Stick with JVC or play the field? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 19 Old 07-24-2017, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Stick with JVC or play the field?

I sold my RS4810 a few month ago in anticipation of my Atmos upgrade. I am a couple months out but am ready to snag a pj any day. JVC's I've owned have been RS1/20/40/4810............

I am not as much of a video snob as I used to be and was fairly happy with my 4810. That being said if I am upgrading I am looking for something that will be a noticeable improvement without breaking the bank. I'd like to stay around 4k or less.

Theater is dedicated with full light control. PJ sits about 20' back from 120" AT screen. This is used mainly for 2d viewing with little to no gaming.

I am waffling between a used RS500/600 or a B stock LS10000. Surprising enough I am really favoring the LS. I'd really love some input on those that have seen both in action. I've sifted through a thousand threads and haven't found anything definitive.

The purpose of listening shouldn't be to respond as much as it should be to understand.
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post #2 of 19 Old 07-24-2017, 01:43 PM
 
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@DavidHir has a lot of experience with all of the projectors mentioned and I'm sure he can steer you in the right direction.
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post #3 of 19 Old 07-24-2017, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I'll reach out to him.

The purpose of listening shouldn't be to respond as much as it should be to understand.
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post #4 of 19 Old 07-24-2017, 02:48 PM
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Just replied to your PM.
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post #5 of 19 Old 07-25-2017, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
I sold my RS4810 a few month ago in anticipation of my Atmos upgrade. I am a couple months out but am ready to snag a pj any day. JVC's I've owned have been RS1/20/40/4810............

I am not as much of a video snob as I used to be and was fairly happy with my 4810. That being said if I am upgrading I am looking for something that will be a noticeable improvement without breaking the bank. I'd like to stay around 4k or less.

Theater is dedicated with full light control. PJ sits about 20' back from 120" AT screen. This is used mainly for 2d viewing with little to no gaming.

I am waffling between a used RS500/600 or a B stock LS10000. Surprising enough I am really favoring the LS. I'd really love some input on those that have seen both in action. I've sifted through a thousand threads and haven't found anything definitive.
Let posters know, this is more for sports than movies.
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post #6 of 19 Old 07-25-2017, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Let posters know, this is more for sports than movies.
???

Not sure where that came from but it's solely for movies.

The purpose of listening shouldn't be to respond as much as it should be to understand.
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post #7 of 19 Old 07-25-2017, 12:04 PM
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???

Not sure where that came from but it's solely for movies.
Sorry for the confusion. Had several people talk to me about LS10000's yesterday.
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post #8 of 19 Old 07-25-2017, 10:14 PM
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Why not LS10500 after seeing it at CEDIA last year i thought it looked great & the unit was calibrated by Kevin Miller i think.
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post #9 of 19 Old 07-31-2017, 08:48 PM
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@DavidHir has a lot of experience with all of the projectors mentioned and I'm sure he can steer you in the right direction.
I can see what you did there

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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #10 of 19 Old 08-01-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
I am a couple months out but am ready to snag a pj any day.
Would you be using it right away, or after you finish your ATMOS stuff?

If you aren't going to be using it a bunch right away it seems like you might as well wait for IFA and CEDIA at this point. Some people sell their used projectors after those shows.

--Darin
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post #11 of 19 Old 08-01-2017, 04:06 PM
 
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I can see what you did there
I must have missed it. What did I do other then set him up with the proper person to talk to.

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post #12 of 19 Old 08-01-2017, 04:33 PM
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I must have missed it. What did I do other then set him up with the proper person to talk to.
I wouldn't consider someone who had the bad luck he had with faulty LS10000s as 'the proper person', and you know that.

Someone with a more normal experience would have been a better choice IMHO. I've got a good LS10000 and have had experience with all the JVCs since the HD1, plus direct split screen comparisons with the more recent models with 4k Sony's and JVCs, so I would have thought I would have been able to give a more rounded view, so why didn't you recommend me?

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #13 of 19 Old 08-01-2017, 04:57 PM
 
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I wouldn't consider someone who had the bad luck he had with faulty LS10000s as 'the proper person', and you know that.

Someone with a more normal experience would have been a better choice IMHO. I've got a good LS10000 and have had experience with all the JVCs since the HD1, plus direct split screen comparisons with the more recent models with 4k Sony's and JVCs, so I would have thought I would have been able to give a more rounded view, so why didn't you recommend me?
Right, he just happened to receive 4 bad units in a row that all showed the same issue. You're right, it's not that the LS series projectors have a few inherent flaws or are more prone to have certain issues compared to other projectors. I forgot, the LS series projectors are perfect.

What I wouldn't do is recommend for him to talk to someone who is so enamored with the purchase they've made that they've cooked up some falsehood about the product they own where they won't admit to problems that most units will have. This kind of attitude does more harm than good because it gives the wrong impression to someone who's looking into buying one of these projectors. Let's look at the facts. There's only a handful of people on this forum who've owned, demo'ed or reviewed these LS series projectors. You don't find it a bit odd that every single person who's went and looked closely at their LS series Epson had an issue with poor uniformity? Sorry, but the odds are not in your favor. David did not get "unlucky" and receive 4 lemon units in a row. Zombie, me and another member have also said the issue with poor uniformity is there. I've seen it with my own eyes. I would also like to remind you that Ekki of cine4home, who receives and calibrates many many of these projectors, confirms the issue is there along with the inherent optical softening issue when eshift is engaged. Ekki also confirms that large convergence issues are common with these models too. You're more likely to receive an Epson LS series projector with poor uniformity, poor convergence and an issue with optical softening with eshift engaged than you are with a JVC. The quality control with these issues just doesn't seem to be there on these Epsons. If you don't believe me, feel free to read cine4home's write ups on these units. Considering how many units Ekki and and his team receive, calibrate and sell, I wouldn't hesitate for a second in believing him about such things.
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post #14 of 19 Old 08-01-2017, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I wouldn't consider someone who had the bad luck he had with faulty LS10000s as 'the proper person', and you know that.

Someone with a more normal experience would have been a better choice IMHO. I've got a good LS10000 and have had experience with all the JVCs since the HD1, plus direct split screen comparisons with the more recent models with 4k Sony's and JVCs, so I would have thought I would have been able to give a more rounded view, so why didn't you recommend me?
Oh thanks for the complement, Gary.

Let's see I had four units ALL with uniformity issues - four other people posted uniformity images showing the issue.

All bad luck? These are normal experiences if the person is sensitive to seeing such issues (many are not).

I would like to see a pic of your unit.
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post #15 of 19 Old 08-01-2017, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Right, he just happened to receive 4 bad units in a row that all showed the same issue.You're right, it's not that the LS series projectors have a few inherent flaws or are more prone to have certain issues compared to other projectors. I forgot, the LS series projectors are perfect.
There isn't enough data in yet to say one way or another that there is a uniformity 'problem' with the LS range. If it does exist, it's certainly not visible to most owners, and that's an important consideration when referring to a models pros and cons. What is visible and distracting when watching content?

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
What I wouldn't do is recommend for him to talk to someone who is so enamored with the purchase they've made that it they've created some falsehood about the product they own where they won't admit to problems that most units will have.
So, because I have a good unit, you feel I am not qualified to offer an opinion. I also wouldn't say I was 'enamoured' either. That's just your spin on someone who has a good unit and can't agree with you that they are all bad.

I'm not in the habit of lying, if that is what you are suggesting, and like I told you before, I can't lie about there being a problem just because you want me to - I need more evidence to start stating something as a fact. I did conceded there may be a problem in the other thread but that isn't good enough for you. So now not only have you proven to be a bully, you're also accusing me of lying because I have a good unit and I won't agree to say what you want me to say. You're a real piece of work.

I looked at mine with a 40IRE and 100IRE field after watching a movie and is doesn't have a problem. I know two dealers who have supplied, installed and calibrated LSs and also have no problems to report. I also had PMs here on the back of the other thread saying the same thing. Those people just don't want to get involved with the JVC GS so prefer to stay out of it. That also speaks volumes.

It is true that some models appear to have a uniformity problem, but we can't say that its true of all models since we haven't seen them all. Would you agree that is a fact?

Recommending the guy with some faulty units over others with good units seems a tad biased, when the OP would probably want comparisons between good units, not bad LSs vs good JVCs. That seems a biased approach wouldn't you agree?

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Let's look at the facts. There's only a handful of people on this forum who've owned, demo'ed or reviewed these LS series projectors. You don't find it a bit odd that every single person who's went and looked at their LS series Epson had the issue?
I wouldn't class those as 'facts' - not 'every single person' who reviewed them found the issue. I didn't nor have the other people I know or those that PMd me before. Maybe we're just lucky, but like I say, there doesn't seem to be enough evidence of it in any owners thread to suggest it is a problem, not yet at least. You seem to eager to jump to that conclusion for it to not seem to be a bias, hence why recommending David as the only source.

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Sorry, but the odds are not in your favor. David did not get "unlucky" and receive 4 lemon units in a row. Zombie, me and another member have also said the issue with poor uniformity is there. I would also like to remind you that Ekki of cine4home confirms the issue is there along with the inherent optical softening when eshift is engaged.
Well, if we're talking about 'unlucky', maybe you should point him to the JVC thread where people are complaining about bright corners, image noise and CMD banding issues amongst other things - the odds are certainly not in your favour there for getting a good JVC are they?. If you want to compare the worst examples of each model then the JVC doesn't come out exactly smelling of roses.

If there is a uniformity issue with the LS it certainly isn't visible enough for most people to notice or report, whereas bright corners , image noise and banding certainly have been. Stones and glass houses come to mind

You say Cine4home mentioned the problem, but I don't remember seeing it here:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...10000_test.htm

They seem to give it quite a good review in fact: Epson LS10000 a device with virtually no weaknesses

Here is what they say about the LS1000 here on avs:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post27692969

Color Uniformity was excellent, better than most JVC or Sony. I could see no banding, no noise. The R-LCD Driver is not fully digital but still analog, which I personally consider as a plus.

I also found this:

http://www.projektor-ag.de/epson-eh-...-edition-test/

Results :
In terms of color uniformity, the LS10000 is at its best: none of our subjects showed serious color clouds, the discolorations in the marginal area were always below 250K deviation, which is why we draw as a limit for the Cine4Home Edition in all picture parts.


They don't seem to think there is a problem, and certainly not in 'all units' as you suggest and want me to lie about. On the back of this evidence, I think you have to agree, it's certainly not 'all units' and you should retract your unfactual statement both here and in the other thread don't you?

An apology for suggesting I'm a liar would be nice too if that's OK.

I know there is some softening with eshift on the LS compared to the JVC which is better, but considering that when doing split screen comparisons between 4k Sony and an eshifted JVC or LS the difference is very small and only really noticeable during more static scenes. When comparing the LS to a JVC eshifted the difference is going to be smaller still. When fed a 4k source both look pretty good and comparable to the 4K Sony.

Gary.

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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #16 of 19 Old 08-01-2017, 07:02 PM
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Oh thanks for the complement, Gary.

Let's see I had four units ALL with uniformity issues - four other people posted uniformity images showing the issue.

All bad luck? These are normal experiences if the person is sensitive to seeing such issues (many are not).

I would like to see a pic of your unit.
Don't take it personally - it wasn't meant as such and I think most will agree that your experience wasn't normal, I also think most will agree that having someone of your bad experience as the sole source of experience is certainly going to have a biased opinion, it's only natural. It's not a personal attack it's just common sense, and I'm disappointed that you have taken this stance with me.

Sorry for the quality of the pic, it was taken with my phone, but like I say, I have no issues and neither do any of the other LS10000 and LS10500 owners I know.

Some people are over sensitive and prone to seeing green where there isn't any it would seem too.
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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #17 of 19 Old 08-01-2017, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Don't take it personally - it wasn't meant as such and I think most will agree that your experience wasn't normal, I also think most will agree that having someone of your bad experience as the sole source of experience is certainly going to have a biased opinion, it's only natural. It's not a personal attack it's just common sense, and I'm disappointed that you have taken this stance with me.

Sorry for the quality of the pic, it was taken with my phone, but like I say, I have no issues and neither do any of the other LS10000 and LS10500 owners I know.

Some people are over sensitive and prone to seeing green where there isn't any it would seem too.
So people seeing green where it doesn't exist are no different than people seeing red uniformity issues even when showing proof pics of it? Not sure how you equate two different things like that. In your case, that being a very low quality pic with artifacts makes any issue like this impossible to see. Another forum member posted a pic of low quality and then showed a higher quality pic where the red issue was clearly seen. But I know of 8 models with this issue and I doubt a 9th will change much. However, with all being said, I agree it's only an issue if it's an issue to you in content. I feel that way about any artifact. I also think a lot of people won't notice it in content. It's just like a lot of people don't see rainbows on DLPs, or convergence problems, or if a unit has bright corners (which two of my LS units had - so this is not just a JVC thing), etc. In my case, I started seeing the issue during movies and posted several screen grabs that clearly show it (from the remastered BD 'Heat') as I was not even thinking about the grey uniformity until it hit me. Then I started see it more and more while it became evident. Once you see an artifact, it's hard to "un-see" it. By the way, on my last replacement I sent pics into a higher level person at Epson support (who had my second unit handpicked which still had the issue) who was going to run them by the manager who actually launched the projector to get his opinion as they were going to try and work with me on yet another replacement. Guess what happened? I never got the response back - instead I was offered the buy-back. I think that non-response pretty much acknowledges the uniformity as the norm.
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post #18 of 19 Old 08-02-2017, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I would also like to remind you that Ekki of cine4home, who receives and calibrates many many of these projectors, confirms the issue is there along with the inherent optical softening issue when eshift is engaged. Ekki also confirms that large convergence issues are common with these models too. You're more likely to receive an Epson LS series projector with poor uniformity, poor convergence and an issue with optical softening with eshift engaged than you are with a JVC. The quality control with these issues just doesn't seem to be there on these Epsons. If you don't believe me, feel free to read cine4home's write ups on these units. Considering how many units Ekki and and his team receive, calibrate and sell, I wouldn't hesitate for a second in believing him about such things.
Cine4Home. Epson EH-LS10000

Optical sharpness
Forty per cent of the test candidates did not have the Cine4Home Edition criteria, which were not arbitrarily chosen by us, but were based on the better devices and the quality of the competition in this price class. Here, Epson should quickly improve quality standards in manufacturing.
At least three of the LS10000s we saw showed rough convergence deviations or optical blurs. For a device, the convergence deviations were so large that they could no longer be corrected with the "panel adjustment" of the image menu.In a fourth device the sharpness was adjusted in the half-hour clock so that a continuous post-correction was necessary. This is also not reasonable in this price class.
Regardless of the high series, the "4K-Enhanceent" basically provokes a loss of edge sharpness of the native FullHD resolution.


Pixel errors
In this category, we can not give an absolute all-clear. Although the vast majority of the test copies were error-free, a device showed more than one pixel error
Therefore, we advise you to check the exact Pixel-Check to prevent bad surprises at home.

Color Uniformity
In terms of color uniformity, the LS10000 is at its best: none of our subjects showed serious color clouds, the discolorations in the marginal area were always below 250K deviation,

Brightness after calibration
About 30% of the light lost by the calibration on the D65 Videonorm, there remain about 950 lumens
The lower limit, according to the normal series spread, is 900 lumens
"DCI" mode 750 lumens, lower limit 700 lumens.

Contrast after calibration
Depending on the zoom and mode, the native contrast is an average of 15,000:1 to 25,000:1.
This native contrast is quintupled up to 75,000:1 to 100,000:1 by a dynamic LED control.
The lower limit for the Cine4Home edition is drawn according to the standard spread at 13,000:1 natively and 65,000:1 dynamically .

Color Space
The factory settings of all LS10000 tested by us already lead to a very good color neutrality, which can be optimally optimized to the Kinonorm by CMS (see below). This is exemplary and meets the high price class.

http://www.projektor-ag.de/epson-eh-...-edition-test/

Cine4Home. JVC X-500

Optical sharpness
devices with strong streaking have not yet come to us.

Pixel errors
JVC brochure "Be aware that due to the complexity of the manufacturing process, the presence of a few defective pixels in the D-ILA chips used is normal (under 0.01% are constantly on or off"
In other words: JVC officially accepts no liability, up to a number of 200 Pixel errors (no matter which color or whether always luminous or always black), but declares this upper limit as technically "normal".
Many X500 have one or two blue glowing pixel errors in black, some light, others dark.

Color Uniformity
Most of the X500 / X700 are within the tolerable range of <290K deviation, outliers who exceed these limits (and thus also become visible in films) are very rare in JVC, but devices with almost perfect homogeneous color temperature are also rare.

Brightness & Contrast after calibration
DLA-X500
Zoom max Lamp high 1,030 Lumen, lamp low 710 Lumen. Iris full open 26,000:1
Zoom max Lamp high 460 Lumen, lamp low 300 Lumen. Iris smallest 45,000:1
Zoom min Lamp high 880 Lumen, lamp low 610 Lumen. Iris full open 30,000:1
Zoom min Lamp high 360 Lumen, lamp low 260 Lumen. Iris smallest 49,000:1
The adaptive aperture increases the dynamics gain to an average of 350,000:1
An X500 must achieve at least 950 lumens in the calibrated brightness (large zoom) and combine these with a contrast of 25:000. On the basis of these values one can see that the average fluctuation in average is also about 10% in this generation
The ANSI (chessboard) contrast has not changed in the new generation, it is in the standard cut at 250: 1 (all models).

Color space
This Color Management also works well and most of our devices have been fully calibrated to the HD / Rec709 video format. The emphasis is on "most", because unfortunately there were also various outliers in this regard:
Problems of some X500: Their native green point is too yellowish and therefore can not be balanced despite color management. A perfectly standard calibration is not possible with the affected devices.


HDMI handshake problems
All the first-line devices that were shipped showed problems with HDMI connections, they did not accept resolution changes. JVC has remedied by a firmware update, which should be imported exclusively by the authorized specialist trade.

http://cine4home.de/cine4home-editio...500-x700-x900/
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post #19 of 19 Old 08-02-2017, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
So people seeing green where it doesn't exist are no different than people seeing red uniformity issues even when showing proof pics of it? Not sure how you equate two different things like that. In your case, that being a very low quality pic with artifacts makes any issue like this impossible to see. Another forum member posted a pic of low quality and then showed a higher quality pic where the red issue was clearly seen. But I know of 8 models with this issue and I doubt a 9th will change much. However, with all being said, I agree it's only an issue if it's an issue to you in content. I feel that way about any artifact. I also think a lot of people won't notice it in content. It's just like a lot of people don't see rainbows on DLPs, or convergence problems, or if a unit has bright corners (which two of my LS units had - so this is not just a JVC thing), etc. In my case, I started seeing the issue during movies and posted several screen grabs that clearly show it (from the remastered BD 'Heat') as I was not even thinking about the grey uniformity until it hit me. Then I started see it more and more while it became evident. Once you see an artifact, it's hard to "un-see" it. By the way, on my last replacement I sent pics into a higher level person at Epson support (who had my second unit handpicked which still had the issue) who was going to run them by the manager who actually launched the projector to get his opinion as they were going to try and work with me on yet another replacement. Guess what happened? I never got the response back - instead I was offered the buy-back. I think that non-response pretty much acknowledges the uniformity as the norm.
Yes, it's always disturbing when people see things, or can hear voices.

I found it interesting that seeing something that wasn't there was also seen by two other people, like a Jedi mind trick. Those not affected by the JMT could see a little blue and there was a small patch of magenta when using the colour picker IIRC. I was looking for a green to red colour uniformity but couldn't see it because it wasn't there as described.

If you use a colour picker across my image you will see the RGBs are pretty much balanced, and despite the low quality it is indicative of my unit, which is what I have been saying all along but wasn't believed. Now, despite having provided an image, it's being claimed it's not a good unit because the image is low quality. It was recently calibrated and no issues were noted then either.

Thanks to Dovercat for posting that information. Seems like I'm one of the 60% of units that doesn't have a problem. Lucky me

As I've always said, there are no perfect projectors, you just have to pick your poison, and for me, the JVCs have too many well documented issues that are visible and pull me out of a movie (as they did during the demos I had unfortunately), which is a shame because otherwise I do like the image they produce, and until the LS came along I was pretty sure I was going to be buying one, though probably second hand until 4K and HDR etc had settled down. But even then, the lamp costs and ballast board issue did give me some reticence there.

The image noise and generally less solid, less clean image of the JVC made me prefer the Epson which has no real issues, other than it could do with a little more CR, but then, we all want that with every projector we get, even the JVCs. When the next higher CR JVC is produced, people will say what they always say - the last pj had grey blacks...

I hope the OP manages to get a demo of each and can then decide which one he prefers overall, rather than base it on other peoples eyes and preferences, and buy sight unseen, especially when one of them has been pretty unlucky. I know some JVC owners that were unlucky with bright corners and still got bad units after a swap, but I wouldn't choose a disgruntled customer as the sole source to give a balanced view - that would be underhanded to do that because it would obviously bias the opinion, which I think was the intent here unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is offline  
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