Dolby Vision coming to front projectors? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 90 Old 04-23-2017, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Dolby Vision coming to front projectors?

The title can says it all, I haven't seen any comments about this but am curious if anyone has any idea if it's coming and what timeframe for a projector in say the $3-$4K range.
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post #2 of 90 Old 04-23-2017, 04:30 PM
 
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I'm sure we won't see anything official on the matter until CEDIA. The only projector I can think of that's already out that might support it via software (or possibly hardware) change is the 5000ES as it was advertised to have modular I/O and would be updated regularly to support UHD BD standards as they continue to develop and get released.
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post #3 of 90 Old 04-23-2017, 04:49 PM
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I ask this same question in the JVC rs400, x550 thread and this is what Mike Garrett said No. Standards for DV on home front projectors have not be set yet. Will require more than what flat panel display need. We may never get it in the front projector world. You would need a sensor and a test pattern built into the front projector and a way to get screen size feed into the system, so that projector could calculate what it is working with. Flat panels do not have these same problems. At least not to the same extent.

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post #4 of 90 Old 04-23-2017, 05:37 PM
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I have no inside information but I have a feeling the next round of projectors from Sony and JVC will do Dolby Vision, or at least the top end model will (at least I hope).
For some it's not necessarily about just meeting the specifications but also about compatibility. I stream some movies on VUDU and it does Dolby Vision or no HDR and we have yet to see how DV will possibility default to HDR10.
Then again who knows, time will tell.
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post #5 of 90 Old 04-24-2017, 08:23 AM
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I think we are a few YEARS out before we see ANYTHING DV related from projectors at a minimum, if ever. Everyone I know that has dealt with Dolby has said they haven't even started looking at projectors yet and trying to implement their system on projectors would be far more difficult than HDR10 implementation, and you see how well that is going already.

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post #6 of 90 Old 04-24-2017, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post
I ask this same question in the JVC rs400, x550 thread and this is what Mike Garrett said No. Standards for DV on home front projectors have not be set yet. Will require more than what flat panel display need. We may never get it in the front projector world. You would need a sensor and a test pattern built into the front projector and a way to get screen size feed into the system, so that projector could calculate what it is working with. Flat panels do not have these same problems. At least not to the same extent.
I have wondered why projector manufacturers don't have something like this already.
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post #7 of 90 Old 04-24-2017, 11:04 AM
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I think it comes down to cost and hardware issues.

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post #8 of 90 Old 04-24-2017, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jsil View Post
I think it comes down to cost and hardware issues.
Agreed. FWIW, I enjoy HDR on my 2017 JVC projector and wonder how much better DV would be.

And then we have HDR 10+ which seems an awful like DV to me...
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post #9 of 90 Old 04-24-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
I have wondered why projector manufacturers don't have something like this already.
Because DV needs to know how bright the display is to work. Possible on a flat panel TV display - it's a known number. Projector / screen combos - not so easy.
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post #10 of 90 Old 04-24-2017, 06:07 PM
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From a technical level, I just don't see why it's so hard. Why not just provide a calibration option on the projector where a "calibrator" could enter a measured peak white value? Sure you need equipment to do that, but it's not unprecedented, the same thing is true of white balance and grayscale. There are a number of examples of existing functionality that takes external equipment to properly calibrate.

Of course on the flip side, I definitely understand Dolby's "political" reasons for not liking that solution, namely they aren't able to control/guarantee the result, which is a very big deal for Dolby.

Of course, that brings us to another question:

Why is Dolby Vision and/or Dynamic Metadata thought/expected to be a great improvement in quality? OK, I get that HDR10 is the wild west, where as Dolby has a spec for how to tone map, so that would help with the consistency of the results, and would help reduce/eliminate bad implementations (caugh Gamma D). But I've not been able to find a technical or detailed explanation about why/how dynamic metadata is supposed to fix everything? To me it just seems like it will add a new layer of complexity to a system that few have figured out so far.
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post #11 of 90 Old 04-25-2017, 08:17 AM
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Dolby Vision would not only know the peek white level of the display for proper tone mapping, but also the measured black level as well. It also has all the data per frame so would be ideal for a dynamic contrast system (laser or iris) for adjusting on a frame by frame basis the APL. I realize there are ways to tell something these levels, but you have to remember mass implementation can't rely on some calibrator telling it something at some point. Dolby would want that mode to kick on from minute 1 of use for anything input that is encoded as Dolby Vision, and since it doesn't know those variables (and the variation from unit to unit could be MASSIVE here) it puts them in a tough spot. Most Dolby Vision displays allow ZERO adjustment once they go in that mode, and I could see them wanting to do the same thing here. Again, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we never see DV support in projectors at all.

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post #12 of 90 Old 04-25-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
From a technical level, I just don't see why it's so hard. Why not just provide a calibration option on the projector where a "calibrator" could enter a measured peak white value? Sure you need equipment to do that, but it's not unprecedented, the same thing is true of white balance and grayscale. There are a number of examples of existing functionality that takes external equipment to properly calibrate.

Of course on the flip side, I definitely understand Dolby's "political" reasons for not liking that solution, namely they aren't able to control/guarantee the result, which is a very big deal for Dolby.

Of course, that brings us to another question:

Why is Dolby Vision and/or Dynamic Metadata thought/expected to be a great improvement in quality? OK, I get that HDR10 is the wild west, where as Dolby has a spec for how to tone map, so that would help with the consistency of the results, and would help reduce/eliminate bad implementations (caugh Gamma D). But I've not been able to find a technical or detailed explanation about why/how dynamic metadata is supposed to fix everything? To me it just seems like it will add a new layer of complexity to a system that few have figured out so far.
Because lots of things sound great " in theory ". The devil is always in the details. I take a wait and see attitude. But no matter how great it may work on a flat panel TV, I'm never going to have a TV in my home theater - that isn't " theater " IMO. So it's sort of a moot point anyway. And right now, I've got HDR10 with my Panasonic UB900 and it's new firmware working quite well. I can't say I'm displeased with HDR compared to a year ago !
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post #13 of 90 Old 04-25-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Dolby Vision would not only know the peek white level of the display for proper tone mapping, but also the measured black level as well. It also has all the data per frame so would be ideal for a dynamic contrast system (laser or iris) for adjusting on a frame by frame basis the APL.
So I get where static metadata is useful (in theory), you can know, for example, that you don't have to try to retain all 10,000 nits in a calibration, when no content in a given movie will go over 1100. Lumagen is doing this with their Intensity Mapping function, automatically adjusting the bounds, but this causes problems when the metadata isn't correct. However I don't see how frame-by-frame helps, the min and max luminance can be determined easily on a per frame basis in real time, without metadata (though that makes it easier). Average level is relatively easy to figure out too. What else is included in the dynamic metadata? Mastering monitor min/max level should be static for an entire film right? And the 2084 EOTF is fixed, not relative, so there shouldn't be anything like gamma adjustments. One thing I could see being in there is specifying what the "nominal" white point in the frame is, which could be useful in knowing what not to clip or roll off, but as we've seen with the static metadata, it seems like that just adds another order of magnitude potential for errors.

It seems to me that per-frame metadata may make things a bit more efficient, save some processing on the display side, but it also opens up a path for a whole nother level of FUBAR-ness. For example if you tried to adjust the mapping function on a per-frame level, that would be likely to have terrible results, like the dynamic gamma feature on Lumagen/Gennum processors, you could end up with pumping in the highlights or dark level whenever the peak white or black in a scene changes.

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I realize there are ways to tell something these levels, but you have to remember mass implementation can't rely on some calibrator telling it something at some point. Dolby would want that mode to kick on from minute 1 of use for anything input that is encoded as Dolby Vision, and since it doesn't know those variables (and the variation from unit to unit could be MASSIVE here) it puts them in a tough spot. Most Dolby Vision displays allow ZERO adjustment once they go in that mode, and I could see them wanting to do the same thing here. Again, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we never see DV support in projectors at all.
Yup, like I said, I understand why Dolby wants to keep control, from a political standpoint. I'm really more curious how dynamic metadata (one of the key features of DV) is really supposed to help things.
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post #14 of 90 Old 04-25-2017, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Dolby Vision would not only know the peek white level of the display for proper tone mapping, but also the measured black level as well. It also has all the data per frame so would be ideal for a dynamic contrast system (laser or iris) for adjusting on a frame by frame basis the APL. I realize there are ways to tell something these levels, but you have to remember mass implementation can't rely on some calibrator telling it something at some point. Dolby would want that mode to kick on from minute 1 of use for anything input that is encoded as Dolby Vision, and since it doesn't know those variables (and the variation from unit to unit could be MASSIVE here) it puts them in a tough spot. Most Dolby Vision displays allow ZERO adjustment once they go in that mode, and I could see them wanting to do the same thing here. Again, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we never see DV support in projectors at all.
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Because DV needs to know how bright the display is to work. Possible on a flat panel TV display - it's a known number. Projector / screen combos - not so easy.

Maybe they can implement an add on camera/sensor that can plug into the projector via its USB port that can dynamically read these things off the screen. I know the environment could mess this up some, but most who would buy this to implement DV on their projector would have a nice dedicated room anyway.

This could be similar to those auto calibration/alignment cameras that you used to get for your 3 tube CRT projectors like the Electrohome Marquees. It was an optional add-on.
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post #15 of 90 Old 04-25-2017, 02:45 PM
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Maybe they can implement an add on camera/sensor that can plug into the projector via its USB port that can dynamically read these things off the screen. I know the environment could mess this up some, but most who would buy this to implement DV on their projector would have a nice dedicated room anyway.

This could be similar to those auto calibration/alignment cameras that you used to get for your 3 tube CRT projectors like the Electrohome Marquees. It was an optional add-on.


There are a variety of ways I can think of that may work. The problem comes down to a couple things though. One, Dolby would have to be okay with that sort of implementation, which they may not be as it may not provide as sound of results as they would like for their software. Two, the added cost and complexity may be more than what projector manufacturers want to add to the product. Especially when they can just use the HDR10 layer and call it good. Once you start asking the end user to have to do more than just turn it on and switch to a mode (and DV content automatically triggers a DV mode) you are asking for issues with a lot of users. Sure it may be no big deal for seasoned AVS'ers compared to other stuff we do, but for Joe sixpack you never know.


Also, remember that Dolby uses a "Golden Reference" for their implementation with each display. How do you achieve this with a display that can have VASTLY different performance from one system to the next for EVERY variable that matters for calibration and performance? I'll talk with Dolby about it at CEDIA this year I'm sure, but I am not optimistic at all right now.
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post #16 of 90 Old 04-25-2017, 03:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
There are a variety of ways I can think of that may work. The problem comes down to a couple things though. One, Dolby would have to be okay with that sort of implementation, which they may not be as it may not provide as sound of results as they would like for their software. Two, the added cost and complexity may be more than what projector manufacturers want to add to the product. Especially when they can just use the HDR10 layer and call it good. Once you start asking the end user to have to do more than just turn it on and switch to a mode (and DV content automatically triggers a DV mode) you are asking for issues with a lot of users. Sure it may be no big deal for seasoned AVS'ers compared to other stuff we do, but for Joe sixpack you never know.

Also, remember that Dolby uses a "Golden Reference" for their implementation with each display. How do you achieve this with a display that can have VASTLY different performance from one system to the next for EVERY variable that matters for calibration and performance? I'll talk with Dolby about it at CEDIA this year I'm sure, but I am not optimistic at all right now.
Yes, good points. Maybe they could offer something like this farmed out to ISF and THX Certified Calibrators who have to go to a special class that can be held at shows like CES and CEDIA, etc. to learn how to install and setup this sensor system. Then Dolby can control the sale to those calibrators so they can personally take it with them and do the setup in the client's home. They could also offer it for sale to regular folks like on AVS, but then with no guarantee of performance at an "at your own risk" type of sale. Or have some sort of PC program or app that allows it to interface with a Dolby rep or one of these trained techs to do a sort of "remote setup" on it to ensure it's done properly.

Sorry, just trying to brainstorm. I am sure if a buck can be made, someone will come up with something!
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post #17 of 90 Old 04-26-2017, 01:14 PM
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Maybe they can implement an add on camera/sensor that can plug into the projector via its USB port that can dynamically read these things off the screen. I know the environment could mess this up some, but most who would buy this to implement DV on their projector would have a nice dedicated room anyway.

This could be similar to those auto calibration/alignment cameras that you used to get for your 3 tube CRT projectors like the Electrohome Marquees. It was an optional add-on.
This is what I was thinking. Kinda how receivers use microphones but for video. I'm sure the sensor would be more expensive than the microphones that come with receivers but it wouldn't need to be a full calibration if the main issue is screen brightness.
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This is what I was thinking. Kinda how receivers use microphones but for video. I'm sure the sensor would be more expensive than the microphones that come with receivers but it wouldn't need to be a full calibration if the main issue is screen brightness.
Sell a DolbyVision kit that includes a cheap light meter and a simple program (i.e. - ChromaPure, CalMan, HCFR in a "Lite" form) that interfaces between the meter, laptop and projector with a simple app in the DV projector that runs an automatic program to read whatever it needs to in the exact environment it will be in, and you're all set.
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post #19 of 90 Old 04-26-2017, 02:15 PM
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Sell a DolbyVision kit that includes a cheap light meter and a simple program (i.e. - ChromaPure, CalMan, HCFR in a "Lite" form) that interfaces between the meter, laptop and projector with a simple app in the DV projector that runs an automatic program to read whatever it needs to in the exact environment it will be in, and you're all set.
This is probably an oversimplification on my part but why can't the end user just enter Foot lamberts measured for peak brightness, with black level and white level readings of actual in room. Couldn't Dolby Vision processing work off those numbers? Or just measure whatever numbers are required for the Dolby Vision math?
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post #20 of 90 Old 04-26-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
This is probably an oversimplification on my part but why can't the end user just enter Foot lamberts measured for peak brightness, with black level and white level readings of actual in room. Couldn't Dolby Vision processing work off those numbers? Or just measure whatever numbers are required for the Dolby Vision math?
The problem is going to come from a guy with a large screen, that enters the information and then posts or writes an article talking about DV not looking any better than regular BD. Or from a guy that does not input the information correctly, screwing up the image and then writing about it.
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post #21 of 90 Old 04-26-2017, 03:06 PM
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What about implementing HDR10+ to projectors.....if it ever takes off?
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post #22 of 90 Old 04-26-2017, 03:10 PM
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True 4K laser and Dolby Vision for less than $5,000 will be my next projector hopefully in 2020?
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True 4K laser and Dolby Vision for less than $5,000 will be my next projector hopefully in 2020?
If nothing else, you are the optimist !!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
This is probably an oversimplification on my part but why can't the end user just enter Foot lamberts measured for peak brightness, with black level and white level readings of actual in room. Couldn't Dolby Vision processing work off those numbers? Or just measure whatever numbers are required for the Dolby Vision math?
All the options we have been talking about here are technically valid solutions, solutions which I hope are picked up by projector manufacturers. However when it comes to Dolby Vision specifically, it's a "political" problem more than a technical one. Dolby has high standards, and the desire/need to guarantee a level of performance. The problem, as Mike and Kris have pointed out, is that none of these solutions actually guarantee a level of performance with front projection, there are too many variables with front projection for that to be possible. Even if you have a sensor to read peak white level, you have to consider other things like running screens too large, or with too low gain, etc.

As such, Dolby Vision can't really just be ported over to front projection since

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What about implementing HDR10+ to projectors.....if it ever takes off?
I would imagine that will become a standard feature, or at least some form of Dynamic Metadata (I don't know how HDR10+ relates to HDMI 2.1 dynamic metadata), especially since Dynamic Metadata has been built up to where it's supposed to solve all our HDR problems. Though personally I'm concerned it will just make things worse. About the worst thing that could happen is if manufacturers implement HDR10+, and in their arrogance, thing they've done it perfectly and disable user controls. Can you imagine if JVC had disabled user controls in their initial RSx00 implementation?

Of course I suppose there may always be a Linker type option to strip that metadata...

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True 4K laser and Dolby Vision for less than $5,000 will be my next projector hopefully in 2020?
I'm guessing you'll be waiting a lot longer than that, especially the Dolby Vision part.
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
This is probably an oversimplification on my part but why can't the end user just enter Foot lamberts measured for peak brightness, with black level and white level readings of actual in room. Couldn't Dolby Vision processing work off those numbers? Or just measure whatever numbers are required for the Dolby Vision math?

I believe the reason we are talking about these other options is because earlier in the thread it was said that Dolby may not even bother implementing DV on projectors because they and manufacturers want to control the environment so it can be implemented properly. These could be ways to appease them to agree to license DV on projectors.
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I believe the reason we are talking about these other options is because earlier in the thread it was said that Dolby may not even bother implementing DV on projectors because they and manufacturers want to control the environment so it can be implemented properly. These could be ways to appease them to agree to license DV on projectors.
There aren't enough well heeled projector owners to make the return on investment worth the hassle.
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post #27 of 90 Old 04-26-2017, 07:11 PM
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If nothing else, you are the optimist !!
Thank you much obliged!
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post #28 of 90 Old 05-11-2017, 09:32 AM
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I'm somewhat surprised that there hasn't been any word on DolbyVision for home cinema projectors. However, once the first DolbyVision UHD Blu-Rays are released this year, I hope things will start to change...

UHD Premium specification for panels assumes the peak brightness for OLED is 540 candelas per square metre (nits) and for LCD/LED assumes the peak brightness is 1,000 nits, although the content can be mastered up to 4,000 nits when HDR10 is used.

While DolbyVision content can be mastered up to 10,000 nits, DolbyVision projectors in commercial cinemas only manage approximately 106 nits. However, you get great contrast due to the fantastic black levels delivered by laser based projectors.


Category Description foot-Lambert (fL) nit (nt)
Standard Digital Cinema 14 - 16 47 - 55
Standard Digital Cinema (3D) 4 -7 14 - 24
DolbyVision Cinema (Dual Laser) 31 106
DolbyVision Cinema (3D Dual Laser) 14 47
Standard TV 29 - 35 100 - 120
HDR (Home) - LCD/LED TV 292 1000
HDR (Home) - OLED TV 158 540


On the face of it, it seems that DolbyVision is a 'better' HDR system for dealing with a miriad of display devices that deliver differing maximum peak brightness levels.
It's easy to imagine that various home cinema projector manufacturers would be keen to deliver some sort DolbyVision capability before too long.


The demonstrations I've seen so far using HDR10 on Epson home cinema projectors (bulb not laser) from UHD Blu-ray, have all been disappointingly dark due to the headroom reserved for HDR highlights.
DolbyVision's tone mapping could potentially really help, as they seem less concerned with maximum peak brightness levels, and more concerned with better contrast.



Regards,

James.
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post #29 of 90 Old 05-11-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by thx1138uk View Post
I'm somewhat surprised that there hasn't been any word on DolbyVision for home cinema projectors. However, once the first DolbyVision UHD Blu-Rays are released this year, I hope things will start to change...

UHD Premium specification for panels assumes the peak brightness for OLED is 540 candelas per square metre (nits) and for LCD/LED assumes the peak brightness is 1,000 nits, although the content can be mastered up to 4,000 nits when HDR10 is used.

While DolbyVision content can be mastered up to 10,000 nits, DolbyVision projectors in commercial cinemas only manage approximately 106 nits. However, you get great contrast due to the fantastic black levels delivered by laser based projectors.


Category Description foot-Lambert (fL) nit (nt)
Standard Digital Cinema 14 - 16 47 - 55
Standard Digital Cinema (3D) 4 -7 14 - 24
DolbyVision Cinema (Dual Laser) 31 106
DolbyVision Cinema (3D Dual Laser) 14 47
Standard TV 29 - 35 100 - 120
HDR (Home) - LCD/LED TV 292 1000
HDR (Home) - OLED TV 158 540


On the face of it, it seems that DolbyVision is a 'better' HDR system for dealing with a miriad of display devices that deliver differing maximum peak brightness levels.
It's easy to imagine that various home cinema projector manufacturers would be keen to deliver some sort DolbyVision capability before too long.


The demonstrations I've seen so far using HDR10 on Epson home cinema projectors (bulb not laser) from UHD Blu-ray, have all been disappointingly dark due to the headroom reserved for HDR highlights.
DolbyVision's tone mapping could potentially really help, as they seem less concerned with maximum peak brightness levels, and more concerned with better contrast.



Regards,

James.
I would not be holding my breath waiting for Dolby Vision on projectors. There are no specs for this in home cinema and as of right now, no one is even moving in that direction. The Dolby Vision BD's are geared toward flat panel use. It works for commercial cinema, because there are standards and each theater has to meet those standards. With home cinema, everybodies system is different in brightness and what level of brightness they can reach.

The Epson projector does not have enough light output with the filter engauged. HDR looks pretty good on the Sony 4K projectors. it also looks pretty good on all of the JVC projectors. Can look pretty good on the Epson, if you do not use the WCG filter. Of course, it also depends on screen size, screen gain and throw distance of the projector.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 05-11-2017 at 09:42 AM.
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post #30 of 90 Old 05-11-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
True 4K laser and Dolby Vision for less than $5,000 will be my next projector hopefully in 2020?
The cheapest bare bones native 4K, non-HDR, lamp based projector (Sony 365ES) goes for $8,000 today. The 1000ES came out in 2012 at $25,000 and that had an iris, better lens, and P3 filter. So in five years, we go from $25,000 to $8000 with fewer options for only native 4K!

So, I would say you're looking at closer to 10 years before seeing a true 4K + laser + HDR projector at $5000...probably without Dolby Vision. Now, UHD BD should spark a greater demand which increases manufacturing (cheaper long term costs), but I still think the wait will be that long or close to it.

Your "down to Earth" pricing options for a long time are going to be native 4K lamp or laser eshift...both with HDR...take your pick.
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