Discussion of the JVC CMD Vertical Banding issue and Fix Update (10/17) - Page 66 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1951 of 2059 Old 11-27-2017, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
Yes. I have tried just about everything to eliminate the issue including a factory reset, different picture settings, different HDMI cables, etc...

With that said I am willing to try any suggestions that I have not already tried.

Knight.
I'm sorry to hear you're having these issues. I've had the RS420 (without the cmd fix) since January and I've never had any issues with 4k/ low latency enabled. I have recently been recently thinking of upgrading to a closeout RS520, but I guess I better hold off for a bit. If you find a fix please let me know because it's a deal breaker for me as well. Thanks
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post #1952 of 2059 Old 11-27-2017, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Updated information:

JVC initiated a running production change on the RS420, RS520, RS620 and their counterpart models, correcting any CMD banding. Owners that purchased before this running production change, can send their projector into JVC to have this correction applied to their projector.


************************************************** *************************







Enabling JVC's brand of frame interpolation (Clear Motion Drive) results in visible vertical banding. The issue has been present for multiple generations and can be seen in the currently (as of this posting) shipping JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/X5000), JVC DLA-RS420 (DLA-X570R), JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000), and the JVC RS520/RS620 (X7500/X9500).

Per limited initial reports the JVC 4500 is NOT affected.

While I have not personally tested a 2016 model the issue is said to be much less noticeable with these units and reportedly can be mostly mitigated with MPC adjustments. The same can not be said for the 2017s. Update 4/17/17: Per JVC Customer Service the 2016 models are also affected. They didn't elaborate on the severity of the issue potentially differing from year to year.

Update 9/8/17: Per early reports out of CEDIA the issue has been resolved in the new models (RS440/540/640 and equivalents). RS420/520/620 (And equivalents) can be sent in for repair.

The issue is NOT present if CMD is disabled.

Functional frame interpolation is in my opinion something that should be a given at this price point. While purists may prefer to play back content without 'enhancement' I don't feel like the native motion resolution of a LCoS panel is sufficient for all usage.

I will be posting examples in this thread as I come upon them during normal viewing. The projector in my case is a RS420.

Hopefully we can provide JVC with enough information to address this issue. Please feel free to post additional examples as you find them and if possible provide the following:

Content being watched (For example disc name and timestamp).

Source (What model disc player etc).

Settings on the source (Output resolution....Deep Color etc)

Settings on the Projector (MPC, E -Shift, CMD High or Low).

Are there any other devices in the chain (AVR, Darbee etc).

Personally unless otherwise mentioned above I have not found a combination of settings that entirely removes the artifacts but I believe it is important to determine if any external factors are contributing to the problem.

I've attached an example of the issue from a previous thread. The banding is visible on the woman's face with CMD enabled. As mentioned above I will be providing additional examples in this thread as I see them and have time to make note of the time stamp / take pictures.
Will the correction mentioned by the thread starter apply to older models such as the HD-250PRO?
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post #1953 of 2059 Old 11-27-2017, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
Hi Karl,

If it helps, when I was testing on the JVC 550/420 demo that did not have the CMD fix I compared Low Latency OFF, CMD OFF and Motion Enhance OFF against Low Latency ON, CMD OFF and Motion Enhance OFF. With these settings on the JVC demo 550/420 I was not able to see any difference between judder/ghosting between Low Latency ON and Low Latency OFF. Just a reminder that in order to see it you need to view content that is panning or in games, strafing (moving your character from side to side)/turning. The ghosting/duplication will show in the anything that is not moving with the camera, so basically in the background. As an example: A hockey game or soccer game when panning across the field, players show as doubling during the pan. In games when strafing or turning the background will double quite bad leaving a very blurring looking image in most cases. In a racing game for example the cars in front of you will ghost/double as you turn from side to side. It is a little easier to test for in games because you have total control over the movement. If you put a sign or something that has a high contrast against the background right in front of you and move from side to side with Low Latency ON you should see the issue if it exists. See screenshot below (this was moving from side to side).

So basically if you do NOT have the issue you will see NO difference between the judder/ghosting between Low Latency ON and Low Latency OFF when both CMD and Motion Enhance are both OFF. If you DO have the issue you WILL see a significant increase in the judder/ghosting between Low Latency ON and Low Latency OFF when both CMD and Motion Enhance are both OFF.

Hope that helps.

Knight.
Has anybody posted seeing this when not playing a game? Like with sports?
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post #1954 of 2059 Old 11-27-2017, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Has anybody posted seeing this when not playing a game? Like with sports?
Yes.

There was a video posted a few pages back. I pulled screen grabs from it of the exact frames for comparison, there is indeed double/ghosting with Low Latency On after the CMD fix.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55091654

I use Low Latency a lot and I can safely say on a 9500 that does not have the CMD fix, this is not happening, also not on the 9900 either. That is pretty bad, I would notice that.

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post #1955 of 2059 Old 11-27-2017, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Yes.

There was a video posted a few pages back. I pulled screen grabs from it of the exact frames for comparison, there is indeed double/ghosting with Low Latency On after the CMD fix.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55091654

I use Low Latency a lot and I can safely say on a 9500 that does not have the CMD fix, this is not happening, also not on the 9900 either. That is pretty bad, I would notice that.
Here is the part that does not make sense. The CMD fix is the same on the 20 series as what is on the 40 series. You have a link, so I do not have to hunt for the video? Also was the video direct to the projector or through another device?
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post #1956 of 2059 Old 11-27-2017, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Here is the part that does not make sense. The CMD fix is the same on the 20 series as what is on the 40 series. You have a link, so I do not have to hunt for the video? Also was the video direct to the projector or through another device?
Well the 40 series is not broken, I know that for sure.

Did they not use a different CMD chipset this time around? I thought that was what was happening with the X40 models now?

Or, when they do the fix are they installing this new chipset too?

The video was in the link I directed you to, I quoted the post.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s9zwhtlp5p...07788.MP4?dl=0

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post #1957 of 2059 Old 11-27-2017, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Yes.

There was a video posted a few pages back. I pulled screen grabs from it of the exact frames for comparison, there is indeed double/ghosting with Low Latency On after the CMD fix.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55091654

I use Low Latency a lot and I can safely say on a 9500 that does not have the CMD fix, this is not happening, also not on the 9900 either. That is pretty bad, I would notice that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Here is the part that does not make sense. The CMD fix is the same on the 20 series as what is on the 40 series. You have a link, so I do not have to hunt for the video? Also was the video direct to the projector or through another device?
This was my video. It was direct to projector. I can reproduce the issue with low latency and eshift on with any panning content without failure. This issue is not a result of the signal going through an AVR. I would suspect there has to be some difference in eshift from the 420/520/620 to 440/540/640 as it is version eshift5 as opposed to version eshift4.

Mike, do you have access to a 420/520/620 with and without the CMD fix. I would love to have a couple hours with a 420/520/620 with and without the CMD fix and a new 440/540/640 for side by side comparison to test this issue.

I did test a 570/420 that did not have the CMD fix at a JVC dealer and the low latency issue was NOT present.

Knight.
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post #1958 of 2059 Old 11-27-2017, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
This was my video. It was direct to projector. I can reproduce the issue with low latency and eshift on with any panning content without failure. This issue is not a result of the signal going through an AVR. I would suspect there has to be some difference in eshift from the 420/520/620 to 440/540/640 as it is version eshift5 as opposed to version eshift4.

Mike, do you have access to a 420/520/620 with and without the CMD fix. I would love to have a couple hours with a 420/520/620 with and without the CMD fix and a new 440/540/640 for side by side comparison to test this issue.

I did test a 570/420 that did not have the CMD fix at a JVC dealer and the low latency issue was NOT present.

Knight.
I agree 100% with Knight's findings. This issue is easily replicated on my 620 regardless of content, source, and means of connecting to the projector (direct or via AVR). The only 2 settings required to reproduce the issue are eShift ON and Low Latency ON. It's really only a deal-breaker with 4k content because you can disable eShift on 1080p content without sacrificing much PQ, but just for kicks I was able to reproduce with 4k, 1080p, and 720p content from my PC.

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post #1959 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
This was my video. It was direct to projector. I can reproduce the issue with low latency and eshift on with any panning content without failure. This issue is not a result of the signal going through an AVR. I would suspect there has to be some difference in eshift from the 420/520/620 to 440/540/640 as it is version eshift5 as opposed to version eshift4.

Mike, do you have access to a 420/520/620 with and without the CMD fix. I would love to have a couple hours with a 420/520/620 with and without the CMD fix and a new 440/540/640 for side by side comparison to test this issue.

I did test a 570/420 that did not have the CMD fix at a JVC dealer and the low latency issue was NOT present.

Knight.
I looked at my new 420 that has the CMD fix and can verify what knight says. I see extreme ghosting with low latency on and eshift on.
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post #1960 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by remenakb View Post
I looked at my new 420 that has the CMD fix and can verify what knight says. I see extreme ghosting with low latency on and eshift on.
I've try lower refresh like 50 and 24 and I still see the ghosting by the way. Now let's hop they don't take too long to at least aknowlege the problem.

Guess I will be gaming in 1080p for now...

-Lunnar
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post #1961 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 07:16 AM
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Just a quick update on the low latency ghosting issue... I spoke with JVC Support (US) this morning and directed them to the forum videos. They are going to review them and try to reproduce the issue on their end and hopefully get back with me in the next day or so. I'll post any info I get here (since so far it seems to be caused by the CMD fix), unless someone thinks it should go in the main x20 owner's forum or in a new thread.

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post #1962 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 08:23 AM
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bugger i have just bought a x7500 (520) to game in 4K
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post #1963 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by FGEvans View Post
bugger i have just bought a x7500 (520) to game in 4K
That is one of the main reasons I upgraded my old Projector to the 770/520. Got it to go with my pre-ordered (at the time) XBOX ONE X to be ready for 4K gaming.

Knight.
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post #1964 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 10:20 AM
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Can someone provide a video that is not a game, showing the blur. How about a sporting event, showing the blur.
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post #1965 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 11:48 AM
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With all this talk about low latency and gaming blur what about regular 1080P & 4K movies?

I was about to send my X570/RS420 in for the CMD fix because I did see the banding a few times but it actually did not bother me much.

I did see some weird ghosting during the Planet Earth II disk with the birds flying around the city but that was with CMD on max and e-shift on.

Basically I leave low latency off, CMD on low and e-shift on all the time.
Should I still send it in for the fix?
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post #1966 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Can someone provide a video that is not a game, showing the blur. How about a sporting event, showing the blur.
Here ya go. Let me know if you want any other footage. I just want this to get fixed.

I have put the video into a zip file on dropbox to retain quality. Uploading videos directly to dropbox degrades the quality and makes it harder to see the issue. Also PLEASE NOTE the issue is much worse in person than you can capture in a video.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7s09jhhzzn...4.MOV.zip?dl=0

I am interested in your thoughts after you view the video.

Thanks,

Knight.

Last edited by Knightdriver; 11-28-2017 at 12:00 PM.
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post #1967 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by EricE View Post
With all this talk about low latency and gaming blur what about regular 1080P & 4K movies?

I was about to send my X570/RS420 in for the CMD fix because I did see the banding a few times but it actually did not bother me much.

I did see some weird ghosting during the Planet Earth II disk with the birds flying around the city but that was with CMD on max and e-shift on.

Basically I leave low latency off, CMD on low and e-shift on all the time.
Should I still send it in for the fix?
To be honest I would not send it in until this low latency issue gets resolved. To my eye the motion was a little worse after the CMD fix as well. Maybe that is related to the Low Latency issue (maybe low latency exaggerates the underlying issue) and once whatever is causing the low latency issue gets fixed the motion will be better.

Especially if the fix for Low latency ends up being a send in to JVC to either get another update or the CMD fix removed. I have all my fingers crossed that they can fix it with a firmware update that I can apply myself.

Personally I would find it easier to live with the banding in CMD than having Low Latency unusable/broken. Your call but that is my 2 cents.

knight.
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post #1968 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 01:19 PM
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@Knightdriver
I made some more tests this evening with low latency on (Martian UHD, some soccer, formula 1 racing and other tv programmes). If that had looked like your video I would have certainly noticed it. Sorry to say, but I can't reproduce it on my X9500.

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post #1969 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 02:48 PM
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Hi Karl,

Don't be sorry. I am glad you have a working as expected unit.

I assume you have confirmed the CMD fix has been applied to your projector and actually fixed the banding issue (basically ran a test scene with CMD on to verify banding was present before sending it in to get fixed and then re-ran the same test scene with CMD on verifying no banding after you got it back.)?

Also you are 100% sure you tested with ESHIFT and Low Latency both on? I only ask because sometimes when picture modes change these settings can be changed/affected as well without you noticing.

If your unit has the CMD fix applied with no more banding and you do not have the Low Latency issue that is potentially good news. Maybe we can have both working properly and JVC just needs to figure out what went wrong. So Karl, how do you feel about sending your projector to JVC so they can compare your internal systems against one that has the Low Latency issues?

That leaves a few facts and a few questions. Just some of my thoughts.

Facts:
  1. We have a number of people here who have the Low Latency issue on a projector that has the CMD fix.
  2. A couple of which used Low Latency mode WITHOUT the extreme ghosting before getting the CMD fix and only had the Low Latency issue after the CMD fix.
  3. At least one person who has a brand new unit that as far as we can tell (based on the info available) has the CMD fix pre-applied at factory that has the Low Latency issue.
  4. One person who tested a JVC demo 570/420 without the CMD fix and did NOT have the Low Latency issue.
  5. One person who has a unit that did get the CMD fix applied by JVC support and does not see the CMD banding or have the Low Latency issue.
  6. There have been NO reports from anyone with a non-CMD fixed projector having the Low Latency issue.

Questions:
  1. Are there other people out there that have the CMD fix applied that do NOT have the Low Latency issue?
  2. If we do indeed have some units that do NOT have the Low Latency issue after receiving the CMD fix does that mean there are variances in some components (maybe different suppliers for similar components) that cause the low latency issue to show up in some units but not others?
  3. Is it possible for a step to be missed during the CMD fix that could cause this issue? For example if multiple low level systems were updated but one was missed or didn't save properly.
  4. Is it possible the wrong CMD fix software/instructions were sent to some support centers while others have the correct stuff?

Knight.
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post #1970 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 02:52 PM
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I reported this in the other thread, but there's another issue with CMD with the CMD fix applied. CMD will sometimes say it is ON, but in actual fact it is OFF and it needs to be toggled off then on. This happens quite regularly when I switch the projector on.


For reference, I use the following settings:
Source: 4K SDR and 4K HDR
e-shift: on (of course)
Motion enhance: off
THX mode but it also happens on user modes


It's best to test and report this issue as well while we are at it or we're going to have a 3rd fix...
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post #1971 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
Here ya go. Let me know if you want any other footage. I just want this to get fixed.

I have put the video into a zip file on dropbox to retain quality. Uploading videos directly to dropbox degrades the quality and makes it harder to see the issue. Also PLEASE NOTE the issue is much worse in person than you can capture in a video.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7s09jhhzzn...4.MOV.zip?dl=0

I am interested in your thoughts after you view the video.

Thanks,

Knight.
This is a pretty good sample. And he is right, the effect on screen with your eyeballs is about twice as bad as what you are observing in this video. Imagine if you enabled that old mouse trail setting in Windows. It looks exactly like that, except its on objects moving all over the screen. I had another person over and they also witnessed the problem, even going so far as to say that it made them feel sick. The projector looks AMAZING with low latency off. Something is horribly wrong here with low latency mode.
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post #1972 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
To be honest I would not send it in until this low latency issue gets resolved. To my eye the motion was a little worse after the CMD fix as well. Maybe that is related to the Low Latency issue (maybe low latency exaggerates the underlying issue) and once whatever is causing the low latency issue gets fixed the motion will be better.

Especially if the fix for Low latency ends up being a send in to JVC to either get another update or the CMD fix removed. I have all my fingers crossed that they can fix it with a firmware update that I can apply myself.

Personally I would find it easier to live with the banding in CMD than having Low Latency unusable/broken. Your call but that is my 2 cents.

knight.
When did the RS520s start shipping with the CMD fix? In other words, what would be the window that a used RS520 would be "safe" from coming with the CMD fix?
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post #1973 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
Here ya go. Let me know if you want any other footage. I just want this to get fixed.

I have put the video into a zip file on dropbox to retain quality. Uploading videos directly to dropbox degrades the quality and makes it harder to see the issue. Also PLEASE NOTE the issue is much worse in person than you can capture in a video.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7s09jhhzzn...4.MOV.zip?dl=0

I am interested in your thoughts after you view the video.

Thanks,

Knight.
Thanks, sending to my JVC rep.

Added
Just downloaded and looked at the video. Does not look good. Can you provide details, as in what equipment is being used?

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 11-28-2017 at 05:31 PM.
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post #1974 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:28 PM
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Mike,
do you happen to know when last years models (620, 520, 420) first started shipping with the fix? It looks to be pretty recent, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks
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post #1975 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbn008 View Post
Mike,
do you happen to know when last years models (620, 520, 420) first started shipping with the fix? It looks to be pretty recent, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks
I asked this a while back and could not get an exact date, but I think it happened in August or late July.
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post #1976 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I asked this a while back and could not get an exact date, but I think it happened in August or late July.
thank you
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post #1977 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I asked this a while back and could not get an exact date, but I think it happened in August or late July.
Thanks for taking a look, Mike. Here is another video. I also put these in a .zip file to prevent them from being re-converted. I tried to capture similar scenes with low latency on/off. The videos are named as such. The effect of ghosting is still much more pronounced in person. In the "low latency off" sample, normal loss of motion resolution during panning (that I would expect) is visible. What I'm seeing on the "low latency on" sample is something else entirely. Sorry, I'm not a very good pilot while holding a camera.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PR...Kx3hROdwbXZrxf

What I see is like if you had several frames:

A B C D

Each frame is supposed to exist in time for 16.67ms, but what happens appears something more like this:

Code:
1        2        3        4        5
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA    
         BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
                  CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
                            DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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post #1978 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Can someone provide a video that is not a game, showing the blur. How about a sporting event, showing the blur.
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Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
Here ya go. Let me know if you want any other footage. I just want this to get fixed.

I have put the video into a zip file on dropbox to retain quality. Uploading videos directly to dropbox degrades the quality and makes it harder to see the issue. Also PLEASE NOTE the issue is much worse in person than you can capture in a video.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7s09jhhzzn...4.MOV.zip?dl=0

I am interested in your thoughts after you view the video.

Thanks,

Knight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post
This is a pretty good sample. And he is right, the effect on screen with your eyeballs is about twice as bad as what you are observing in this video. Imagine if you enabled that old mouse trail setting in Windows. It looks exactly like that, except its on objects moving all over the screen. I had another person over and they also witnessed the problem, even going so far as to say that it made them feel sick. The projector looks AMAZING with low latency off. Something is horribly wrong here with low latency mode.
Here is the same hockey clip in slow motion (240fps). You can clearly see that everything moving exactly with the camera looks perfectly fine (scoreboard at the top of the screen for example) but anything not moving with the camera has a jerky movement to it. Like someone else already mentioned. It's as if eshift is a frame or two behind. Please be warmed this clip is almost 700MB in size and is zipped to retain video quality. But the video is worth a watch if you are experiencing the issue or are just curious.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/euvgqvtgto...3.MOV.zip?dl=0

Here is another video explaining what I noticed which is like 2 steps forward 1 step back. You can see it yourself if you advance the slow motion clip above by one frame at a time. Hopefully this will help the JVC folks figure out the issue and create a fix for it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8ws9jspsp...2.MOV.zip?dl=0

Knight.
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post #1979 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Thanks, sending to my JVC rep.

Added
Just downloaded and looked at the video. Does not look good. Can you provide details, as in what equipment is being used?
I have a x770RB (RS520) that I purchased in September. I can reproduce the issue using any input device. I have replicated it straight to the projector from my Cable box, Apple TV 4K, XBOX ONE X and Sony DVD player. The only thing you need in order to replicate it is both Eshift and Low Latency turned ON. I only had my projector for a couple of weeks before sending it in to JVC for the CMD fix. So my unit does have the CMD fix on it and has been confirmed to have no banding since the CMD fix was applied.

There is also a tear on the top part of the video that also only shows when Eshift and Low Latency is on. It is a very small band across the top that does not suffer from the same ghosting. Basically the video above the tear looks and moves fine when both eshift and low latency is on but what is below is jerky. See attached screenshot to see the very small band across the top I am referring to. I can provide a better video that shows that as well if you need.

I am hoping the smart folks at JVC can figure this out and fix it.

Thanks,

Knight.
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Last edited by Knightdriver; 11-28-2017 at 06:12 PM.
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post #1980 of 2059 Old 11-28-2017, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightdriver View Post
Here is another video explaining what I noticed which is like 2 steps forward 1 step back. You can see it yourself if you advance the slow motion clip above by one frame at a time. Hopefully this will help the JVC folks figure out the issue and create a fix for it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8ws9jspsp...2.MOV.zip?dl=0

Knight.
After watching your video, I think you're right. The frames are overlapping somehow. Here's another link that is 120FPS slow-mo. You can see how the object in motion is jerking forward and backward in time. The plane in motion is briefly returning to an older frame and then jumping forward.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1T1...4_a2F1lUejM-Ja
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