Sony VPL-VW885ES / VPL-VW760ES laser projector announced - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
They aren't using it because of the light loss associated with it, not because they don't want to have more saturated colors. If it were minimal like in the eshift JVCs I think you'd be seeing a lot more people using it.

Do the JVC engineers developing these projectors ever look at the final product, if so, how could they have found the light loss acceptable for the greater color gamut, unless they are projecting a 50" diagonal image!
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post #32 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 01:42 PM
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Do the JVC engineers developing these projectors ever look at the final product, if so, how could they have found the light loss acceptable for the greater color gamut, unless they are projecting a 50" diagonal image!

At the shortest throw, on a 2.5 gain screen in a bat cave!
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post #33 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I agree it can be done with minimal loss, same with my RS600.

I just don't see having the filter as a necessity. No one seems to use it on the RS4500 or 5000ES.

18Gbps input - absolutely a necessity.

Until we see considerably brighter units, I find light output is much more important for HDR than the small increase in color gamut.




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I agree about not wanting to trade a lot of light loss for the slightly wider color space, but if I am making my wish list, it includes being able to use the p3 filter with little light loss. And I definitely at least want the opportunity to choose to use the P3 filter or not.
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post #34 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 04:37 PM
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That's what I just said. Light output for HDR is more important to everyone than the slight increase in color gamut.

An even better option, would be new laser / phosphor combo where the filter wouldn't even be needed to achieve 100% P3 or beyond.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Why even bother with a filter at all with lasers!
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post #35 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 05:49 PM
 
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This is exactly what I was thinking. Why even bother with a filter at all with lasers!
With laser/phosphor wheel's it's not much better than a UHP bulb. You would need direct laser to get all three of the primaries saturated enough to do it without a filter. Blue is normally sent direct so blue is more than likely saturated enough to do it in most light engine designs, but red and green need to be filtered out from the yellow light created from the phosphor wheel and as such the "purity" of each color is no where near what a direct laser solution can do. Direct laser has it's drawbacks too. The biggest issue is dealing with speckle. Direct laser is currently only being used in the premium projectors and I would assume if they were to bring them down to consumer units the price would be high enough to scare most people off.
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post #36 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
With laser/phosphor wheel's it's not much better than a UHP bulb. You would need direct laser to get all three of the primaries saturated enough to do it without a filter. Blue is normally sent direct so blue is more than likely saturated enough to do it in most light engine designs, but red and green need to be filtered out from the yellow light created from the phosphor wheel and as such the "purity" of each color is no where near what a direct laser solution can do. Direct laser has it's drawbacks too. The biggest issue is dealing with speckle. Direct laser is currently only being used in the premium projectors and I would assume if they were to bring them down to consumer units the price would be high enough to scare most people off.
Yes thanks Seegs! I understand all that, but I think @ccool96 was talking about a new laser/phosphor combo that got it closer, at maybe DCI-P3 as a minimum, so a filter wouldn't be needed. That is what I was responding to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96
...An even better option, would be new laser / phosphor combo where the filter wouldn't even be needed to achieve 100% P3 or beyond.
I apologize if I misunderstood him.

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post #37 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
With laser/phosphor wheel's it's not much better than a UHP bulb. You would need direct laser to get all three of the primaries saturated enough to do it without a filter. Blue is normally sent direct so blue is more than likely saturated enough to do it in most light engine designs, but red and green need to be filtered out from the yellow light created from the phosphor wheel and as such the "purity" of each color is no where near what a direct laser solution can do. Direct laser has it's drawbacks too. The biggest issue is dealing with speckle. Direct laser is currently only being used in the premium projectors and I would assume if they were to bring them down to consumer units the price would be high enough to scare most people off.
Isn't the FDA scared to allow direct laser in consumer projectors ?
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post #38 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 07:09 PM
 
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Isn't the FDA scared to allow direct laser in consumer projectors ?
Their stance has lessened on that front.
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post #39 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 07:37 PM
 
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Yes thanks Seegs! I understand all that, but I think @ccool96 was talking about a new laser/phosphor combo that got it closer, at maybe DCI-P3 as a minimum, so a filter wouldn't be needed. That is what I was responding to.



I apologize if I misunderstood him.
What did you get from his post that would suggest laser/phosphor alone could offer more? Laser/phosphor has been around for a while. At least 5-6 years. What it can achieve has been known for a while. If it alone could get saturation that high, it would have happened by now. Refinements in other areas such as the imager itself being able to achieve more saturation need to happen. This has happened over the years on JVC projectors and even the recent Epson LS units. That is where I think we'll see these companies get wider color gamuts with less light loss, that is until they go direct laser.
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post #40 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
What did you get from his post that would suggest laser/phosphor alone could offer more? Laser/phosphor has been around for a while. At least 5-6 years. What it can achieve has been known for a while. If it alone could get saturation that high, it would have happened by now. Refinements in other areas such as the imager itself being able to achieve more saturation need to happen. This has happened over the years on JVC projectors and even the recent Epson LS units. That is where I think we'll see these companies get wider color gamuts with less light loss, that is until they go direct laser.
I highlighted what it was in my reply to you, in BOLD and RED. I wasn't thinking it would be all that alone, but maybe some new tech that he was speaking to or something. I really wasn't thinking too much into it when I replied.

Thanks for the extra info.
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post #41 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 08:44 PM
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I was talking about "NEW" laser / phosphor technology.

If that's the addition of a Red laser in conjunction with the Blue or if that some new in-organic phosphor material.

I just finished watching "Hidden Figures", so I certainly don't think just because a technology like a laser / phosphor projector has been around for a few years, that means no more advancement is possible.


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post #42 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
What did you get from his post that would suggest laser/phosphor alone could offer more? Laser/phosphor has been around for a while. At least 5-6 years. What it can achieve has been known for a while. If it alone could get saturation that high, it would have happened by now. Refinements in other areas such as the imager itself being able to achieve more saturation need to happen. This has happened over the years on JVC projectors and even the recent Epson LS units. That is where I think we'll see these companies get wider color gamuts with less light loss, that is until they go direct laser.
I agree. I don't think laser/phosphor alone can get to DCI color space. I think to get there and beyond, it will take RGB laser and I think that is the direction we are headed.
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post #43 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 09:22 PM
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I was talking about "NEW" laser / phosphor technology.

If that's the addition of a Red laser in conjunction with the Blue or if that some new in-organic phosphor material.

I just finished watching "Hidden Figures", so I certainly don't think just because a technology like a laser / phosphor projector has been around for a few years, that means no more advancement is possible.
Yes, that is how I took you to mean it. Thanks for clarifying.
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post #44 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I was talking about "NEW" laser / phosphor technology.

If that's the addition of a Red laser in conjunction with the Blue or if that some new in-organic phosphor material.

I just finished watching "Hidden Figures", so I certainly don't think just because a technology like a laser / phosphor projector has been around for a few years, that means no more advancement is possible.


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Hidden Figures looked outstanding on 4K - watched it the other night !
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post #45 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 09:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I was talking about "NEW" laser / phosphor technology.

If that's the addition of a Red laser in conjunction with the Blue or if that some new in-organic phosphor material.

I just finished watching "Hidden Figures", so I certainly don't think just because a technology like a laser / phosphor projector has been around for a few years, that means no more advancement is possible.


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Yes, that is how I took you to mean it. Thanks for clarifying.

Haha, yeah but that's practically direct laser then, so it wouldn't be a new laser/phosphor technology but rather a step in a different direction, aka a new direct laser technology... Green would then not be saturated enough and as we know, green is by far the biggest portion of the CIE chart.
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post #46 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 10:14 PM
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Sony VW1100 replacement to be unveiled at IFA 2017

NEC and Christie already have Red / Blue phosphor laser units. It's still phosphor based.

This could very well be the direction of HT projectors before we see Direct RGB.

This can certainly increased color saturation further than just blue Phosphor.


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post #47 of 2575 Old 05-12-2017, 10:36 PM
 
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NEC and Christie already have Red / Blue phosphor laser units. It's still phosphor based.

This could very well be the direction of HT projectors before we see Direct RGB.

This can certainly increased color saturation further than just blue Phosphor.


I'm not disputing any of that. I'm just saying that it isn't a laser/ phosphor enhancement, but more of a direct laser enhancement. Semantics but also what I've been saying all along. Direct laser is the way to go and anything closer to it is a step in the right direction.

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post #48 of 2575 Old 05-13-2017, 07:36 AM
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I agree with direct laser being the ultimate goal. But more has to be done to eliminate speckle.




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post #49 of 2575 Old 05-16-2017, 05:41 PM
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Don't you think Sony should reward faithful current 1100ES owners with a fair trade-in value if this replacement model comes to fruition?

I certainly do....................
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post #50 of 2575 Old 05-16-2017, 10:04 PM
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I agree about not wanting to trade a lot of light loss for the slightly wider color space, but if I am making my wish list, it includes being able to use the p3 filter with little light loss. And I definitely at least want the opportunity to choose to use the P3 filter or not.
I think many people underestimate the value of having both high luminance and color saturation in HDR productions because so far it has been an either/or proposition.

HDR is all about color volume. Increasing luminance helps to increase the dynamic range but by increasing color saturation along with luminance introduces a whole new level of color volume to the image.

I think many underestimate the value of increased color space on projectors because in many cases the the color space is only being increased over a very small range of luminance values. If the colorspace were increased and saturations were maintained over greater luminance ranges then we would approach the nirvana of projection imaging.
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post #51 of 2575 Old 05-17-2017, 09:09 AM
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Don't you think Sony should reward faithful current 1100ES owners with a fair trade-in value if this replacement model comes to fruition?

I certainly do....................

The only thing I would trade the 1000es in for would be either the Z1 or the 5000es.
Or this laser 1100es.

Anything else would be a step backwards.
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post #52 of 2575 Old 05-23-2017, 06:15 PM
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When does Sony usually release it new projectors?
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post #53 of 2575 Old 05-23-2017, 06:36 PM
 
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When does Sony usually release it new projectors?
December/January if one is announced in the fall.
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post #54 of 2575 Old 05-25-2017, 05:17 PM
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If this projector is demoed at CEDIA 2017, I might just make the effort and attend. Would be nice to see both the 1100ES replacement and the new JVC in one setting...........................

Still loving my 1100ES, yet panel degradation is apparent and is getting long in the tooth. Hoping this new projector does not double in weight.......I'm a little worried hanging more weight on ceiling.
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post #55 of 2575 Old 05-25-2017, 06:12 PM
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I used to hang behemoth Sony G90s, Electrohome Marquee 9500LCs, Barco 1209s and NEC 9PGs to the ceilings in many home theaters! I think this will be tame in comparison and you'll be just fine!
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post #56 of 2575 Old 05-26-2017, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
If this projector is demoed at CEDIA 2017, I might just make the effort and attend. Would be nice to see both the 1100ES replacement and the new JVC in one setting...........................

Still loving my 1100ES, yet panel degradation is apparent and is getting long in the tooth. Hoping this new projector does not double in weight.......I'm a little worried hanging more weight on ceiling.
As long as you are attaching to the ceiling structural support/supports, you will be fine. The supports are designed to hold a lot more weight than a 90 pound projector. If you have floor above your theater, a person walking across the room, puts a lot larger load than the projector.
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post #57 of 2575 Old 05-26-2017, 04:59 PM
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As long as you are attaching to the ceiling structural support/supports, you will be fine. The supports are designed to hold a lot more weight than a 90 pound projector. If you have floor above your theater, a person walking across the room, puts a lot larger load than the projector.
As it stands, I have the current mount attached to 5/8's drywall plus 5/8's OSB with thin metal plate in attic space which is all that holds up the projector. Structurally, I have extra clips ie. 4 added to location to hold up projector. Clips/channels are 16 OC so I'm good for another layer of 5/8ths, but I have Knotty Aldar, two 20 lb speaker boxes hidden in cloud so weight is adding up.................worries me screws attached to channels is all that is holding the projector and mount in place........and I might add, a lot of ALDER!!

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As it stands, I have the current mount attached to 5/8's drywall plus 5/8's OSB with thin metal plate in attic space which is all that holds up the projector. Structurally, I have extra clips ie. 4 added to location to hold up projector. Clips/channels are 16 OC so I'm good for another layer of 5/8ths, but I have Knotty Aldar, two 20 lb speaker boxes hidden in cloud so weight is adding up.................worries me screws attached to channels is all that is holding the projector and mount in place........and I might add, a lot of ALDER!!


First you would need to check and see how much weight your channel system can support and then calculate how much weight you have on it. Then if that is okay and if you used enough screws fastening the 5/8" OSB to the channel, then the weak link in your system is screw pullout in the 5/8" OSB. I usually like to see 1.5" of material used. Either a 2x8 or two layers of 3/4" plywood.
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post #59 of 2575 Old 05-27-2017, 05:34 AM
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If Vincent notices faint banding while standing close to the screen on the Sony VPL-VZ1000ES short throw projector (which apparently the 1200ES is based on?) in his Youtube first look does that mean the VW1200ES will likely suffer from it?


Or as the Sony VW1100 replacement will use a different lens from the above Short Throw 1000ES it is not indicative either way?

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post #60 of 2575 Old 05-27-2017, 06:29 AM
 
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If Vincent notices faint banding while standing close to the screen on the Sony VPL-VZ1000ES short throw projector (which apparently the 1200ES is based on?) in his Youtube first look does that mean the VW1200ES will likely suffer from it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLiVrU42kqE

Or as the Sony VW1100 replacement will use a different lens from the above Short Throw 1000ES it is not indicative either way?
This kind of banding is something I've seen on ALL previous Sony SXRD 4K projectors. It's no surprise at all that it's still there. This is one of the bigger complaints I have with 4K SXRD. Unfortunately it looks like they still haven't fixed this issue.
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