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-   -   Epson LS10500 4K (enhance) laser projector (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2580129-epson-ls10500-4k-enhance-laser-projector.html)

RickAVManiac 09-14-2016 04:27 AM

Epson LS10500 4K (enhancement) laser projector
 
Epson will finally update is LS10000 with the new LS10500.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300327679.html

The new projector seem to be very similar to the LS10000, same brightness and no native 4k but now with the support for a 4K source and HDR.

No mention of a 4k source frame interpolation support and no mention of full 18gps support.

Look like they use the same processing as there new 3LCD

kohe321 09-14-2016 05:44 AM

So just a few tweaks to the current platform and no major changes. A bit of a bummer, but oh well.

It will probably have the new and improved lens as seen on the 5040, which is already an updated version of the lens that is in the LS10000. This together with the newest version of Epson's pixel shift system should result in a bit better overall image quality. Full DCI P3 coverage that can actually be calibrated and mapped is of course a big selling point as well, giving the option to watch SDR UHD's with a HDfury and get the full color gamut is just great. Though, I was hoping that last thing would be added via firmware to the existing LS10000.

The 5040 was built from the ground up on an entirely new platform, so I guess it's too early to expect that for the LS10000. This seem to be a stepping stone projector in the new and still not yet completely set in stone territory that is UHD blu-ray.

It's clear that JVC are the ones pushing the envelope right now. That said, the LS10500 can now stand in competition. At 7,999$ with its laser light source, UHD compatability with full DCI coverage it is a nice option for people who don't need the lumens, and who find many things to like with the laser light source (like me).

zombie10k 09-14-2016 05:53 AM

Thanks for the info Rick.

That basically guarantees no update to the LS10K. It would have been nice if they just updated it for the BT2020->P3 mapping for UHD SDR WCG.

The relatively low lumen output doesn't make much sense for HDR but UHD SDR WCG is going to look excellent if it's anything like we are experiencing on the JVC's.

Mike Garrett 09-14-2016 06:05 AM

I was hoping for a lumen increase, but the spec is the same 1,500 lumens as last year. :(

kohe321 09-14-2016 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombie10k (Post 46778049)
Thanks for the info Rick.

That basically guarantees no update to the LS10K. It would have been nice if they just updated it for the BT2020->P3 mapping for UHD SDR WCG.

The relatively low lumen output doesn't make much sense for HDR but UHD SDR WCG is going to look excellent if it's anything like we are experiencing on the JVC's.

Yeah, it's a shame the LS10000 technically has the capability to show the DCI P3 gamut but can't practically be made to show it, unless you have an expensive external video processor that is.

Do you know how well the HDR adjustment settings they introduced for the 5040 works? I remember reading that it had some preset options like "HDR1, HDR2" that aimed to make up for discrepancies in how many nits the disc was mastered for? I don't know nearly enough about this, but if they have a good system for making HDR look better with projectors, sort of like how Sony introduced that HDR slider in the new 550es, then that could be exciting. :)

darrellh44 09-14-2016 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kohe321 (Post 46778345)
Yeah, it's a shame the LS10000 technically has the capability to show the DCI P3 gamut but can't practically be made to show it, unless you have an expensive external video processor that is.

I'm trying to catch up on the LS10000 WCG chase. So even though it's been demonstrated that the LS10000 can accept a 1080p BT.2020 input and display something using its WCG, you're saying it will never be color accurate without a processor with 3D LUT? Has the HDFury Linker been ruled out as being able to provide a proper conversion?

DavidHir 09-14-2016 06:58 AM

I'm a little disappointed with this announcement based on what we know and its price. I was hoping for improved native contrast and there are no signs of that. True, there may be a lens improvement given what Epson did with the LCD models and there are hints of it in the press release (High-Performance Pro Cinema Lens). Hopefully they improved the e-shift functionality to make it at least on par with JVC. I too wonder if watching rec 2020 on UHD BDs is now possible. The HDR factor seems relatively unimportant for front projection at this point and more marketing really.

It seems to me the RS500 is still the projector to get for the money especially as the reports indicate the new lamp is even more stable compared to prior models.

zombie10k 09-14-2016 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett (Post 46778281)
I was hoping for a lumen increase, but the spec is the same 1,500 lumens as last year. :(

Mike, at Cedia, can you please find out if the LS10500 and 5040/6040's are 10.2Gpbs vs 18Gpbs? thanks!!

Mike Garrett 09-14-2016 07:48 AM

Yep. Already have that down to ask. Also going to ask regarding the Sony VW550, since I am hearing it is not full 18Gbps spec.

zombie10k 09-14-2016 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidHir (Post 46779345)
I'm a little disappointed with this announcement based on what we know and its price. I was hoping for improved native contrast and there are no signs of that. True, there may be a lens improvement given what Epson did with the LCD models and there are hints of it in the press release (High-Performance Pro Cinema Lens). Hopefully they improved the e-shift functionality to make it at least on par with JVC. I too wonder if watching rec 2020 on UHD BDs is now possible. The HDR factor seems relatively unimportant for front projection at this point and more marketing really.

It seems to me the RS500 is still the projector to get for the money especially as the reports indicate the new lamp is even more stable compared to prior models.


The big deal for the new 10500 owners is going to be the UHD + HDfury combo for UHD SDR WCG. I was floored when I saw this set up properly the first time on the RS600.

kohe321 - from the polish review of the 5040, it looks like HDR1 clips whites hard and HDR2 is better here but obscures shadow details.

kohe321 09-14-2016 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrellh44 (Post 46779185)
I'm trying to catch up on the LS10000 WCG chase. So even though it's been demonstrated that the LS10000 can accept a 1080p BT.2020 input and display something using its WCG, you're saying it will never be color accurate without a processor with 3D LUT? Has the HDFury Linker been ruled out as being able to provide a proper conversion?

I am still eagerly wating to read more about what the LS10000 can do together with the new HDFury Linker, but I'm not very optimistic that it will be able to properly map the color points and give an accurate and properly saturated picture. Crossing my fingers that it somehow works, though!

The UHD SDR WCG combo you would get with a HDFury might be what pushes me into upgrading to the LS10500 if it turns out that it won't be doable on the LS10000 without a 3d LUT processor. The better lens and e-shift would be a great bonus as well. :)

Paul Sim 09-14-2016 09:00 AM

It looks to me like the LS10000 with new HDMI board for HDR WCG etc.

Paul H

Mike Garrett 09-14-2016 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Sim (Post 46782377)
It looks to me like the LS10000 with new HDMI board for HDR WCG etc.

Paul H

I agree.

kohe321 09-14-2016 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Sim (Post 46782377)
It looks to me like the LS10000 with new HDMI board for HDR WCG etc.

Paul H

And probably a new lens and new e-shift as well. :)

Paul Sim 09-14-2016 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kohe321 (Post 46782817)
And probably a new lens and new e-shift as well. :)

Lets hope so:) Unfortunately, I'm fast coming to the conclusion that UHD HDR 4K projector viewing is a rich mans game at the moment requiring the heavy duty lumens of a JVC or Sony laser projector to get anywhere near the required brightness for projection systems:(

Mike Garrett 09-14-2016 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kohe321 (Post 46782817)
And probably a new lens and new e-shift as well. :)

I will be shocked if it has a new lens. I would be willing to bet that it has the same lens as the LS10000. I see no reason that Epson would change it. It is not like people complained about the lens.

kohe321 09-14-2016 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett (Post 46783465)
I will be shocked if it has a new lens. I would be willing to bet that it has the same lens as the LS10000. I see no reason that Epson would change it. It is not like people complained about the lens.

I'm not talking about a drastically new lens revision, but rather the same lens that's in the new 5040, which I understand is a slightly updated version of the Fujinon lens that's in the current LS10000. If they have improved it and the 5040 is using it, it makes no sense not to give their new flagship the same treatment.

And yeah, the lens in the LS10000 is already great so it would just be icing on the cake. :)

By the way, this might just be completely unrealistic dreaming, but do we know for sure that the panels have not been updated in any way and are identical to the ones in the LS10000? Sure they are still 1080p, but is it possible they could've made some tweaks to them, improving the contrast performance for instance?

I guess the updated lens could improve intrascene contrast a bit.

Mike Garrett 09-14-2016 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kohe321 (Post 46783737)
I'm not talking about a drastically new lens revision, but rather the same lens that's in the new 5040, which I understand is a slightly updated version of the Fujinon lens that's in the current LS10000. If they have improved it and the 5040 is using it, it makes no sense not to give their new flagship the same treatment.

And yeah, the lens in the LS10000 is already great so it would just be icing on the cake. :)

By the way, this might just be completely unrealistic dreaming, but do we know for sure that the panels have not been updated in any way and are identical to the ones in the LS10000? Sure they are still 1080p, but is it possible they could've made some tweaks to them, improving the contrast performance for instance?

I guess the updated lens could improve intrascene contrast a bit.

Can't be the same panels. The LS10000 is different technology. LS is reflective Quartz and the 5040 is LCD.

kohe321 09-14-2016 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett (Post 46788113)
Can't be the same panels. The LS10000 is different technology. LS is reflective Quartz and the 5040 is LCD.

I think you misunderstood my post, I'm not talking about the 5040, I am wondering if the new LS10500 is still using the same LCoQ panels that is in the LS10000. It would be interesting to get confirmation on whether or not they have done any tweaks or updates to the panels, or if they are continuing to use the panels from the LS10000 in the LS10500. I haven't read anything on this yet, though it seems people are assuming the panels are unchanged since there is no explicit info saying otherwise.

It would be great if there was some upgrade done to the reflective panels in the LS10500, for example a bump in contrast performance. :)

DavidHir 09-14-2016 12:46 PM

My guess is something in Epson's press release would have indicated an updated panel if that were indeed the case.

Mike Garrett 09-14-2016 12:46 PM

I think very little has been done to the replacement, but will confirm tomorrow. I am guessing Rec2020 support and HDR.

kohe321 09-14-2016 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidHir (Post 46788409)
My guess is something in Epson's press release would have indicated an updated panel if that were indeed the case.

Yeah, that's my guess as well. I just find it a little strange to leave the panels completely unchanged from 2014 in a new flagship released at the end of 2016. I'm still relatively new to the world of projectors, so this glacial speed of product updates might be more normal than I first thought, but it just seems a bit odd to not at least do a small update after all this time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett (Post 46788417)
I think very little has been done to the replacement, but will confirm tomorrow. I am guessing Rec2020 support and HDR.

Great! Will be interesting to get some solid information. :)

Ruined 09-15-2016 09:47 AM

Any word if input lag has improved to the 30ms offered by the 5040ub? Ls10000 was 50ms.

Woof Woof 09-15-2016 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett (Post 46788417)
I think very little has been done to the replacement, but will confirm tomorrow. I am guessing Rec2020 support and HDR.



Thanks Mike.

I'm hoping the tweaks they make will give the poor cousins as AVS a chance at a decent projector for UHD playback on a laser light source without the need to sell a kidney [emoji51]

Mike Garrett 09-15-2016 06:19 PM

If wanting HDR, you use HDMI input #1 on the LS10500. Very little else is changed, other than it not has HDR capability and I believe DCI color space. Person giving the demo could not answer many of our questions.

Added
I think you will have to wait until next year or the year after, if looking for major changes.

Craig Peer 09-15-2016 07:27 PM

https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net...5c&oe=5874D287

I thought this new Epson threw a nice picture, although we are at their mercy as far as what demo clips are shown.

jamesmil 09-15-2016 10:45 PM

I don't suppose reps at CEDIA talked about the option for a LS10000 update, even if it meant a service call/board replacement?

Woof Woof 09-15-2016 11:17 PM

So is it 18Gbps on HDMI1?

They mention HDR but no mention if it takes in BT2020 color space needed for UHD BD playback.

Did they play any UHD BD discs in WCG/HDR modes?

Bandyka 09-15-2016 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woof Woof (Post 46826185)
So is it 18Gbps on HDMI1?

They mention HDR but no mention if it takes in BT2020 color space needed for UHD BD playback.

Did they play any UHD BD discs in WCG/HDR modes?

This is what I want to know as well! I really like this PJ otherwise.

darrellh44 09-16-2016 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett (Post 46788417)
I think very little has been done to the replacement, but will confirm tomorrow. I am guessing Rec2020 support and HDR.

Good luck on getting any reliable information from the Epson reps at CEDIA. I was there yesterday and asked two different reps what new hardware changes were made to the LS10500 vs the LS10000. One said there weren't any hardware changes, just software updates to add HDR. The other one said the only hardware change was a new HDMI chipset to allow the added UHD features along with eshifted 4K. When I asked the second one if the new HDMI chips supported 18.2 Gbps, he didn't know.

I then tried to find out if there were any planned updates to support accurate BT2020 mapping for my LS10000. I talked to three different product managers. Their responses ranged from "never", to "maybe we're looking at it", to the "LS10000 is BT2020 accurate now" (and apparently always had been). When I pressed the third guy, Rodrigo I believe his name was, he also mentioned there had been some discussions about offering LS10000 owners an upgrade deal to the LS10500 to address the concerns of owners that are "in the same boat that I'm in", but Epson decided against it. Wait, what??? You just told me there was no problem with the LS10000's BT2020. What boat am I in then with the other LS10000 owners?

I've been chasing the BT2020 issue with Epson for nearly 6 months now. I got pretty much the exact same runaround at CEDIA yesterday, but it only took 15 minutes this time. At this point I'm pretty much done with Epson. I'm very much hoping that JVC comes out with a laser/phospher version of their current 1080p eshift projectors for under $10k in the next year or two.


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