Official JVC RS520/RS620 (X7500/X9500) Owner's Thread - Page 96 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2851 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
I have not noticed any degradation with the linker in the chain apart form the added benefit of a working iris. Interesting.
When I had the Integral with my RS600, I didn't see any degradation either.
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post #2852 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by D_B_0673 View Post
..So on the OPPO do you set it to "strip MetaData"?
thanks
dan
Yes that makes the 203 do a down conversion to SDR 2020. Problem is it crushes the blacks in the process. The HDR 'off' sets it to SDR 709. See table half way down on this page for more info.
http://watershade.net/wmcclain/UDP-203-faq.html
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post #2853 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
So what did you say where is it now ?
The posts seemed to have reappeared, they were gone last night.

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post #2854 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
I've waited to post this because I've wanted to put my setup through multiple tests and sources before making a declarative statement. (Panny ub900 feeding a rs620 with a linker right before the pj; linker set to edid 8 with HDR set at disable.)

The linker was retired from my system. Yes, it allowed my iris to work and my gamma to stay put for HDR.

However, there's a noticeable step down in resolution when viewing bluray especially, but even Netflix through my Panny.

The ub900 image on the 620 with bluray is stunning. The upscaling is incredible, but the linker visibly removes the upscaling and gives a much more 1080p look to the movie.

Rogue One provided an excellent example of this. With no linker, it looks like I've turned on CMD (which I don't use), and the color and detail is sublime. When I add the linker, that added polish is gone. Still a nice picture, but not the same quality as without it.

UHD looks amazing as well with the HDR turned off on the Panny. Sharp, bright, and beautiful. Aside from seeing HDR and bt2020 pop up on the status screen, any improvement in image doesn't exist.

For this generation and with my setup, the best PQ is achieved clearly, in my eyes, by not using HDR and without a linker.

Anyone else experience the same?
UHD looks amazing as well with the HDR turned off on the Panny.

Are you always operating with HDR turned off on the Panny? You do realise thats Rec709 colour space right? You will lose wide colour gamut when doing that along with HDR, so at BEST you are getting only a marginal resolution increase vs standard bluray...

linker set to edid 8 with HDR set at disable.

OK so this would ordinarily give you full UHD HDR and WCG. But where is the HDR set to disable here? Is this the check box in the linker to enable the DI in HDR? If you use this, but also tell the Panny to turn off HDR (As you note above), you are not getting Rec2020 or HDR.

You should note there is a bug which still turns on CMD on the JVC's without you actually activating it, and I encounter this bug almost exclusively with the Panasonic more than I ever see it on my HTPC. You could be experiencing this.Which IMO, probably also affects very slightly the percieved resolution and detail, and the linker may even be triggering it.

Are you 100% sure you have disabled all semblance of scaling in the linker settings?

I dont see any image deteriation whatsoever using the linker, and the plethora of other members would have commented as much by now if it were a widespread issue.

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post #2855 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
I've waited to post this because I've wanted to put my setup through multiple tests and sources before making a declarative statement. (Panny ub900 feeding a rs620 with a linker right before the pj; linker set to edid 8 with HDR set at disable.)

The linker was retired from my system. Yes, it allowed my iris to work and my gamma to stay put for HDR.

However, there's a noticeable step down in resolution when viewing bluray especially, but even Netflix through my Panny.

The ub900 image on the 620 with bluray is stunning. The upscaling is incredible, but the linker visibly removes the upscaling and gives a much more 1080p look to the movie.

Rogue One provided an excellent example of this. With no linker, it looks like I've turned on CMD (which I don't use), and the color and detail is sublime. When I add the linker, that added polish is gone. Still a nice picture, but not the same quality as without it.

UHD looks amazing as well with the HDR turned off on the Panny. Sharp, bright, and beautiful. Aside from seeing HDR and bt2020 pop up on the status screen, any improvement in image doesn't exist.

For this generation and with my setup, the best PQ is achieved clearly, in my eyes, by not using HDR and without a linker.

Anyone else experience the same?
UHD looks amazing as well with the HDR turned off on the Panny.

Are you always operating with HDR turned off on the Panny? You do realise thats Rec709 colour space right? You will lose wide colour gamut when doing that along with HDR, so at BEST you are getting only a marginal resolution increase vs standard bluray...

linker set to edid 8 with HDR set at disable.

OK so this would ordinarily give you full UHD HDR and WCG. But where is the HDR set to disable here? Is this the check box in the linker to enable the DI in HDR? If you use this, but also tell the Panny to turn off HDR (As you note above), you are not getting Rec2020 or HDR.

You should note there is a bug which still turns on CMD on the JVC's without you actually activating it, and I encounter this bug almost exclusively with the Panasonic more than I ever see it on my HTPC. You could be experiencing this.Which IMO, probably also affects very slightly the percieved resolution and detail, and the linker may even be triggering it.

Are you 100% sure you have disabled all semblance of scaling in the linker settings?

I dont see any image deteriation whatsoever using the linker, and the plethora of other members would have commented as much by now if it were a widespread issue.
The example I used was a standard bluray of Rogue One.

With the linker set to edid 8 and HDR set to disable as described ( nothing else changed), I get a good picture. But if I remove the linker altogether, I get a better resolution. The CMD still reads off, but it has a bit of that effect. It's flatter with the linker, more depth without it.

I can turn on the HDR in the Panny, but how will that affect the color for a bluray? On a UHD, I don't want it triggering my HDR on the 620 because it looks terrible. I'd like to get Chad B to calibrate my projector.
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post #2856 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 05:14 PM
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OT, but does anyone in here own an X570? If so, whats the difference between that, and the RS420??? And how do you like it? thanks...
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post #2857 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
The example I used was a standard bluray of Rogue One.

With the linker set to edid 8 and HDR set to disable as described ( nothing else changed), I get a good picture. But if I remove the linker altogether, I get a better resolution. The CMD still reads off, but it has a bit of that effect. It's flatter with the linker, more depth without it.

I can turn on the HDR in the Panny, but how will that affect the color for a bluray? On a UHD, I don't want it triggering my HDR on the 620 because it looks terrible. I'd like to get Chad B to calibrate my projector.
The CMD bug will still show as off when it happens, you need to cycle CMD on and off to make sure its really off. Its happened to me at least 30 times. But I am so sensitive to it since I hate CMD that I notice it within seconds and cycle cmd and its gone.

HDR setting on the panny has zero to do with bluray. You should leave the linker in and use EDID 10 for wide color gamut SDR. Leave the Panny HDR setting to on, otherwise it will only send SDR Rec709 no matter what the linker says.
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post #2858 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post
OT, but does anyone in here own an X570? If so, whats the difference between that, and the RS420??? And how do you like it? thanks...
Same physical projector save for the gold trim ring on the RS.

I have an X9500 which is identical to an X970 which is identical to an RS620.

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post #2859 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 05:57 PM
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post #2860 of 5131 Old 08-06-2017, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
The example I used was a standard bluray of Rogue One.

With the linker set to edid 8 and HDR set to disable as described ( nothing else changed), I get a good picture. But if I remove the linker altogether, I get a better resolution. The CMD still reads off, but it has a bit of that effect. It's flatter with the linker, more depth without it.

I can turn on the HDR in the Panny, but how will that affect the color for a bluray? On a UHD, I don't want it triggering my HDR on the 620 because it looks terrible. I'd like to get Chad B to calibrate my projector.
The CMD bug will still show as off when it happens, you need to cycle CMD on and off to make sure its really off. Its happened to me at least 30 times. But I am so sensitive to it since I hate CMD that I notice it within seconds and cycle cmd and its gone.

HDR setting on the panny has zero to do with bluray. You should leave the linker in and use EDID 10 for wide color gamut SDR. Leave the Panny HDR setting to on, otherwise it will only send SDR Rec709 no matter what the linker says.
Will do.
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post #2861 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 01:44 AM
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I've not read all 2863 posts, but I get the impression that, for all it's faults, the X7500 is a very capable projector. I've been running an RS49 (X500) for the last 2yrs and am looking to upgrade to the X7500. The only thing that's stopping me is the thought that the X7500's successor may be on the horizon. This in itself wouldn't be a great concern so long as the new model isn't going to be "game changer". The limited research I've done indicates that there is nothing significant in the pipeline in this price range. True 4K, as far as I can ascertain, is here already in the JVC-Z1 but is £35,000. And so my question is simply this -would spending £5k on an X7500 now, be a wise move - or would I be better off waiting to see what the next offerings from JVC will be ? I'm still very pleased with my RS49 which now has 800hrs on it - I'm just looking for a little more "pop"
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post #2862 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Is this the check box in the linker to enable the DI in HDR?
Is there actually a check box on the Linker that I must check to enable DI?
I don't have one yet so I am not sure of the interface.
I would want to have the Panny do the HDR convert to SDR but keep 2020

I wish OPPO would just improve their HDR to SDR conversion, much easier to use the StripMetaData command.
thanks
dan

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post #2863 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Loftboy View Post
I've not read all 2863 posts, but I get the impression that, for all it's faults, the X7500 is a very capable projector. I've been running an RS49 (X500) for the last 2yrs and am looking to upgrade to the X7500. The only thing that's stopping me is the thought that the X7500's successor may be on the horizon. This in itself wouldn't be a great concern so long as the new model isn't going to be "game changer".
It's only about a month to wait to find out. We should know by CEDIA what's coming out this year, if anything.
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post #2864 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Loftboy View Post
I've not read all 2863 posts, but I get the impression that, for all it's faults, the X7500 is a very capable projector.
Pretty much, the only better product on the market is the 9500. ...and I suspect it will stay like that for a little while.

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post #2865 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by D_B_0673 View Post
Is there actually a check box on the Linker that I must check to enable DI?
I don't have one yet so I am not sure of the interface.
I would want to have the Panny do the HDR convert to SDR but keep 2020

I wish OPPO would just improve their HDR to SDR conversion, much easier to use the StripMetaData command.
thanks
dan
It appears to me that you are confusing the Disable HDR checkbox and the selection of EDID 10 in the Linker.

Choosing Custom EDID 10 in the Linker will present an EDID to the Panasonic player that indicates that BT.2020 is supported but HDR is not. This causes the Panasonic player to convert HDR to SDR BT.2020.

Marking the Disable HDR metadata checkbox in the Linker GUI indicates to the Linker that it should disable the HDR metadata flag when sending HDR BT.2020 to a display. The JVC projectors use the presence of the HDR metadata flag to disable the Dynamic Iris and auto-select Gamma D. Without the HDR flag's presence, the JVC does not disable the DI and does not auto-select Gamma D. It is still receiving HDR but we can enjoy the benefits of the DI and use our own custom gamma curve.

In summary, use EDID 10 to get HDR to SDR BT.2020 from the Panasonic player, and use Disable HDR flag to enable the JVC dynamic iris when receiving HDR. The Disable HDR flag does nothing when EDID 10 is selected because it only affects HDR input and EDID 10 results in the Linker receiving SDR from the Panasonic.

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Last edited by claw; 08-07-2017 at 07:46 AM.
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post #2866 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 08:20 AM
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Is stripping the HDR from the signal the preferred way to watch 4K content? I just received my RS520 on Friday and have been enjoying HDR content, but I guess I don't know what I'm missing out on. I understand that you get DI control back...but does it take away the brighter brights and darker darks thing that is always advertised as HDR?

Also, as mentioned above I've noticed the CMD on while stating it was off, running the UB900. Is there any fix other than cycling through the options to off again?

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post #2867 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Stripping HDR means different things to different people. It would be clearer to all if we referred to either:

SDR BT.2020
Disable HDR datablock

Some of us who prefer to display HDR on our JVC projectors use a Linker to disable the HDR datablock. HDR BT.2020 is still sent from the Linker to the JVC but without the HDR datablock which keeps the Dynamic Iris active.

I am not in the SDR BT.2020 camp so I can't comment. Except to state that I prefer HDR on my RS500 with the Dynamic Iris enabled and a custom gamma curve loaded. Without the custom curve and the working DI I would likely be watching SDR BT.2020.

Update: I just noticed that you were referring to the RS520. I definitely can't comment on it. This is the RS500/600 thread.
Unless something is seriously wrong with my browser, this is the RS520/620 thread.

I guess I'm still wondering if it's worth getting the HDFury and what benefits/disadvantages the device provides, if anyone could explain.

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post #2868 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by starshipvelcro View Post
Unless something is seriously wrong with my browser, this is the RS520/620 thread.

I guess I'm still wondering if it's worth getting the HDFury and what benefits/disadvantages the device provides, if anyone could explain.
My post was moved from the RS500/600 thread to here along with others. When I posted I was in the 500/600 thread. Post deleted.

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post #2869 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshipvelcro View Post
Unless something is seriously wrong with my browser, this is the RS520/620 thread.

I guess I'm still wondering if it's worth getting the HDFury and what benefits/disadvantages the device provides, if anyone could explain.
My post was moved from the RS500/600 thread to here along with others. When I posted I was in the 500/600 thread.
Oops, silly me then.
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post #2870 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
It appears to me that you are confusing the Disable HDR checkbox and the selection of EDID 10 in the Linker.

Choosing Custom EDID 10 in the Linker will present an EDID to the Panasonic player that indicates that BT.2020 is supported but HDR is not. This causes the Panasonic player to convert HDR to SDR BT.2020.

Marking the Disable HDR metadata checkbox in the Linker GUI indicates to the Linker that it should disable the HDR metadata flag when sending HDR BT.2020 to a display. The JVC projectors use the presence of the HDR metadata flag to disable the Dynamic Iris and auto-select Gamma D. Without the HDR flag's presence, the JVC does not disable the DI and does not auto-select Gamma D. It is still receiving HDR but we can enjoy the benefits of the DI and use our own custom gamma curve.

In summary, use EDID 10 to get HDR to SDR BT.2020 from the Panasonic player, and use Disable HDR flag to enable the JVC dynamic iris when receiving HDR. The Disable HDR flag does nothing when EDID 10 is selected because it only affects HDR input and EDID 10 results in the Linker receiving SDR from the Panasonic.
Ok, I think.
If you use EDID 10 and get the HDR to SDT BT 2020 will the DI still function?
And with the OPPO, does Strip Metadata give the HDR to SDT BT 2020 conversion (although some say poorly done)
With the OPPO is there any way to still have the DI working with HDR
I am assuming using the OPPO alone without the Linker
thanks,
dan

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Last edited by D_B_0673; 08-07-2017 at 01:30 PM.
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post #2871 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
The CMD bug will still show as off when it happens, you need to cycle CMD on and off to make sure its really off. Its happened to me at least 30 times. But I am so sensitive to it since I hate CMD that I notice it within seconds and cycle cmd and its gone.

HDR setting on the panny has zero to do with bluray. You should leave the linker in and use EDID 10 for wide color gamut SDR. Leave the Panny HDR setting to on, otherwise it will only send SDR Rec709 no matter what the linker says.
I think you identified he culprit. The CMD seems to oscillate from startup to startup. That must be coming somehow from the upscaling because I never noticed it until I got this ub900 UHD player.

I turned HDR back on in the Panny and set the edid to 10. Before, I had it at 8. Makes sense this way to avoid the HDR, but keep the bt2020.

The CMD issue seems fixable with a firmware update if they'd put one out.

Thanks.
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post #2872 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 02:42 PM
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Ok, I think.
If you use EDID 10 and get the HDR to SDT BT 2020 will the DI still function?
And with the OPPO, does Strip Metadata give the HDR to SDT BT 2020 conversion (although some say poorly done)
With the OPPO is there any way to still have the DI working with HDR
I am assuming using the OPPO alone without the Linker
thanks,
dan
1. The JVC projectors will not disable the Dynamic Iris when receiving SDR; either BT.2020 or REC709.

2. Yes, the Oppo Strip Metadata option converts HDR to SDR BT.2020. The Oppo is crushing blacks in both the HDR to SDR BT.2020 conversion and in the HDR to SDR REC709 conversion. Oppo will need to address this.

3. With the Oppo or any other UHD player, an HDFury Linker is needed to disable the HDR datablock before sending the HDR stream to the JVC projector. This is the only way to prevent the JVC from disabling the DI. The JVC triggers the disabling of the DI based on the presence of the HDR datablock. The JVC is still receiving HDR but it doesn't know it so you would also need to manually select an HDR Gamma. I even use the Linker to disable the HDR datablock when viewing HDR content from Amazon and Netflix apps on my Samsung K8500 UHD player so that the JVC DI is not disabled. I have heard that Lumagen processors can do the same but they are at a whole different price level.

Sometime in the October / November time frame HDFury will be releasing a new product named Vertex. It combines the unique capabilities of the Linker (scalar) with the unique capabilities of the Integral (4k matrix switch) into a single product. Might be worth waiting for.

CJ
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Last edited by claw; 08-08-2017 at 09:02 AM.
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post #2873 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 03:08 PM
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1. The JVC projectors will not disable the Dynamic Iris when receiving SDR; either BT.2020 or REC709.

2. Yes, the Oppo Strip Metadata option converts HDR to SDR BT.2020. The Oppo is clipping blacks in both the HDR to SDR BT.2020 conversion and in the HDR to SDR REC709 conversion. Oppo will need to address this.

3. With the Oppo or any other UHD player, an HDFury Linker is needed to disable the HDR datablock before sending the HDR stream to the JVC projector. This is the only way to prevent the JVC from disabling the DI. The JVC triggers the disabling of the DI based on the presence of the HDR datablock. The JVC is still receiving HDR but it doesn't know it so you would also need to manually select an HDR Gamma. I even use the Linker to disable the HDR datablock when viewing HDR content from Amazon and Netflix apps on my Samsung K8500 UHD player so that the JVC DI is not disabled. I have heard that Lumagen processors can do the same but they are at a whole different price level.

Sometime in the October / November time frame HDFury will be releasing a new product named Vertex. It combines the unique capabilities of the Linker (scalar) with the unique capabilities of the Integral (4k matrix switch) into a single product. Might be worth waiting for.
thanks very much
your explanations are thorough, it is just my newness to all this that is confusing me.
Are you using the OPPO?
dan

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post #2874 of 5131 Old 08-07-2017, 04:00 PM
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It's only about a month to wait to find out. We should know by CEDIA what's coming out this year, if anything.


I thought this years models weren't announced at CEDIA but were instead announced in January?


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post #2875 of 5131 Old 08-08-2017, 09:38 AM
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Reading an older post, it seems like the DI manual setting serves as a max iris setting when selecting Auto1 or Auto2.

Is this similar when viewing HDR content? I have the UB900 and so far have only used the HDR slider in the UB900 to adjust HDR brightness, but was wondering if some baseline/max is settable in the projector for HDR without going into Gamma settings.

Also any good description of what MPC does?

Thanks,
David
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post #2876 of 5131 Old 08-08-2017, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dgkula View Post
Reading an older post, it seems like the DI manual setting serves as a max iris setting when selecting Auto1 or Auto2.

Is this similar when viewing HDR content? I have the UB900 and so far have only used the HDR slider in the UB900 to adjust HDR brightness, but was wondering if some baseline/max is settable in the projector for HDR without going into Gamma settings.

Also any good description of what MPC does?

Thanks,
David
When doing HDR, the iris is fully open and the dynamic iris is disabled, unless you add a linker, then you have use of the dynamic iris.
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post #2877 of 5131 Old 08-08-2017, 10:52 AM
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When doing HDR, the iris is fully open and the dynamic iris is disabled, unless you add a linker, then you have use of the dynamic iris.
Is this the main reason for adding a linker? And then do you run the HDR/Gamma profile on the JVC still?

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post #2878 of 5131 Old 08-08-2017, 10:57 AM
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Is this the main reason for adding a linker? And then do you run the HDR/Gamma profile on the JVC still?
On the x20 series JVC's the HDR implementation is good, so you can use it. Adding the Linker will just allow you to use the dynamic iris with HDR. You can also run a custom gamma curve if wanted. On the x00 series, you should run custom gamma curves to get the best out of HDR. Then adding a linker will do two things. One it will keep the projector from going back to gamma D and two, it allows use of the dynamic iris.
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post #2879 of 5131 Old 08-08-2017, 01:00 PM
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When doing HDR, the iris is fully open and the dynamic iris is disabled, unless you add a linker, then you have use of the dynamic iris.
Thx Mike - so is there any control on the projector (other than gamma) to set a baseline brightness level for HDR?
I have used the slider in the Panny UB900 for this purpose.
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post #2880 of 5131 Old 08-09-2017, 11:11 AM
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Can I force the 620 to stay on low lamp when viewing HDR 4k?
I feel I would have a enough brightness (only 106" DaLite high Powerscreen )
I am hoping to not have the fans ramp up, although I don' know how much louder it would be.
thanks
dan

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