitive to it.



Like for sparkles for alr screen: some don't see anything and for example I find the stewart 130 screen to provide a dirty/ sparkly picture.

But I don't want to make bold claims. If you have seen the opposite than my personal experience. That's also fine.

Cheers ;-)
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post #1131 of 1280 Old 10-28-2018, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Not sure that Ekki has used 4k RGB input for this comparison. ;-) Very important point as I wrote earlier for the Epson ls10000.

And jvc have very visible video noise to me. But I guess some people are less sensitive to it.



Like for sparkles for alr screen: some don't see anything and for example I find the stewart 130 screen to provide a dirty/ sparkly picture.

But I don't want to make bold claims. If you have seen the opposite than my personal experience. That's also fine.

Cheers ;-)
Well, we can definitely agree on the screen sparklies as I hate them - which is why I use the ST100.
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post #1132 of 1280 Old 10-28-2018, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post

And jvc have very visible video noise to me. But I guess some people are less sensitive to it.


Me too. I've always been a bit sensitive to image noise since the days of DVD and mpg compression, and the LS give a very analogue and noise free image which appears more 'solid' and stable (no micro flicker either), especially in a split screen comparison. When you compare them like that, what looks like possible grain on the JVC isn't on the LS so is added noise.

I like the greater contrast of the mid to high range JVCs, but would rather have less contrast than more noise, since the noise is moving and a distraction. But like you say, I guess not everyone is as sensitive to it, and most people will usually go for the higher contrast display.

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post #1133 of 1280 Old 10-28-2018, 05:38 PM
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What settings do you use to view UHDs?
On the player and on the vpj,
On Epson do you use EDID 1 or 2?

Thanks
You can do HDR or SDR bt2020 on the player setup, whichever picture you like better.
On Epson edid-1
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post #1134 of 1280 Old 10-28-2018, 08:03 PM
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My neighbor came over yesterday and saw the pq of red dead redemption on this projector

He was amazed, didn’t know projectors had such good pq

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post #1135 of 1280 Old 10-29-2018, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salacak View Post
You can do HDR or SDR bt2020 on the player setup, whichever picture you like better.
On Epson edid-1
Thanks,

So you display UHD material in SDR-BT.2020?
If I'm not mistaken, EDID 1 is used to display in Rec.709 and SDR-BT.2020, while EDID 2 is used to display in HDR-BT.2020.
Which color space do you place on the Epson with the UHD?
HDMI extended or normal?

Finally, could you tell me patterns to adjust Brightness and Contrast in UHD?

Thank you

Sorry for my bad English
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post #1136 of 1280 Old 10-29-2018, 08:37 AM
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You can do HDR or SDR bt2020 on the player setup, whichever picture you like better.
On Epson edid-1
Thanks,

So you display UHD material in SDR-BT.2020?
If I'm not mistaken, EDID 1 is used to display in Rec.709 and SDR-BT.2020, while EDID 2 is used to display in HDR-BT.2020.
Which color space do you place on the Epson with the UHD?
HDMI extended or normal?

Finally, could you tell me patterns to adjust Brightness and Contrast in UHD?

Thank you
EDID 1 is for HDR material, which only comes in the BT2020 space. This is according to Epson’s official LS10500 manual.

So, EDID 1 is for UHD HDR material, and it’s where my projector is set whether it be 4K disc, Blu-ray Disc, or any stream. You can always set the projector to SDR within EDID 1.

I always display HDR content as an HDR input into the LS, I never strip the metadata and tone map before sending the signal to the LS and have had EXCELLENT results.
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post #1137 of 1280 Old 10-29-2018, 10:42 AM
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EDID 1 is for HDR material, which only comes in the BT2020 space. This is according to Epson’s official LS10500 manual.

So, EDID 1 is for UHD HDR material, and it’s where my projector is set whether it be 4K disc, Blu-ray Disc, or any stream. You can always set the projector to SDR within EDID 1.

I always display HDR content as an HDR input into the LS, I never strip the metadata and tone map before sending the signal to the LS and have had EXCELLENT results.
Ok, thanks for the explanation.
(Sorry I had made confusion between EDID 1 and 2)
I use an HTPC as a player, so today I bought a new GPU (AMD RX 580).
I've never tried a BD UHD yet.
Is there anyone here who uses MadVr and could you tell me the best settings or share their own, for UHD HDR material with the 10500?
Thank you

Sorry for my bad English
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Last edited by Icaro; 10-29-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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post #1138 of 1280 Old 10-29-2018, 11:14 AM
 
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Thanks,



So you display UHD material in SDR-BT.2020?

If I'm not mistaken, EDID 1 is used to display in Rec.709 and SDR-BT.2020, while EDID 2 is used to display in HDR-BT.2020.

Which color space do you place on the Epson with the UHD?

HDMI extended or normal?



Finally, could you tell me patterns to adjust Brightness and Contrast in UHD?




Thank you

Set it to HDMI Normal (16-235 Video levels). The EDID settings you’ve already discussed are the ones associated with SDR and HDR bandwidths. The Extended and Normal settings are for setting Dynamic Range of the signal. These are called different things on different manufacturers units, so it can be very confusing.

I would download the Ryan Masciola UHD HDR Test Pattern Suite here to set black, white levels and other user settings as well as many other pro test patterns:

http://diversifiedvideosolutions.com

Go into the Basic Patterns menu and you’ll see pattern options for setting black and white clipping. You want to see the bar just above 0% ever so slightly flashing for the black setting and I would say to have the last bar of the white clipping pattern be flashing somewhere between 1,000 - 1,200 nits. Set it to what you like best to avoid blowing out whites specular highlights in things like the clouds in The Revenant movie. You may have to adjust this a few times the more discs you watch since they vary in their mastering and can clip at different points and mastered at 1,000, 4,000 and 10,000 nits.

In the meantime you can also put in any Sony/Columbia Tristar disc and when at the menu, hit 7669 (spells Sony) on the remote and it will bring up some basic test patterns you can use.
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post #1139 of 1280 Old 10-30-2018, 09:43 AM
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Set it to HDMI Normal (16-235 Video levels). The EDID settings you’ve already discussed are the ones associated with SDR and HDR bandwidths. The Extended and Normal settings are for setting Dynamic Range of the signal. These are called different things on different manufacturers units, so it can be very confusing.

I would download the Ryan Masciola UHD HDR Test Pattern Suite here to set black, white levels and other user settings as well as many other pro test patterns:

http://diversifiedvideosolutions.com

Go into the Basic Patterns menu and you’ll see pattern options for setting black and white clipping. You want to see the bar just above 0% ever so slightly flashing for the black setting and I would say to have the last bar of the white clipping pattern be flashing somewhere between 1,000 - 1,200 nits. Set it to what you like best to avoid blowing out whites specular highlights in things like the clouds in The Revenant movie. You may have to adjust this a few times the more discs you watch since they vary in their mastering and can clip at different points and mastered at 1,000, 4,000 and 10,000 nits.

In the meantime you can also put in any Sony/Columbia Tristar disc and when at the menu, hit 7669 (spells Sony) on the remote and it will bring up some basic test patterns you can use.

Thank you so much Dave.

Can someone using MadVr recommend to me the settings that go well with the 10500?
I have an AMD RX580 gpu, Win7 64bit
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post #1140 of 1280 Old 11-01-2018, 05:25 AM
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Does anyone here use this?
How do you find ?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...projector.html

Sorry for my bad English
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