Vivitek HK2299 4K - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 357 Old 06-28-2017, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
@RLBURNSIDE

We may not have the manuals for the Vivitek's yet, but we do have that information:

Wide 1.5x zoom range and vertical lens shift for greater installation convenience and flexibility

But will the Viviteks feature good frame interpolation?

Advanced video processor for fluid video streaming and 12-bit programmable RGB colour adjustments


UPDATE: It would appear Vivitek doesn't really understand what its projectors are capable of and what not: https://www.vivitekusa.com/productdetail/HK2288/


While there still is no user manual for the (black) Vivitek HK2288 or its (white) sibling HK2488, you can find the product catalog 2017 under "documents" with page # 35 featuring Vivitek's home theater range for 2017.


According to the specifications neither the HK2288 nor the HK2488 do have any lens shift capability but come with an offset of 115%, i.e. they have to hang above the top edge of the projected image.


Whether they do have "VividMotion" frame interpolation (probably the same as Optoma's "PureMotion" utilizing Pixelworks' outstanding "Motion Engine") is equally unclear as that is a feature listed for all their home theater projectors, but so is "3D" which the HK 4K DLP models most likely won't have.

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post #32 of 357 Old 06-28-2017, 04:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Most of the lower cost DLP's use a small lens with limited throw. This saves them money, but also reduces the amount of lens shift that is possible. Looks like these new XPR DLP's are following that same path with regards to the lens.
The lenses on these 4Ks are way bigger than the one on my w1070, and the throw ratio is up to nearly double. I think these are different classes of beast. But if I can see the gaps between the pixels on a w1070 then I should be able to see more than 1080p res on this, despite it being dirt cheap. I'm sure these new projectors have better lenses. CA is a bit more annoying, but not that noticeable.

From reports I don't think the lenses will be what holds people back from buying these FauxK DLPs. It'll be the low contrast and lack of 3D, which is one huge advantage that DLPs have over everything else, so it's weird they aren't capitalising it. Especially since TI's controller board for this DMD supports 3D out of the box.
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post #33 of 357 Old 06-28-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
The lenses on these 4Ks are way bigger than the one on my w1070, and the throw ratio is up to nearly double. I think these are different classes of beast. But if I can see the gaps between the pixels on a w1070 then I should be able to see more than 1080p res on this, despite it being dirt cheap. I'm sure these new projectors have better lenses. CA is a bit more annoying, but not that noticeable.

From reports I don't think the lenses will be what holds people back from buying these FauxK DLPs. It'll be the low contrast and lack of 3D, which is one huge advantage that DLPs have over everything else, so it's weird they aren't capitalising it. Especially since TI's controller board for this DMD supports 3D out of the box.
More to 3d than that, I believe due to 2716x1528 and video processing for 1080p 3d.

DPI is only manufacture I know that successfully implemented 3D with the 0.67" XPR DMD and to do so they had to have one hdmi 2.0A port for 4k only and another hdmi 1.4 port for 3d only.

This makes me think the 4k video processors used by these xpr DLPs don't have resources to do 3d and dpi had to do this expensive workaround of having two totally separate video processing hardware paths into the same pj to allow 3d. This is in the E-Vision Laser 4k BTW ($20k).

I'd also argue these Optoma/Vivitek DLPs are basically stripped transition models, designed to maybe allow people to forgive no 3d while providing native 4k-like detail at 1/4 the price of a native 4k lcos. To allow people to get a taste of 4k without draining bank account, then sell in 2yr for better pj.

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post #34 of 357 Old 07-19-2017, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
@RLBURNSIDE

We may not have the manuals for the Vivitek's yet, but we do have that information:

Wide 1.5x zoom range and vertical lens shift for greater installation convenience and flexibility

But will the Viviteks feature good frame interpolation?

Advanced video processor for fluid video streaming and 12-bit programmable RGB colour adjustments

what does the 1.5x zoom range mean? my benQ has 1.3 zoom...?

my dilemma with all 4k projectors I've seen so far is that I just can't get a big enough image from 14-15' back. And with many apologies to image purists out there, I'm looking for a 144" wide image. I don't watch 16:9 that way but for movies I absolutely do.

My BenQ is mounted 13'9" (+/-) from the screen and it's perfect because I can run the zoom all the way one way for 16:9 (60" tall image +/-) and all the way the other way for 2.35:1 (144" wide image +/-)
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post #35 of 357 Old 07-20-2017, 01:52 PM
 
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Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:

Quote:
The DLP660TE [.67" XPR DMD] is intended for use in a 4K UHD system and supports UHD displays. Furthermore, these displays must run at 50Hz or 60Hz. The front end processor will convert any input frame rate to either 50Hz or 60Hz.If the input is an integer multiple of 50Hz or 60 Hz, the front end will use 2:2 pulldown, otherwise it will use 3:2 pulldown. These configurations are not currently programmable. Any source with a resolution lower than UHD will be upscaled by the front end processor to UHD. The DLPC4422 controller does allow different levels of control to drive the DMD, but it’s the decision of the system integrator on how to configure the final system.
So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.
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post #36 of 357 Old 07-20-2017, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:



So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.
Some don't feel 3:2 pulldown is a big deal. In fact, this Projector Central writer prefers 3:2 judder over 24p judder:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

It is a less purist view, but worth considering. I personally would prefer having the straight 24p option but it wouldn't be a deal-killer for me.
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post #37 of 357 Old 07-20-2017, 03:19 PM
 
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Some don't feel 3:2 pulldown is a big deal. In fact, this Projector Central writer prefers 3:2 judder over 24p judder:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

It is a less purist view, but worth considering. I personally would prefer having the straight 24p option but it wouldn't be a deal-killer for me.
Please do not try and make it seem like not having proper 24p playback is not a big deal. This feature has been supported by every single home theater projector for the past 10 years. When you're spending thousands of dollars it should be an included feature, especially since these are being marketed and sold as "home theater" projectors where the the end user is expected to be playing films (aka 24p content) back quite often.

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post #38 of 357 Old 07-24-2017, 08:33 AM
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Please do not try and make it seem like not having proper 24p playback is not a big deal. This feature has been supported by every single home theater projector for the past 10 years. When you're spending thousands of dollars it should be an included feature, especially since these are being marketed and sold as "home theater" projectors where the the end user is expected to be playing films (aka 24p content) back quite often.

So Evan Powell was wrong when he stated:


"Actually, we've never seen 24 fps film quite this naked even in a commercial movie theater since the double shuttering action of the movie theater's projection system reduces the experience of judder and flicker. You can see some judder in the movie theater, but it is not as pronounced as it is on a digital home theater projector playing Blu-ray or HD DVD at 24p."


"The motion judder in native 24p can be atrocious. You can test it yourself if you have the equipment to do it. We'll assume that if you have a Blu-ray player, you are more likely to have a copy of Casino Royale than Casablanca. If you do, find a messy panning scene in Casino Royale. There are lots of them, but there's a real beauty in the 9th chapter, starting at 1 hour, 11 minutes and 13 seconds. The dealer is dealing, and the camera pans slowly around the table.
In 24p playback, this scene is a pure, unmitigated disaster. The people seated at the table come apart at the seams, the tuxes flash and strobe, the Casino Royale logo on the card table blinks like a neon sign. Once you've replayed this travesty a few times, switch your Blu-ray player to 60p output and run it again. Yes, it is still a mess. But look at it closely ... the juddering effect is actually reduced."





I couldn't care less about features "every single home theater projector supported for the past 10 years". How about these obnoxious "sharpness" settings that emphasize edge enhancement...


If 24p isn't what we actually experienced in real theaters, then it comes down to the choice to pick your poison, either 24p or 60p and it's up to the user which of the two he or she perceives as the lesser of two evils, right?

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post #39 of 357 Old 07-24-2017, 08:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
So Evan Powell was wrong when he stated:


"Actually, we've never seen 24 fps film quite this naked even in a commercial movie theater since the double shuttering action of the movie theater's projection system reduces the experience of judder and flicker. You can see some judder in the movie theater, but it is not as pronounced as it is on a digital home theater projector playing Blu-ray or HD DVD at 24p."


"The motion judder in native 24p can be atrocious. You can test it yourself if you have the equipment to do it. We'll assume that if you have a Blu-ray player, you are more likely to have a copy of Casino Royale than Casablanca. If you do, find a messy panning scene in Casino Royale. There are lots of them, but there's a real beauty in the 9th chapter, starting at 1 hour, 11 minutes and 13 seconds. The dealer is dealing, and the camera pans slowly around the table.
In 24p playback, this scene is a pure, unmitigated disaster. The people seated at the table come apart at the seams, the tuxes flash and strobe, the Casino Royale logo on the card table blinks like a neon sign. Once you've replayed this travesty a few times, switch your Blu-ray player to 60p output and run it again. Yes, it is still a mess. But look at it closely ... the juddering effect is actually reduced."





I couldn't care less about features "every single home theater projector supported for the past 10 years". How about these obnoxious "sharpness" settings that emphasize edge enhancement...


If 24p isn't what we actually experienced in real theaters, then it comes down to the choice to pick your poison, either 24p or 60p and it's up to the user which of the two he or she perceives as the lesser of two evils, right?
I don't think you actually understood what Evan Powell said. The double shuttering he's referring to is for old 35mm film projectors, not the digital projectors commercial theaters use today. He's saying that we never actually see 24fps in it's raw format because of things like double shutter (Black Frame Insertion) or pulldown used in the digital world. With pulldown there will be more visible judder from the source, but most films have competent DPs. Motion judder in the source is not all that common to the point of it being distracting. 3:2 judder is far more common to be seen during playback and this is the reason why displays offer and employ a proper 24p playback mode. The DCI projectors they use today work exactly the same way our home theater projectors work. They use some form of pulldown where the same frame is flashed on screen 2 or more times at the same rate of the source frame rate. These DCI projectors DO NOT use using 3:2 pulldown where some frames are flashed more frequently than others adding judder to the motion that wasn't there to begin with. Actual 24p isn't what we experience anywhere, but for the past 10 years pretty much all home theater projectors offered a mode that emulates exactly what you see at commercial theaters with the way 24p is handled. These XPR models do not recreate that same experience. You guys trying to justify this missing feature really makes me chuckle.

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post #40 of 357 Old 07-24-2017, 09:15 AM
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So Evan Powell was wrong when he stated:
I would say so, I've never seen worse judder with 24p output than with 60p output. I'd be curious to know what projector he was using that he came to that conclusion. Kind of sounds to me like he had a projector that didn't handle 24p correctly, or maybe a player that didn't output it correctly. And that wasn't super uncommon in 2008 when that article was written.
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I would say so, I've never seen worse judder with 24p output than with 60p output. I'd be curious to know what projector he was using that he came to that conclusion. Kind of sounds to me like he had a projector that didn't handle 24p correctly, or maybe a player that didn't output it correctly. And that wasn't super uncommon in 2008 when that article was written.
Exactly. 3:2 judder is far more common to see while watching a movie. This is why displays offer a competent pulldown mode to show the content at a multiple of 24. If 3:2 pulldown showed less motion issues that would be what these displays would use. It's really baffling to me how people are defending the lack of 24p support on these models. I can choose 24p or 60p output to any other projector. I have the option for proper pulldown or 3:2 pulldown on all other projectors, but not the XPR models. You're forced to use just one method.
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post #42 of 357 Old 07-24-2017, 10:42 AM
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Exactly. 3:2 judder is far more common to see while watching a movie. This is why displays offer a competent pulldown mode to show the content at a multiple of 24. If 3:2 pulldown showed less motion issues that would be what these displays would use. It's really baffling to me how people are defending the lack of 24p support on these models. I can choose 24p or 60p output to any other projector. I have the option for proper pulldown or 3:2 pulldown on all other projectors, but not the XPR models. You're forced to use just one method.
Things can change with time and firmware. Everyone was dead set that this new XPRs also couldn't do 3D, but now apparently BenQ is providing firmware to enable it. It is very possible that this chipset is very much limited to 50hz/60hz for now, but in the future with different color wheel timing could provide 24p. The documentation for the chipset seems to indicate the chipset is capable of 24p multiples, but that does not mean the firmware for the chipset is capable of doing so currently.
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Things can change with time and firmware. Everyone was dead set that this new XPRs also couldn't do 3D, but now apparently BenQ is providing firmware to enable it. It is very possible that this chipset is very much limited to 50hz/60hz for now, but in the future with different color wheel timing could provide 24p. The documentation for the chipset seems to indicate the chipset is capable of 24p multiples, but that does not mean the firmware for the chipset is capable of doing so currently.
It's too little too late. TI has said the specific chipset used in these generation 1 XPR models have to refresh at either 50 or 60hz at 4K/UHD. There is no other way to do it so a firmware update is not possible to retrofit this feature.
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It's too little too late. TI has said the specific chipset used in these generation 1 XPR models have to refresh at either 50 or 60hz at 4K/UHD. There is no other way to do it so a firmware update is not possible to retrofit this feature.
Same was said about 3d but it still is apparently happening via firmware.

Anyway, it's just another aspect/feature to consider when weighing what projector to buy.
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Same was said about 3d but it still is apparently happening via firmware.

Anyway, it's just another aspect/feature to consider when weighing what projector to buy.
No one from TI said 3D wasn't supported. It just wasn't a feature included at launch. The 24p limitation is a hardware one. It isn't going to happen. This is 100% confirmed by TI themselves. A new control board or revision of it will need to happen for it to be supported.
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post #46 of 357 Old 07-26-2017, 07:10 PM
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https://www.vivitekusa.com/productdetail/HK2299-BK/ looks like it is HK2299 and the other two are pulled.
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post #47 of 357 Old 07-27-2017, 01:11 AM
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sigh.... Rec 709....
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No one from TI said 3D wasn't supported. It just wasn't a feature included at launch. The 24p limitation is a hardware one. It isn't going to happen. This is 100% confirmed by TI themselves. A new control board or revision of it will need to happen for it to be supported.
Makes me think LCoS and 3LCD will be going 4K or at least higher native eshift soon. Why else would they rush out these products without such basic features? At least they will get a few suckers to buy these units.
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post #49 of 357 Old 07-27-2017, 04:37 AM
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No one from TI said 3D wasn't supported. It just wasn't a feature included at launch. The 24p limitation is a hardware one. It isn't going to happen. This is 100% confirmed by TI themselves. A new control board or revision of it will need to happen for it to be supported.
Ah. So when you crossposted this to every DLP 4K thread, why did you purposely fail to mention the 100% confirmed programmer's guide that is coming out in August/September - which could potentially allow changes to be made to the stock settings of the DLPC4422 such as 24p?

I read their response and it appears that what you have posted here is incomplete information - and your post I quoted here is in fact not 100% confirmed by TI - as when you brought up this being a hardware limitation TI responded with the possibility of the programmer's guide coming out in the future allowing for change of the default behavior of the chip.

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sigh.... Rec 709....
LED or Laser is what you need for p3 w/ DLP. Lamp will be rec709...
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Vivitek Reviews?

Question for you all, I'm looking at a few different projector options and it looks like I can get a Vivitek 2299 at around the same price as an Espon 5040. I haven't been able to find any reviews on the 2299, so has anyone seen one in the wild?

We're in the process of building a house so I've got a few months before I need to pull the trigger on anything but I'm trying to at least narrow down my options.

Thanks in advance.
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post #52 of 357 Old 08-11-2017, 12:03 PM
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Question for you all, I'm looking at a few different projector options and it looks like I can get a Vivitek 2299 at around the same price as an Espon 5040. I haven't been able to find any reviews on the 2299, so has anyone seen one in the wild?

We're in the process of building a house so I've got a few months before I need to pull the trigger on anything but I'm trying to at least narrow down my options.

Thanks in advance.
What is your room like?
What size screen
AT or solid screen?
What is viewing distance?
What do you want to use the projector for, as in what will you be watching on the projector?
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post #53 of 357 Old 08-11-2017, 12:05 PM
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Question for you all, I'm looking at a few different projector options and it looks like I can get a Vivitek 2299 at around the same price as an Espon 5040. I haven't been able to find any reviews on the 2299, so has anyone seen one in the wild?

We're in the process of building a house so I've got a few months before I need to pull the trigger on anything but I'm trying to at least narrow down my options.

Thanks in advance.
I suggest you read the reviews of the other XPR DLPs (Optoma UHD60/65, Acer, etc), they should be "enlightening".
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post #54 of 357 Old 08-11-2017, 04:07 PM
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I suggest you read the reviews of the other XPR DLPs (Optoma UHD60/65, Acer, etc), they should be "enlightening".
That is assuming that you can find a legitimate review like Kraine's or ProjectorReviews.com.

There are at least a half dozen other reviews that proclaim the Optoma XPR DLPs to be the best true 4K projectors under $15k with true 4K resolution, extremely high contrast, amazing black levels, and the best HDR presentation available in their price class.

To make it worse if you go to Optoma's website it basically claims the same thing. Did you know that the UHD65 has 1,200,000:1 contrast, Full BT2020 support, and true 4K UHD resolution? It does according to Optoma. But according to Kraine, calibrated native contrast is really only 1050:1 and dynamic contrast is only 1600:1. The projector can barely hit rec 709 and calibrated brightness on high lamp is only 867 lumens. Does anyone really believe that this projector can deliver the best HDR in it's price class or the best true 4K image under $15k?

I am not trying to dog this projector or Optoma as it is a nice offering for the price. But I can't stand when you read so much hype from reviewers and retailers on the web. It makes trying to sift through the false information to buy a decent projector difficult.
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post #55 of 357 Old 09-03-2017, 07:29 AM
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When is the release date for this projector? Will it ever make it to market? Seems like there are multiple threads and even a few video's, but no projector? Looking forward to learning more about it. If you look at the threads there seems to be a lot of disappointed people. The JVC guys are unhappy because the new projectors appear to very incremental at best. The Sony people have the most "new stuff" to look into, but not happy either with what they are hearing from IFA(German version of Cedia) and well, so far, the Epson people have nothing to look forward to, same old 5040ub. LOL

I must admit it is painful to see this snails pace crawl to 4k(or close to 4k) evolution. I currently own a 5030ub and join the crowd in disappointment

So, looking hard at the DLP projectors, but I require 3D for a projector to qualify. This Vivtek so far seems to be the only thing out there that mayyyy have 3d and greatly enhanced sharpness and under 5k. I know the blacks most likely will not be as good, but I like the better sharpness I am seeing with the UHD65. We will have to see if Cedia brings any more news this next week. Waiting with my $'s to see if anything is a big enough leap forward for the under 5k range.
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post #56 of 357 Old 09-03-2017, 08:07 AM
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When is the release date for this projector? Will it ever make it to market? Seems like there are multiple threads and even a few video's, but no projector? Looking forward to learning more about it. If you look at the threads there seems to be a lot of disappointed people. The JVC guys are unhappy because the new projectors appear to very incremental at best. The Sony people have the most "new stuff" to look into, but not happy either with what they are hearing from IFA(German version of Cedia) and well, so far, the Epson people have nothing to look forward to, same old 5040ub. LOL

I must admit it is painful to see this snails pace crawl to 4k(or close to 4k) evolution. I currently own a 5030ub and join the crowd in disappointment

So, looking hard at the DLP projectors, but I require 3D for a projector to qualify. This Vivtek so far seems to be the only thing out there that mayyyy have 3d and greatly enhanced sharpness and under 5k. I know the blacks most likely will not be as good, but I like the better sharpness I am seeing with the UHD65. We will have to see if Cedia brings any more news this next week. Waiting with my $'s to see if anything is a big enough leap forward for the under 5k range.
I'm currently in your boat. 5-10k range and it's been really disappointing. Hoping Sony reports are good when people get hands on and get more information out. Epson was a joke. All they needed was 18gbps HDMI. DLP news has been way to slow with new units. The Vivitek has completely flopped based on initial impressions being a virtual no show and delayed. Hopefully CEDIA gets more info out on any that may be showing up. Mean time I'm waiting again on the Sony's to see if there are any hard stops (HDMI being 13.5gbps) and of course see what JVC has improved especially in regards to eshift5.
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post #57 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 03:57 AM
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I'm currently in your boat. 5-10k range and it's been really disappointing. Hoping Sony reports are good when people get hands on and get more information out. Epson was a joke. All they needed was 18gbps HDMI. DLP news has been way to slow with new units. The Vivitek has completely flopped based on initial impressions being a virtual no show and delayed. Hopefully CEDIA gets more info out on any that may be showing up. Mean time I'm waiting again on the Sony's to see if there are any hard stops (HDMI being 13.5gbps) and of course see what JVC has improved especially in regards to eshift5.
I bet Vivitek is waiting for the update that enables 3d from TI. It's been delayed this much might as well wait for that.
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post #58 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 05:39 AM
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I wonder what happend to the review Projectorreviews.com were working on, this is what the wrote on the UHD65 review:

Quote:
 There’s also their newer, lower cost ($2199) HC4000 that we’re reviewing after the Vivitek HK2299. (Eric is calibrating both at the time I’m publishing this review 7/18/17.)
That was in mid July

This on their review of the Epson HC4000

Quote:
 There’s also the almost (at this time) shipping Vivitek 2288, but with one in house at this time, the Vivitek comes up short overall compared to the Optoma, so the Vivitek is even less of a competitor.  In fairness, we’ve been working with a pre-production HK2288 projector.
that was end of July.

Vivitek pull it completely, just for the 3D update? It's pretty strange honestly, or is this a normal occurence in the projectorbusiness?
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post #59 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 05:54 AM
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I bet Vivitek is waiting for the update that enables 3d from TI. It's been delayed this much might as well wait for that.
Could be. I believe if they want to make a splash they need to come with something. If the rumors with the Sony's are true (short of their flagship) this leaves a DLP solution back on the table as most don't want sacrifices like 4K HDR banding in the $5,000 up market.

With respectable pricing and FI with 4K in low input lag and color outside rec709 this would be an excellent thing to consider.
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post #60 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 06:09 AM
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Could be. I believe if they want to make a splash they need to come with something. If the rumors with the Sony's are true (short of their flagship) this leaves a DLP solution back on the table as most don't want sacrifices like 4K HDR banding in the $5,000 up market.

With respectable pricing and FI with 4K in low input lag and color outside rec709 this would be an excellent thing to consider.
By end of year dlp 4k shortcomings should be addressed.

August 2017 TI firmware enabled native 24p @ 48hz 2:2

By end of year should have 3D too

More compelling feature set out of box than uhd65 for instance
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