JVC DLA-X5900/X7900/X9900 : JVC will introduce 3 new DLA models at IFA BERLIN 2017 - Page 43 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 2872Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1261 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 10:48 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,321
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2574 Post(s)
Liked: 2255
Epson has always been on the bargain price of things so I could see them waiting a while.

Craig, did Epson say much about the LS? Some have speculated the sales are poor on those and wonder what their plans are for the long term with them.
DavidHir is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1262 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 10:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,143
Mentioned: 333 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5462 Post(s)
Liked: 5685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I discussed this with JVC yesterday. Maybe we will see a laser eshift projector in a couple of years.
Thanks. Here is my take on this. I think JVC should really consider these two options very carefully.

1) Clever JVC: they provide a f/w update for all their clients owning a 2015+ model solving EVERYTHING that can be solved by f/w (ST2084 curve, HDR bright/HDR color, DI enabled in HDR, etc). All this can ALREADY be done on these models with third party software/not so expensive bit of hardware. No one in their right mind is going to update just for these "features", which are simply fixes for stuff that was broken or not enabled for no good reasons. They won't lose any customers doing this. Those who want to upgrade because they want the low lag in game mode, or because they like the new eshift-5, will still do. But what they will achieve doing this is REWARD their EXISTING customers. Many of these not only buy PJs, they also advise their friends to do so. Then next year, they release a NEW range with laser. Almost everyone will upgrade to these, because that will be a real upgrade, especially if the resale value of their existing model has not plummeted, thanks to the f/w fix. And they won't be afraid to do so with a first gen chassis because they will think that JVC will support their products, and will fix what needs to be fixed. Otherwise some will wait to see what the bugs are, and won't buy until the bugs that matter are fixed.

2) Dumb JVC: they don't provide the f/w mentioned above for existing models, they keep alienating their customers who won't upgrade anyway as they can see there is no significant upgrade. They don't release a PROPER upgrade next year, which is either laser or native 4K, and don't stop the exodus that is going to start this year with many flocking to the appeal of "native 4K" vs "better on/off". This will especially be the case if the new lens on the new Sony model resolves closer to 4K on the screen. I can see where that would end (and I don't hope it will).

My take is that what's new on the Sony side of the street isn't new technology (except possibly with the new lens) but a dramatic cut in prices (MSRP in EU and street price in the US, let's forget about the SURE price travesty). This is what's going to hurt JVC hard this year, and I hope they will be ready for laser under 10K next year (I doubt 4K under 10K with enough on/off will happen).

So if you're talking to JVC and if they listen, I would tell them to show good will, treat their existing customer with respect, invest a bit of time in getting these f/w out, and put this laser model on the fast track. If they release another eshift model with bulb without a laser at least as the flagship, I think they'll regret it. There are not enough people understanding the difference between the two technologies to resist the appeal of "native 4K" with just e-shift. A couple of years will be too late. It's next year or they'll be in real trouble, especially if Sony keeps undercutting them on price with "native 4K".

Just to give an example of what I call good product support: I've bought an X7200WA 18 months ago (once it had the HDMI 2.0a fitted in factory, some bought the X7200W a few months earlier because it had an upgrade path to HDMI 2.0a). In 18 months dozens of minor bugs have been fixed, they provided a layout compatible with all three immersive audio formats, they fixed a bug that prevented playing a track with any upmixer, and a few months before its end of (shelf) life next Spring, three years later, they are going to offer a f/w enabling Dolby Vision pass through. I don't care about this personally because I plan to sell it immediately afterwards, but it will really help its resale value. Which means it makes it easier for me to sell it and buy a new model. This is clever customer support. I will buy the replacement without any hesitation (provided it has HDMI 2.1 out of the box or a full hardware upgrade path to it). I know, when I buy it, that anything that doesn't work on it will be fixed (if technically possible) up until the very end of life of the unit. That gives me three years of peace, knowing I'll be able to get the best technology. Okay, they only do this for so long on the flagship, but to me it's worth the price difference with the lower model, which will only be supported for a year. D&M don't have the same customer support as Lumagen or HD Fury, who are very close to their users, keep implementing new features based on user feedback, fix things even years after the end of life of a product. They can do that because they are smaller. But as a main CE manufacturer, D&M got this right.

JVC would be inspired to change the way they treat their customers, especially regarding the midrange and flagship models. They should support these much better, even if that means hiring a couple more people in their projector software team (I know it's a very small team, they are probably stretched, I'm certainly not blaming them but that shouldn't be the problem of the customer).

These products are expensive toys. They are not throw away gadgets (at least not to me). I think expecting support over the life of the warranty cover (which happens to be the amount of time between upgrades for me anyway) is not unreasonable. So I would expect 3 years of proper support, and I'd like to see what can be fixed with a f/w update to be fixed over that period of time. It's a win-win if JVC sees this as an investment in customer satisfaction/loyalty, rather than simply as an expense.

I strongly believe that JVC would sell MORE, not LESS if they did this, but I have little hope to see this happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Agreed. They really need to move to online updates via Ethernet or USB.

When talking with their lead engineer from here in the US, he stated that this update required patching into somewhere else on the projector (not the RS-232 on the back) for the update, which is why it was done in house. He said that depending on what is being updated on a projector, the procedure is different. He also confirmed again that last year's models did require a new motherboard compared to the models before.
Yes, that already happened a while ago (I forgot for which part of the f/w and on which models, but I think it was HDMI related). In the UK, dealers were allowed to do the upgrade because they had the special kit used to update that specific chip. In the U.S. it was a return to base. Looks like the same issue.
RonF, KramerTC, Toe and 4 others like this.

Last edited by Manni01; 09-11-2017 at 06:06 AM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #1263 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:11 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 15,354
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4342 Post(s)
Liked: 3080
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I discussed this with JVC yesterday. Maybe we will see a laser eshift projector in a couple of years.
Wait, wait, wait...

They plan to still be making 1080p e-shift projectors in a couple of years?
Stereodude is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1264 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:11 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
millerwill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 12,087
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 614 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I discussed this with JVC yesterday. Maybe we will see a laser eshift projector in a couple of years.
Would you expect a laser eshift JVC to be brighter than a lamp eshift (i.e., the RS640), or about the same (2000 lumens max)? (The laser Sony885 is spec'd as 2000 max.)
millerwill is offline  
post #1265 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
blee0120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,955
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 897 Post(s)
Liked: 608
+1 Manni, I said it by before that JVC need to take care of its customers. Even though I do not need them to do it for me since I have everything except eshift 5, but they need to show support for their customers who spent thousands of dollars to buy their product. At least the CMD fix is coming, which is a hassle sending it in though.
blee0120 is online now  
post #1266 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:27 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 16,357
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6988 Post(s)
Liked: 8270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Wait, wait, wait...

They plan to still be making 1080p e-shift projectors in a couple of years?
I have no idea - they don't discuss plans for the future with me or anyone else. But it's possible, and Epson too indicated eshift for the foreseeable future. After all, BenQ, Optoma, Vivitek all have " 4K " chips that seem to work well enough for lots of folks, that aren't native 4K.

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
Craig Peer is offline  
post #1267 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:28 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 16,357
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6988 Post(s)
Liked: 8270
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Epson has always been on the bargain price of things so I could see them waiting a while.

Craig, did Epson say much about the LS? Some have speculated the sales are poor on those and wonder what their plans are for the long term with them.
Not really - they did say no native 4K until chip prices come down. That's all they said.

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
Craig Peer is offline  
post #1268 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:28 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Thanks for the feedback. Can you please elaborate on the "new advanced replacement program"? Also how are they planning to fix CMD since it required a new chip apparently?

Thanks
You send the projector in and JVC corrects the CMD problem.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1269 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:31 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Both of these have been addressed already, I don't know if you missed it because it's in the other thread (these threads really need to be merged)....



It's like Epson now, you have the option of JVC shipping you a replacement instead of sending your machine in for repair.

I don't know what it is exactly, some have said it's not a new chip, but it's a warranty repair, you send your machine in and it gets whatever is needed to fix CMD.

Can I throw out a conspiracy theory (Craig/Mike/Kris)....

I don't suppose the "repair" for CMD on the x20 line is a new motherboard (with CMD chip) from the x40 line is it? And if so, would that mean a repaired x20 machine would then have the x40 software (HDR modes, DI, etc)?
No it is not. All of the current to be shipped RS420/520/620 projectors have been corrected for CMD and motherboards were not replaced.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1270 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mbw23air's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: KY
Posts: 3,067
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Just a thought, have you confirmed with certainty you do not have gamma droop on the JVC? They all do it and it meeds to be corrected.
That could be a little part of it as I've put 1,000 hours on lamp since ChadB calibrated it but the bright scenes have hardly ever had that "pop" effect that I see on DLP. I need to get my Eye One Display 3 recalibrated and then check it out to see if I need to touch up gamma.

Thanks for suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I'm loving it. I forgot how good it can be to have a lampless projector. It's my third DPI projector and they throw a great picture. Crazy how you can get these high end DPI projectors on eBay for $1000.
You got lucky finding that one. I look on there regularly and never come across one anywhere near that price. I see there is one in the classifieds here but it's $4k and has a lens I can't use and the lens I need is $2k. You be sure and let me know if you ever want to sell that one or see another one for sale for around same price.

Thanks guys,
Mike

JVC RS600(Fantastically calibrated by ChadB), Stewart Cima Neve 2.35 115" diagonal screen, Darbee Darblet, Denon AVR-X7200WA(7.6.4), M&K Speakers, 6 ported 18" subs powered by 3 inuke 6000dsps, 2 Behringer B1200D Mid Bass Modules, Buttkicker transducer, Oppo BDP-93 blu-ray player
mbw23air is offline  
post #1271 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:33 AM
Toe
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 16,736
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2721 Post(s)
Liked: 3575
Put me in the eshift+laser camp. I'd personally much rather have laser before native 4k. I was hoping to see a laser eshift model this year, but sounds like we are still 1-2 years away which is fine as the RS540 will be great for me until then.

Better product support as Manni suggests above would be fantastic as well. As mentioned, these aren't cheap throw away toys, or at least they shouldnt be.
Toe is online now  
post #1272 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:35 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
It's not unreasonable to have a firmware update that might brick the unit if done in the field. Especially considering their procedure for updates is a bit long in the tooth.
This update is performed internally. So, much greater risk if done wrong and you would have to take the projector apart to even do the work, so no way this can be done by an end user.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1273 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
Naylorman32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 873
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 219
how long does it usually take to send in a projector to JVC and get it back?
Naylorman32 is offline  
post #1274 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:38 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Not to start an argument about the number of people that use CMD but if they incur enough expense because of this it might finally provide enough incentive to improve their capabilities in this area.
I am sure a different update procedure is in the works and I expect it to be in the next model that requires a new housing design. just like they have for the RS4500. Updates for the 4500 are done by USB, same as the Sony projectors.
Manni01 likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1275 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:47 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks. Here is my take on this. I think JVC should really consider these two options very carefully.

1) Clever JVC: they provide a f/w update for all their clients owning a 2015+ model solving EVERYTHING that can be solved by f/w (ST2084 curve, HDR bright/HDR color, DI enabled in HDR, etc). All this can ALREADY be done on these models with third party software/not so expensive bit of hardware. No one in their right mind is going to upgrade just for these "features", which are simply fixes for stuff that was broken or not enabled for no good reasons. They won't lose any customers doing this. Those who want to upgrade because they want the low lag in game mode or care about the CMD fix, or because they like the new e-shift-5, will still do. But what they will achieve doing this is REWARD their EXISTING customers. Many of these not only buy PJs, they also advise their friends to do so. Then next year, they release a NEW range with laser. Almost everyone will upgrade to these, because that will be a real upgrade, especially if the resale value of their existing model has not plummeted, thanks to the f/w fix. And they won't be afraid to do so with a first gen chassis because they will think that JVC will support their products, and will fix what needs to be fixed. Otherwise some will wait to see what the bugs are, and won't buy until the bugs that matter are fixed.

2) Dumb JVC: they don't provide the f/w mentioned above for existing models, they keep alienating their customers who won't upgrade anyway as they can see there is no significant upgrade (unless they are gamers or care about CMD). They don't release a PROPER upgrade next year, which is either laser or native 4K, and don't stop the exodus that is going to start this year with many flocking to the appeal of "native 4K" vs "better on/off". This will especially be the case if the new lens on the new Sony model resolve closer to 4K on the screen. I can see where that would end (and I don't hope it will).

My take is that what's new on the Sony side of the street isn't new technology but a dramatic cut in prices (MSRP in EU and street price in the US, let's forget about the SURE price travesty). This is what's going to hurt JVC hard this year, and I hope they will be ready for laser under 10K next year (I doubt 4K under 10K with enough on/off will happen next year, or even in 2 years).

So if you're talking to JVC and if they listen, I would tell them to show good will, treat their existing customer with respect, invest a bit of time in getting these f/w out, and put this laser model on the fast track. If they release another eshift model with bulb without a laser at least as the flagship, I think they'll regret it. There are not enough people understanding the difference between the two technologies to resist the appeal of "native 4K" with just e-shift. A couple of years will be too late. It's next year or they'll be in real trouble, especially if Sony keeps undercutting them on price with "native 4K".

Just to give an example of what I call good product support: I've bought an X7200WA 18 months ago (once it had the HDMI 2.0a fitted in factory, some bought the X7200W a few months earlier because it had an upgrade path to HDMI 2.0a). In 18 months dozens of minor bugs have been fixed, they provided DTS:X support, they provided a layout compatible with all three immersive audio formats, they fixed a bug that prevented playing a track with any upmixer, and a few months before its end of (shelf) life next Spring, three years later, they are going to offer a f/w enabling Dolby Vision pass through. I don't care about DV support personally because I plan to sell my X7200WA immediately afterward, but it will really help its resale value. Which means it makes it easier for me to sell it and buy a new model. This is clever customer support. I will buy the replacement without any hesitation (provided it has HDMI 2.1 out of the box or a full hardware upgrade path to it). I know, when I buy it, that anything that does work on it will be fixed (if technically possible) up until the very end of life of the unit. That gives me three years of peace, knowing I'll be able to get the best technology. Okay, they only do this for so long on the flagship, but to me it's worth the price difference with the lower model, which will only be supported for a year. D&M don't have the same customer support as Lumagen or HD Fury, who are very close to their users, keep implementing new features based on user feedback, fix things even years after the end of life of a product. They can do that because they are smaller. But as a main CE manufacturer, D&M got this right. I didn't feel stupid over the 3 years for having bought the flagship. I felt like it was kept up to date, as much as technically possible, and I didn't feel like more recent and cheaper models had superseded it.

JVC would be inspired to change the way they treat their customers, especially regarding the midrange and flagship models. They should support these much better, even if that means hiring a couple more people in their projector software team (I know it's a very small team, they are probably stretched, I'm certainly not blaming them but that shouldn't be the problem of the customer).

These products are expensive toys. They are not throw away gadgets (at least not to me). I think expecting support over the life of the warranty cover (which happens to be the amount of time between upgrades for me anyway) is not unreasonable. So I would expect 3 years of proper support, and I'd like to see what can be fixed with a f/w update to be fixed over that period of time. It's a win-win if JVC sees this as an investment in customer satisfaction/loyalty, rather than simply as an expense.

I strongly believe that JVC would sell MORE, not LESS if they did this, but I have little hope to see this happen.



Yes, that already happened a while ago (I forgot for which part of the f/w and on which models, but I think it was HDMI related). In the UK, dealers were allowed to do the upgrade because they had the special kit used to update that specific chip. In the U.S. it was a return to base. Looks like the same issue. I agree they need to move to IP/USB update, but I'm not sure it would solve it in this specific case, as they need to update the f/w of a specific chipset/board, rather than the main/sub f/w of the PJ itself, so it's a different (internal) connection.
JVC's policy has always been: Firmware updates to fix things, never to add features. With the 400/500/600 projectors being two generations back, I doubt anything will be done to them. It is not like they installed a broken version of HDR, since HDR standards were not even set when those projectors came out. Nobody else at that time even came close compared to JVC, for HDR on a projector.
Craig Peer likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1276 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:48 AM
Member
 
movieloverAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks. Here is my take on this. I think JVC should really consider these two options very carefully.
Agree 100% and in my opinion... customers like Manni should get a free projector for their wonderful contributions.

Also, they should improve bridges/prices/customer support/availability for international customers with their chosen foreign sellers.

Thank you and keep up the good work JVC
Manni01 likes this.

JVC DLA-X790R projector (RS540)
Denon avr-x6200w Atmos/DTS:X 7.2.4
movieloverAL is offline  
post #1277 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:50 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
Moderator
 
rboster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 25,065
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked: 2235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naylorman32 View Post
how long does it usually take to send in a projector to JVC and get it back?
I assume they'd use Mendtronixs for this update/fix? If so, I started a thread on their service awhile back. I'll see if I can find and add it to this post. I would plan on 3 weeks from your house and back. This is based on my experience....but they have a couple of different repair centers, so could be a week less or a week more (this is assuming they don't have a large inventory of repairs).

If it is Mendtronixs....make sure you specify you want them to reuse the JVC packing/box you sent the projector in ...otherwise, they will toss the box and use their own box/packing, which is no where near the quality of the JVC box.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...-feedback.html
Manni01 and Naylorman32 like this.
rboster is offline  
post #1278 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 11:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Buddylee123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,516
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 904 Post(s)
Liked: 622
I wonder if having the projector fixed will mess up any calibration that has been done? I really hate to waste the 400 I spent on that.
Buddylee123 is online now  
post #1279 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 12:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,143
Mentioned: 333 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5462 Post(s)
Liked: 5685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
JVC's policy has always been: Firmware updates to fix things, never to add features. With the 400/500/600 projectors being two generations back, I doubt anything will be done to them. It is not like they installed a broken version of HDR, since HDR standards were not even set when those projectors came out. Nobody else at that time even came close compared to JVC, for HDR on a projector.
I've never asked about new features. I've asked for fixes. Gamma D was broken. The DI was disabled in HDR for no good reason. I don't blame them for not releasing a proper HDR mode before UHD Bluray was released and have already said so in earlier posts. I just regret the way they are passing f/w fixes as "new features". Come on, I uploaded the BT2020-F and BT2020-NF colour profiles for the 2015 models more than a year ago, before they even released their identical BT2020 profile. And now they are trying to sell as "new features" the ability to choose between HDR "bright" and HDR "color"?

I personally don't care about any of this, I do all this already with my rs500 and my HD Fury Linker/Vertex, but it's not because it's their policy that it's the right policy.

Gamma D should have been fixed (they didn't implement it properly, even with their new f/w that used 4000nits instead of 10000nits). The DI shouldn't have been disabled in HDR. It's fine to have that option. Both of these should have been fixed on the 2015+ models, or JVC should have communicated and explained why it wasn't technically possible, which would be very difficult to do because it IS technically possible, we are doing it!

I am a fan of JVC and I like their products, I will still buy them if I prefer them to those of the competition, but I don't like the way they treat their customers.

I have been burnt a few times, and now I simply don't buy a JVC projector if it doesn't do what I want and if I can't try my specific unit before I buy. This means that I wait sometimes a year, sometimes more, before buying one of their products, because I have zero confidence in their will to fix problems. I wish I could trust their product support so that it provides fixes. I would buy earlier, and probably more often.

It's not because it's their policy that they can't change it for a better policy, especially when as far as Gamma D they didn't follow their policy (the black crush/raise black floor with Gamma D is a bug, not a feature, and it's an easy one to fix).

Last edited by Manni01; 09-10-2017 at 01:13 PM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #1280 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 12:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
blee0120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,955
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 897 Post(s)
Liked: 608
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post
That could be a little part of it as I've put 1,000 hours on lamp since ChadB calibrated it but the bright scenes have hardly ever had that "pop" effect that I see on DLP. I need to get my Eye One Display 3 recalibrated and then check it out to see if I need to touch up gamma.

Thanks for suggestion.



You got lucky finding that one. I look on there regularly and never come across one anywhere near that price. I see there is one in the classifieds here but it's $4k and has a lens I can't use and the lens I need is $2k. You be sure and let me know if you ever want to sell that one or see another one for sale for around same price.

Thanks guys,
Mike
I had a DPI HC 260 that I bought for $900, which looks almost identical image wise except with 2000 lumens. I'll try to contact the person I sold it to. Nothing like having a high end DLP and LCOS combo.
blee0120 is online now  
post #1281 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 12:13 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 16,357
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6988 Post(s)
Liked: 8270
This might be a nice little brother to my RS4500 - sitting right above it !





RonF, woofer, Manni01 and 1 others like this.

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
Craig Peer is offline  
post #1282 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 12:18 PM
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 10,827
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5167 Post(s)
Liked: 2594
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
It's a double edged sword of course for JVC. Their 4K panels seem to have about the same contrast as Sony's, so a native 4K JVC at <$10k would be very, very close in specs to a Sony. I know Sony has some issues, but from the pictures I've seen, I think I'd find their issues insignificant. I'd have to think long and hard if my choice was between JVC and Sony, both with <20,000:1 native contrast, especially with Sony's reputation for better motion, and IIRC they still offer a dark frame insertion mode? I find it really odd to think this, or say it, but I'm almost rooting against a native 4K JVC at the lower price points, I really want a Laser e-Shift machine, but either way, I probably won't upgrade past e-Shift until JVC or someone makes some significant strides with the contrast performance of native 4K panels.

I mean yeah, we all want the native 4K version of the RS640, something with native 4K panels, 160,000:1 native contrast, etc. But that doesn't seem likely any time soon, especially when their flagship model is roughly 1/10th that on the contrast front.

Maybe JVC is just betting/banking on their customer base being a bit more well informed than average, and that they'll (like me) be happy to pick better performance over a minor bump in visible resolution.
I think it's a little too soon to assume that JVCs 4K DiLA panels will only ever do the amount of contrast that the Z1 is capable of. There may have been other optical considerations that we aren't aware of that made the contrast level that low compared to the eshift units. More lumens or certain color characteristics that made them achieve less contrast on the Z1. I think we should be giving JVC the benefit of the doubt until we see at least one more generation or native 4K projectors on the market from them.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #1283 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 12:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 990
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 616 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
...It is not like they installed a broken version of HDR, since HDR standards were not even set when those projectors came out. Nobody else at that time even came close compared to JVC, for HDR on a projector.
You keep getting this wrong. It was announced in Jan 2015 that UHD BD would use ST2084, and that is what JVC blew with Gamma D on their 2016 models that were first shipped in November 2015.

And I don't recall any asterisks in the JVC RS500/600 brochure suggesting that since JVC had little understanding of HDR, it may not work, and if that was the case, JVC would not fix it.

Edit: Manni is right on in his comments. JVC can either go Clever or Dumb. So far it looks like dumb.
VideoGrabber, mbw23air and Manni01 like this.
rak306 is offline  
post #1284 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 01:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,143
Mentioned: 333 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5462 Post(s)
Liked: 5685
Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
You keep getting this wrong. It was announced in Jan 2015 that UHD BD would use ST2084, and that is what JVC blew with Gamma D on their 2016 models that were first shipped in November 2015.

And I don't recall any asterisks in the JVC RS500/600 brochure suggesting that since JVC had little understanding of HDR, it may not work, and if that was the case, JVC would not fix it.

Edit: Manni is right on in his comments. JVC can either go Clever or Dumb. So far it looks like dumb.
To be fair, JVC initially implemented ST2084, they just used the theoretical max brightness (10,000nits) instead of the actual max brightness used by the studios (4000nits), which led to a too dim picture. They also mistakenly thought that titles would be mastered to DCI-P3 when they were using a BT2020 container. They had no way to know how studios would master UHD blurays until the first players/titles were released, so it's a fully excusable and understandable mistake.

They corrected this in a f/w update, which improved the results at the top end, and they offered an "official" BT2020 profile for those who had not already started using mine, but they never fixed the issue at the low end, which was that you could either get crushed black or a raised black floor, due to a bug in the dark gamma setting.

This what they should have fixed, and never did in the 2015 models (they did in the 2017 models). These models are two year old now, they were not when the bug was identified and reported. That was done long before the release of the 2017 models.

It has nothing to do with the UHD BLuray specs. It's a bug, plain and simple, and it should have been fixed as per their own minimal policy.

Disabling the DI in HDR was a mistake. They should also have fixed this.

None of these two bugs/mistake would have meant a huge development for JVC. They are VERY easy fixes to implement.
VideoGrabber and DavidHir like this.

Last edited by Manni01; 09-10-2017 at 01:18 PM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #1285 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 01:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,922
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1937 Post(s)
Liked: 1231
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I
I am not discounting that at all, I absolutely believe what you are seeing. My comment is that is almost certainly not due to "ANSI contrast". At the picture levels that motion picture content runs with, even very, very bright content like The Art of Flight, the difference intrascene contrast is very small, or even non-existant. It's far more likely that there's a gamma difference between the Sonys and JVCs you've seen which would account for the difference. From what I've experienced with my JVCs vs what I've heard about Sonys, JVCs are not "ready to go" out of the box, they're pretty close but they need a good calibration to be their best, and especially after a few hundered hours when the gamma droop kicks in, that can just suck the life out of the picture. Fortunately on a JVC it's possible to fix that with their calibration software.

I really have to go back to what I've seen though, between my Planar 8150 and my JVC RS600 (and RS4910 before that), both of which I use and are hanging in my HT as I type this, despite the Planar likely having twice the ANSI contrast of the JVC, there is no apparent difference in the look of bright scenes between them. But I've done autocals on both JVC, and I know on my RS4910 it made quite a big difference in bright scenes. Other folks like Seegs and Zombie have seen the same thing. The common thread is that we've all made sure we've calibrated our JVCs properly. If you haven't seen a properly calibrated JVC, and if it had at least a couple hundred hours on it, then it almost certainly had gamma droop and that would explain the difference you're seeing.

But again, my point is just that "ANSI contrast" gets credit for a lot of things it has little or nothing to do with. It does so because it's an intrascene measurement and "it's got black and white on screen at the same time". However the test and the pattern is a very extreme example of intrascene contrast, and as has been shown numerous times by folks who have measured contrast at different average luminance levels (like Mark P and ProjectionDream), it's not very representative of real world content. Content with luminance levels which generally fall, at brightest, is around the "transition region", the region where ANSI stops being representative of the machine's performance and Native/On-Off becomes more representative. A region where "ANSI contrast" differences are less than 10-20% which is utterly insignificant to our visual system.

Darin wrote up a really good article on contrast for Secrets a while back:
http://hometheaterhifi.com/technical...splay-devices/
OK, thanks for clarifying. That sounds very logical to me. I haven't spent a lot of time with the JVC and the RS600 that I saw compared to a 675 Sony are all that I am going by. It is entirely possible that the JVC was suffering from gamma droop as it was at a video showroom. I suspect both projectors had at least 500 - 1000 hours on the lamp possibly more.
GregCh is offline  
post #1286 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 01:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 990
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 616 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
To be fair, JVC initially implemented ST2084, they just used the theoretical max brightness (10,000nits) instead of the actual max brightness used by the studios (4000nits), which led to a too dim picture. They had no way to know how studios would master UHD blurays until the first titles were released, so it's a fully excusable and understandable mistake.
Respectfully, I disagree. Even today, studios can (and at some point, likely will) release titles with 10k nit peak. How would that change anything? (Would you change your curves? - maybe but just a bit at the high end, not for the low end).

Inherent in HDR is the need to compress the wider input signal to the narrower output device. This is true for all current displays. This is what I think JVC misunderstood.

But it is a mute point now. I think we both agree that even if it took JVC until now to recognize what needs to be done for HDR, they should fix the RS5xx/6xx models with firmware updates. Indeed it should be a minor amount of effort.
rak306 is offline  
post #1287 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 01:26 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
You keep getting this wrong. It was announced in Jan 2015 that UHD BD would use ST2084, and that is what JVC blew with Gamma D on their 2016 models that were first shipped in November 2015.

And I don't recall any asterisks in the JVC RS500/600 brochure suggesting that since JVC had little understanding of HDR, it may not work, and if that was the case, JVC would not fix it.

Edit: Manni is right on in his comments. JVC can either go Clever or Dumb. So far it looks like dumb.
No, I do not keep getting this wrong. JVC had to make a lot of guesses on how HDR could work with a projector. Keep in mind the projectors were released for shipping in November 2015, but the design had to be done much earlier than that.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1288 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 01:32 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by klimo View Post
Could some 5xx units luck into getting the "right" parts and essentially have a 6xx?
You could luck into a 5 series that has contrast close to the 6 series. You could luck into a 5 series with a lens that is close to the 6 series, but the odds of lucking into a 5 series that has both the chip and lens that comes close to the 6 series is doubtful.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1289 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 01:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 990
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 616 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
No, I do not keep getting this wrong. JVC had to make a lot of guesses on how HDR could work with a projector. Keep in mind the projectors were released for shipping in November 2015, but the design had to be done much earlier than that.
I disagree, but like everyone else, I give JVC a pass on the 1st release. With any new release, there are bound to be issues. I also give JVC praise on their 1st firmware release, addressing the 2 bugs relatively quickly. But after that nothing - and we are left with a broken Gamma D. So as far as customer support goes, my grade is C- to D+.

As you and others have said, this is par for JVC.

For me - it's a don't care, because I use the Linker, with an Arve curve. But it is still a perfect example of how to alienate your customers.
VideoGrabber and Manni01 like this.
rak306 is offline  
post #1290 of 2570 Old 09-10-2017, 01:39 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Since there has been an open thread regarding the issue for at least the past 5 months, and the first I heard of the fix was yesterday, I highly doubt the ones in-stock anywhere have the fix already in them, unless it is an absolutely fresh shipment from JVC.
The 420/520 and 620 projectors that have not shipped from JVC, do have CMD repaired.
Bytehoven and Haiej like this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off