Dolby Vision coming to front projectors? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 88 Old 05-11-2017, 03:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thx1138uk View Post
......The demonstrations I've seen so far using HDR10 on Epson home cinema projectors (bulb not laser) from UHD Blu-ray, have all been disappointingly dark due to the headroom reserved for HDR highlights....

Regards,

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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
.....The Epson projector does not have enough light output with the filter engauged. HDR looks pretty good on the Sony 4K projectors. it also looks pretty good on all of the JVC projectors. Can look pretty good on the Epson, if you do not use the WCG filter. Of course, it also depends on screen size, screen gain and throw distance of the projector.
Apparently you two need a HarperVision Lesson. See the links below my signature for the lesson plan and itinerary!

Mike, you of all people should really try this out on an Epson 5040/6040UB or LS10x00! It would help you and AVS probably sell a ton more of them once your clients see HDR with it and start talking about it here and elsewhere.
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post #32 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Apparently you two need a HarperVision Lesson. See the links below my signature for the lesson plan and itinerary!

Mike, you of all people should really try this out on an Epson 5040/6040UB or LS10x00! It would help you and AVS probably sell a ton more of them once your clients see HDR with it and start talking about it here and elsewhere.
I believe you are running the Epson without the DCI P3 filter in place, that solves the light output problem of the 5040. That is all I was talking about, when the poster said it was too dark.
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post #33 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 05:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I believe you are running the Epson without the DCI P3 filter in place, that solves the light output problem of the 5040. That is all I was talking about, when the poster said it was too dark.
No, that isn't true. Much of the point of doing this was to get HDR bt2020 on SDR 4K displays. My settings are in the Digital Cinema mode, which engages the filter and it is heard moving into place. Please read the links, it's all there.
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post #34 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
No, that isn't true. Much of the point of doing this was to get HDR bt2020 on SDR 4K displays. My settings are in the Digital Cinema mode, which engages the filter and it is heard moving into place. Please read the links, it's all there.
What are you getting in the way of lumens? How would running SDR mode, but with filter in place give you a lot more lumens than HDR mode with filter in place? The filter cuts a lot of light output on the Epson, so I do not understand how you can get that light back, using SDR? The filter cuts about 40% of the light.
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post #35 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 06:30 AM
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As an owner of a projector (Sony VW675ES), I presume I should then ignore the DV mania for processor pass through, firmware updates to pass dynamic metadata, blu-ray players and processors that will not be upgraded, and even HDMI 2.1? that has overcome most threads.
Well...for my next TV, maybe not.

Theater: Lyngdorf MP-50 7.3.4, Sony VW675ES, Revel Ultima Salon2/Voice2/Gem2(4)/Paradigm Be Atmos (4), Mark Levinson amps (53 L/R, 532 Center biamped, 531H side/surrounds), Atmos amp: Sherbourn, Oppo 203, Roku Ultra Premier+, DTV 4k, Velodyne 1812 Signature (LFE), Velodyne DD-15.
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post #36 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by normandia View Post
As an owner of a projector (Sony VW675ES), I presume I should then ignore the DV mania for processor pass through, firmware updates to pass dynamic metadata, blu-ray players and processors that will not be upgraded, and even HDMI 2.1? that has overcome most threads.
Well...for my next TV, maybe not.
Correct, DV for your TV, it will be a nice feature.

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post #37 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by normandia View Post
As an owner of a projector (Sony VW675ES), I presume I should then ignore the DV mania for processor pass through, firmware updates to pass dynamic metadata, blu-ray players and processors that will not be upgraded, and even HDMI 2.1? that has overcome most threads.
Well...for my next TV, maybe not.
Dynamic Metadata is not the same thing as Dolby Vision. While DV includes it's own Dynamic Metadata, HDMI 2.1 brings Dynamic Metadata without DV (supposedly).
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post #38 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 06:50 AM
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Correct, but this still won't likely be processed by the projector.
Besides, my next TV will also need ATSC 3.0...

Theater: Lyngdorf MP-50 7.3.4, Sony VW675ES, Revel Ultima Salon2/Voice2/Gem2(4)/Paradigm Be Atmos (4), Mark Levinson amps (53 L/R, 532 Center biamped, 531H side/surrounds), Atmos amp: Sherbourn, Oppo 203, Roku Ultra Premier+, DTV 4k, Velodyne 1812 Signature (LFE), Velodyne DD-15.
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post #39 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by normandia View Post
Correct, but this still won't likely be processed by the projector.
Why's that? Most current projectors do HDR10, I don't see why future ones won't do HDR10+ (Dynamic Metadata). The problems with DV on projector are not fundamentally technical issues it's a political/Dolby/licensing issue. Dolby doesn't appear to be interested in developing DV for home projectors, and it won't happen until they change their mind.

Of course I still haven't heard an explanation of why Dynamic Metadata is good, or how it will fix things. Even the static metadata today is not of much use. About the only use for it today (if it were consistently correct), is to automatically set the hard clipping point for peak white.
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post #40 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 09:59 AM
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Perhaps I don't quite understand the 10.2Gb limitation (on my HDR-10 projector and my current processor). Doesn't dynamic metadata require greater bandwidth (than 4k HDR) whether DV, HDMI 2.1 or HDR-10+? or are firmware updates possible (likely depends upon device, of course).

Theater: Lyngdorf MP-50 7.3.4, Sony VW675ES, Revel Ultima Salon2/Voice2/Gem2(4)/Paradigm Be Atmos (4), Mark Levinson amps (53 L/R, 532 Center biamped, 531H side/surrounds), Atmos amp: Sherbourn, Oppo 203, Roku Ultra Premier+, DTV 4k, Velodyne 1812 Signature (LFE), Velodyne DD-15.
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post #41 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 10:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normandia View Post
Perhaps I don't quite understand the 10.2Gb limitation (on my HDR-10 projector and my current processor). Doesn't dynamic metadata require greater bandwidth (than 4k HDR) whether DV, HDMI 2.1 or HDR-10+? or are firmware updates possible (likely depends upon device, of course).
Compared to the raw video data the metadata is not bandwidth heavy. The 10.2Gbps limitation isn't an HDMI version issue but rather an issue with how much of the HDMI version standard manufacturers want to adopt with their products. Think of it like 4G LTE instead of full on 4G. It's still 4G just not the full speed that full on 4G offers but still adheres to how the 4G protocol works. The newer versions of HDMI add in the proper protocol on how the metadata is transferred from source to end point where it can be utilized by the display. They aren't adding bandwidth throughput specifically for this metadata as far as I'm aware.
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post #42 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 01:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
What are you getting in the way of lumens? How would running SDR mode, but with filter in place give you a lot more lumens than HDR mode with filter in place? The filter cuts a lot of light output on the Epson, so I do not understand how you can get that light back, using SDR? The filter cuts about 40% of the light.

It's not giving any higher peak whites. The top and bottom ends I would think stay pretty much the same. It's basically tone mapping the mids and everything everyone complains about that's too dim with HDR on projectors. It's similar to tone mapping in the player to get SDR BT2020 like folks do with an HDFury, except with this you keep the full HDR bt2020 signal instead of stripping the HDR off.

Once I get the replacement I'll be able to do some numbers checking. I see you asked in the Epson thread too, so maybe someone like Florian @Soulnight or @DavidHir can chime in with their numbers?

I guess in the end, it's just a better way of tone mapping on projectors than what's done in the source devices like UHD Bluray players, since projectors have their own special needs when it comes to displaying HDR properly, as we all know.
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post #43 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
It's not giving any higher peak whites. The top and bottom ends I would think stay pretty much the same. It's basically tone mapping the mids and everything everyone complains about that's too dim with HDR on projectors. It's similar to tone mapping in the player to get SDR BT2020 like folks do with an HDFury, except with this you keep the full HDR bt2020 signal instead of stripping the HDR off.

Once I get the replacement I'll be able to do some numbers checking. I see you asked in the Epson thread too, so maybe someone like Florian @Soulnight or @DavidHir can chime in with their numbers?

I guess in the end, it's just a better way of tone mapping on projectors than what's done in the source devices like UHD Bluray players, since projectors have their own special needs when it comes to displaying HDR properly, as we all know.
I was asking about the 5040, not the laser model Epson. Reason I asked, the 5040 in Digital Cinema mode with P3 filter in place only gave around 700 lumens.
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post #44 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 02:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I was asking about the 5040, not the laser model Epson. Reason I asked, the 5040 in Digital Cinema mode with P3 filter in place only gave around 700 lumens.
Oh OK, thanks for clarifying. I don't know why I thought you were talking about the laser units. Probably because that's what's been in the forefront of my thoughts lately.

It definitely appears much brighter than 700 lumens to the eye. Those are interesting questions you bring up then. I will have to investigate and get back to you. I do hear the filter engage though. I do still have the 5040 here, but I don't know for how much longer.
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post #45 of 88 Old 05-12-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Oh OK, thanks for clarifying. I don't know why I thought you were talking about the laser units. Probably because that's what's been in the forefront of my thoughts lately.

It definitely appears much brighter than 700 lumens to the eye. Those are interesting questions you bring up then. I will have to investigate and get back to you. I do hear the filter engage though. I do still have the 5040 here, but I don't know for how much longer.
The laser version has little light loss, so it does better with filter in place than the 5040, even though the laser starts off with less light.
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post #46 of 88 Old 06-02-2017, 12:43 AM
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People keep saying that HDR10 goes to 4,000 nits and Dolby Vision goes to 10,000. This is false - HDR10 also goes to 10,000 nits. Put in your Ghostbusters UHD (a must own), in the menu enter SONY (7669) on your remote, and at the 3:30'ish (from memory) mark see brightness ramps going to 10,000 nits. My Oppo 203 also reports that the clip itself is mastered to 10,000 nits. I get that no current UHD in HDR10 is mastered beyond 4,000 nits but that's got nothing to do with HDR10.

By the way, HarperVision is the real deal. I swear by it on my Epson EH-TW9300 (6040).

And let me also add that SDR tone-mapping on the Epson goes into the mid K nits in terms of headroom. It's quite something. The SDR tone mapping on this projector (via HarperVision, though I have modified it to give more mid-range punch) is something else - no blowouts at all, even the Universal logo theme is fully preserved as the sun goes behind the earth.

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post #47 of 88 Old 06-02-2017, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Cordingley View Post
People keep saying that HDR10 goes to 4,000 nits and Dolby Vision goes to 10,000.
I haven't seen anybody saying that. Now there's a lot of talk that some titles only go to 4000 nits (and most only go to 1200, or maybe it's about half and half), but that's a different issue.
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post #48 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Yes, good points. Maybe they could offer something like this farmed out to ISF and THX Certified Calibrators who have to go to a special class that can be held at shows like CES and CEDIA, etc. to learn how to install and setup this sensor system. Then Dolby can control the sale to those calibrators so they can personally take it with them and do the setup in the client's home. They could also offer it for sale to regular folks like on AVS, but then with no guarantee of performance at an "at your own risk" type of sale. Or have some sort of PC program or app that allows it to interface with a Dolby rep or one of these trained techs to do a sort of "remote setup" on it to ensure it's done properly.

Sorry, just trying to brainstorm. I am sure if a buck can be made, someone will come up with something!
Still does not get you around the problem of a customer that does not have enough brightness to get DV to work properly on his system. Then that guy goes on a forum and says, "I paid $500 to have a calibrator calibrate and setup DV on my projector. It does not look any better than HDR10. "
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post #49 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 12:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Still does not get you around the problem of a customer that does not have enough brightness to get DV to work properly on his system. Then that guy goes on a forum and says, "I paid $500 to have a calibrator calibrate and setup DV on my projector. It does not look any better than HDR10. "

Wow, digging up an oldy and moldy one there, Mike! Just getting caught up?

But to answer your question, that's why I said an "at your own risk type of sale". If everyone knows this going in then it can be questioned by people like from here at AVS that will call them out and ask if they made sure they had enough lumens to do it justice. The calibrator should certainly at least mention this to the end user at minimum.
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post #50 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Wow, digging up an oldy and moldy one there, Mike! Just getting caught up?

But to answer your question, that's why I said an "at your own risk type of sale". If everyone knows this going in then it can be questioned by people like from here at AVS that will call them out and ask if they made sure they had enough lumens to do it justice. The calibrator should certainly at least mention this to the end user at minimum.
Sorry. It was one I typed up a response to a while back and got tied up and never posted. So thought I would send it out. There is use at your own risk and then there is use at the risk of causing Dolby loss of sales due to bad word of mouth. We have all seen how the internet can give anyone a large voice.
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post #51 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 01:52 PM
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Dolby Vision coming to front projectors?

I mean, Dolby is giving their approval to TCL, don't seem as if they're that dedicated to quality, or perhaps those new models are suddenly at a whole new division...? How much 'damage' can be done giving us hi-end projector folks access and rather providing us with our own 'peak' bright and 'bottom black' setting if we don't like the defaults; for example small, medium or large screen?? As long as these limits are adjustable, and set pretty accurate, dynamic metadata would apply appropriately right?


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post #52 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 02:47 PM
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Can someone post a link to lumens measurements for the 5040?

What thread has some good measurements...

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post #53 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I haven't seen anybody saying that. Now there's a lot of talk that some titles only go to 4000 nits (and most only go to 1200, or maybe it's about half and half), but that's a different issue.
How do I figure out to what level the movies are mastered? I would like to know for creating two presets on my Lumagen for HDR intensity mapping.
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post #54 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Can someone post a link to lumens measurements for the 5040?

What thread has some good measurements...
There these measurements -
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...ration-results
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post #55 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Yup, read all the reviews already, meant in the forums.

It is very similar to the JVC in brightness since you no longer have to use the filter, however it does have more powerful dynamic and torch modes than the JVC.

Anyhow, based on averaging 4 reviews, the Epson's lumens look like below.

From Mid-Zoom:

MFR Rated: 2500
Best (Low) 1200
Best (High) 1800
Dynamic(High) 2400
Torch Mode (Green) 2600

The loss of light is 30% between closest throw and farthest.

Therefore, at Closest Throw it looks about / approx. like this:

Best (Low) 1400
Best (High) 2000
Dynamic (High) 2,800
Torch Mode = 3,000


This is based on NOT using the filter, so you could calibrate NATURAL mode for a BEST mode instead of Cinema mode (from my understanding).

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Last edited by coderguy; 06-23-2017 at 04:23 PM.
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post #56 of 88 Old 06-23-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The laser version has little light loss, so it does better with filter in place than the 5040, even though the laser starts off with less light.
The filter is no longer necessary for Rec709 on the Epson 5040ub /6040ub (tw9300 for europe), this is because of the way Epson expanded the natural range of the color gamut even BEFORE the filter is engaged, hence calibrating the 5040 while maintaining lumens should be a lot easier than previous Epsons. The purpose of this filter is now VERY different than on the previous Epsons, this filter is now really solely for DCI-P3, and offers no improvement for sat tracking of rec709 (like was part of the point in the older models). So given that most of the new PJ's cannot do HDR and DCI perfectly without some hacking (other than maybe the latest JVC's), then I think it's only fair that since with external tone mapping, it should be assumed that you can still get great color WITHOUT the filter even when using HDR or modes like the DCI-P3, that is as long as you have the necessary workaround in place.

Cine4 Article:
https://translate.google.com/transla...t/&prev=search

This is from my understanding of the Cine4 article... The point being, you can get good color at 1200 lumens best mode/low lamp. You just calibrate living room (or natural) instead of cinema and you have best mode lumens equivalent of the JVC. There did not appear to be any major side effects to the saturation tracking or general calibration using some of these other non-filtered modes (unlike in previous years), but that's why I asked to see other numbers from this forum to double check it.

Anyhow, even with the filter in place using Cinema mode, the mid-zoom lumens should be around 800 on low lamp best mode, about 1000 at closest throw. My conclusion is that the filter isn't even necessary for the enhanced color modes either if you use similar workarounds that people are already using with other projectors, hence the filter is really just for DCI convenience to not have to use external tone mapping (or at least not as much tone mapping), but similar options exist to maintain the higher lumens by using known workarounds.

The applicable part of the Cine4 article is as such (tricky read, very carefully):

"Let us recall briefly the results of the predecessor: in the living room mode (with slight reasons) reaches this 1600 lumen with a contrast of 7000: 1 (EH-TW7200: 1400: 1), remain perfectly calibrated (because of the necessary Cinema-Fiters ) Is only about 800 lumens, also at slightly more than 7000: 1 native contrast.

Since the TW9300 does not require a filter for the HD color space and has a little more output brightness, the brightness yield is significantly higher with perfect colors."

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Last edited by coderguy; 06-23-2017 at 07:07 PM.
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post #57 of 88 Old 06-24-2017, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
How do I figure out to what level the movies are mastered? I would like to know for creating two presets on my Lumagen for HDR intensity mapping.
There's a google sheet floating around, I think it's linked somewhere in the RS600 thread, with the metadata decoded for a lot of discs. However it's my understanding, unless something changed, that the Lumagen reads that metadata and adjusts the Intensity Mapping parameters based on the metadata, so you shouldn't need to manually create presets?

Also, I tried making a second curve that clips at 1200 instead of 4000 nits, and frankly I couldn't hardly tell a difference.
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post #58 of 88 Old 06-24-2017, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The filter is no longer necessary for Rec709 on the Epson 5040ub /6040ub (tw9300 for europe), this is because of the way Epson expanded the natural range of the color gamut even BEFORE the filter is engaged, hence calibrating the 5040 while maintaining lumens should be a lot easier than previous Epsons. The purpose of this filter is now VERY different than on the previous Epsons, this filter is now really solely for DCI-P3, and offers no improvement for sat tracking of rec709 (like was part of the point in the older models). So given that most of the new PJ's cannot do HDR and DCI perfectly without some hacking (other than maybe the latest JVC's), then I think it's only fair that since with external tone mapping, it should be assumed that you can still get great color WITHOUT the filter even when using HDR or modes like the DCI-P3, that is as long as you have the necessary workaround in place.

Cine4 Article:
https://translate.google.com/transla...t/&prev=search

This is from my understanding of the Cine4 article... The point being, you can get good color at 1200 lumens best mode/low lamp. You just calibrate living room (or natural) instead of cinema and you have best mode lumens equivalent of the JVC. There did not appear to be any major side effects to the saturation tracking or general calibration using some of these other non-filtered modes (unlike in previous years), but that's why I asked to see other numbers from this forum to double check it.

Anyhow, even with the filter in place using Cinema mode, the mid-zoom lumens should be around 800 on low lamp best mode, about 1000 at closest throw. My conclusion is that the filter isn't even necessary for the enhanced color modes either if you use similar workarounds that people are already using with other projectors, hence the filter is really just for DCI convenience to not have to use external tone mapping (or at least not as much tone mapping), but similar options exist to maintain the higher lumens by using known workarounds.

The applicable part of the Cine4 article is as such (tricky read, very carefully):

"Let us recall briefly the results of the predecessor: in the living room mode (with slight reasons) reaches this 1600 lumen with a contrast of 7000: 1 (EH-TW7200: 1400: 1), remain perfectly calibrated (because of the necessary Cinema-Fiters ) Is only about 800 lumens, also at slightly more than 7000: 1 native contrast.

Since the TW9300 does not require a filter for the HD color space and has a little more output brightness, the brightness yield is significantly higher with perfect colors."

--- Cine4Home.de
The conversation I was replying to was lumens with DCI P3 color filter in place. The 5040 loses a ton of lumens with filter in place and the 10500 does not lose very many lumens with DCI P3 filter in place. For Rec709, the 5040 is quite a bit brighter than the 10500.
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post #59 of 88 Old 06-24-2017, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The conversation I was replying to was lumens with DCI P3 color filter in place. The 5040 loses a ton of lumens with filter in place and the 10500 does not lose very many lumens with DCI P3 filter in place. For Rec709, the 5040 is quite a bit brighter than the 10500.
True, but my point is almost all these projectors require hacks to do everything to spec, except the newest JVC's. So you don't really need the filter anymore than any other PJ that doesn't fully support the true DCI P3 native mapping, right or no?

I guess if comparing either that particular Epson model or the newest JVC's, then it is somewhat fair to say, well the Epson might not have enough brightness, but that's only true if you even use the filter, hence again not really an absolute requirement.

I wonder how many have A/B'd the wider gamut of DCI vs. a remapped image to a narrower gamut, and I wonder how much difference there really is. From my (although admittedly limited) understanding of DCI (I haven't messed with it personally), but I've read it mostly affects the RED areas of the gamut, unless that was incorrect. Now obviously it is a lot simpler to not have to do things externally, but people in here seem to love to implement hacks anyways.

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
True, but my point is almost all these projectors require hacks to do everything to spec, except the newest JVC's. So you don't really need the filter anymore than any other PJ that doesn't fully support the true DCI P3 native mapping, right or no?

I guess if comparing either that particular Epson model or the newest JVC's, then it is somewhat fair to say, well the Epson might not have enough brightness, but that's only true if you even use the filter, hence again not really an absolute requirement.

I wonder how many have A/B'd the wider gamut of DCI vs. a remapped image to a narrower gamut, and I wonder how much difference there really is. From my (although admittedly limited) understanding of DCI (I haven't messed with it personally), but I've read it mostly affects the RED areas of the gamut, unless that was incorrect. Now obviously it is a lot simpler to not have to do things externally, but people in here seem to love to implement hacks anyways.
Agree the difference is not large. Affects green the most.
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