BenQ HT8050 DLP 4K UHD THX Certified Projector Unveiled - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 229 Old 07-03-2017, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
http://www.projectorreviews.com/the-...ter-projector/

Review is coming. They seem very positive so far!
Will be interesting to read, though it is worth keeping in mind that the European version (BenQ W11000) was hit pretty hard for its dynamic iris implementation - Art mentions it in this first look (audible noise when moving); was hit hard enough that BenQ stated that one of the major improvements in the next iteration due in November 2017 (BenQ W11500) is an improved dynamic iris, plus HDR. Which is probably worth waiting for as just around the corner.

Still, man the chassis of the HT8050 is sexy!
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post #182 of 229 Old 07-20-2017, 12:04 PM
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Just read a review of the new cheap BenQ (Successor of HT3040): http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/...t-benq-w2000-2

They measure the contrast to ~2000:1 which is double the HT8050.. I don't get it! (Use Google Translate for the review).

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post #183 of 229 Old 07-20-2017, 01:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Just read a review of the new cheap BenQ (Successor of HT3040): http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/...t-benq-w2000-2

They measure the contrast to ~2000:1 which is double the HT8050.. I don't get it! (Use Google Translate for the review).
It looks like 2500:1 actually. I wonder if the "smarteco mode" helps contrast even more. And is it fairly invisible in it's action?
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post #184 of 229 Old 07-20-2017, 01:52 PM
 
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Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:

Quote:
The DLP660TE [.67" XPR DMD] is intended for use in a 4K UHD system and supports UHD displays. Furthermore, these displays must run at 50Hz or 60Hz. The front end processor will convert any input frame rate to either 50Hz or 60Hz.If the input is an integer multiple of 50Hz or 60 Hz, the front end will use 2:2 pulldown, otherwise it will use 3:2 pulldown. These configurations are not currently programmable. Any source with a resolution lower than UHD will be upscaled by the front end processor to UHD. The DLPC4422 controller does allow different levels of control to drive the DMD, but it’s the decision of the system integrator on how to configure the final system.
So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.
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post #185 of 229 Old 07-20-2017, 11:11 PM
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I can't believe they offer projectors without 24p support.

Will they even be able to do proper DFI without 24p support for people who like DFI?
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post #186 of 229 Old 07-20-2017, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
I can't believe they offer projectors without 24p support.

Will they even be able to do proper DFI without 24p support for people who like DFI?
I admit that I haven't given this a lot of thought, but I'm not sure that Dark Frame Insertion would work very well with eShift/XPR. It wouldn't give a whole lot of time to create each sub-frame. In the case of DLPs, the mirrors can only move so fast and they would probably need to do more dithering if they were doing DFI.

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post #187 of 229 Old 08-17-2017, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:



So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.

Is you TI source reliable?
Because so far the DMD does not work with 50Hz either, only(!) 60Hz.
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post #188 of 229 Old 08-17-2017, 03:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Is you TI source reliable?
Because so far the DMD does not work with 50Hz either, only(!) 60Hz.
https://e2e.ti.com/support/dlp__mems...f/947/t/610610
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post #189 of 229 Old 08-21-2017, 01:56 PM
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does anyone own the ht8050? impressions? I thought about it but went with optoma uhd60 instead.
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post #190 of 229 Old 08-28-2017, 01:46 AM
 
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@Seegs108
The programmer's guide is online:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/dlpu060/dlpu060.pdf
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post #191 of 229 Old 08-28-2017, 07:31 AM
 
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@Seegs108
The programmer's guide is online:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/dlpu060/dlpu060.pdf
The only mention I see regarding frame rate control or manipulation in that guide is for the internal test patterns. Please correct me if I've missed something.
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post #192 of 229 Old 08-28-2017, 07:55 AM
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TI told me the same thing when I was doing the 9050 review. 60 Hz refresh rate visually (120 Hz in projector, since it is two subframes). I measured this with my meter and got the exact same thing for refresh.

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post #193 of 229 Old 08-28-2017, 08:12 AM
 
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I've asked TI again to further clarify if this new programmers guide has any new control over on screen refresh rate based upon the input source.
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post #194 of 229 Old 08-28-2017, 04:34 PM
 
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TI claims it's now possible to do 24p at 48hz with this latest software release for the control board. That's good news. Now TI is back to supporting a feature that's been supported for over a decade on all other platforms. It also isn't clear on whether or not BenQ, Optoma and others who have a DLP projector based on this DMD will issue a firmware update to add proper 24p support. It would be terrible for those who've spent thousands on these faux-K DLP units if they didn't receive an update to support something it should have had out of the box. It feels this DMD and controller was rushed out the door before a polished software platform was created for it.
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post #195 of 229 Old 08-29-2017, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
TI claims it's now possible to do 24p at 48hz with this latest software release for the control board. That's good news. Now TI is back to supporting a feature that's been supported for over a decade on all other platforms. It also isn't clear on whether or not BenQ, Optoma and others who have a DLP projector based on this DMD will issue a firmware update to add proper 24p support. It would be terrible for those who've spent thousands on these faux-K DLP units if they didn't receive an update to support something it should have had out of the box. It feels this DMD and controller was rushed out the door before a polished software platform was created for it.
Considering a BenQ representative informed Kraine they were adding HDR and 3D to the HT9050 via firmware by end of year, I don't think its far fetched to assume that it may include native 24p as well.

As I stated before numerous times, every single DLP 4K projector has a USB port designed for firmware updates. It is clear that the platform wasn't 100% finished when it was released. But the DLP manufacturers needed something 4K to sell, and some have done incredibly well with their products such as the Optoma UHD60/UHD65 despite the lack of this feature (and 3D) - UHD65 continues to outsell the 5040UB on projectorpeople, for instance, since launch. But, since all these projectors are FW updatable, those projectors can now also get this feature in the future.

Tempest in a teapot, once again.
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post #196 of 229 Old 09-12-2017, 06:17 AM
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Considering a BenQ representative informed Kraine they were adding HDR and 3D to the HT9050 via firmware by end of year, I don't think its far fetched to assume that it may include native 24p as well.

Okay, that could explain why we are currently still stuck with only two previews of the HT9050.


http://hometheaterhifi.com/news/prod...ector-preview/


http://www.projectorreviews.com/the-...er-projectors/


Is there any indication it will feature Frame Interpolation for 4K UHD program content?

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post #197 of 229 Old 09-12-2017, 06:23 AM
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Okay, that could explain why we are currently still stuck with only two previews of the HT9050.


http://hometheaterhifi.com/news/prod...ector-preview/


http://www.projectorreviews.com/the-...er-projectors/


Is there any indication it will feature Frame Interpolation for 4K UHD program content?
No I don't believe it will include FI.

But there is a good chance it could include native 24p unlike the current firmware.
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post #198 of 229 Old 09-12-2017, 06:34 AM
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No I don't believe it will include FI.

Now that would be rather disappointing, IMHO, for a front projector scheduled to cost 9,000 $.


Hopefully Acer reconsiders that, should they plan a sucessor for their V9800 that shares the same projector housing as the HT9050.

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post #199 of 229 Old 09-12-2017, 06:37 AM
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I think for a projector that costs $9K you're in for A LOT of disappointment when it comes to features. Even without getting into the abysmal contrast performance, this thing is an absolute dud when it comes to features in comparison to anything at or near its price point.

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post #200 of 229 Old 09-12-2017, 06:42 AM
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I think for a projector that costs $9K you're in for A LOT of disappointment when it comes to features. Even without getting into the abysmal contrast performance, this thing is an absolute dud when it comes to features in comparison to anything at or near its price point.
In all fairness the HT8050/HT9050 were the very first DLP 4k projectors released on the biggest DLP platform change in over a decade. So I'm not surprised they arent fully featured.

I do agree their MSRP is overpriced, though the HT8050 I knows sells for a lot lower than msrp.

The ht9050 has a lot of potential for next years model, but this year's model just isn't a good value in its current form and pricepoint. If they added HDR, 3D, dynamic led dimming, native 24p, and dropped price to $7500 then it would be a good value IMO.
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post #201 of 229 Old 09-12-2017, 06:52 AM
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Considering what Optoma was able to do at half the price, I don't find the "we're first" argument a good excuse. BenQ should have looked at the market for $9K and known what they were up against. I just had a meeting at CEDIA with TI and they were of similar opinion.

HDR is going to be a task for a projector with a contrast of less than 1K:1. Not only are they going to have to figure out how to get their dynamic system to work, they are going to have to completely rework their WCG support (it does not support 2020 currently) and fix their massive RBE issues (probably the worst DLP I've seen in over a decade in this respect). Kudos to them if they can get it all right with a firmware update, but call me skeptical at the moment.
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post #202 of 229 Old 09-12-2017, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
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Considering what Optoma was able to do at half the price, I don't find the "we're first" argument a good excuse. BenQ should have looked at the market for $9K and known what they were up against. I just had a meeting at CEDIA with TI and they were of similar opinion.
Yeah, like the Sony VW385

Seriously, at $8000 you can have Native 4K, 15,000-20,000:1 native contrast (plus DI), ~90% of DCI P3 coverage (I think that's what we're expecting), 3D, powered lens, lens memory
or
Wobulated 4K, <1000:1 native contrast, ~75% of DCI P3 coverage, no 3D, no power lens, no lens memory

Granted the 385 wasn't announced when BenQ announced these, but still, that's the reality their facing.
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post #203 of 229 Old 09-12-2017, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Considering what Optoma was able to do at half the price, I don't find the "we're first" argument a good excuse. BenQ should have looked at the market for $9K and known what they were up against. I just had a meeting at CEDIA with TI and they were of similar opinion.

HDR is going to be a task for a projector with a contrast of less than 1K:1. Not only are they going to have to figure out how to get their dynamic system to work, they are going to have to completely rework their WCG support (it does not support 2020 currently) and fix their massive RBE issues (probably the worst DLP I've seen in over a decade in this respect). Kudos to them if they can get it all right with a firmware update, but call me skeptical at the moment.
Yeh I think all of the issues overall with the ht9050 are too much to fix with firmware (especially RBE, perhaps dynamic dimming might be hard to address since these could be tied to hardware limitations) - or, if fixable, would probably be worth relaunching as a new model due to bad press from first model.

The platform has a lot of potential, it just hasn't been realized for 5k+ range yet. Optoma did a great job in the under 5k bracket though IMO. The UHD65/UHD60 were homeruns given their price point.

I was also disappointed with BenQ's boring ck917 5000 lumen laser for $12k. Nearly 6k more for the same thing as the Optoma 4k500. Casio released basically the same projector 6 months and for less money. Some company needs to step up and contrast optimize these high lumen DLP projectors. Hopefully we will see that with the sequel to the ht9050.

Would also love to see the 5000 lumen variant of the colorspark platform with rapid cycling Leds but that is looking less likely sadly. Maybe Delta will step up to the plate given their history with LED projector design.

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post #204 of 229 Old 09-13-2017, 02:21 AM
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I just had a meeting at CEDIA with TI and they were of similar opinion.
You didn't just go to the Texas Instruments booth to talk about the HT9050, right?

Would you be willing to share with us what you learned? Do they acknowledge the contrast deficiency of current DMDs and do they have any plans for the future to solve the issue? Do they now only focus the low-end home theater segment or are high-end solutions still on their radar? I still haven't read any CEDIA report of TI's plans for the future, it would be nice to learn where they are heading.


Found this official Optoma statement at Amazon.com, following this question:


Optoma; does this dlp projector feature DarkChip 2,3 or 4 for contrast?

The UHD60 uses “Single 0.66” TRP S610 4K UHD DMD DLP chip by Texas Instruments. It is a new line from TI and is not part of their Dark Chip lineup.

So the question apparently remains whether TI will feature a corresponding DMD in their "Dark Chip lineup".

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post #205 of 229 Old 09-13-2017, 02:35 AM
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I bought the Acer V9800 (equivalent to the BenQ HT8050) as I have always been a fan of DLP and their colors, sharpness and bright scenes.

Disclaimer: The test was in a room with white walls and projected the image on a wall as my home theater is still being built.

My findings:
- Sharpness is the best I have ever seen. Single-chip and "almost" 4k is a combination which just looks fantastic. Subtitles look so sharp and I have not seen this matched even by a true 4K non-DLP projector.
- Bright images were really good - had the DLP look I like and colors pop.
- Low APL scenes: Much worse than I feared. I knew blacks were not going to be the best, but I expected that this is something I could live with - but I must admit, that the performance ruins the experience completely. By activating the iris it becomes acceptable but the implementation is useless. If the scene contains subtitles or small bright objects the image flickers and pumps. It is a shame as the blacks and contrast is actually okay when the iris is at max.

So conclusion: I will send the unit back and will look at alternatives. It's a shame as I really like the sharpness and the brighter scenes very much. I will try and upload some images.

EDIT: See attaches image. This is a "black scene".
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File Type: jpg Picture1.jpg (76.9 KB, 130 views)

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post #206 of 229 Old 09-13-2017, 02:57 AM
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This is a "black scene".

Ouch...yes, the good old shadow show utilizing your own hand can be a devastating test for contrast and black level performance. Heck, even my old Optoma HD83 does a better job, there's definitely the need for considerable improvement.

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post #207 of 229 Old 09-13-2017, 04:30 AM
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You didn't just go to the Texas Instruments booth to talk about the HT9050, right?

Would you be willing to share with us what you learned? Do they acknowledge the contrast deficiency of current DMDs and do they have any plans for the future to solve the issue? Do they now only focus the low-end home theater segment or are high-end solutions still on their radar? I still haven't read any CEDIA report of TI's plans for the future, it would be nice to learn where they are heading.
I don't think there is anything that can actually be done of note on the DMD level. Pretty sure Texas Instruments went down this road before and found that DarkChip4 was essentially the best they could get in black levels without unaffordable chip prices; and even these DC4 chips are used in more expensive projectors, with virtually all under $10,000 using the less expensive DarkChip3 DMD. 4K complicates things further as the smaller mirrors leads to lower contrast, and this is one reason why XPR was created to allow for larger mirror size.

The path to blacker blacks on DLP leads to the lightpath implementation, not further refinements of the DMD. You can optimize the lightpath at expense of lumens for higher contrast. Or, you can use multiple DMDs in series in combination with light source dimming for a better dynamic contrast solution. The former is much less expensive than the latter, and hopefully with the excess of lumens laser brings DLP manufacturers will start introducing some of these contrast optimizations in the lightpath.

So it really boils down to whether one can deal with not having entirely black blacks in exchange for DLP's other strengths.
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post #208 of 229 Old 09-13-2017, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
You didn't just go to the Texas Instruments booth to talk about the HT9050, right?

Would you be willing to share with us what you learned? Do they acknowledge the contrast deficiency of current DMDs and do they have any plans for the future to solve the issue? Do they now only focus the low-end home theater segment or are high-end solutions still on their radar? I still haven't read any CEDIA report of TI's plans for the future, it would be nice to learn where they are heading.


Found this official Optoma statement at Amazon.com, following this question:


Optoma; does this dlp projector feature DarkChip 2,3 or 4 for contrast?

The UHD60 uses “Single 0.66” TRP S610 4K UHD DMD DLP chip by Texas Instruments. It is a new line from TI and is not part of their Dark Chip lineup.

So the question apparently remains whether TI will feature a corresponding DMD in their "Dark Chip lineup".

I had a pretty long meeting with TI about their chip. They downplayed the contrast issue saying they didn't think sequential contrast numbers were a good indicator of performance, which we agreed to disagree on. They think ANSI contrast is a better indicator (because of course they would) despite ALL evidence and science showing ANSI has VERY little to do with onscreen dynamic range. It didn't sound like they were going to do anything to try and increase CR performance and left the onus on manufacturers with light path design and dynamic systems. They did show their prototype for the next XPR evolution, which uses an even smaller DMD that is only 1080p and instead of flashing it twice for 8 million plus pixels, they flash it four times. Of course they had it in their heads that this too should be considered 4K because each frame is handled on its own but didn't even think to mention that these pixels would HAVE to overlap so despite any individual addressing, they would inevitably be on top of each other. But I guess that doesn't matter with these BS rules for what qualifies as true 4K and those that are willing to lap it up.
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post #209 of 229 Old 09-13-2017, 08:07 AM
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They downplayed the contrast issue saying they didn't think sequential contrast numbers were a good indicator of performance, which we agreed to disagree on.



Quote:
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They think ANSI contrast is a better indicator (because of course they would) despite ALL evidence and science showing ANSI has VERY little to do with onscreen dynamic range.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
It didn't sound like they were going to do anything to try and increase CR performance and left the onus on manufacturers with light path design and dynamic systems.



Thanks, at least we now have an idea where TI is heading and what to expect (or better not to expect) in the foreseeable future.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I had a pretty long meeting with TI about their chip. They downplayed the contrast issue saying they didn't think sequential contrast numbers were a good indicator of performance, which we agreed to disagree on. They think ANSI contrast is a better indicator (because of course they would) despite ALL evidence and science showing ANSI has VERY little to do with onscreen dynamic range. It didn't sound like they were going to do anything to try and increase CR performance and left the onus on manufacturers with light path design and dynamic systems.
Guess I can write DLP off my list going forward (unless stacked/sequential DMD machines are ever allowed), that's a shame, it's still my favorite projection technology.

Quote:
They did show their prototype for the next XPR evolution, which uses an even smaller DMD that is only 1080p and instead of flashing it twice for 8 million plus pixels, they flash it four times.
That's funny, Darin was postulating exactly that idea in some of the XPR threads.
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