Optoma UHZ65 - 4K laser ($4,500 MSRP) - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1561 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 06:55 AM
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Tested it on my new UHZ and see rainbows when the image has a lot of white in it.
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post #1562 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 07:40 AM
 
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All these reports of people seeing RBE are disappointing to read, that's a higher percentage than it should be. Sure, the sample is still low but it doesn't give me a good impression so far. Maybe using a RGBY wheel on this model wasn't such a good idea after all...

That really bugs me because here we have a report of somebody returning the UHZ65 based on the fact that they had a better picture on the UHD65, and low and behold, the UHD65 has a RGBRGB wheel.

This comes back full circle to what I've been saying all along : it makes no sense for Optoma to say the UHD65 is more geared towards home theater viewing than the UHD60 mostly because it has a RGBRGB color wheel over the 4 segment wheel of the UHD60, yet turn around and tell us they chose the 4 segment wheel on the UHZ65 because it's brighter. Then if that's true, why advertise the UHD60 more as a gaming/presentation device and the UHD65 as a home theater one ?

Home theater isn't supposed to be in bright environments, so that excuse of more brightness for picking a RGBY wheel seems more and more like what I'm calling it, an excuse. The more I read reports of people experiencing RBE and in some cases poorer black levels, the more I'm getting convinced of this.
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post #1563 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by eurotrance View Post
All these reports of people seeing RBE are disappointing to read, that's a higher percentage than it should be. Sure, the sample is still low but it doesn't give me a good impression so far. Maybe using a RGBY wheel on this model wasn't such a good idea after all...

That really bugs me because here we have a report of somebody returning the UHZ65 based on the fact that they had a better picture on the UHD65, and low and behold, the UHD65 has a RGBRGB wheel.

This comes back full circle to what I've been saying all along : it makes no sense for Optoma to say the UHD65 is more geared towards home theater viewing than the UHD60 mostly because it has a RGBRGB color wheel over the 4 segment wheel of the UHD60, yet turn around and tell us they chose the 4 segment wheel on the UHZ65 because it's brighter. Then if that's true, why advertise the UHD60 more as a gaming/presentation device and the UHD65 as a home theater one ?

Home theater isn't supposed to be in bright environments, so that excuse of more brightness for picking a RGBY wheel seems more and more like what I'm calling it, an excuse. The more I read reports of people experiencing RBE and in some cases poorer black levels, the more I'm getting convinced of this.
Couple of things-

* The UHD60 (RGBCY) greatly outsold the UHD65 (RGBRGB). So worth questioning how valuable is RGBRGB really to the typical consumer?
* There is only one laser "sku" and probably since its more niche that's all that's realistic right now
* Going both RGBRGB and dci-p3 would be around 35-40% light loss from what the UHZ65 offers
* A lot of people want laser primarily for brightness
* While RBE may degrade color fidelity, it doesn't physically bother most people
* More powerful laser = more cost - and might generate too much heat for the smaller Optoma chassis
* While native contrast is slightly lower, this is made up for much overall higher dynamic contrast

So to both hit this price point and have something brighter than the UHD65, RGBY might be only option. Not an excuse, just what is needed for affordable and bright 4K Laser at $4500. Also note Optoma seemed to classify this as a "professional" segment projector from the start, not strictly home theater. Plus for HDR, you can't get enough brightness, so it makes sense in that aspect as well.

I would say though, if you are a person that is truly bothered by RBE it sounds like this is not the pj for you. I would also take the increased RBE into the total picture quality equation which differs for each individual.

Myself, I was weighing this projector vs the Vivitek H9090 (1080p, SDR but BT2020 capable, 18x color wheel equivalent high speed cycling LEDs) and after the UHZ65 details were available decided it was a "push" because of some of the UHZ65 downsides, and went for the cheaper 1080p one (H9090). But I know many others wouldn't mind the UHZ65 disadvantages for its bright HDR and 4k capabilities, and wouldn't touch a 1080p projector.

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post #1564 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 08:33 AM
 
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Couple of things-

* The UHD60 (RGBCY) greatly outsold the UHD65 (RGBRGB)
* There is only one laser "sku"
* Going both RGBRGB and dci-p3 would be around 35-40% light loss from what the UHZ65 offers
* A lot of people want laser primarily for brightness
* While RBE may degrade color fidelity, it doesn't physically bother most people
* More powerful laser = more cost
* While native contrast is slightly lower, this is made up for much overall higher dynamic contrast

So to both hit this price point and have something brighter than the UHD65, RGBY might be only option. Not an excuse, just what is needed for affordable and bright 4K Laser at $4500. Also note Optoma seemed to classify this as a "professional" segment projector from the start, not strictly home theater.
I knew you would come in to defend Optoma once again but here is why some of your points don't hold any water :

- the UHD60 greatly outselling the UHD65 has no relevance in this matter, the UHD65 costs more, and has a smaller distribution (by the same token, Toyota sells more than Lexus, does that mean it's the better car ?)
- one laser SKU, unless you consider Acer VL7860 which comes at 1000 euros less in Europe
- 30-35% brightness loss with a projector that's geared towards home theater use just like the UHD65 is easily compensated by the use of that same laser and if the trade-off is much less RBE and better black levels, I doubt home theater enthusiasts would mind
- more powerful laser, more cost, unless you're Acer and come out with basically the same projector for 25% less
- isn't native contrast what matters for the black floor ?

But where I take most issue with your constant defense of all choices Optoma is with your last paragraph. How can you possibly say that that was a necessary choice to hit a price point of $4500 when Acer is selling the equivalent model for 1000 euros less in Europe ? Sure, you're going to tell me that Optoma is a small brand and Acer a much bigger one, yet isn't Coretronic the manufacturer for both models ? And I could see a price difference of 10-15%, but 25% ?

Now I'm starting to understand why Optoma did put the kibosh on the professional reviews from being published. Not that I didn't suspect why in the first place, as you very well know.
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post #1565 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 08:56 AM
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I knew you would come in to defend Optoma once again but here is why some of your points don't hold any water
I think their decision makes sense from a marketing perspective even if it doesn't win over all users. I try not to dictate to people what aspects of a projector they will like / not like.

Quote:
- the UHD60 greatly outselling the UHD65 has no relevance in this matter, the UHD65 costs more, and has a smaller distribution (by the same token, Toyota sells more than Lexus, does that mean it's the better car ?)
In this case where it appears only one SKU was feasible, Optoma went with the one that they thought would likely sell more (Toyota) than less (Lexus). Imagine if there was a new vehicle class (laser), if Toyota only offered Lexus as an option it would sell a lot less cars.

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- one laser SKU, unless you consider Acer VL7860 which comes at 1000 euros less in Europe
Right sort of irrelevant for me though since Acer seems to be locked out of NA market with 4k projectors, not sure why or if its a deal they made. The Acer also seems like it is a slightly lesser version of the UHZ65 with less PQ options and different chassis.

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- 30-35% brightness loss with a projector that's geared towards home theater use just like the UHD65 is easily compensated by the use of that same laser and if the trade-off is much less RBE and better black levels, I doubt home theater enthusiasts would mind
It might be a tough sell to many to charge $2000 more for the UHZ65 and have it no brighter than the UHD65.

Quote:
- more powerful laser, more cost, unless you're Acer and come out with basically the same projector for 25% less
The acer has a lesser chassis and also critical PQ options missing (i.e. no ability to adjust dynamic black level, only ON/OFF), and is not sold in the US.

Quote:
- isn't native contrast what matters for the black floor ?
Native contrast doesn't entirely dictate black level, no. The higher dynamic contrast on the UHZ65 can really help with the black levels on low brightness scenes.

Quote:
I take most issue with your constant defense of all choices Optoma is with your last paragraph. How can you possibly say that that was a necessary choice to hit a rice point of $4500 when Acer is selling the equivalent model for 1000 euros less in Europe ? Sure, you're going to tell me that Optoma is a small brand and Acer a much bigger one, yet isn't Coretronic the manufacturer for both models ? And I could see a price difference of 10-15%, but 25% ?
First, Optoma *is* Coretronic. So there may be a price premium simply not to price out manufacturers who want to license Coretronic designs like Acer. Second, the Acer has a different chassis and less firmware options, at least one of which is very important. Next the Acer isn't even available in the US at all. But if you think Acer offers a better deal why not just get the Acer?

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post #1566 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 09:00 AM
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It'll be here tomorrow and I'm definitely setting it up and trying it out. I don't even know what a rainbow effect looks like.
I never noticed it prior to now either. I wish I hadn't.

I think I could've adjusted and been fine with it -- as I noted, I didn't even notice it at first. The issue was that the family was now fixated on it. So that, combined with the different-but-still-really-good display I was getting from the UHD65 pushed me to my decision.

So, (if even possible at this point), definitely don't look for it, and don't mention its potential existence to anyone else viewing. I'll keep the fingers crossed for you!
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post #1567 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 09:03 AM
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I never noticed it prior to now either. I wish I hadn't.

I think I could've adjusted and been fine with it -- as I noted, I didn't even notice it at first. The issue was that the family was now fixated on it. So that, combined with the different-but-still-really-good display I was getting from the UHD65 pushed me to my decision.

So, (if even possible at this point), definitely don't look for it, and don't mention its potential existence to anyone else viewing. I'll keep the fingers crossed for you!
If you are open to 1080p I believe AVS has one Vivitek H9090 LED left which is not much more expensive than the UHD65 - and has an 18x equivalent cycling speed vs the 4x on the UHD65 that basically eliminates all traces of RBE entirely. Similar contrast and brightness as the UHD65, better motion, better color, better video processor, better input lag, solid state light source (20000 hours), and a better lens quality/shift as well. Plus uses super sharp 0.95" DMD. But no 4K, FI, or HDR. Similar DLP look but a higher end experience in all ways except 4K/HDR/FI, and its arguable the UHD65 doesn't have enough lumens to deliver a true HDR experience anyway.
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post #1568 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 09:10 AM
 
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I think their decision makes sense from a marketing perspective even if it doesn't win over all users. I try not to dictate to people what aspects of a projector they will like / not like.



In this case where it appears only one SKU was feasible, Optoma went with the one that they thought would likely sell more (Toyota) than less (Lexus). Imagine if there was a new vehicle class (laser), if Toyota only offered Lexus as an option it would sell a lot less cars.



Right sort of irrelevant for me though since Acer seems to be locked out of NA market with 4k projectors, not sure why or if its a deal they made. The Acer also seems like it is a slightly lesser version of the UHZ65 with less PQ options and different chassis.



It might be a tough sell to many to charge $2000 more for the UHZ65 and have it no brighter than the UHD65.



The acer has a lesser chassis and also critical PQ options missing (i.e. no ability to adjust dynamic black level, only ON/OFF), and is not sold in the US.



Native contrast doesn't entirely dictate black level, no. The higher dynamic contrast on the UHZ65 can really help with the black levels on low brightness scenes.



First, Optoma *is* Coretronic. So there may be a price premium simply not to price out manufacturers who want to license Coretronic designs like Acer. Second, the Acer has a different chassis and less firmware options, at least one of which is very important. Next the Acer isn't even available in the US at all. But if you think Acer offers a better deal why not just get the Acer?
The Acer comes out in the US first quarter 2018. Unfortunately that's too late for me as in the country where I live, neither will ever be sold, and even if they would be, it would be priced double to triple US MSRP.

I'm not sure why you keep saying that Acer doesn't sell their models in the US, the V7850 is available and the VL7860 will be as well.

As for Optoma's firmware advantages, here in a German forum, they were supposed to see a demo of the UHZ65 this past weekend and that didn't happen because the firmware is allegedly so buggy they postponed the demonstration and a firmware update (which requires a return to manufacturer) is mandatory to correct the apparently obvious bugs :

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-94-15016-4.html
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post #1569 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 09:17 AM
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The Acer comes out in the US first quarter 2018. Unfortunately that's too late for me as in the country where I live, neither will ever be sold, and even if they would be, it would be priced double to triple US MSRP.

I'm not sure why you keep saying that Acer doesn't sell their models in the US, the V7850 is available and the VL7860 will be as well.

As for Optoma's firmware advantages, here in a German forum, they were supposed to see a demo of the UHZ65 this past weekend and that didn't happen because the firmware is allegedly so buggy they postponed the demonstration and a firmware update (which requires a return to manufacturer) is mandatory to correct the apparently obvious bugs :

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-94-15016-4.html
I didn't know any acer 4k ever made it to the USA. The Acer v9800 never made it to the USA to my knowledge for instance.

I would venture even if the UHZ65 firmware has bugs it is likely to be more refined than the Acer firmware. In addition to offering more options like dynamic black level control, Optoma's parent company designed the UHZ65 so any core firmware fixes and updates I'd think would be implemented in the Optoma the quickest since it is internal.

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post #1570 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 12:00 PM
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That H9090 has that Vivitek lens...it was close to $10,000 new. That should tell you something.

Still, if you haven't yet seen the perception of 8.3 million pixels through a single chip DLP yet, you're also missing out there.
I'm not RBE sensitive, so I'll have to demo the UHZ65 myself and see what all this is really about.
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My projector came, did a quick setup, put Mad Max HDR on there with Apple TV 4k, compared it to my old Sony VPL-40ES with Apple TV 2k playing the same scene. One reason I wanted to upgrade projectors is how much better Mad Max looked at the theaters vs at home. Initial reaction is this:

WOW

off to do some more testing

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That H9090 has that Vivitek lens...it was close to $10,000 new. That should tell you something.

Still, if you haven't yet seen the perception of 8.3 million pixels through a single chip DLP yet, you're also missing out there.
I'm not RBE sensitive, so I'll have to demo the UHZ65 myself and see what all this is really about.
Oh believe my I'm not writing off the resolution difference. But there does not exist a solid state (a requirement of mine) 4k DLP yet with overall quality of the Vivitek H9090 under $10k, which makes sense because the Vivitek is now hugely discounted due to being an old 1080p model (not much more than UHD65). The UHZ65 made a lot of strides but isn't quite there yet IMO, and isn't really fair to compare since less than half the MSRP. Hopefully BenQ will nail it in 2018 or 2019 with their HT9050 successor(s). Note though with the combination of nice lens, LED, and 0.95" DMD you are basically getting some of the sharpest and most colorful 1080p out there with the H9090. Over 99% of my movie collection is 1080p BD, so that was also a factor to consider since I don't watch much HDTV - my HDTV provider is only 1080p also, btw. With the advantages vs disadvantages of the UHZ65 vs H9090 once the details of the former were available, I felt it was pretty much a push so I went for the now cheaper one (H9090).

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Do we have an update on Dave Harper? Hope he's doing well!
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Originally Posted by Alan Dail View Post
My projector came, did a quick setup, put Mad Max HDR on there with Apple TV 4k, compared it to my old Sony VPL-40ES with Apple TV 2k playing the same scene. One reason I wanted to upgrade projectors is how much better Mad Max looked at the theaters vs at home. Initial reaction is this:

WOW

off to do some more testing
Don't forget to set DYNAMIC BLACK to DB2 for best dynamic contrast levels
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post #1575 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 03:34 PM
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Note though with the combination of nice lens, LED, and 0.95" DMD you are basically getting some of the sharpest and most colorful 1080p out there with the H9090.
Oh, I know...that's one heck of projector you have, the pinnacle of DLP 1080P PJ tech for sure. It's basically the LS-5, 8150, or DPI Cine, but with LEDs, hence better color capabilities. I know you weren't happy with the LED dimming on it though. Now, if a company can do laser dimming very well, I would think it would be Optoma. They've been doing lamp dimming for years, and kind of pioneered it in these devices.
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Oh, I know...that's one heck of projector you have, the pinnacle of DLP 1080P PJ tech for sure. It's basically the LS-5, 8150, or DPI Cine, but with LEDs, hence better color capabilities. I know you weren't happy with the LED dimming on it though. Now, if a company can do laser dimming very well, I would think it would be Optoma. They've been doing lamp dimming for years, and kind of pioneered it in these devices.
Yeah when I first got it I wasn't 100% happy with the dimming but after viewing with a wide array of content I found the dimming artifacts were actually fairly rare, and I just happened to pick troublesome content within my original 4hr demo period. With more content viewed now I am overall very happy. Not that it can't be improved, but it's a stunning deal right now especially if interested in solid state under 3k.

Optoma appears on the UHZ65 to have gotten dimming especially right.
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post #1577 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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DB2 is legit on the UHZ65, black levels murders the UHD models.
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post #1578 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 08:37 PM
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If you get 8 million unique pixels aligned properly at 60hz no matter how it's accomplished it's 4K. If you had one mirror that flashed 480 million times every second to put up 8 million pixels small enough in grid then it would still be 4K.
But they're not in the right places. Which is precisely the point I'm making.

Does the upper left corner of this pattern look like a single pixel checkerboard to you?



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By Stereodudes definition of simultaneous pixel display being required, using the same logic single chip DLP should be considered monochrome instead of color, since DLP only displays one color at a time in rapid succession instead of simultaneously.
Well, they do suffer from the rainbow effect don't they? Why do you think that is? Because eyes see them as monochromatic.

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But they're not in the right places. Which is precisely the point I'm making.



Does the upper left corner of this pattern look like a single pixel checkerboard to you?









Well, they do suffer from the rainbow effect don't they? Why do you think that is? Because eyes see them as monochromatic.



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Can you please show us a native pic of this test pattern to demonstrate what it should look like? Also what equipment is displaying the example shown? Some of those anomalies look like they could be coming from a 1080p e-shift mechanism.
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But they're not in the right places. Which is precisely the point I'm making.

Does the upper left corner of this pattern look like a single pixel checkerboard to you?

Well, they do suffer from the rainbow effect don't they? Why do you think that is? Because eyes see them as monochromatic.

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The parallel between DLP color and 4k uhd resolution is actually right on. Pointing at a 4k test pattern and saying "a ha its not 4k!" is no different than pointing at a high contrast motion pattern or high speed photo to elicit the sequential color breakup and saying "a ha its not full color!" . Both are equally as inaccurate IMO.

DLP only displays one color at a time but we perceive a full color image. What happens if you start using test patterns and intensively look at it? With a simple high contrast motion pattern you see rainbow effect, the process to create a full color picture is not perfect, there are artifacts under some but not most circumstances. The process to assemble full color was designed for real content and not test patterns. This does not mean it is not a full color display, because the final color picture is based on perception assembled by your brain/eye, not what is on the screen at any one instant in time (a single color) .

DLP does the same with 4k UHD. It rapidly alternates between various pixel locations less than native 4k but we perceive a 4k image. What happens if you start using test patterns and intensively look at it? With various 4k pixel level tests one can see the test patterns are not perfect, there are artifacts under some but not most circumstances. The process to assemble 4k uhd was designed for real content and not test patterns. This does not mean it is not a 4k uhd display, because the final resolution is based on perception assembled by your brain/eye, not what is on the screen at any one instant in time (native resolution) .

Saying a dlp 4k uhd projector is not real 4k uhd is similar to saying a single chip dlp projector is not real color. Logically they operate on similar principles to create full color/4k uhd resolution and if ones logic is consistent I'd think one would have to call dlp monochromatic if claiming dlp is not 4k uhd. Of course I see no merit in that claim.
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post #1581 of 2104 Old 12-04-2017, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Pretty much what ruined said.

If the eye perceives 4K then it's 4K.

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post #1582 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 08:50 AM
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To me, one advantage of DLP projectors are their sharpness... A single chip DLP will always look sharper than a three-panel D-ILA. You cannot align a D-ILA or three-panel device perfectly.

But the psuedo-4K DLP chips offset that advantage a bit. If they ever develop a true 4K DLP panel, the picture would be fabulous. Too bad DLP cannot match the contrast levels of the current JVCs or get rid of the dreaded RBE which i am highly sensitive to...

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #1583 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bix26 View Post
Can you please show us a native pic of this test pattern to demonstrate what it should look like? Also what equipment is displaying the example shown?
I'm glad someone asked these two questions. Certain patterns are trickier than others and we should know which device is displaying the correct example. This is so because even some PJs equipped with the native 4k chips can still struggle with patterns due to their optics/lens limitations.

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Originally Posted by Jon S View Post
To me, one advantage of DLP projectors are their sharpness... A single chip DLP will always look sharper than a three-panel D-ILA. You cannot align a D-ILA or three-panel device perfectly.

But the psuedo-4K DLP chips offset that advantage a bit. If they ever develop a true 4K DLP panel, the picture would be fabulous. Too bad DLP cannot match the contrast levels of the current JVCs or get rid of the dreaded RBE which i am highly sensitive to...
These are good points. But I'd like to add that there are times when a three panel device will look sharper than even a single chip DLP. The lens is very important. I suppose if you compared some of the best lenses like say a high end JVC with a high end Vivitek, then, yes, all things being equal, the unit with the better convergence will yield sharper results. Fortunately, I do have a D-ILA that I was very, very lucky with...outstanding convergence and I can say its sharpness is some of the best I've seen regardless of the projector technology.

As far as rainbows in the UHZ65, it may not just be that there is a white segment in the color wheel. Lamp dimming may be contributing here; with these single chip DLPs, bright highlights on deep blacks can compound these artifacts at times.
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post #1584 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post
To me, one advantage of DLP projectors are their sharpness... A single chip DLP will always look sharper than a three-panel D-ILA. You cannot align a D-ILA or three-panel device perfectly.

But the psuedo-4K DLP chips offset that advantage a bit. If they ever develop a true 4K DLP panel, the picture would be fabulous. Too bad DLP cannot match the contrast levels of the current JVCs or get rid of the dreaded RBE which i am highly sensitive to...
TI could definitely put out an 0.95" native 4k DMD with similar contrast performance to the current 0.67" XPR chip. This 0.95" native 4k chip configuration would have a near-identical mirror density and thus should perform quite similarly in terms of contrast; however the size of the chip would require a larger lens, likely pushing a projector like this into the $10k-$30k range (at least at first, will likely drop over time). I am of the opinion that this will likely happen at some point but it is likely a low priority since this is a niche price segment - virtually every other DMD size is more important to address first (0.47" budget, 0.67" enthusiast/large venue, 1.38" pro).

Manufacturers can also avoid RBE by using high speed cycling LEDs as past Runco, DPI, Vivitek LED DLPs have accomplished at 18x colorwheel equivalent speed. Perhaps the Colorspark dual-rod 5000 lumen variant would fit the bill here, but it seems that has been dumped for brighter laser tech.

Unfortunately we aren't there yet, but the UHZ65 certainly shows a lot of promise for the future and demonstrates why high brightness combined with high dynamic contrast puts out a fantastic HDR experience based on owner's comments. I'm not sure native contrast is all that important when you get into the high lumens/high dynamic contrast arena, as the high dynamic contrast will allow dimming for good black level in dark scenes and the high brightness in bright HDR scenes will make your eyes perceive blacks darker than they actually are (same concept of how a dynamic iris works). I think it boils down to preference whether you'd rather have a truly eye-popping bright HDR highlights vs. very deep blacks but significantly less bright HDR highlights. Sort of like how there are two flat panel HDR standards - High Brightness/Low Contrast (Samsung/LCD) and Low Brightness/High Contrast (LG/OLED). Both accomplish a similar feat in making your eye/brain perceive high dynamic range in different ways.


The pieces of the puzzle for a all around grand slam DLP 4k projector are definitely there, but no manufacturer has yet assembled them.

Last edited by Ruined; 12-05-2017 at 10:04 AM.
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post #1585 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 10:50 AM
 
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Optoma UHZ65 - 4K laser ($4,500 MSRP)

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Originally Posted by eurotrance View Post
The Acer comes out in the US first quarter 2018. Unfortunately that's too late for me as in the country where I live, neither will ever be sold, and even if they would be, it would be priced double to triple US MSRP.



I'm not sure why you keep saying that Acer doesn't sell their models in the US, the V7850 is available and the VL7860 will be as well.



As for Optoma's firmware advantages, here in a German forum, they were supposed to see a demo of the UHZ65 this past weekend and that didn't happen because the firmware is allegedly so buggy they postponed the demonstration and a firmware update (which requires a return to manufacturer) is mandatory to correct the apparently obvious bugs :



http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-94-15016-4.html

But the UHZ65 can be had at almost the same cost, street price. It remains to be seen for the Acer.

We do show and have been advised of a FW update for these three models (UHD60/65, UHZ65). I don't know about other distributors, but apparently ones bought from us don't have to go to Optoma for it. We can do it on the remaining stock and for any sent to us.

If the Acer uses the same processing chip and doesn't have it implemented, then it'll be an issue on that as well. Maybe that's what's holding it up from being sold in the USA? I do recall seeing it listed at one of our distributors sites though. I'll have to investigate if I get time.

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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
TI could definitely put out an 0.95" native 4k DMD with similar contrast performance to the current 0.67" XPR chip. This 0.95" native 4k chip configuration would have a near-identical mirror density and thus should perform quite similarly in terms of contrast; however the size of the chip would require a larger lens, likely pushing a projector like this into the $10k-$30k range (at least at first, will likely drop over time). I am of the opinion that this will likely happen at some point but it is likely a low priority since this is a niche price segment - virtually every other DMD size is more important to address first (0.47" budget, 0.67" enthusiast/large venue, 1.38" pro).



Manufacturers can also avoid RBE by using high speed cycling LEDs as past Runco, DPI, Vivitek LED DLPs have accomplished at 18x colorwheel equivalent speed. Perhaps the Colorspark dual-rod 5000 lumen variant would fit the bill here, but it seems that has been dumped for brighter laser tech.



Unfortunately we aren't there yet, but the UHZ65 certainly shows a lot of promise for the future and demonstrates why high brightness combined with high dynamic contrast puts out a fantastic HDR experience based on owner's comments. I'm not sure native contrast is all that important when you get into the high lumens/high dynamic contrast arena, as the high dynamic contrast will allow dimming for good black level in dark scenes and the high brightness in bright HDR scenes will make your eyes perceive blacks darker than they actually are (same concept of how a dynamic iris works). I think it boils down to preference whether you'd rather have a truly eye-popping bright HDR highlights vs. very deep blacks but significantly less bright HDR highlights. Sort of like how there are two flat panel HDR standards - High Brightness/Low Contrast (Samsung/LCD) and Low Brightness/High Contrast (LG/OLED). Both accomplish a similar feat in making your eye/brain perceive high dynamic range in different ways.





The pieces of the puzzle for a all around grand slam DLP 4k projector are definitely there, but no manufacturer has yet assembled them.
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Originally Posted by eurotrance View Post
All these reports of people seeing RBE are disappointing to read, that's a higher percentage than it should be. Sure, the sample is still low but it doesn't give me a good impression so far. Maybe using a RGBY wheel on this model wasn't such a good idea after all...



That really bugs me because here we have a report of somebody returning the UHZ65 based on the fact that they had a better picture on the UHD65, and low and behold, the UHD65 has a RGBRGB wheel.



This comes back full circle to what I've been saying all along : it makes no sense for Optoma to say the UHD65 is more geared towards home theater viewing than the UHD60 mostly because it has a RGBRGB color wheel over the 4 segment wheel of the UHD60, yet turn around and tell us they chose the 4 segment wheel on the UHZ65 because it's brighter. Then if that's true, why advertise the UHD60 more as a gaming/presentation device and the UHD65 as a home theater one ?



Home theater isn't supposed to be in bright environments, so that excuse of more brightness for picking a RGBY wheel seems more and more like what I'm calling it, an excuse. The more I read reports of people experiencing RBE and in some cases poorer black levels, the more I'm getting convinced of this.

I'm sure they had to make a conscious decision of more brightness for HDR and image pop or slightly better colors with less RBE and much less brightness and the decision they made, for THIS particular model was to go with the former. I'm sure they knew with either decision they'd piss someone off and lock someone out of their "must haves", which you must be one of.

Just take that for what it is, understand their decision, accept it and move on. Just stop slamming them for no good reason. These types of business/marketing decisions happen every day and unless YOU are the company putting forth that capital or an employee or stockholder of, you really don't have a say in it. If these were the criteria to piss all over a particular company, then every one would be criticized to no end from one angle or another.

Success of their decision is measured by sales, so unless the UHZ65 totally bombs, then they made the right one.

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Originally Posted by reanimator View Post
Do we have an update on Dave Harper? Hope he's doing well!

Yes, I died and now I'm the ghost of Dave Harper, haunting AVS forever!!!!
(I'm sure a few members would just LOVE that, haha!)

All kidding aside, thanks for your and everyone's well wishes through this scary time! I'm back home now, out of ICU on tons of meds. I had fluid in my heart and lungs this time, so must've had an underlying infection going on that they didn't catch when I was in last week and they treated me for the blood clots which caused heart issues.

I haven't been well enough to mount the UHZ65 yet and the Sony should be here today. Hopefully I'll be well enough soon to check them out and give you guys something.

Last edited by Dave Harper; 12-05-2017 at 11:53 AM.
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post #1586 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I'm sure they had to make a conscious decision of more brightness for HDR and image pop or slightly better colors with less RBE and much less brightness and the decision they made, for THIS particular model was to go with the former. I'm sure they knew with either decision they'd puss someone off and lock someone out of their "must haves", which you must be one of.

Just take that for what it is, understand their decision, accept it and move on. Just stop slamming them for no good reason. These types of business/marketing decisions happen every day and unless YOU are the company putting forth that capital or an employee or stockholder of, you really don't have a say in it. If these were the criteria to piss all over a particular company, then every one would be criticized to no end from one angle or another.

Success of their decision is measured by sales, so unless the UHZ65 totally bombs, then they made the right one.
I would also note, while the UHZ65 chassis is not by any means tiny, it is a lot smaller than say the HT9050 chassis, and there was likely a limit to how powerful of a laser they could put in due to heat/noise restrictions. The RGBY wheel saves about 35%-40% brightness loss over RGBRGB+yellow notch, which means a much lower power laser could be used for the same brightness.
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post #1587 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
But the UHZ65 can be had at almost the same cost, street price. It remains to be seen for the Acer.

We do show and have been advised of a FW update for these three models (UHD60/65, UHZ65). I don't know about other distributors, but apparently ones bought from us don't have to go to Optoma for it. We can do it on the remaining stock and for any sent to us.

If the Acer uses the same processing chip and doesn't have it implemented, then it'll be an issue on that as well. Maybe that's what's holding it up from being sold in the USA? I do recall seeing it listed at one of our distributors sites though. I'll have to investigate if I get time.




I'm sure they had to make a conscious decision of more brightness for HDR and image pop or slightly better colors with less RBE and much less brightness and the decision they made, for THIS particular model was to go with the former. I'm sure they knew with either decision they'd piss someone off and lock someone out of their "must haves", which you must be one of.

Just take that for what it is, understand their decision, accept it and move on. Just stop slamming them for no good reason. These types of business/marketing decisions happen every day and unless YOU are the company putting forth that capital or an employee or stockholder of, you really don't have a say in it. If these were the criteria to piss all over a particular company, then every one would be criticized to no end from one angle or another.

Success of their decision is measured by sales, so unless the UHZ65 totally bombs, then they made the right one.




Yes, I died and now I'm the ghost of Dave Harper, haunting AVS forever!!!!
(I'm sure a few members would just LOVE that, haha!)

All kidding aside, thanks for your and everyone's well wishes through this scary time! I'm back home now, out of ICU on tons of meds. I had fluid in my heart and lungs this time, so must've had an underlying infection going on that they didn't catch when I was in last week and they treated me for the blood clots which caused heart issues.

I haven't been well enough to mount the UHZ65 yet and the Sony should be here today. Hopefully I'll be well enough soon to check them out and give you guys something.


Glad your doing better!
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post #1588 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 01:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
But the UHZ65 can be had at almost the same cost, street price. It remains to be seen for the Acer.
I guess my negotiating skills suck. Assuming price parity from euros to dollars, which is usually close in terms of electronics (not always, I admit), the Acer would come in at $3600 since the Optoma is $4500 MSRP and taking into account the price difference in Europe (25%). That puts the dealer's margin at $300 in order to get the Optoma for $3600. I couldn't get any dealer to go that low and apparently neither did anybody in this thread or the other. Even assuming the Acer coming in at $4000, I wasn't able to get that price either with any of the projector stores ($4100 is the lowest it went).

Quote:
We do show and have been advised of a FW update for these three models (UHD60/65, UHZ65). I don't know about other distributors, but apparently ones bought from us don't have to go to Optoma for it. We can do it on the remaining stock and for any sent to us.
Could you please find out what that firmware update fixes ? I still have a few days to decide if I'm going to get the UHZ65 but the simple fact that from the get go an update that can only be performed by the dealer or manufacturer is required rubs me the wrong way. There is such a thing as USB to RS232 adapters and not all of us are dummies when it comes to computer and IT so this is just unacceptable to me. In my case, the projector needs to take a one way ticket to a far away country where Optoma doesn't even exist, so that mandatory return to manufacturer for a firmware update is a huge pain in the you know what.

Quote:
I haven't been well enough to mount the UHZ65 yet and the Sony should be here today. Hopefully I'll be well enough soon to check them out and give you guys something.
I hope and pray your condition improves quickly so that we can be the ones stressing you out and not medical issues.
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post #1589 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
But the UHZ65 can be had at almost the same cost, street price. It remains to be seen for the Acer.

We do show and have been advised of a FW update for these three models (UHD60/65, UHZ65). I don't know about other distributors, but apparently ones bought from us don't have to go to Optoma for it. We can do it on the remaining stock and for any sent to us.

I haven't been well enough to mount the UHZ65 yet and the Sony should be here today. Hopefully I'll be well enough soon to check them out and give you guys something.

Glad to have you back! So...I'm curious about the firmware update/fix; what does it do for the UHD65 and for the UHZ65?
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post #1590 of 2104 Old 12-05-2017, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
But the UHZ65 can be had at almost the same cost, street price. It remains to be seen for the Acer.

We do show and have been advised of a FW update for these three models (UHD60/65, UHZ65). I don't know about other distributors, but apparently ones bought from us don't have to go to Optoma for it. We can do it on the remaining stock and for any sent to us.
HATE IT when these companies do this. Any basic engineer can figure out how to do a firmware update over the network of USB drive. Anyone finds the update on the web let us know.
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