The Official Sony VPL-VW550ES/ VPL-VW675ES Owners Thread - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1561 of 2056 Old 10-12-2017, 06:31 AM
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As a VW675ES owner on 5.002 with everything working well, is there any reason to upgrade or should I not open pandora's box?
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post #1562 of 2056 Old 10-12-2017, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I would not recommend a white 1.0 gain screen in a room like you describe. When you get a batcave there is nothing better than a 1.0 gain matte screen in my eyes, and the Studiotek 100 is the reference. I will get a Studiotek 100 one day, but when I could get a Elunevision for 1:3 of the price I opted for it. I am not 100% satisfied with the Elunevision as it has some minor uniformity issues, but around 90% satisfied is ok for the price I payed.
Sorry to quote you here, but you don't accept PM's lol. Just curious what screen you had before the Elunevision? I'm looking to get this screen as I am seriously sensitive to screen texture and uniformity issues. What "minor uniformity issues" were you experiencing? Thanks!
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post #1563 of 2056 Old 10-12-2017, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CollectedDust View Post
As a VW675ES owner on 5.002 with everything working well, is there any reason to upgrade or should I not open pandora's box?
I'm upgrading to the VW885 but certainly not because the VW675 did not do a fantastic job. The VW885 has been calibrated in a show in Denmark , results have it 1800 after calibration. Many are already saying the
brightness is over the 2000 ANSI, that would certainly indicate so . I figure the difference is going to be around 400 lumens give or take with the possibly of more once the finished unit arrives .Considering the VW675
will drop 20% in the first 200 hours, around 25% by the 1000 hour mark puts the the calibrated in the 1200 range, a 400 delta is certainly reasonable . My goal was to keep the same size screen but to lower the gain and
use a material closer to reference .Currently considering the Stewart ST130 which is a little compromise yet still considered near reference . I may actually drop the size of my screen one level to additionally compensate.

Except for more brightness and better blacks during fades ( if that matters to you ) the VW675 will still yield a stunning image on the appropriate screen size . If I wasn't building a new theater and changing everything
around I may not have even considered the change . Looks as though my current theater will stay intact for the new owner which works out well for my progression. I also had a problem with the board controlling my
lamp , which was going to take some time to fix . I managed to work out a fantastic credit towards a new projector ( basically an upgrade) seamlessly, so I jumped at that chance.

Bottom line the VW675 is an amazing projector that has more than what it takes for the average home theater and deliver true 4K native with the quality , stability and motion control that only projectors 3 times more
can marginally better. Actually, now have to include the VW885 which is 1.5 times the cost . It's ability to upscale 1080 to 4K is second to none and don't forget that FI on 4K material is possible through the upscale
process using a 1080 disc . If the original was mastered in 4K the up-scaled version is nearly identical and FI can be used even on 3D content .

Unless you are increasing screen size or if you are marginal now for brightness then you might as well stick it out. Now, if you have that itch to change and you are ready, that is a different story .

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post #1564 of 2056 Old 10-12-2017, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post
Sorry to quote you here, but you don't accept PM's lol. Just curious what screen you had before the Elunevision? I'm looking to get this screen as I am seriously sensitive to screen texture and uniformity issues. What "minor uniformity issues" were you experiencing? Thanks!
Andreas is no longer a member . Better to take these questions to the screen threads, there may be a thread dedicated to the Elune Vision .

I think he summed it up pretty much though. 1/3rd the cost and he guessed 90% performance. If you consider yourself someone that wants the ulitmate performance and are willing to pay
three times the price, other screens may have have a edge .

Unless you are looking at a blank uniformity test screen you will likely never see the difference , especially on dynamic content. You may be able to reveal slight uniformity issues
on a test screen , good luck every seeing differences with actual content .

Elune Screens are really good for the price, but not the "very" best you can buy.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CollectedDust View Post
As a VW675ES owner on 5.002 with everything working well, is there any reason to upgrade or should I not open pandora's box?

I agree, the only other "affordable" Sony anywhere near the 675 and considered to be worth the upgrade to me would be the 885ES. Depending on how much you can get it for, then the B-Stock JVC RS4500 from @Mike Garrett and @Craig Peer could be another option.
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I agree, the only other "affordable" Sony anywhere near the 675 and considered to be worth the upgrade to me would be the 885ES. Depending on how much you can get it for, then the B-Stock JVC RS4500 from @Mike Garrett and @Craig Peer could be another option.
I think the op was asking if he should upgrade his firmware to the new version. I'm curious if it's worth it as well....

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post #1567 of 2056 Old 10-12-2017, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Garth Jacobsen View Post
I think the op was asking if he should upgrade his firmware to the new version. I'm curious if it's worth it as well....

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Oh duh! Thanks for clarifying Garth!
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Oh duh! Thanks for clarifying Garth!
Well I certainly wouldn't update the firmware if you dont need to. Purchasing and plugging in a RS-232C null-modem cable is a huge PITA. Oh wait...it's not Sony that makes you do that...
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post #1569 of 2056 Old 10-13-2017, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garth Jacobsen View Post
I think the op was asking if he should upgrade his firmware to the new version. I'm curious if it's worth it as well....

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Hi there.

From what I can see 5.003 only adds some chroma and HDR info to the Details page and adds HLG (plus auto detect) support. As it doesn't seem to detract or add new issues (or fix old ones ) why not go for it?

I sincerely hope this isn't the last firmware for this unit as it needs just one more.......
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post #1570 of 2056 Old 10-13-2017, 02:47 PM
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In case anyone is interested here is an example of the 4K 60p 4:2:0 HDR banding on my 550 ES in all its glory.

First pic with HDR on the projector 'off' and the second is the same frame but with it 'on'.

The issue does exist and if you are a potential buyer you owe it to yourself to ask the question as to whether it will bother you, preferably before you buy.

I have been in contact with Sony for months about this (and now my dealer) but nothing concrete has yet been forthcoming. Fingers crossed it is being worked on to resolution.

Cheers.
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The Official Sony VPL-VW550ES/ VPL-VW675ES Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
In case anyone is interested here is an example of the 4K 60p 4:2:0 HDR banding on my 550 ES in all its glory.



First pic with HDR on the projector 'off' and the second is the same frame but with it 'on'.



The issue does exist and if you are a potential buyer you owe it to yourself to ask the question as to whether it will bother you, preferably before you buy.



I have been in contact with Sony for months about this (and now my dealer) but nothing concrete has yet been forthcoming. Fingers crossed it is being worked on to resolution.



Cheers.

Something isn't right because the images of the UB900's menu shows that it's still sending the HDR signal. Just because you turn the mode "OFF" in the projector, it doesn't mean the player stops sending the HDR signal. You'd need something like the HDFury devices to actually trick the player into stripping the HDR and sending SDR WCG.

Do you have one of these in the chain? If not, you're basically just doing something similar to what I do for what I call my "HarperVision" settings where you send the full HDR signal, switch the display into SDR mode (while keeping the HDR signal coming into the projector) and then change a bunch of settings in the projector, especially gamma, to look proper (and better than straight HDR in my humble opinion) again. How does the image look when you watch it for awhile in this mode? Now I'm really curious to get a VW385ES and mess with this myself.

See the links below my signature for details. If I'm missing something please let me know.
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post #1572 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 01:50 AM
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Hi guys,
Just got my brand new 550ES. Out the box no calibration already I'm very impressed with picture and color quality. Amazing! First disc I pop in was Planet II documentary on 4k, wow! Indeed this is an excellent PJ.
I don't know if u guys believe or heard of this - for the first 100hrs to use on high lamp to avoid flickering on future use on low lamp?
Is this true? I did this on my previous 320ES and no flickering on low lamp and used it till about 1400 hrs.

Next question, have anybody update the new firmware 5.003? Is it safe to update?

sony vpl-vw760es/screen innovation 5 series zero edge AT 150" 2.35:1, Denon avrx7200wa, Emotiva XPA-7 gen3, Oppo udp-203, ps4 pro, apple tv 4K, M&K S150MKII LCR, M&K S150T, goldenears invisa htr7000, goldenears invisa 525, M&K V12 sub x 2, crestron cp3, wireworld starlight 7, wireworld ultraviolet 7 hdmi, wireworld luna pro speaker cable, shunyata ps8 power distributor, shunyata venom hc mains.
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post #1573 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Something isn't right because the images of the UB900's menu shows that it's still sending the HDR signal. Just because you turn the mode "OFF" in the projector, it doesn't mean the player stops sending the HDR signal. You'd need something like the HDFury devices to actually trick the player into stripping the HDR and sending SDR WCG.

Do you have one of these in the chain? If not, you're basically just doing something similar to what I do for what I call my "HarperVision" settings where you send the full HDR signal, switch the display into SDR mode (while keeping the HDR signal coming into the projector) and then change a bunch of settings in the projector, especially gamma, to look proper (and better than straight HDR in my humble opinion) again. How does the image look when you watch it for awhile in this mode? Now I'm really curious to get a VW385ES and mess with this myself.

See the links below my signature for details. If I'm missing something please let me know.
Simply, one picture is with HDR off, on the projector and the other is with it on.

Turn HDR off on the projector and it still accepts BT2020 etc, and it itself has removed the HDR aspect from the picture. But, it washes the picture out as it then uses a much different gamma setting to show the image. The image is smooth and watchable but contrast levels are much lower.

I am not going to argue the minutiae of what should or should not be in the chain, and I don't want to (nor should I have to) add multiple doohickeys into the video chain to get the image that was promised by the marketing.
Suffice to say I have been through every damn setting I can think of between my players and the projector (including direct connection) and the findings are plain. With HDR on at 4K60P 4:2:0 10/12bit, there WILL be horrible banding in large areas of similar colour. It doesn't go away unless HDR is off on the 550.

Sony says this about the VPL-VW550ES on their website:

Future-proofed support for latest standards
The VPL-VW550ES can project content at up to 60 frames per second (fps) in 4K (at colour signal YCbCr 4:2:0 / 10 bit) for even smoother images with superior colour and realism. Support for HDCP 2.2 lets you enjoy the latest 4K content services.

I fell for that (particularly the parts in bold) and in the main it is true, but on one crucial mode, (arguably the most intensive 'headline' mode) it fails miserably to fulfil that marketing blurb.

People need to see it so they can decide if it bothers them or not and perhaps save themselves some cash. I wish someone had given me a heads and I would have waited a little longer and saved my cash for something that didn't have this issue.
I have had many, many Sony products over the years and they have always been at the top of the game but more recently they seem to be taking people for mugs with specs and last years tech for loads of money and that is probably why I am so pissed.
I feel massively let down by a company I have spend LOADS of money with in the past and in hindsight was probably why I took them at their word.

More fool me.

Cheers.
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post #1574 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundsgoodrecord View Post
Hi guys,
Just got my brand new 550ES. Out the box no calibration already I'm very impressed with picture and color quality. Amazing! First disc I pop in was Planet II documentary on 4k, wow! Indeed this is an excellent PJ.

Yes it is!

I don't know if u guys believe or heard of this - for the first 100hrs to use on high lamp to avoid flickering on future use on low lamp?
Is this true? I did this on my previous 320ES and no flickering on low lamp and used it till about 1400 hrs.

I wish someone had told me of this! Where does it say that? The flickering is a big distraction. I have logged my flickering with Sony but they just told me 'it will go away and is normal operation'.

Next question, have anybody update the new firmware 5.003? Is it safe to update?
Yup, new firmware adds some useful info to the details screen (although omits colour depth for 'some reason', although I can guess why and which I have requested for the next firmware) and auto HLG HDR switching and support. Doesn't fix any reported issues however.

Safe to do if you follow the instructions on the Sony Site.

Cheers.
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post #1575 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundsgoodrecord View Post
Hi guys,
Just got my brand new 550ES. Out the box no calibration already I'm very impressed with picture and color quality. Amazing! First disc I pop in was Planet II documentary on 4k, wow! Indeed this is an excellent PJ.
I don't know if u guys believe or heard of this - for the first 100hrs to use on high lamp to avoid flickering on future use on low lamp?
Is this true? I did this on my previous 320ES and no flickering on low lamp and used it till about 1400 hrs.

Next question, have anybody update the new firmware 5.003? Is it safe to update?
Yes, it's safe to update and the operation is very simple. I have had no issues since installing the update on my 550.

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post #1576 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 05:32 AM
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Yes, it's safe to update and the operation is very simple. I have had no issues since installing the update on my 550.

Hey BakeApples, haven't seen you around for a while . I never did get to the firmware upgrade, my projector is gone, the VW885( aka VW760) on the way .


I know you contemplated the switch, will let you know what the differences are once I get this dialed in . Scheduled to arrive early November , will be mid
November for sure before I will have it mounted and setup .

Dedicated Theater: Sony VPL VW5000 , Panamorph DCR & ISCO III L Anamorphic Lens, Draper TecVision XT1800X Screen, 2.40:1 134" diagonal curved , Denon AVR-X8500 , 9.2.6 Atmos, Panasonic UB900, Oppo 203, Lumagen Pro 4440 , (3) Paradigm CI Elite E7-L+C+R fronts, , (2) CI Pro P80-IW Rear, (2) Paradigm SA-ADP In-wall Surround, (6) SIG-1.5R-30 v.3 In-Ceiling, Subwoofers: (2) SVS SB-16 Ultra , (1) SVS PC13-Ultra .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
In case anyone is interested here is an example of the 4K 60p 4:2:0 HDR banding on my 550 ES in all its glory.



First pic with HDR on the projector 'off' and the second is the same frame but with it 'on'.



The issue does exist and if you are a potential buyer you owe it to yourself to ask the question as to whether it will bother you, preferably before you buy.



I have been in contact with Sony for months about this (and now my dealer) but nothing concrete has yet been forthcoming. Fingers crossed it is being worked on to resolution.



Cheers.


You're taking in a 24p image and forcing it to 60p. Have you tried taking in and actual 60p disc like Billy Lynns Halftime Show and seeing what it does? Just curious.


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post #1578 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jelby1216 View Post
You're taking in a 24p image and forcing it to 60p. Have you tried taking in and actual 60p disc like Billy Lynns Halftime Show and seeing what it does? Just curious.


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Indeed I am (I have liked watching movies at 60hz for years as the movement is better and you minimise FI on the display device) and yes I have.

The fact you can make banding happen on any UHD BR if you go to HDR 50/60hz shows the projector is incapable (as it is now) of correctly processing low resolution colour (4:2:0) up to the full RGB need to display on screen. (Even 4:4:4 needs to be converted to RGB to display BTW).
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post #1579 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Hey BakeApples, haven't seen you around for a while . I never did get to the firmware upgrade, my projector is gone, the VW885( aka VW760) on the way .

I know you contemplated the switch, will let you know what the differences are once I get this dialed in . Scheduled to arrive early November , will be mid
November for sure before I will have it mounted and setup .
Yes, i contemplated a switch but have decided to keep the 550 for another year, maybe even longer than that. Depends on what happens next year with Sony pjs and right now, the 550 throws a beautiful image on my modest 116" scope screen. For this screen size, i really don`t feel that the upgrade to the 760 is justified only for the extra light. If i decide to go with a larger screen ahead, then i will be more motivated to do a pj upgrade but for now, the 550 is perfect I am still amazed with how good the image looks everytime i sit down and watch a movie. The sharpness, depth, calmness, contrast and motion results in a image that is very difficult to beat for this type of money.

I am still very curious about the 760 though and i am looking forward to hear about your impressions once you get it. I think it`s going to be a killer projector
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Simply, one picture is with HDR off, on the projector and the other is with it on.



Turn HDR off on the projector and it still accepts BT2020 etc, and it itself has removed the HDR aspect from the picture. But, it washes the picture out as it then uses a much different gamma setting to show the image. The image is smooth and watchable but contrast levels are much lower.



I am not going to argue the minutiae of what should or should not be in the chain, and I don't want to (nor should I have to) add multiple doohickeys into the video chain to get the image that was promised by the marketing.

Suffice to say I have been through every damn setting I can think of between my players and the projector (including direct connection) and the findings are plain. With HDR on at 4K60P 4:2:0 10/12bit, there WILL be horrible banding in large areas of similar colour. It doesn't go away unless HDR is off on the 550.



Sony says this about the VPL-VW550ES on their website:



Future-proofed support for latest standards

The VPL-VW550ES can project content at up to 60 frames per second (fps) in 4K (at colour signal YCbCr 4:2:0 / 10 bit) for even smoother images with superior colour and realism. Support for HDCP 2.2 lets you enjoy the latest 4K content services.



I fell for that (particularly the parts in bold) and in the main it is true, but on one crucial mode, (arguably the most intensive 'headline' mode) it fails miserably to fulfil that marketing blurb.



People need to see it so they can decide if it bothers them or not and perhaps save themselves some cash. I wish someone had given me a heads and I would have waited a little longer and saved my cash for something that didn't have this issue.

I have had many, many Sony products over the years and they have always been at the top of the game but more recently they seem to be taking people for mugs with specs and last years tech for loads of money and that is probably why I am so pissed.

I feel massively let down by a company I have spend LOADS of money with in the past and in hindsight was probably why I took them at their word.



More fool me.



Cheers.

Switching HDR off in the projector doesn't remove anything from the signal. That's my point. The signal coming in is still exactly the same. You're just switching the way the projector treats the signal with its settings, most likely the curious S gamma curve that @zombie10k was referring to elsewhere. That is what is broken, I agree.

Just know that you are not stripping HDR from the signal in the least. It's still a full HDR signal being accepted by the projector with no banding when it happens to be put in a different display mode.

I'm now curious to get one myself and try my HarperVision on it to see if the banding goes away since I use SDR mode while feeding it HDR. You can try that too, BTW. With the Sony you don't need any "extra doohickeys".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Indeed I am (I have liked watching movies at 60hz for years as the movement is better and you minimise FI on the display device) and yes I have.



The fact you can make banding happen on any UHD BR if you go to HDR 50/60hz shows the projector is incapable (as it is now) of correctly processing low resolution colour (4:2:0) up to the full RGB need to display on screen. (Even 4:4:4 needs to be converted to RGB to display BTW).

I don't think that's the issue though. You clearly showed that you're sending in the exact same signal and just turning off the HDR mode in the projector and then it's fine, so that says to me that ONLY the HDR mode in the projector is faulty. The signal, even when HDR is off, is still 4:2:0 and still has to be converted to RGB.
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post #1581 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 07:00 PM
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Switching HDR off in the projector doesn't remove anything from the signal. That's my point. The signal coming in is still exactly the same. You're just switching the way the projector treats the signal with its settings, most likely the curious S gamma curve that @zombie10k was referring to elsewhere. That is what is broken, I agree.

Just know that you are not stripping HDR from the signal in the least. It's still a full HDR signal being accepted by the projector with no banding when it happens to be put in a different display mode.

I'm now curious to get one myself and try my HarperVision on it to see if the banding goes away since I use SDR mode while feeding it HDR. You can try that too, BTW. With the Sony you don't need any "extra doohickeys".




I don't think that's the issue though. You clearly showed that you're sending in the exact same signal and just turning off the HDR mode in the projector and then it's fine, so that says to me that ONLY the HDR mode in the projector is faulty. The signal, even when HDR is off, is still 4:2:0 and still has to be converted to RGB.
Sorry yes I should have specified HDR mode at 4:2:0 for the sake of clarity and I also agree that the gamma/pq settings on HDR @60hz is what is broken and needs sorting. (Please Sony, if you would be so kind.....)
Apologies for the omission.

If there is some way I can get this projector to accept an HDR signal at the 60hz frame rate with no banding, no extra expenditure or need to change the settings once assigned to one of the inputs and with equal image quality to other modes, I would be happy that HDR is just accepted and displayed in a natural way. Regardless of if it actually looked HDR'y or not tbh. Especially as these projection devices can never truly do it justice anyway. The 550 has enough contrast to make a good fist of it though. ☺️
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post #1582 of 2056 Old 10-14-2017, 10:39 PM
 
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The Official Sony VPL-VW550ES/ VPL-VW675ES Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Sorry yes I should have specified HDR mode at 4:2:0 for the sake of clarity and I also agree that the gamma/pq settings on HDR @60hz is what is broken and needs sorting. (Please Sony, if you would be so kind.....)

Apologies for the omission.



If there is some way I can get this projector to accept an HDR signal at the 60hz frame rate with no banding, no extra expenditure or need to change the settings once assigned to one of the inputs and with equal image quality to other modes, I would be happy that HDR is just accepted and displayed in a natural way. Regardless of if it actually looked HDR'y or not tbh. Especially as these projection devices can never truly do it justice anyway. The 550 has enough contrast to make a good fist of it though.

Well like I said, you can do like I do for HarperVision and turn HDR off (making it SDR processing, gamma, etc) and then adjust settings, sometime to the extreme, to get the picture back into a great, accurate, amazing image like I do. For the Sonys you need the Image Director software though, unlike the Epsons that have custom gamma adjustments built into the main menu.

No extra doohickeys required, like I said.

Click the link in my signature for HarperVision on the Epson 5040UB and you'll get the gist of it. Only thing I forgot to log and didn't get posted were the CMS numbers, which made it even better.
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post #1583 of 2056 Old 10-15-2017, 02:59 AM
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Well like I said, you can do like I do for HarperVision and turn HDR off (making it SDR processing, gamma, etc) and then adjust settings, sometime to the extreme, to get the picture back into a great, accurate, amazing image like I do. For the Sonys you need the Image Director software though, unlike the Epsons that have custom gamma adjustments built into the main menu.

No extra doohickeys required, like I said.

Click the link in my signature for HarperVision on the Epson 5040UB and you'll get the gist of it. Only thing I forgot to log and didn't get posted were the CMS numbers, which made it even better.
Thanks for the info. I will have a look. HDR mode isn't broken when watching at frame rates under 50hz so there is definitely a link between the gamma/pq curve used and the signal being at 4:2:0. Which is why logically I think that if the HDMI interface was full fat and a 60hz HDR signal could be sent at 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, the capability of the projectors low res chroma upsampling and associated deficiencies thereby, would never see the light of day.
I have decided to get my unit professionally calibrated in a couple of weeks too and will report back on any differences, if any. ☺️
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post #1584 of 2056 Old 10-15-2017, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Thanks for the info. I will have a look. HDR mode isn't broken when watching at frame rates under 50hz so there is definitely a link between the gamma/pq curve used and the signal being at 4:2:0. Which is why logically I think that if the HDMI interface was full fat and a 60hz HDR signal could be sent at 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, the capability of the projectors low res chroma upsampling and associated deficiencies thereby, would never see the light of day.
I have decided to get my unit professionally calibrated in a couple of weeks too and will report back on any differences, if any. ☺️
I don't think the issue has anything to do with the HDMI bandwidth.

Ekki tested using a device to send [email protected] 4:2:0 SDR with WCG BT2020 and guess what, No Banding. So how can it be a band width issue when this signal takes the identical amount of bandwidth to transmit to the projector.

The issue is definitely how Sony is implementing HDR with the 4:2:0 60p signal. This should be correctable with a firmware update. Hopefully Sony is listening. I doubt if they are receiving many formal complaints because [email protected] HDR10 is a niche segment of an already niche market.
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post #1585 of 2056 Old 10-15-2017, 11:18 AM
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I don't think the issue has anything to do with the HDMI bandwidth.
Not in and of itself, no it isn't, but the only signal with HDR that you can send to these projectors at 50/60hz in 10 or 12bit is a 4:2:0 one due to, yup, limited bandwidth.

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Ekki tested using a device to send [email protected] 4:2:0 SDR with WCG BT2020 and guess what, No Banding. So how can it be a band width issue when this signal takes the identical amount of bandwidth to transmit to the projector.
That is what I showed too with my x-men stills. It can be attributed to lack of bandwidth simply because, a higher bandwidth would allow the source (Oppo or Panny in my case both with fantastic VPUs) to up-sample the chroma from 4:2:0 10 bit HDR to 4:2:2 12bit HDR, instead of only being able to send the fully compressed signal and have the crappy rendition the projector provides from 4:2:0 10bit HDR to RGB. These devices have been shown to do a superb job of the final up-sampling of a 4:2:2 12 bit HDR signal to RGB. Just look at a 24hz HDR UHD bluray! Lovely gradients.

How the projector handles full level up-sampling of HDR chroma is something that is related but seperate and what I am hoping Sony can, and will fix with an update or two. I mean even if it took a couple of attempts I wouldn't mind because at least they would be trying and I wouldn't have that horrible abandoned feeling I sort of do at the moment.

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The issue is definitely how Sony is implementing HDR with the 4:2:0 60p signal. This should be correctable with a firmware update. Hopefully Sony is listening. I doubt if they are receiving many formal complaints because [email protected] HDR10 is a niche segment of an already niche market.
I also think the gamma/pq curve used is waaaay off and the VPU cannot do much with the all the effort of up-sampling the 4:2:0 picture to RGB without horrible artifacts and the HDR gamma/pq curve in tow.
Give it the SDR gamma and the issue is basically non existent.
So to me, if they update the firmware to use a different gamma/pq curve that prioritises picture quality over simply trying to artificially wow with HDR for the signal, and provided the VPU is actually up to it, then they could sort this problem that is totally of their own making, for basically promising too much for the hardware installed just to get a spec on the sheet that is deemed as 'futureproof'.

It doesn't matter if it is considered niche, they included it in their product features and specs and sort of said , 'hey your new 10 grand projector is future proof with this new fangled 60hz HDR video mode and it will be so smooth and realistic'.

It simply is not at all like that description at all and that is what wrangles. If they had said something like, i don't know, um... 'we have included a future mode for the sake of ability to display and not leaving you completely in the lurch with current games and streaming and also future UHD blurays, but the image quality is not as good as the rest but that is down to a limitation in video bandwidth we are afraid'..... then it would have been easier to swallow.

But the fact they have described this very mode as smooth and realistic just smacks of ,well, complete inaccuracy.
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post #1586 of 2056 Old 10-15-2017, 04:50 PM
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Not in and of itself, no it isn't, but the only signal with HDR that you can send to these projectors at 50/60hz in 10 or 12bit is a 4:2:0 one due to, yup, limited bandwidth.



That is what I showed too with my x-men stills. It can be attributed to lack of bandwidth simply because, a higher bandwidth would allow the source (Oppo or Panny in my case both with fantastic VPUs) to up-sample the chroma from 4:2:0 10 bit HDR to 4:2:2 12bit HDR, instead of only being able to send the fully compressed signal and have the crappy rendition the projector provides from 4:2:0 10bit HDR to RGB. These devices have been shown to do a superb job of the final up-sampling of a 4:2:2 12 bit HDR signal to RGB. Just look at a 24hz HDR UHD bluray! Lovely gradients.

How the projector handles full level up-sampling of HDR chroma is something that is related but seperate and what I am hoping Sony can, and will fix with an update or two. I mean even if it took a couple of attempts I wouldn't mind because at least they would be trying and I wouldn't have that horrible abandoned feeling I sort of do at the moment.



I also think the gamma/pq curve used is waaaay off and the VPU cannot do much with the all the effort of up-sampling the 4:2:0 picture to RGB without horrible artifacts and the HDR gamma/pq curve in tow.
Give it the SDR gamma and the issue is basically non existent.
So to me, if they update the firmware to use a different gamma/pq curve that prioritises picture quality over simply trying to artificially wow with HDR for the signal, and provided the VPU is actually up to it, then they could sort this problem that is totally of their own making, for basically promising too much for the hardware installed just to get a spec on the sheet that is deemed as 'futureproof'.

It doesn't matter if it is considered niche, they included it in their product features and specs and sort of said , 'hey your new 10 grand projector is future proof with this new fangled 60hz HDR video mode and it will be so smooth and realistic'.

It simply is not at all like that description at all and that is what wrangles. If they had said something like, i don't know, um... 'we have included a future mode for the sake of ability to display and not leaving you completely in the lurch with current games and streaming and also future UHD blurays, but the image quality is not as good as the rest but that is down to a limitation in video bandwidth we are afraid'..... then it would have been easier to swallow.

But the fact they have described this very mode as smooth and realistic just smacks of ,well, complete inaccuracy.

Little over a year ago I bought a RS600 to replace my VW600 . It was supposed to be future proof , the latest HDR features, noise free, contrast that was miles ahead, brighter, and resolution that as good as 4K . I was a little reluctant because reviews had it a shade behind resolution wise, some hints of shimmer or noise, and motion not as good as Sony . The forum discussion convinced me to go ahead with the RS600 on the basis of it being none of that and well, it was a little cheaper than the VW675 option by a few thousand . Well, it was a lot of good no doubt, great contrast, fantastic 3D , plenty bright , great color and so on . What it did have that bothered me was noise in the image
and I could not get rid of it . The same ones that told me it wasn't there denied it and then collectively attacked me in that thread for suggesting it was even there. Apparently I did not have a clue how to set it up properly, had the settings wrong, I was called all kinds of nasty names , even accused of "misleading" others into believing it even existed .
It was never JUST grain as was suggested, it was a byproduct of the grain and e-shift process. Well the noise was there all along , now universally discussed and accepted , long after I was banished from even discussing it .


Not happy with my treatment or this noise , I decided to purchase a VW675 , compare the two myself. I'm not getting into a long winded comparison of the two. just suffice it to say the VW675 had the image I preferred and decided to keep . I kept it for the features I desired and liked most .


I sold the JVC and took a 40% hit . They already released a new model with upgraded HDR and other features , did not offer this to the outgoing model . Sony actually did offer the upgrades to their older models with poor HDR implementation , JVC flat out refused so I had a disabled model only 6 months in .


Point is , nothing is future proof and not always as advertised . Most projectors should give you 90% of what you want and 10% of what you don't want, if your lucky. Even the best are not perfect and certainly never future proofed.

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......, but the image quality is not as good as the rest but that is down to a limitation in video bandwidth we are afraid'..... ......
I thought you said it wasn't about the bandwidth? Sounds to me like your argument should be the HDR handling, chroma up-sampling and conversion to RGB within the Sony projector, not the bandwidth it accepts, especially since it can take in the exact same bandwidth SDR signal and display it just fine.

If the Sony did these things right, then the bandwidth limitation would be moot, just as it is with 4K60p SDR 4:2:0 WGC.
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post #1588 of 2056 Old 10-16-2017, 01:16 AM
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I thought you said it wasn't about the bandwidth? Sounds to me like your argument should be the HDR handling, chroma up-sampling and conversion to RGB within the Sony projector, not the bandwidth it accepts, especially since it can take in the exact same bandwidth SDR signal and display it just fine.

If the Sony did these things right, then the bandwidth limitation would be moot, just as it is with 4K60p SDR 4:2:0 WGC.
Arrgh, it is. But taking part of a sentence from one of my posts out of context, because that snippet happens to say what you want it to is good going sir. That original full comment was a supposition, a sentence giving an example of something that if Sony may have just said something like that (or just been more honest) then the issue may have been easier to swallow or I may have decided not to buy anyway.
I know bandwidth limitations don't CAUSE this problem but Sony building in a more limited HDMI pipe on these projectors has the unfortunate side effect of showing up the machines subpar chroma scaling engine when it has to do the full job. Something that had a full fat pipe been installed, would have never seen the light of day. ☺️

Last edited by Archibald1; 10-16-2017 at 02:35 AM.
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Hi all.
Just had a phone call from Sony prime support and I was informed that 'the banding is down to the projector having a hardware limitation and not enough processing power for "so much data" so it down samples the 10 or 12 bit signal internally to 8 bit at high frame rates in 4k HDR'. He also said firmware would not fix the issue.
Hence I am now with much regret (and a little sadness) engaging with my dealer to return the unit. 🙁
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hi all.
Just had a phone call from Sony prime support and I was informed that 'the banding is down to the projector having a hardware limitation and not enough processing power for "so much data" so it down samples the 10 or 12 bit signal internally to 8 bit at high frame rates in 4k HDR'. He also said firmware would not fix the issue.
Hence I am now with much regret (and a little sadness) engaging with my dealer to return the unit. 🙁
Disappointing...but at high frame rates is the key wording...is that ONLY 60 Hz or 50 and 60 Hz?
If 30 and 24 are OK with 4k HDR at 10 bit then it is what I originally thought and what the marketing info suggested.

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