Vivitek HK2299 4K - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
By end of year dlp 4k shortcomings should be addressed.

August 2017 TI firmware enabled native 24p @ 48hz 2:2

By end of year should have 3D too

More compelling feature set out of box than uhd65 for instance
That will help. This has a lot more to be considered though depending on what you consider short comings. Low Contrast including ANSI for example won't be addressed. I can't see them reaching past 709 necessarily. What do you think? Seems to me these need to drop significantly in price. If Sony drops a native 4k @ $5,000 the walls will be closing in on this DLP chip by next year. I can't see JVC waiting any longer to drop their native 4k or who knows what Epson will do. Basically Optoma struck at an awesome time and delivered pretty great things. Vivitek needs to get things going in my eyes pretty quick because the window is closing. I would think these manufacturers would piggyback laser at lamp equivilant prices as that would be a great selling point despite the weaker performances.
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post #62 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 08:06 AM
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Another interesting aspect, if and when Sony drops a native 4K under 5000, is if they'll stick to their cinema 4K resolution (4096x2160) or go with the UHD standard (3840 × 2160).
Personally I'm hoping Sony drops the Cinema resolution, and goes with the UHD one, as it pixelmaps 1 to 4 with 1080p, and fits the UHD Blu-ray (and future broadcast) resolutions, without any need for stretching, pixelmap-missmatch, or "blacking out" of the extra ~200 pixels.
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post #63 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Paganmoon View Post
Another interesting aspect, if and when Sony drops a native 4K under 5000, is if they'll stick to their cinema 4K resolution (4096x2160) or go with the UHD standard (3840 × 2160).
Personally I'm hoping Sony drops the Cinema resolution, and goes with the UHD one, as it pixelmaps 1 to 4 with 1080p, and fits the UHD Blu-ray (and future broadcast) resolutions, without any need for stretching, pixelmap-missmatch, or "blacking out" of the extra ~200 pixels.
That and they really need to learn from their competitors including mistakes. Going under 18gbps HDMI has turned off countless people from devices in the past and they make the same mistake on their newest line. Its ridiculous. Movies are so far behind the gaming market its not even close anymore and Sony is excluding this sector (they should freaking know PS4 and all!) they are literally keeping other manufacturers in the fight.

This reason a lone is why Sony's new line isn't a blind buy for me and why I have to wait to see how it settles once it is determined just what you get your with 13.5gbps and HDR\60hz games. Unless something else comes a long at price that makes sense for me due to not being native 4k its entirely possible myself and others will consider it if anything a stopgap. I think the UHD65/60 is a prime example of people show they are ready for higher resolutions. If its going to cost, it better have the main basics at the very least. This probably ties in to the Vivitek being delayed. Maybe they feel it needs some basics, 24hz, 3D for example. They'd be right.
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post #64 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 08:37 AM
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That and they really need to learn from their competitors including mistakes. Going under 18gbps HDMI has turned off countless people from devices in the past and they make the same mistake on their newest line. Its ridiculous. Movies are so far behind the gaming market its not even close anymore and Sony is excluding this sector (they should freaking know PS4 and all!) they are literally keeping other manufacturers in the fight.

This reason a lone is why Sony's new line isn't a blind buy for me and why I have to wait to see how it settles once it is determined just what you get your with 13.5gbps and HDR\60hz games. Unless something else comes a long at price that makes sense for me due to not being native 4k its entirely possible myself and others will consider it if anything a stopgap. I think the UHD65/60 is a prime example of people show they are ready for higher resolutions. If its going to cost, it better have the main basics at the very least. This probably ties in to the Vivitek being delayed. Maybe they feel it needs some basics, 24hz, 3D for example. They'd be right.
Yeah, then again, we are talking about a company that released their new 4K revision of their console without a UHD Blu-ray player
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post #65 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 08:57 AM
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That will help. This has a lot more to be considered though depending on what you consider short comings. Low Contrast including ANSI for example won't be addressed. I can't see them reaching past 709 necessarily. What do you think? Seems to me these need to drop significantly in price. If Sony drops a native 4k @ $5,000 the walls will be closing in on this DLP chip by next year. I can't see JVC waiting any longer to drop their native 4k or who knows what Epson will do. Basically Optoma struck at an awesome time and delivered pretty great things. Vivitek needs to get things going in my eyes pretty quick because the window is closing. I would think these manufacturers would piggyback laser at lamp equivilant prices as that would be a great selling point despite the weaker performances.
Keep in mind though that the lens of the originally $9999 365es was not nearly good enough to resolve native 4k. This makes me question what quality lens Sony would put in a $4999 4k unit.

The UHD65 was on par resolution wise with the 365-665es, so just because sony has a native 4k chip doesn't mean it will look sharper.

And even at 4999, the dlp 4k is half the price. Whether its worth spending double for more native contrast is really a personal preference. Especially as if DLP does get 3D by end of year it will likely trump all the lcos projectors in that area.
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post #66 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 09:13 AM
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Keep in mind though that the lens of the originally $9999 365es was not nearly good enough to resolve native 4k. This makes me question what quality lens Sony would put in a $4999 4k unit.

The UHD65 was on par resolution wise with the 365-665es, so just because sony has a native 4k chip doesn't mean it will look sharper.

And even at 4999, the dlp 4k is half the price. Whether its worth spending double for more native contrast is really a personal preference. Especially as if DLP does get 3D by end of year it will likely trump all the lcos projectors in that area.
I've heard that but haven't seen any evidence and I have looked hard. You wouldn't happen to have a link by chance would you? The source on this seemed to be JVC camp claiming Sony resolves 3.5k where JVC camp resolves 3k Additionally, I could notice a significant difference in resolution/clarity sharpness between the UHD65 and 665 (different lens, price class and everything else but that was all that was comparable) in 4k from standard seating so I am not buying that as I believe that is dependent on the person.

To be fair, Sony is releasing basically a 365 (260) and it should land around 5k most are thinking (myself included.). Next week should be interesting. Anxious to see if we get any more DLP news and to find out more.

Did you see anything on the UHZ65?
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post #67 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 09:25 AM
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Yeah, then again, we are talking about a company that released their new 4K revision of their console without a UHD Blu-ray player
Lol dont get me started. They did that knowing DVD drove PS2 sales and PS3 saved blu ray.
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post #68 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 10:50 AM
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I've heard that but haven't seen any evidence and I have looked hard. You wouldn't happen to have a link by chance would you? The source on this seemed to be JVC camp claiming Sony resolves 3.5k where JVC camp resolves 3k Additionally, I could notice a significant difference in resolution/clarity sharpness between the UHD65 and 665 (different lens, price class and everything else but that was all that was comparable) in 4k from standard seating so I am not buying that as I believe that is dependent on the person.

To be fair, Sony is releasing basically a 365 (260) and it should land around 5k most are thinking (myself included.). Next week should be interesting. Anxious to see if we get any more DLP news and to find out more.

Did you see anything on the UHZ65?
Let me rephrase, the UHD65 is about on par in sharpness with the Sony 365 (see TV specialists A/B comparison). The BenQ HT8050 is about on par in sharpness with the Sony 665. The BenQ has better optics than the Optoma. The JVC is not really in league with the Sony 4K or DLP 4K sharpness wise, but is definitely better than Epson. If you count Sony as 3.5K I'd say JVC is more like 2.5K and Epson no sharper than 2K but without SDE.

https://www.tvspecialists.com/optoma...y-vpl-vw365es/
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post #69 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 11:14 AM
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Let me rephrase, the UHD65 is about on par in sharpness with the Sony 365 (see TV specialists A/B comparison). The BenQ HT8050 is about on par in sharpness with the Sony 665. The BenQ has better optics than the Optoma. The JVC is not really in league with the Sony 4K or DLP 4K sharpness wise, but is definitely better than Epson. If you count Sony as 3.5K I'd say JVC is more like 2.5K and Epson no sharper than 2K but without SDE.

https://www.tvspecialists.com/optoma...y-vpl-vw365es/
I think a person really has to factor in screen size here. My comparison was on 120inch screen. TV specialist was what size? I sit 8-9 feet from a 135.
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post #70 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 12:31 PM
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Keep in mind though that the lens of the originally $9999 365es was not nearly good enough to resolve native 4k.

where has it been verified that the 3xx lens is any different than the 6xx series lens?
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post #71 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 12:41 PM
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Came to the Vivitek thread to learn more about the Sony's. topic please
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post #72 of 357 Old 09-04-2017, 12:56 PM
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Came to the Vivitek thread to learn more about the Sony's. topic please
Do you have any new information or are you here going off topic by complaining others are going off topic in a non owners thread?
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post #73 of 357 Old 09-05-2017, 08:11 AM
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I did check the exhibitor list of the upcoming CEDIA 2017 but except for Texas Instruments, none of the 4K DLP manufacturers is present ("VIVOTEK" is a security equipment company).


In case somebody reading this goes there, please inquire at TI if they could perhaps tell which of the 4K DLP manufacturers will perform the hardware update to enable 24Hz reproduction (instead of just 60Hz) for their projectors.
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post #74 of 357 Old 09-05-2017, 09:35 AM
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I did check the exhibitor list of the upcoming CEDIA 2017 but except for Texas Instruments, none of the 4K DLP manufacturers is present ("VIVOTEK" is a security equipment company).


In case somebody reading this goes there, please inquire at TI if they could perhaps tell which of the 4K DLP manufacturers will perform the hardware update to enable 24Hz reproduction (instead of just 60Hz) for their projectors.
Did you happen to see if Vivitek was @ IFA when you were there?
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post #75 of 357 Old 09-06-2017, 03:51 AM
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Did you happen to see if Vivitek was @ IFA when you were there?

No they were not there. I had planned to pay Acer a short visit, but couldn't manage.

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post #76 of 357 Old 09-06-2017, 05:19 AM
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No they were not there. I had planned to pay Acer a short visit, but couldn't manage.
Thanks Frank714. Super bizarre. From name changes to delays to no shows. Not sure I remember seeing anything like this before.
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post #77 of 357 Old 09-06-2017, 06:05 AM
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Thanks Frank714. Super bizarre. From name changes to delays to no shows. Not sure I remember seeing anything like this before.
Remember Vivitek is not a traditional brand. It's basically Delta's house brand. Delta makes more money selling their DLP designs to other companies than they do from Vivitek hardware.
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post #78 of 357 Old 09-06-2017, 07:24 AM
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Remember Vivitek is not a traditional brand. It's basically Delta's house brand. Delta makes more money selling their DLP designs to other companies than they do from Vivitek hardware.
Who cares? Their Director of Global Product Marketing was showing the HK2288 in May for June launch. Now its not even on the website but carrying specs of what looks like the HK2299 (rebranded). This is terrible product launch full of delays and misinformation essentially leading to terrible consumer confidence at least thats how I see it and that is before taking into consideration the devices reviews that some how haven't surfaced for months.

Vivitek has a lot of commercial kit so maybe that took precedence. Vivitek is show casing their latest in Home Theater Sept 7th-9th so maybe we'll get some more hard details. Perhaps the item is so good they need CEDIA to show it off?
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post #79 of 357 Old 09-06-2017, 07:59 AM
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Vivitek is show casing their latest in Home Theater Sept 7th-9th so maybe we'll get some more hard details. Perhaps the item is so good they need CEDIA to show it off?
Really? I checked the CEDIA exhibitor list, but couldn't find Vivitek. "VIVOTEK" (listed there) is a supplier of security components to protect your house.


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This is terrible product launch full of delays and misinformation essentially leading to terrible consumer confidence at least thats how I see it and that is before taking into consideration the devices reviews that some how haven't surfaced for months.

The way it looks to me Vivitek had an opportunity to study the reactions to the competing models from Optoma and features many home theater customers would still like to have like 3D. So rather than rushing their product to the market, they stepped onto the brakes and got themselves time to think about what they actually want and can do with the HK2299.
Now, they know, too, what Sony and JVC deliver 4K wise for Fall and - if necessary - can better adjust their DLP 4K front projector for the needs of the market and exploit competitor weaknesses.


IMHO, I'd rather give them more time to see what they ultimately come up with. As it stands we don't another DLP 4K projector that competes with the Optoma UHD 65 but one that - hopefully - surpasses the UHD 65.

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Really? I checked the CEDIA exhibitor list, but couldn't find Vivitek. "VIVOTEK" (listed there) is a supplier of security components to protect your house.
I saw you mentioned that but did find this, https://www.vivitekusa.com/eventdeta...lpUjFsRnd4OD0=

CEDIA 2017

Event Date: Sep 07, 2017 - Sep 09, 2017 l Location: San Diego, CA

Vivitek will showcase latest CEDIA Home Theater at sound room 19
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post #81 of 357 Old 09-06-2017, 08:17 AM
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Cool, a great opportunity to ask them many, many questions.


My first one would probably whether they are using one of the latest Pixelworks Motion Engines for their "VividMotion" FI...
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post #82 of 357 Old 09-06-2017, 09:43 AM
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Cool, a great opportunity to ask them many, many questions.


My first one would probably whether they are using one of the latest Pixelworks Motion Engines for their "VividMotion" FI...
You are and I are in the exact same boat regarding motion with higher resolution images. This year has so many potential gotchas with newer techs. I just hope we hear these types of questions being asked early on as opposed to later.
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post #83 of 357 Old 09-08-2017, 04:22 AM
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Strange, today is Day Two of CEDIA with one more day to go tomorrow, I would have thought we'd heard something of Vivitek in sound room 19 by now.


I.e. I'm pretty certain the "faux-K" DLP dislikers would have told us by now how much the HK2299 "sucks".


Their silence is hard to overhear, maybe the HK2299 is so good that nobody dares to tell us about it.
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post #84 of 357 Old 09-08-2017, 05:33 AM
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No, they are too happy with the upgrade coming for their JVC CMD lol.
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post #85 of 357 Old 09-08-2017, 05:58 AM
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I will go to the Viv booth today. I am not sure what models I saw at other booths, but they didn't look to bad in comparison to how much I disliked them last year. The lack of on/off cr though is quite apparent.
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post #86 of 357 Old 09-08-2017, 07:15 AM
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Strange, today is Day Two of CEDIA with one more day to go tomorrow, I would have thought we'd heard something of Vivitek in sound room 19 by now.


I.e. I'm pretty certain the "faux-K" DLP dislikers would have told us by now how much the HK2299 "sucks".


Their silence is hard to overhear, maybe the HK2299 is so good that nobody dares to tell us about it.
We looked at them yesterday. They looked sharp, to me they had a digital look, had good motion, and I could see some RBE on all of them. No way to tell what the contrast looks like with the demo material. Not my cup of tea picture wise.

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post #87 of 357 Old 09-08-2017, 09:04 AM
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Another interesting aspect, if and when Sony drops a native 4K under 5000, is if they'll stick to their cinema 4K resolution (4096x2160) or go with the UHD standard (3840 × 2160).
Personally I'm hoping Sony drops the Cinema resolution, and goes with the UHD one, as it pixelmaps 1 to 4 with 1080p, and fits the UHD Blu-ray (and future broadcast) resolutions, without any need for stretching, pixelmap-missmatch, or "blacking out" of the extra ~200 pixels.
The resolution of the SXRD panels doesn't stop them from doing 1:1 with UHD. The pixels are square. When it's fed UHD (3840x2160) the pixels on the edges aren't used due to the SXRD panels being wider than 16:9. It's basically like the pillarboxing you get when watching 4:3 content on a 16:9 display but to a lesser degree.
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post #88 of 357 Old 09-08-2017, 11:07 AM
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The resolution of the SXRD panels doesn't stop them from doing 1:1 with UHD. The pixels are square. When it's fed UHD (3840x2160) the pixels on the edges aren't used due to the SXRD panels being wider than 16:9. It's basically like the pillarboxing you get when watching 4:3 content on a 16:9 display but to a lesser degree.
Yeah, was one of my guesses (blacking out the ~200 pixels). But it's still not optimal imo. How would you go about framing the picture on your 16:9 screen, would you set the edges at the 4k edge, or the UHD edge. Setting at the 4K edge would create a about 5% border on the sides of your picture which for a 117" screen would be about 5" of screen real-estate that's blacked out on the sides.
Setting it at the UHD edge, would mean you'd possible have picture information outside your screen's masked edges, shouldn't be a problem if you never feed it a 4K image, and stick to UHD, but I know with my current projector and screen, that if a large enough truck has driven past my apartment, the alignment of the screen and projector can go a bit off, setting some picture information outside of the masked part of the screen, and I see some shimmering at the masked bottom or top of my screen, even on Widescreen movies, where the top and bottom are blacked out, it's noticeable.

Not sure how much media there is out there to feed Cinema 4K even, maybe it's something for the ultra high end enthusiast of home cinema, but as these projectors start to come down into more affordable prices, I don't see the draw of a 4096x2160 image over the UHD standard.
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post #89 of 357 Old 09-08-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Paganmoon View Post
Yeah, was one of my guesses (blacking out the ~200 pixels). But it's still not optimal imo. How would you go about framing the picture on your 16:9 screen, would you set the edges at the 4k edge, or the UHD edge. Setting at the 4K edge would create a about 5% border on the sides of your picture which for a 117" screen would be about 5" of screen real-estate that's blacked out on the sides.
Setting it at the UHD edge, would mean you'd possible have picture information outside your screen's masked edges, shouldn't be a problem if you never feed it a 4K image, and stick to UHD, but I know with my current projector and screen, that if a large enough truck has driven past my apartment, the alignment of the screen and projector can go a bit off, setting some picture information outside of the masked part of the screen, and I see some shimmering at the masked bottom or top of my screen, even on Widescreen movies, where the top and bottom are blacked out, it's noticeable.

Not sure how much media there is out there to feed Cinema 4K even, maybe it's something for the ultra high end enthusiast of home cinema, but as these projectors start to come down into more affordable prices, I don't see the draw of a 4096x2160 image over the UHD standard.
That depends on the AR of your screen. If it's 16:9, I'd suggest ignoring the extra pixels on each side since they're not going to be used for much. Set up the projector so that UHD content fills the 16:9 screen. The projector doesn't have an option to force them edges black even for 4096 wide content?
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post #90 of 357 Old 09-11-2017, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrandon View Post
I saw you mentioned that but did find this, https://www.vivitekusa.com/eventdeta...lpUjFsRnd4OD0=

CEDIA 2017

Event Date: Sep 07, 2017 - Sep 09, 2017 l Location: San Diego, CA

Vivitek will showcase latest CEDIA Home Theater at sound room 19

I too made it to CEDIA 2017.
I walked away disappointed in laser projection. The color fidelity just wasn't there.
But, not so with this mini-beast. I have plenty of good things to say about the 2299,
starting with its price. The presenter kept quoting $2500 and mentioned 'back ordered' too.
More later.
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