Discussion of the JVC CMD Vertical Banding issue and Fix Update (10/17) - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
The JVCs have been showing banding with CMD off since forever. Best visible on fast moving skin.
With CMD OFF?
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post #302 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I'd tell them -



DLP - usually better native motion than other technologies, but poorer native contrast ( includes DLP projectors from $500.00 to $ 150,000.00 ). 3 chip models have good dimension to the picture. No 4K yet, except in very expensive models. " Faux 4 " DLP models - quality unknown - not out and reviewed extensively yet......
I've seen you mention this on a couple of occasions and I have to disagree. The new 4K DLPs shouldn't be considered "faux-K" like the eShift projectors are from JVC and Epson. The new TI chips have twice as many pixels on them as the eShift ones do and it throws up all the 8.3 million pixels on screen, unlike the eShift which only throw up 4+ million. That to me is "faux-K". Maybe we should come with a new term for it since the 4K DLPs aren't quite the same as native like the Sonys because they show all the pixels, but they're shifted right and up. Maybe call it "faux-distinct" 4K?



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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
No more lightning in the area so my bulb is safe. I did some more testing.

I think I can safely say that I have now tried every setting on the JVC in an attempt to remove the banding with CMD on. I froze an affected scene and moved the settings. Obviously it would be prohibitive to try all the combinations but I'm not convinced it's a 'drug interaction' anyways.

Tried every picture mode.
Tried every color profile.
Tried every gamma setting.
Tried Motion Enhance On and Off.
Tried Clear Black on and Off.

The ONLY thing that almost removes the banding is putting MPC Smoothing (and NR to a lesser extent) all the way up to ten. And I say almost because it all but disappears when the frame is still frozen but is there again when you hit play again (motion makes it more visible).

And obviously Smoothing at ten for regular viewing is not acceptable.

Of course the other 'fix' is to turn CMD off.

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This is going to seem a silly request maybe, but have you tried setting Video Range from Limited (16-235) to Enhanced (0-255)? It can cause banding going the other way, so maybe worth a shot to see at least what happens while you change it. That's the only thing I see you haven't mentioned you tried.

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It has nothing to do with what he said, but rather how he's saying it.

The same could be said for you and I as well. We all need to take a moment for proof reading and self editing before we hit the submit button, don't you think? I know I have lately and I hope it's reflected in my recent posts?

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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Just for yucks I just trying sending RGB as well. No go.

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Why is that "yucks"? They all convert the YCbCr signal to RGB at some point for display, so there's nothing wrong with converting it in the source, especially if it does a better job of it, other than needing a higher bandwidth transport medium (cables).
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post #303 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
it's also misleading to try and make it seem as if most people use frame interpolation. With 24p content, motion is rendered extremely close to what is captured. If you want to view higher framerate material without FI, then you should be viewing on a DLP projector.
I doubt you'd be able to find a single instance where I said most people in this forum use frame interpolation.

I DO think there are a lot of people who buy a display where it is the default and just leave it that way. But it would be hard to say if that type of consumer cares either way. I know when I visit a new neighbor or go to someone's house for the first time it's almost always turned on. Sometimes it looks fine... Sometimes the SOE is off the charts.

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post #304 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
The same could be said for you and I as well. We all need to take a moment for proof reading and self editing before we hit the submit button, don't you think? I know I have lately and I hope it's reflected in my recent posts?
True, but Kris is nothing but helpful here on the forum. He is one of the most knowledgeable guys here and is someone who doesn't come here looking for a fight. His only purpose is to help others and yet he's being treated like garbage. It's simply not fair to him. He deserves a little more respect and an apology in my opinion.
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post #305 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by EllisGJ View Post
With CMD OFF?
Yes. I never turn this stuff on. The banding happens infrequently and is easy to overlook. It requires fast motion which makes seeing it more difficult.
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post #306 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
Yes. I never turn this stuff on. The banding happens infrequently and is easy to overlook. It requires fast motion which makes seeing it more difficult.
What are you using as your source components? What specific JVC do you own? Can you give us some time markers from a movie scene where you see it? I've never seen banding in the image with the last few generation JVCs with CMD off. With that said, some content has banding encoded into it due to 8 bit encoding limitations. Are you sure that's not what you're seeing?
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post #307 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I've seen you mention this on a couple of occasions and I have to disagree. The new 4K DLPs shouldn't be considered "faux-K" like the eShift projectors are from JVC and Epson. The new TI chips have twice as many pixels on them as the eShift ones do and it throws up all the 8.3 million pixels on screen, unlike the eShift which only throw up 4+ million. That to me is "faux-K". Maybe we should come with a new term for it since the 4K DLPs aren't quite the same as native like the Sonys because they show all the pixels, but they're shifted right and up. Maybe call it "faux-distinct" 4K?






This is going to seem a silly request maybe, but have you tried setting Video Range from Limited (16-235) to Enhanced (0-255)? It can cause banding going the other way, so maybe worth a shot to see at least what happens while you change it. That's the only thing I see you haven't mentioned you tried.




The same could be said for you and I as well. We all need to take a moment for proof reading and self editing before we hit the submit button, don't you think? I know I have lately and I hope it's reflected in my recent posts?




Why is that "yucks"? They all convert the YCbCr signal to RGB at some point for display, so there's nothing wrong with converting it in the source, especially if it does a better job of it, other than needing a higher bandwidth transport medium (cables).
Sorry. Certainly not for yucks. A poor choice of words. It's a valid test that I performed. It didn't work. I was just tired of jumping through hoops when I wrote that. After awhile you start to wonder if you'll get no banding under a full moon during a month when it's safe to eat shellfish...

I will test the video range when I get a chance.

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post #308 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
The same could be said for you and I as well. We all need to take a moment for proof reading and self editing before we hit the submit button, don't you think? I know I have lately and I hope it's reflected in my recent posts?
Wanted to give this part of your post a like.
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post #309 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
True, but Kris is nothing but helpful here on the forum. He is one of the most knowledgeable guys here and is someone who doesn't come here looking for a fight. His only purpose is to help others and yet he's being treated like garbage. It's simply not fair to him. He deserves a little more respect and an apology in my opinion.

I agree whole-heartedly. (Wow, did we just agree on something?! )

Although as I was catching up on this thread, I did see a bunch of people refer to him as a "weird dude" or some such, "Do you read my posts" questions (which I've said to you and many others numerous times) and other not too nice things. That would put anyone on the defensive don't you think? After reading those comments I was very curious why those were allowed to slide through, but previously "certain individuals" got in trouble for such comments?
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post #310 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I've seen you mention this on a couple of occasions and I have to disagree. The new 4K DLPs shouldn't be considered "faux-K" like the eShift projectors are from JVC and Epson. The new TI chips have twice as many pixels on them as the eShift ones do and it throws up all the 8.3 million pixels on screen, unlike the eShift which only throw up 4+ million. That to me is "faux-K". Maybe we should come with a new term for it since the 4K DLPs aren't quite the same as native like the Sonys because they show all the pixels, but they're shifted right and up. Maybe call it "faux-distinct" 4K?
It's not native 4K, so maybe we do need another term. Of course I'm waiting to see production projectors. I'm not holding my breath on what Optoma does with these chips, but BenQ may produce a good unit. There aren't a heck of a lot of good home theater DLP projector manufacturers left.

And I don't know if I'd refer to projectors as " throwing up " an image - that sounds wrong !
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post #311 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:43 PM
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It appears to have been deleted but prior to picking up my daughter at daycare I saw yet another post indicating that Sony and JVC both have the same NATIVE motion resolution.

This is definitely true. Both being LCoS they indeed both have the same POOR NATIVE motion resolution.

But with a Sony you don't have to settle for that due to their IMO well implemented frame interpolation called Motionflow.

With current JVC models you must accept the POOR NATIVE motion resolution inherent to this technology because their FI implementation called Clear Motion Drive is currently broken. Turning it on results in ugly vertical banding artifacts.

So continuing to harp on native motion being identical while technically accurate is a bit misleading IMO. You should have viable options to enhance native motion IF YOU WISH TO in 2017.
The Sony and the JVC has identical motion resolution (300 lines). I have tested it myself by overlaying both projectors with BOTH images focused and perfectly overlaid, guess what, It was so IN SYNC that I could have watched an entire movie with both projectors running.

You are unhappy with the general frame rate of motion pictures and prefer Frame Interpolation (Interpolation is a method of constructing new data points within the range of a discrete set of known data points.) which by definition is creating new frames where they otherwise did not previously exist, be aware of the distinction. If you like watching >50% fake frames compared to real ones, that's entirely your prerogative.

There is another, 3rd thing at play here though specifically between the JVC and Sony and that is Panel Refresh Rate, which is totally independent of motion resolution (This of this a little like the shutter speed in a camera). The Sony has a native 2.5ms refresh rate and the JVC is 4ms, both of those are WAY fast enough to display a frame at 24p natively at the same speed as each other, however the JVC uses a hold and release method (Not actually sure if the Sony also does) which can look slightly different to the Sony due to how each frame replaces the last.

DLP's have sub 1ms response times and can flash and release a frame almost instantaneously and as such look extremely natural. None of that is motion resolution.
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post #312 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You yourself are quite confused buddy.

The Sony and the JVC has IDENTICAL MOTION RESOLUTION (300 lines). I have tested it myself by overlaying both projectors with BOTH images focused and perfectly overlaid, guess what, It was so IN SYNC that I could have watched an entire movie with both projectors running.

You are unhappy with the general frame rate of motion pictures and prefer FRAME INTERPOLATION (Interpolation is a method of constructing new data points within the range of a discrete set of known data points.) which by definition is CREATING new frames where they otherwise DID NOT PREVIOUSLY EXIST, be aware of the distinction. If you like watching >50% FAKE frames compared to real ones, that's entirely your prerogative.

There is another, 3rd thing at play here though specifically between the JVC and Sony and that is Panel Refresh Rate, which is totally independent of motion resolution (This of this a little like the shutter speed in a camera). The Sony has a native 2.5ms refresh rate and the JVC is 4ms, both of those are WAY fast enough to display a frame at 24p natively at the same speed as each other, however the JVC uses a hold and release method (Not actually sure if the Sony also does) which can look slightly different to the Sony due to how each frame replaces the last.

DLP's have sub 1ms response times and can flash and release a frame almost instantaneously and as such look extremely natural. NONE OF THAT is motion resolution.
How exactly does this contradict anything I just said?

We both agree they are near identical natively. If not completely identical. NATIVELY.

I like FI. You do not. Options are good. Sony gives you viable options. JVC currently does not.

I didn't get into detail on the panel response times. You did. Kudos.

How exactly does this lead to me being confused? Because I like FI?

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post #313 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:02 PM
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For those that are interested in spurring a change, hit up JVC and JVC professional on Twitter. Public shaming works wonders in this day and age.
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post #314 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
it's also misleading to try and make it seem as if most people use frame interpolation. My poll shows that the majority of people don't use it and/or don't like what it does to the image. With 24p content, motion is rendered extremely close to what is captured on both the Sonys and JVCs. I've done A/B comparisons to DLP projectors to confirm this. If you want to view higher framerate material without FI, then you should be viewing on a DLP projector.

You act as if you are surprised by your poll showing the majority of people don't use FI. We all knew that the poll would show that, especially on a largely purist site like AVS.

What does surprise me slightly is just how many people actually do use and value good FI. Sitting at about 31% right now for those who consider it an important feature, this is obviously not an insignificant number.

Seegs, what I am trying to say is thank you for starting that poll as it only helps our cause here in this thread.
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post #315 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:09 PM
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I rehash it all the time because people like you conveniently like to forget to mention such things when trying to argue. The point I'm making is an important one when making such comparisons. Go ahead and list all the issues with the JVCs. None of them, even when combined, come close to the single issue of panel degradation. When the VW1200ES comes out (if it does) who's to say JVC won't have a new projector of it's own priced near it? You make it seem as if JVC will only have the RS4500 for the next 10 years and that new models won't come out. Right now the only Sony 4K laser built for dedicated home theater is the VW5000ES and JVCs unit is much cheaper MSRP-wise. But yes, the 5000ES is brighter, so if you have a larger screen it makes more sense. Let's not talk about price gouging until the projectors you're on about are actually real things. I could go on about hypotheticals all day like you, but when it comes down to it, JVC still has similarly equiped units in terms of feature-set and performance (lamp vs lamp and laser vs laser) priced less. This is why so many people buy them and also why they're so popular on the forum.

Keep running around in circles as usual. Answer the question. Is the RS4500 considered affordable at $36,000, IF as you stated the VW1100 was worth the $28,000 . Smoke and mirrors does not answer question.

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post #316 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:12 PM
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For those that are interested in spurring a change, hit up JVC and JVC professional on Twitter. Public shaming works wonders in this day and age.

Excellent, post the pictures on YouTube put the link on Twitter. Great idea, thanks. There you go @avmartain56 don't come off the gas pedal now.

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post #317 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:15 PM
 
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Keep running around in circles as usual. Answer the question. Is the RS4500 considered affordable at $36,000, IF as you stated the VW1100 was worth the $28,000 . Smoke and mirrors does not answer question.
There are no smoke and mirrors. Just pure unadulterated objective facts. As I pointed out, these two projectors are apple and oranges. You're simply wrong, plain and simple, as usual. "Affordable" is a purely subjective thing. It's all a matter of how you look at the market, what your needs are and how much you have to spend.
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post #318 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:15 PM
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For those that are interested in spurring a change, hit up JVC and JVC professional on Twitter. Public shaming works wonders in this day and age.
That is actually a great idea.

Get on it guys.

The Sony 5000ES 'Blue Balls' customers should be doing the same

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post #320 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Homie don't tweet.

Although it's funny you mention that. I got a TV replaced when I was getting the run around despite being under warranty by blogging about it in 2007...

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post #321 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:20 PM
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Keep running around in circles as usual. Answer the question. Is the RS4500 considered affordable at $36,000, IF as you stated the VW1100 was worth the $28,000 . Smoke and mirrors does not answer question.
Yep.

HDMI 2.0 / 18gbps boards / HDR / Full P3 coverage. Laser.

It will last as long as ten lamp changes on the 1100ES would if you actually got 3000 hours out of the Sony. Or, 30 lamp changes if you swapped them out at 1000 hours. 30x $500 is your cost difference right there.

The real question is, is the 5000ES worth $60k? When all it really has over the 4500 is lumens? To some people yes... Peoples opinions differ on the matter.

The supposed Sony 1200ES should be a great unit too, and I would also personally consider it if they can promise degradation has been truly solved, and they made some strides with the panels posterization and banding in all content. In fact, I WISH Sony has made strides here, I kid you not, I will be looking closely at it because I just may buy it if it impresses me so.

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post #322 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:21 PM
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How exactly does this contradict anything I just said?

We both agree they are near identical natively. If not completely identical. NATIVELY.

I like FI. You do not. Options are good. Sony gives you viable options. JVC currently does not.

I didn't get into detail on the panel response times. You did. Kudos.

How exactly does this lead to me being confused? Because I like FI?

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It's a purist notion that they know best. FI and sans film grain is , well for bloody amateurs without culture or any common sense . I like FI and don't like grain but I don't advocate one way or the doorway, or try to tell others what is best. Good thing, as I appear to be moving forward with the rest of the world but like to see options for everyone..... as usual.

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post #323 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:25 PM
 
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Answer the question. Is the RS4500 considered affordable at $36,000, IF as you stated the VW1100 was worth the $28,000 . Smoke and mirrors does not answer question.
I already answered your question in the post you quoted. I said yes because JVCs projector that has a similar feature-set and performance is considerably cheaper at $35000. I pointed out why the comparison to the 1100ES is a dumb one. Apples and oranges.
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post #324 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's a purist notion that they know best. FI and sans film grain is , well for bloody amateurs without culture or any common sense . I like FI and don't like grain but I don't advocate one way or the doorway, or try to tell others what is best. Good thing, as I appear to be moving forward with the rest of the world but like to see options for everyone..... as usual.
I watched Rogue One last night. I must admit the Star Destroyers looked more realistic in 24fps. With FI on they just looked...I don't know ...fake? Nothing like the attack ships I saw on fire off the shoulder of Orion. And with CMD enabled there was visible banding on the C-beams I watched glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate...

(Sarcasm off)

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post #325 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:36 PM
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I already answered your question in the post you quoted. I said yes because JVCs projector that has a similar feature-set and performance is considerably cheaper at $35000. I pointed out why the comparison to the 1100ES is a dumb one. Apples and oranges.

Not even close to the VW5000, that's in a different league . Last comparison YOU MADE was to the VW1100, that didn't work out now on to the VW5000 . That machine is a serious light cannon . The RS4500 is a wonderful projector but not in that league and more than one major reason why. The RS4500 has
modernization improvements and laser over the VW1100 and that is it.


In comparison the VW1100 was a deal for the price point, that makes the VW675 a steal.

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post #326 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I watched Rogue One last night. I must admit the Star Destroyers looked more realistic in 24fps. With FI on they just looked...I don't know ...fake? Nothing like the attack ships I saw on fire off the shoulder of Orion. And with CMD enabled there was visible banding on the C-beams I watched glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate...

(Sarcasm off)

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That scene in 3D is one of the best I have ever seen. The JVC black and 3D hang that destroyer in your theater for several seconds an absolute
WOW! moment . Bonus no banding .

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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Not even close to the VW5000, that's in a different league . Last comparison YOU MADE was to the VW1100, that didn't work out now on to the VW5000 . That machine is a serious light cannon . The RS4500 is a wonderful projector but not in that league and more than one major reason why. The RS4500 has
modernization improvements and laser over the VW1100 and that is it.


In comparison the VW1100 was a deal for the price point, that makes the VW675 a steal.
Why is the VW5000 in a different league? @ccool96 has already mentioned that when brightness matched the images looked indistinguishable from one another when he A/B'ed them. The Sony can fill a bigger screen. Contrast between the two is pretty close when you enable the laser dimming feature. Stop acting like you know what you're talking about from personal experience as if you've done an A/B between these. I trust someone like Chris who's done the proper comparison.
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post #328 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That scene in 3D is one of the best I have ever seen. The JVC black and 3D hang that destroyer in your theater for several seconds an absolute
WOW! moment . Bonus no banding .
But does it look like a REAL Star Destroyer? Like the one I saw hovering over Walmart the other day when I was purchasing my $100 TV with working FI? Asking for a purist friend of mine...

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post #329 of 2059 Old 04-05-2017, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
That scene in 3D is one of the best I have ever seen. The JVC black and 3D hang that destroyer in your theater for several seconds an absolute
WOW! moment . Bonus no banding .
I think you refer to the force awakens scene.


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But does it look like a REAL Star Destroyer? Like the one I saw hovering over Walmart the other day when I was purchasing my $100 TV with working FI? Asking for a purist friend of mine...
You know you lessen the integrity of your own thread by childish comments like this don't you?

Do you want this thread to be about facts and such or do you wish it to be just another bashing thread like your buddy started?

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