Dell S718QL - 4K UHD Laser UST Announced - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Dell S718QL - 4K UHD Laser UST Announced

Hi,

Just saw the press release about Dell's new 4K UHD Laser Ultra Short Throw!! Super excited to see these types of PJs coming out and down in price.

Press release links:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300472626.html
http://www.pcgamer.com/dells-4k-lase...20hz-with-hdr/


IMO, I'm ready to convert my theater over to an UST in the 130-150" range and believe it creates a lot of opportunities for creative family room style rooms.

BP

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post #2 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 08:14 AM
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What kind of projection technology is the Dell S718QL? Couldn't find anything in the specs.

"It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiased opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiased opinion is always absolutely valueless." Oscar Wilde
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post #3 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
What kind of projection technology is the Dell S718QL? Couldn't find anything in the specs.
Found another link with a bit more information.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...18dw-displays/

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post #4 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 08:36 AM
 
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Mot really home theater oriented. Specs include:

Quote:
...with support for 97 percent of the sRGB color gamut and REC709 color coverage. The projector will provide 5,000 ANSI lumens and a typical contrast ratio of 1,300:1.
Price is $6000.
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post #5 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 09:26 AM
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Interesting. Doesn't say much regarding the actual projector technology.
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post #6 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Interesting. Doesn't say much regarding the actual projector technology.
There's a DLP logo in one of the pictures. Guessing it's using the new TI ~4K chip with laser, would be nice if it was better than 97% sRGB though. Hoping they are using something non-gimicky for the "high-contrast" mode.
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post #7 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 11:28 AM
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The design reveals its source;-). ISE demo did show off an P3 filtered version, MCL(A) in itself is rec. 709 not P3 gamut.
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post #8 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brendabryg View Post
There's a DLP logo in one of the pictures. Guessing it's using the new TI ~4K chip with laser
How's the persistence -- aka MPRT measurements?

Full-array (2D) DLP chips have higher effective persistence (motion blur) than directly scanning-based lasers.

Is the DLP chip a full array, or a line-array (scanline)? If scanline, that should create CRT-like zero-motion-blur, if a prism moves the scanline for a rolling scan and create less motion blur than a CRT. If full array, the effective motion blur is probably worse than a CRT. So I'm curious about the exact nature of the DLP engine.

Note: MPRT in milliseconds is different from GtG pixel response in milliseconds. MPRT is pixel visibility time in milliseconds, and GtG is pixel transition time. They are totally different millisecond numbers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Interesting. Doesn't say much regarding the actual projector technology.
1,300:1 native contrast.
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post #10 of 710 Old 06-13-2017, 03:18 PM
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That's standard for most single DMD projectors.

I don't see a spec. sheet, just reports saying it will be 120 Hz. and 5K lumens, with 100,000 dynamic contrast and 1300:1 native?

Mark, it is just a lamp. Only made up by two arrays of laser diodes, one red, the other blue. With Green and Yellow phosphor.

Last edited by donaldk; 06-13-2017 at 03:32 PM.
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post #11 of 710 Old 06-15-2017, 02:47 AM
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Still would be kickass colors, but booo.... 1300:1 native implies full 2D array DMD as the method of light modulation.

While 4K DMDs are pretty sweet, they have difficulty approaching the motion clarity of a CRT or one of the newer strobed gaming monitors.

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post #12 of 710 Old 06-15-2017, 03:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post
How's the persistence -- aka MPRT measurements?

Full-array (2D) DLP chips have higher effective persistence (motion blur) than directly scanning-based lasers.

Is the DLP chip a full array, or a line-array (scanline)? If scanline, that should create CRT-like zero-motion-blur, if a prism moves the scanline for a rolling scan and create less motion blur than a CRT. If full array, the effective motion blur is probably worse than a CRT. So I'm curious about the exact nature of the DLP engine.

Note: MPRT in milliseconds is different from GtG pixel response in milliseconds. MPRT is pixel visibility time in milliseconds, and GtG is pixel transition time. They are totally different millisecond numbers.
Mark, nice to see ya here on AVS.

None of these DLPs are low-persistence, which would cut lumens unless using raster scanning tech, as you say. (which they aren't).

DLP is fundamentally incompatible with raster scanning approaches anyway, since it achieves a certain pixel pixel intensity only in aggregate, over time, due to duty cycling light digitally on/off, meaning the lower the persistence, the lower the effective bit depth. Scanning a single row at a time would be 1/1628th of the persistence of a full-frame DMD, and that would mean the mirrors would have to be 1628 x faster than they are currently in order to modulate the light fast enough, and even then, if it were scanned it would smear a gradient across the screen.

There was even some question about whether these new TI 4K chips had mirrors that could move fast enough to achieve, using a single chip, 10-bit colour at 120hz, since in the past this was only achievable with 3-chip designs. (they could do 8-bit only at 120/144hz). I asked TI about it a while back on twitter and they confirmed that 4K60 @ 10-bit works just fine (meaning internally 120hz at 10-bit, with XPR on).

The good thing about DLP is that the pixel transition times are effectively nil as a result of how they operate. Well, not quite, it's more complicated than an LCD cell's transition time, but it's pretty fast. A bigger issue for some people is the fact that the colours aren't shown at the same time, i.e. these are all grayscale displays, time multiplexed to fool us into seeing a fused colour final image. At 120hz that doesn't really matter much though, I don't think (actually it would be interesting to see if people who see rainbows on current DLPs can see any on these Faux-K XPR DLPs).

In the era of HDR and lasers and WCG, projectors really need all the lumens they can get, so manufacturers are not at all likely to ever implement one with BFI or rolling scan type low persistence. But both of which would be problematic for DLP anyway, for the reasons above. On a 3LCD or LCoS that could work, especially for 3LCD with LED or laser light sources and plenty of lumens to spare, which Epsons typically have. But if you're going to implement 120hz in order to do 60hz BFI, you might as well just do 120hz native and get double the refresh rate thus double the smoothness, with no lumens loss either. (rather important for HDR10, which has been estimated as needing 13000 lumens for a 120 inch screen to achieve 1000 nits peak brightness). 120hz should cut persistence in half just as well as 60hz + BFI, without flickering either, according to the formula you came up with on Blurbusters.com for persistence (meaning 8ms persistence). These DLPs' strength is how fast they can switch frames, so if someone were enterprising enough to make a 240hz or 480hz version, that would be great. Although they'd run into economic problems: who beside ultra gamer geeks would value > 120hz operation? It's hard enough to get PJ manufacturers to care about 120hz native input let alone 240 or 480.

The first and biggest problem with all these projectors is to get 120hz native at 1080p minimum working. If you really cared about BFI on a laser or LED projector one could probably hack in a switch in there to cut out the laser light 1/2 the time, with a knob for phase to sync it to the display. I know some LED DLPs are dirt cheap these days and would be ripe for such experimentation. Although that'd cut the lumens in half and those are precious indeed.

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post #13 of 710 Old 06-15-2017, 03:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post
Still would be kickass colors, but booo.... 1300:1 native implies full 2D array DMD as the method of light modulation.

While 4K DMDs are pretty sweet, they have difficulty approaching the motion clarity of a CRT or one of the newer strobed gaming monitors.
Tip: virtually all of these "laser" displays are just retrofitted blue laser + yellow phosphor wheel type displays right now, meaning they all use 2d-grid-array-type spatial light modulators so none of them are inherently low persistence like a CRT. The fact that the other colours are achieved through a yellow phosphor means the light is no longer coherent and thus not steerable any longer, through MEMS raster scanners.

Just looking at the light source and the chip type and you'll know what type of machine you're looking at and its persistence characteristics.

I've dug into this a lot, none of them are raster scanned, (nor likely to be, sadly), trust me.

First we'd need to have full RGB lasers, and to do that they'd first need to sort out green laser intensity + price issue, which is being worked on, then they'd need to change safety regs to be able to increase the laser power, compared to the pathetically low powered lasers used in the PicoBit and company. This is to make sure that if, say, the scanner stops scanning, that a 1000 nits laser beam concentrated in a point doesn't set your screen on fire (or burn a hole through a person's retina).

I have a sneaky suspicion that front projection market will likely implode before that happens though, it's already very small in terms of units sold and once printable rollable wallpaper type OLED or QLED screens come out with 100+ inch sizes and full HDR + high brightness capability, projection is kinda doomed in the home market, I think. Their performance is lagging too much and you need an insane amount of lumens to do HDR justice, compared to a TV. Their only advantage, size / dollar, is being attacked mercilessly as TV sizes get larger and TV prices get cheaper. It's just economy of scale, and projection is on the losing side of it.

Note the pathetic low contrast of these 4K DLPs, they're actually getting worse over time! Not to mention, still stuck at 60hz. They also can't do 1080p or 2160p natively in a 1:1 fashion due to XPR, so it will always be somewhat blurry compared to a native UHD TV or monitor. Lots of gamers won't tolerate that (I would, because I don't believe in 1-pixel wide fonts or text elements in games anyway). But for windows desktop, wobulation is not ideal because synthetic graphics can have frequencies that are effectively infinite (a single white pixel in a 0-IRE black field represents an infinite frequency, i.e. a square wave). These Faux-K displays are band-limited and not data-grade. So that means they can show all the detail in a UHD Bluray but not all the detail in a UHD Windows desktop.
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post #14 of 710 Old 06-15-2017, 03:45 AM
 
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Waaait a minute, I just saw that this does 120hz and HDR! Man, that's good news, I hope that trickles down to other projectors soon.

Since it does 120hz it might also be possible to combine it with an active LCD shutter glass system like 3D Vision 2, synced from a PC, to get 3D (60hz per eye).

Supporting 120hz native via XPR / wobulation means one of two things:

1) 240hz internally, and at 10-bit too (for HDR)
2) 120hz internally, alternating showing even / odd frames for the respective 2.7K resolution sub images.

Too bad about that low 1300:1 contrast though, that is really, really awfully bad. Especially for 6000 bucks. 5000 lumens though. Jeez, that's a tough one. No reason that JVC can't do 5000 lumens with laser affordably this year or next, at a similar price.

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post #15 of 710 Old 06-15-2017, 04:14 AM
 
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Wait another minute.

The pics on the back of the projector only show HDMI 2.0 and 1.4 inputs, meaning it's impossible for them to support 4K HDR at 120hz.

4K120 is possible in 8-bit SDR via 420 (same bandwidth required as for 4K60 in 8-bit RGB / 444), over HDMI 2.0.

I suspect the 120hz is only allowed at 1080p and upscaled internally. Or at most, at 2.7K, being half the pixels of UHD, so 4M vs 8M, one can double the refresh rate using the same 18gbps HDMI input bandwidth.

Gamers are going to have to pick at most 2/3 of these features to use at any given time: 4K, HDR, 120hz.

Choices:

1) 4K60 + HDR (in 422 or 420).
2) 4K120 + SDR (420)
3) 1080p120 + HDR (444)
4) Maybe 2.7K120 + HDR (native 1:1 imager resolution), also in 422 or 420.
5) Maybe 2.7K96hz + HDR (444).

It's also possible that PC Gamer messed up and 120hz isn't really offered at all. But I bet it's probably offered at 1080p only.
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post #16 of 710 Old 06-15-2017, 10:03 AM
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Interesting. I may pick one of these up to test it out for a while. Found a video and it looks really bad.

Last edited by MoviePerson; 06-15-2017 at 10:13 AM.
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post #17 of 710 Old 06-15-2017, 11:03 AM
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Hate to say it, but I have next to no faith in Dell making a projector that I would actually be interested in owning.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Hate to say it, but I have next to no faith in Dell making a projector that I would actually be interested in owning.
Business class performance is what they're after first and foremost.
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post #19 of 710 Old 06-22-2017, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Hate to say it, but I have next to no faith in Dell making a projector that I would actually be interested in owning.


Do they actually make their own PJs? I assume they outsource to one of the manufacturers and slap their logo on it.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoviePerson View Post
Interesting. I may pick one of these up to test it out for a while. Found a video and it looks really bad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRF6jTeJYu0


Doesn't look great on the wall, I agree. But it might be better with an ALR screen or paint. But I'm still excited to see new UST PJs. I think they still have some value, especially in the business world, and as long as 100"+ TVs are astronomically priced.




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Better Looking Video

Looks a lot better on the stand at infocomm

I cant paste the link as AVS Forums wont let me but type in "InfoComm 2017: Dell Unveils Advanced Projector S718QL" into youtube and see the proper video demonstration.

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post #22 of 710 Old 08-14-2017, 08:04 AM
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Any updates? or dead on arrival?

OLED65C9PUA, AVR-X4200W, NVIDIA ShieldTV, SVS SB12-NSD, RF-42 II, RC-52 II, RB-41 II
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post #23 of 710 Old 08-16-2017, 10:40 AM
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Any updates? or dead on arrival?
It was registered with the FCC on 8/10/17 here: https :// fccid.io/SUZ-S718QL

being built by Coretronic which also makes Optoma
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post #24 of 710 Old 10-20-2017, 09:23 AM
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Subscribing to this because I want to hear from the very first person that connects one of these to a Playstation 4 or 4K disk player and reports back on HDR results.
Looks like they start shipping in the next couple weeks?
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Subscribing to this because I want to hear from the very first person that connects one of these to a Playstation 4 or 4K disk player and reports back on HDR results.
Looks like they start shipping in the next couple weeks?
Its already available on Dells website and shipping immediately.

Just google Dell 4k UST projector its available on their site since the 10th of october
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post #26 of 710 Old 11-16-2017, 10:53 AM
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Here's the Dell product page for the projector, on sale for $4500 currently. It notes a ship date of 12/14/2017.

http://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/...or-accessories
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post #27 of 710 Old 12-04-2017, 09:12 AM
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whops price jumped back to 5999$ i ordered just in time


Can anyone give some feedback on motion in this projector? projector central review of this was shameful deleted them from my bookmarks.

And NO ONE ELSE has any information or a review of this projector? whyyyy
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post #28 of 710 Old 12-04-2017, 03:32 PM
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Can someone please enlighten with some more information about this projector.

The only review - http://www.projectorcentral.com/Dell...-Projector.htm

and of course they didnt measure native or dynamic contrast did not say anything about black levels or movies, nothing about motion, basically the worst written review i'v every seen for a projector.

I know this projector is meant for business use, but this still might be a Gem for living room with a lot of light paired with a good UST ALR screen. but common where are the reviews???

it says it support HDR 10 but does not say if it has BT2020 color, say it has 1 hdmi 2.0 does not say if it support full 18 gbps. nothing about motion, 0 videos online .........
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post #29 of 710 Old 12-04-2017, 06:24 PM
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Dell S718QL - 4K UHD Laser UST Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercuryyy View Post
Can someone please enlighten with some more information about this projector.



The only review - http://www.projectorcentral.com/Dell...-Projector.htm



and of course they didnt measure native or dynamic contrast did not say anything about black levels or movies, nothing about motion, basically the worst written review i'v every seen for a projector.



I know this projector is meant for business use, but this still might be a Gem for living room with a lot of light paired with a good UST ALR screen. but common where are the reviews???



it says it support HDR 10 but does not say if it has BT2020 color, say it has 1 hdmi 2.0 does not say if it support full 18 gbps. nothing about motion, 0 videos online .........


It looks like it has HDR support but know HLG support, or at least that’s what I decrypted from their very confusing description here:

http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-...ories/overview

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post #30 of 710 Old 12-04-2017, 06:41 PM
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Now why would they do this "Dells HDR feature has been designed with a PC User in mind"

What type of bad marketing and decision making led them to write that and apply that to their firmware, Im starting to regret ordering this one. Looks so promising on payper.
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