Optoma UHZ65 - 4K laser ($4,500 MSRP) - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #631 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
Hmmm, Ok I might be confused and I am not an engineer.

1) Is it fair to say that for good 4K HDR you need Lumens more than contrast? Yes I know you want both in perfect world.
It's a balance, but I find poor contrast pulls me out of the experience far sooner than missing "eyeviserating" highlights.

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2) For proper HDR you want 1000nits (about 10,000 lumens)
Not necessarily for projectors. Dolby Cinema is peak 106 nits. Now we don't have Dolby Cinema masters, but I'd say (at least with JVC owners) the consensus seems to be 100 nits is about what it takes for great HDR, or course more is better.

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3) To most people if they have great HDR the contrast (Black) would be overlooked
I doubt it. For example Manni can get either 130 nits in low lamp (RS500 I think) or 200 nits in high lamp, has said he generally runs in low lamp for the better black levels and lower noise, only using high lamp for very bright titles. A lot of folks in the RS500 thread bought HDFury Integrals, and later Linkers, solely to be able to disable HDR (force player conversion of HDR -> SDR+Rec.2020) specifically because of reduced contrast.

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4) Color gamut of course is important but the article about Joe Kane's presentation was interesting about 2020 on the main page of AVS
If we're thinking of the same thing, that's irrelevant, it's talking about Rec.2020 displays. Rec.2020 is just a container as far as we're concerned currently., UHD Blu-rays today are only mastered to about DCI P3, good projectors can hit about that. At DCI P3, there are none of the issues Joe talks about.

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Soooo wouldn't you want laser with highest lumens you can afford since no one has high lumens high contrast under 100K and even then not to spec.
Just based on what I've seen in my own HT, I'd keep my RS600 rather than switch to the Sim2 Duo (9000 Lumens, but about 1/10th the contrast).

Lets put things in perspective...

Lets take a UHZ65, lets assume it can do about 1000 Lumens calibrated, and about 2000:1 native CR, both of which are better than the UHD65's have measured. Say we calibrate it for HDR with a peak white of 100 nits. That puts the black level at 0.05 nits.

Now lets assume we have a UHZ6500, with 10,000 Lumens calibrated, same CR... That would put it at 1000 nits for peak white, and a black level of 0.5 nits. That means black would be about the same brightness as 5% APL pattern!

Would you want to watch HDR where black was effectively 5% APL?

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Here is a spec on a cinema projector that really confused me and there most are like this.

Resolution 4,096 x 2,160
Brightness Up to 56,000 lumens
Native contrast ratio 2,800:1 (typical) / 500:1 ANSI contrast (typical)
Cinema projectors light enormous screens, and need enormous screens, so they need to make sacrifices in other areas. But to address your question directly, brightness or contrast, lets look at Dolby Vision as it was built for Dolby Cinema, and compare it to a typical cinema.

Per DCI, a typical cinema has a peak white of about 50 nits (14-16fL) and as you note, the typical DLP cinema projector is in the 2000:1 range contrast wise, maybe a bit higher. So what did Dolby actually design with Dolby Cinema? Well, Dolby Cinema has a peak white of "only" 106 nits, just double that. However they use 6-chip, tandem DMD (stacked) that can achieve over 1,000,000:1 (theoretically) contrast.

So when Dolby went to build Dolby Cinema, HDR for cinemas, they boosted the brightness a bit, but made a massive increase in contrast, "500 times" more.
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post #632 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 02:58 PM
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I have not been on in a while but had to sign in and comment on 3D glasses and DLP link, Seegs and Ruined are both wrong.

I use an Optoma 131xe projector for 3D content, one of the best because the dynamic contrast actually works and is not intrusive, I can get around 3800:1 and a black level of 0.004 ft lambert in 2D, in 3D it's a lower black level due to the glasses.

I used Optoma RF ZF2100 originally for 3D, I took a chance on some Optoma DLP link ZD302 glasses, here is no loss of contrast, it when viewing THROUGH the glasses, viewing without the glasses makes it look like there is a loss, there is not.

I use a meter and Chromapure software, I calibrate 3D through the glasses, this is where Ruined is also wrong, ALL projectors need some calibration otherwise they are not accurate, 3D especially needs calibrated, no glasses colour correct because for one, no two projectors or screen for that matter are the same, this is why one persons calibration settings do not work with another persons projector, you can end up making your image worse.

Now yes it is possible some DLP link glasses are not built equally, but contrary to opinion the above glasses I mention do not change contrast, it's identical to the RF glasses I have, measurements do not lie.
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post #633 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 03:03 PM
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I forgot to mention, every projector that Optoma has released after the 131xe has a poor dynamic bulb implementation, I mean every one including the HD50 so I do not hold out hope that these new projectors are perfect, I would be pleasant,y surprised if they are.

Triple flash 3D is hard to beat, 72hz per eye, I am keeping my eyes on new projector releases, I was interested in JVC but no one can tell me black levels at a normal 14ftl to 16ftl which is normal viewing, all I see is inflated figures on contrast based on measurements at the lens or at very high brightness.

I prefer taking measurements at my screen as it shows what my dedicated Devore black velvet room is capable of, taking at the lens shows what is possible but is not always possible on your screen.
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post #634 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 03:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by James_K View Post
I have not been on in a while but had to sign in and comment on 3D glasses and DLP link, Seegs and Ruined are both wrong.

I use an Optoma 131xe projector for 3D content, one of the best because the dynamic contrast actually works and is not intrusive, I can get around 3800:1 and a black level of 0.004 ft lambert in 2D, in 3D it's a lower black level due to the glasses.

I used Optoma RF ZF2100 originally for 3D, I took a chance on some Optoma DLP link ZD302 glasses, here is no loss of contrast, it when viewing THROUGH the glasses, viewing without the glasses makes it look like there is a loss, there is not.

I use a meter and Chromapure software, I calibrate 3D through the glasses, this is where Ruined is also wrong, ALL projectors need some calibration otherwise they are not accurate, 3D especially needs calibrated, no glasses colour correct because for one, no two projectors or screen for that matter are the same, this is why one persons calibration settings do not work with another persons projector, you can end up making your image worse.

Now yes it is possible some DLP link glasses are not built equally, but contrary to opinion the above glasses I mention do not change contrast, it's identical to the RF glasses I have, measurements do not lie.
There is definitely a rise in black level with DLP Link engaged. This is literally how DLP Link works. That alone is a big enough difference between DLP Link and IR/RF 3D sync to turn plenty of people away from it. The rise in black level with DLP Link on can be seen here:





3D will always look better if there was more contrast/darker black level on screen to begin with. Just because black looks blacker behind the glasses does not mean there's no issue. Black will always look blacker from behind the glasses no matter how the image is synced to the glasses. The difference is the amount of contrast and level of black in which you could potentially have behind the glasses and with DLP link the answer is always less and a higher level of black with all other parameters being equal...the exception being the sync method.

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post #635 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There is definitely a rise in black level with DLP Link engaged. This is literally how DLP Link works. That alone is a big enough difference between DLP Link and IR/RF 3D sync to turn plenty of people away from it. The rise in black level with DLP Link on can be seen here:





3D will always look better if there was more contrast/darker black level on screen to begin with. Just because black looks blacker behind the glasses does not mean there's no issue. Black will always look blacker from behind the glasses no matter how the image is synced to the glasses. The difference is the amount of contrast and level of black in which you could potentially have behind the glasses and with DLP link the answer is always less and a higher level of black with all other parameters being equal...the exception being the sync method.
Which part of....I calibrated the 3D using both sets of glasses and they are equal in both contrast and black level did you not read.

There is no difference, it's a myth, or at least a myth if you use good glasses, DLP ZD302 DLP link are the same as RF glasses and for the record I have calibrated a lot of devices including my current plasma which I hope holds out a few more years.
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post #636 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 04:08 PM
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Measurements do not lie, I measured black level, I measured contrast, they were IDENTICAL.

You are showing an image with the glasses off, measure using a meter, get the glasses I used and measure, then tell me I am wrong, because at the moment you are disagreeing with science, I am not saying they are the same, the meter says it, the meter doesn't lie,
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post #637 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 04:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by James_K View Post
Which part of....I calibrated the 3D using both sets of glasses and they are equal in both contrast and black level did you not read.

There is no difference, it's a myth, or at least a myth if you use good glasses, DLP ZD302 DLP link are the same as RF glasses and for the record I have calibrated a lot of devices including my current plasma which I hope holds out a few more years.
I don't have a DLP Link 3D projector here, but I've asked @zombie10k to measure this on his Sharp XV-Z30000 as this has the option for either DLP Link or IR 3D sync.
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post #638 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 04:45 PM
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I don't have a DLP Link 3D projector here, but I've asked @zombie10k to measure this on his Sharp XV-Z30000 as this has the option for either DLP Link or IR 3D sync.
If he uses the glasses I mention it should be the same, regardless, go ask Panman, you can find him in the Epson UB5040 thread, he also had the same projector as me and can verify what I am saying, I have no reason to say this unless I measured it, our eyes lie, but a meter is not going to show identical results unless it is identical.
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post #639 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 04:47 PM
 
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If he uses the glasses I mention it should be the same, regardless, go ask Panman, you can find him in the Epson UB5040 thread, he also had the same projector as me and can verify what I am saying, I have no reason to say this unless I measured it, our eyes lie, but a meter is not going to show identical results unless it is identical.
No offense, but I don't know you or your credentials or even what meter you're using. I trust Zombie and I know he knows what he's doing. I will believe it when he says it's the case.
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post #640 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 04:50 PM
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No offense, but I don't know you or your credentials or even what meter you're using. I trust Zombie and I know he knows what he's doing. I will believe it when he says it's the case.
I didn't realise I needed credentials to take part in the forum or to tell you I measured identical contrast and black levels using scientific means.

I do not know you either but I can respect your position on contrast figures being too low on DLP for 2D in the year 2017.

I forgot to mention, I also measure light loss through the glasses, it's 83% on both DLP link and RF glasses on my projector, I have been reading these forums and some people saying it's 40%, not sure why they say that, maybe JVC loses less, you can tell me that.

Please ask Zombie to measure through the glasses.

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post #641 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 05:18 PM
 
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I didn't realise I needed credentials to take part in the forum or to tell you I measured identical contrast and black levels using scientific means.

I do not know you either but I can respect your position on contrast figures being too low on DLP for 2D in the year 2017.

I forgot to mention, I also measure light loss through the glasses, it's 83% on both DLP link and RF glasses on my projector, I have been reading these forums and some people saying it's 40%, not sure why they say that, maybe JVC loses less, you can tell me that.

Please ask Zombie to measure through the glasses.
What meter are you using? Only but very expensive lux meters will have the low light level reading capabilities necessary to read a black level this low through the glasses. What were your black level readings and peak white level readings through the glasses? I don't even know if my Minolta CL200 would have the proper range necessary for such a measurement.
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post #642 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 05:59 PM
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I don't even know if my Minolta CL200 would have the proper range necessary for such a measurement.
I can see I am going to have to take some more readings sometime over the weekend and post the results in this thread.

You measure not only the darkest level but at 5%, 10%, 20% etc, if you calibrate through the glasses so that everything is equal, contrast will be equal on both sets of glasses, the higher black level patterns will be identical, if one pair of glasses is showing a better black, you claim RF, it is also going to show on the lighter black patterns, so you do not only need to use the darkest black pattern.

Of course this also brings up another point, you admit you cannot measure it, another point is contrast would not be the same if there were differences, I find contrast and black levels tend to go hand in hand if everything else is equal, I will measure again and show you.
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post #643 of 2104 Old 07-17-2017, 06:39 PM
 
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I can see I am going to have to take some more readings sometime over the weekend and post the results in this thread.

You measure not only the darkest level but at 5%, 10%, 20% etc, if you calibrate through the glasses so that everything is equal, contrast will be equal on both sets of glasses, the higher black level patterns will be identical, if one pair of glasses is showing a better black, you claim RF, it is also going to show on the lighter black patterns, so you do not only need to use the darkest black pattern.

Of course this also brings up another point, you admit you cannot measure it, another point is contrast would not be the same if there were differences, I find contrast and black levels tend to go hand in hand if everything else is equal, I will measure again and show you.
We aren't talking about calibrating color or greyscale through the glasses, we're talking about measuring contrast and black level. The 5%, 10%, ect APL windows don't mean anything when we're talking about measuring contrast or black level and those are the only two things that matter to this discussion. You also never answered my question. What meter are you using to measure black level and contrast behind your 3D glasses?
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post #644 of 2104 Old 07-18-2017, 03:48 AM
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Buy Optoma DLP link glasses, they correct for the dlp link flash as I demonstrated earlier in the thread, and do not have the washed out look of XpanD dlp link and generic dlp link glasses.
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post #645 of 2104 Old 07-20-2017, 01:52 PM
 
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Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:

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The DLP660TE [.67" XPR DMD] is intended for use in a 4K UHD system and supports UHD displays. Furthermore, these displays must run at 50Hz or 60Hz. The front end processor will convert any input frame rate to either 50Hz or 60Hz.If the input is an integer multiple of 50Hz or 60 Hz, the front end will use 2:2 pulldown, otherwise it will use 3:2 pulldown. These configurations are not currently programmable. Any source with a resolution lower than UHD will be upscaled by the front end processor to UHD. The DLPC4422 controller does allow different levels of control to drive the DMD, but it’s the decision of the system integrator on how to configure the final system.
So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.
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post #646 of 2104 Old 07-23-2017, 05:44 AM
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No official confirmation yet, but it looks like the UHZ65 will offer up to an 8x multiplier in dynamic contrast laser modulation.
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No official confirmation yet, but it looks like the UHZ65 will offer up to an 8x multiplier in dynamic contrast laser modulation.
What's this mean in simplified terms for us/me, haha.
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No official confirmation yet, but it looks like the UHZ65 will offer up to an 8x multiplier in dynamic contrast laser modulation.
How exactly did you come to this conclusion?
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How exactly did you come to this conclusion?
Info from ISE on dci forum from Coretronics on their general future laser projector design plans. They also demoed a P3 laser unit, still no word though if Uhz65 is p3.

Since Uhz65 is coretronics laser, makes sense they would likely go this route on dynamic contrast since they announced their plans.
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What's this mean in simplified terms for us/me, haha.
It mean the UHZ65 could offer at least 10,000:1 dynamic contrast though rapid laser modulation, which is quite a bit higher than the dynamic contrast offered by UHD65 - over double I believe?

Will be interesting to see how well it works.

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post #651 of 2104 Old 07-23-2017, 08:12 AM
 
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An 8x contrast multiplier is very aggressive for a DLP projector. Even the better implemented solutions from Sony, JVC and Epson only do about 4-5x with actual content on screen and only go more than this if the image on screen is completely black. I'm willing to bet it will be a very visible dynamic contrast system if this 8x multiplier is used. There is nothing about a laser based dynamic contrast solution that would allow it to be less visible over a physical DI when using a higher contrast multiplier. There are physical DIs that can change and go through their entire range of movement on a frame by frame basis. This is as fast as a laser could also modulate. There's no reason to think that lasers or LEDs will fix issues related to pumping, dynamic gamma, flickering or non-smooth gradation changes in dynamic contrast. To add to this, Optoma has not been known in the past to have well implemented dynamic contrast solutions. The one in the UHD65 took me by surprise. Will it be a fluke or is the UHD65 an indication of Optoma making a change in how they do dynamic contrast? If the 8x multiplier is true, I think the UHD65 was a fluke.
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post #652 of 2104 Old 07-23-2017, 08:32 AM
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The one in the UHD65 took me by surprise. Will it be a fluke or is the UHD65 an indication of Optoma making a change in how they do dynamic contrast? If the 8x multiplier is true, I think the UHD65 was a fluke.
Or maybe...and I say MAYBE they see the success of doing things a little better and the continue the trend. I guess it's the optimist in me.
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Or maybe...and I say MAYBE they see the success of doing things a little better and the continue the trend. I guess it's the optimist in me.
An 8x multiplier is way too much for a DLP projector. If it's true then the UHD65 will be a one off fluke. If you want to be optimistic then hope for a lower contrast multiplier.
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An 8x multiplier is way too much for a DLP projector. If it's true then the UHD65 will be a one off fluke. If you want to be optimistic then hope for a lower contrast multiplier.
Ok I'm game as long as they make progress or you are right they will be a onetime fluke and moving on. We all have a lot of hopes for JVC and Sony also. I tell you what, everything I've said about Sony's arrogance will come true if they leave that 675 without 18gig ports the way it is and keep the price. We will just say there are a few things JVC needs to fix also. But hopefully they are listening unlike Sony.

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post #655 of 2104 Old 07-23-2017, 09:01 AM
 
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Ok I'm game as long as they make progress or you are right they will be a onetime fluke and moving on. We all have a lot of hopes for JVC and Sony also. I tell you what, everything I've said about Sony's arrogance will come true if they leave that 675 without 18gig ports the way it is and keep the price. We will just say there are a few things JVC needs to fix also. But hopefully they are listening unlike Sony.
I saw in another thread that people are complaining about the Sony threads being dead. The insinuation was that this forum scared people off, but the reality is that no one is buying the cheaper 3xx/6xx Sony projectors relatively speaking. This is the ONLY reason they knocked the MSRP down to $7999 for the 365ES. The reality is that no one is talking about them because no one is buying them in relative terms. Their relative performance, coupled with several inherent issues (panel degradation, banding, posterization, relatively poor lens quality) and it's high price, which make them a poor value proposition, is why you see low ownership and not many people on the forum discussing these models as owners.

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An 8x contrast multiplier is very aggressive for a DLP projector. Even the better implemented solutions from Sony, JVC and Epson only do about 4-5x with actual content on screen and only go more than this if the image on screen is completely black. I'm willing to bet it will be a very visible dynamic contrast system if this 8x multiplier is used. There is nothing about a laser based dynamic contrast solution that would allow it to be less visible over a physical DI when using a higher contrast multiplier. There are physical DIs that can change and go through their entire range of movement on a frame by frame basis. This is as fast as a laser could also modulate. There's no reason to think that lasers or LEDs will fix issues related to pumping, dynamic gamma, flickering or non-smooth gradation changes in dynamic contrast. To add to this, Optoma has not been known in the past to have well implemented dynamic contrast solutions. The one in the UHD65 took me by surprise. Will it be a fluke or is the UHD65 an indication of Optoma making a change in how they do dynamic contrast? If the 8x multiplier is true, I think the UHD65 was a fluke.
Lol. We have no idea how visible will be, how many steps it will have in the settings menu, (could be 2x, 4x, 6x, 8x) etc. Let's not make baseless assumptions raining on this projectors parade with no concrete info about this aspect of it available.

All we know is that coretronics is aiming to have a max 8x multiplier for the dynamic contrast implementations of their laser projectors. Which if implemented really well, or if multiple steps are available, is a good thing.
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post #657 of 2104 Old 07-23-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I saw in another thread that people are complaining about the Sony threads being dead. The insinuation was that this forum scared people off, but the reality is that no one is buying the cheaper 3xx/6xx Sony projectors relatively speaking. This is the ONLY reason they knocked the MSRP down to $7999 for the 365ES. The reality is that no one is talking about them because no one is buying them in relative terms. Their relative performance, coupled with several inherent issues (panel degradation, banding, posterization, relatively poor lens quality) and it's high price, which make them a poor value proposition, is why you see low ownership and not many people on the forum discussing these models as owners.
AVSFORUM: Obviously, DLP projectors sell better than LCOS projectors because they are cheaper, not because they are better.

Also AVSFORUM: Obviously, JVC projectors sell better than Sony Native 4K projectors because they are better, not because they are cheaper.

I honestly think some are upset with the hostility and double standards applied to some hardware manufacturers and/or technologies, just because some people have a different preference. I actually have received several PMs about this from various people thanking me for being active on the forum and presenting an alternative viewpoint other than JVC > *

I have no idea why this LCOS bulb projector discussion above was posted on a thread about a specific DLP laser projector. Seems totally off topic to me. I don't see these type of completely off topic posts in specific LCOS projector threads.
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Last edited by Ruined; 07-23-2017 at 09:45 AM.
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post #658 of 2104 Old 07-23-2017, 10:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Let's not make baseless assumptions raining on this projectors parade with no concrete info about this...
This is a bit ironic coming from a person who almost wholly posts information that has no concrete evidence supporting it. Please point to me a DLP dynamic contrast solution that has a 8x multiplier that is considered to be well implemented. I can help you out and tell you that there is no such projector out there. The better DI solutions from DLP projectors have a 2x-4x multiplier max. These would be from projectors like the Planar PD8150, Sim2 Lumis, Runco Q750i, ect. I HIGHLY doubt Optoma will give us several multiplier options to choose from. That would mean each mode would need to be optimized in software for it to be well implemented. Why spend the extra money to optimize several DI modes, when you can spend to have just one mode optimized?
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post #659 of 2104 Old 07-23-2017, 10:15 AM
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info from kraine:

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If you want a razor sharp image for 4K, you have to get an W11000 (or the Acer V9800) or the new X12000, they are the only home theater projectors equiped with a full glasses optical engine made for UHD/4K. All the smallest version from Optoma and Acer (UHD550X/UHD60/UHD65 or HT7850/V7850) use a 1080P optical engine.

hopefully Cine4home does a good tear down on these once released. curious we haven't heard from them on the current Optoma and BenQ models?
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post #660 of 2104 Old 07-23-2017, 10:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
AVSFORUM: Obviously, DLP projectors sell better than LCOS projectors because they are cheaper, not because they are better.

Also AVSFORUM: Obviously, JVC projectors sell better than Sony Native 4K projectors because they are better, not because they are cheaper.

I honestly think some are upset with the hostility and double standards applied to some hardware manufacturers and/or technologies, just because some people have a different preference. I actually have received several PMs about this from various people thanking me for being active on the forum and presenting an alternative viewpoint other than JVC > *

I have no idea why this LCOS bulb projector discussion above was posted on a thread about a specific DLP laser projector. Seems totally off topic to me. I don't see these type of completely off topic posts in specific LCOS projector threads.
There's hostility when someone, especially someone who hasn't actually seen the projectors he's discussing, says something that differs from the general opinion of the large pool of frequent posters on the forum who've spent time with these projectors in the same room at the same time and have drawn the same conclusions. The fact is, there are more people on the forum who've compared the JVCs to all the other high end options out there and have made the same conclusion that the JVC is superior overall. Obviously there are a couple others who've come to a different conclusion, but the majority of people who've seen and done comparisons are saying one thing. This is why there's hostility towards those who make claims otherwise. Have you seen the DLP projectors you're advocating for? Have you seen the JVC, Epson and Sony projectors you're advocating against? What first hand experience do you have to base such claims on? The answer to that question might give you some incite as to why there's so much hostility.

Last edited by Seegs108; 07-23-2017 at 10:42 AM.
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