JVC DLA-X5900/X7900/X9900 : JVC will introduce 3 new DLA models at IFA BERLIN 2017 - Page 64 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1891 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by nellie75 View Post
That's what I needed to know. So the extra contrast isn't wasted on a less than perfect theater.

The reason I brought this up is I was led to believe (2 years ago when I bought my RS400) that there was little benefit in spending extra on a 5xx or 6xx with my theater being less than ideal.
i have typical lounge room setup. white ceiling white walls. do have a charcoal carpet that made a difference, but otherwise typical non dedicated room. when i upgraded from my 9000 series epson to jvc x35 i saw quite a step. and saw quite a step up again going to the jvc x7000. so I wouldn't believe anyone telling you its not worth upgrading just because you dont have a velvet pit, black hole dedicated room. it doesnt mean there are no benefits of this kind of room. but these better projectors do bring benefit even in non dedicated settings.

I am not sure i would pony up for the top of the tree 6XX but I would go the 5XX over 4XX. if the 6XX had more warranty or something yes. but otherwise for hand picked parts i myself wouldn't. that said both 6XX and 5XX should be coming with 5 year warranties for kind of expensive and level of projector they are. even my retailer agrees.

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post #1892 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
Hey I am suppose to be on that list Is Mike sleeping or are you just better and quicker than him
I did call you.
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post #1893 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nellie75 View Post
I just got a phone call from Mike on pre-order pricing. Just need to decide if I do the 440 or 540. Would $1300 more for the 540 be worth it? I have dark gray paint on ceiling and walls and black carpet. The walls are not devoid of reflection though and I have plenty of wall art with glass frames.
The 540 will provide a better image in all rooms. The better the room, the larger the gap between the two. Also the 540 has the DCI P3 color filter.
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post #1894 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The 540 will provide a better image in all rooms. The better the room, the larger the gap between the two. Also the 540 has the DCI P3 color filter.
What about the gap between the 540 and 640? Is the step up as large as the gap between the 440 and 540? What's the price difference between the 540 and 640, if you can post it without violating board rules? (I'm going to get an email from Craig, but I'm impatient.)
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post #1895 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by GatorBlues View Post
What about the gap between the 540 and 640? Is the step up as large as the gap between the 440 and 540? What's the price difference between the 540 and 640, if you can post it without violating board rules? (I'm going to get an email from Craig, but I'm impatient.)
The biggest gap is between 440 and 540.
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post #1896 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by talon95 View Post
Doesn't the 440 still lack the wide color filter also?? Hence a wider color gamut for the 540?? I know that was true for previous models.
Yes, that is one reason there is a big difference between the 440 and the 540.
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post #1897 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yes, that is one reason there is a big difference between the 440 and the 540.
is the 440 also still running the old light engine ? i.e. different to 540/640 ?

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post #1898 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 05:38 PM
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uggghhhh.. the agony. I can't decide if I want to pre-order a JVC RS640 (I had previously sworn off e-shift for ever) or get the Sony 385. I know the JVC has better contrast. I am concerned about sharpness as my 4k UHD disc is getting quite large and I game in 4k.

Can anyone offer honest opinions regarding something like the Sony 1100 vs. the 620 series sharpness as seen on screen? My thought is that the upgraded lens on the 385 might compare to the older Sony 1100.

It seems that some are stating that even though the Sony uses native 4k panels the lens and other components in the image path don't allow much or any sharpness gain over the JVC line.

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post #1899 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
uggghhhh.. the agony. I can't decide if I want to pre-order a JVC RS640 (I had previously sworn off e-shift for ever) or get the Sony 385. I know the JVC has better contrast. I am concerned about sharpness as my 4k UHD disc is getting quite large and I game in 4k.

Can anyone offer honest opinions regarding something like the Sony 1100 vs. the 620 series sharpness as seen on screen? My thought is that the upgraded lens on the 385 might compare to the older Sony 1100.

It seems that some are stating that even though the Sony uses native 4k panels the lens and other components in the image path don't allow much or any sharpness gain over the JVC line.
Seegs, Zombie10k. Both users who each owned a Sony 1100ES and now both own JVC units. If they thought the sharpness differential was that substantial stacked against the other image characteristics, they would probably still own them.

TheSony4kRises also recently bought a RS600 and still currently owns an 1100ES, he seems to be extremely happy with the JVC's image. Of course the 4k Sony is going to be just a little sharper, but I can tell you this, the sharpness from the image on either projector is not going to be its defining characteristic, you will be happy with the sharpness whichever brand you go with.

If e-shift 4/5 was truly not as good as it is, then there would certainly not be as many JVC owners right now myself included. My UHD BR's look phenomenal and I marvel quite often at the sharpness in the image, equally, its contrast.
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post #1900 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 06:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Seegs, Zombie10k. Both users who each owned a Sony 1100ES and now both own JVC units. If they thought the sharpness differential was that substantial stacked against the other image characteristics, they would probably still own them.

TheSony4kRises also recently bought a RS600 and still currently owns an 1100ES, he seems to be extremely happy with the JVC's image. Of course the 4k Sony is going to be just a little sharper, but I can tell you this, the sharpness from the image on either projector is not going to be its defining characteristic, you will be happy with the sharpness whichever brand you go with.

If e-shift 4/5 was truly not as good as it is, then there would certainly not be as many JVC owners right now myself included. My UHD BR's look phenomenal and I marvel quite often at the sharpness in the image, equally, its contrast.
How does JVC EShift do on the single pixel checkboard test pattern?
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post #1901 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
How does JVC EShift do on the single pixel checkboard test pattern?
It fails miserably since its not a native 4k panel.

But if you display the 1080p versions of any pattern it passes spectacularly with perfect rendition and flawless uniformity.
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post #1902 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 06:12 PM
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I just sent you a PM.
Can I get the info as well?

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post #1903 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 06:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
It seems that some are stating that even though the Sony uses native 4k panels the lens and other components in the image path don't allow much or any sharpness gain over the JVC line.
I think the 'other components in the image path' / 8 bit bottle neck on the Sony rumor has been debunked at this point. The issues with single pixel width 4k test patterns appears to be entirely due to (admittedly difficult to defeat) convergence adjustments Sony installs at the factory.

Having said that I like EShift well enough. It does a decent job at displaying 4k content.
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post #1904 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
is the 440 also still running the old light engine ? i.e. different to 540/640 ?
Yes, same light engine as 420.
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post #1905 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 06:53 PM
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My current plan is to have a big screen -- 2.35/1 and 150" wide. The room won't have any windows. Do the JVCs throw enough light for this?
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post #1906 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 06:58 PM
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My current plan is to have a large screen -- 2.35:1 and 150" side (larger diagonally). The room has no windows, so it can be pitch black for movies, but will have some dim lights during sports. Do the new JVCs throw enough light for this?
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post #1907 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by GatorBlues View Post
My current plan is to have a big screen -- 2.35/1 and 150" wide. The room won't have any windows. Do the JVCs throw enough light for this?
What fabric do you intend to use in your screen?
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post #1908 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 07:09 PM
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What fabric do you intend to use in your screen?
I would like it to be acoustically transparent, but otherwise, I have no idea. I'm planning the room now. It hasn't been drywalled yet. Any recommendations?
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post #1909 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 07:55 PM
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I would like it to be acoustically transparent, but otherwise, I have no idea. I'm planning the room now. It hasn't been drywalled yet. Any recommendations?
150" wide and AT, means low gain, if using a woven screen. That means not enough brightness for HDR. If you go with a microperf ST130 or Ultramatte 150, you will have enough brightness., but expensive screen.
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post #1910 of 2570 Old 09-19-2017, 08:05 PM
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Can I get the info as well?

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Yup !
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post #1911 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 07:29 AM
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After exhaustive research on these forums I think I've decided to go with the JVC. To me contrast and HDR are more important than perceived sharpness increase that a DLP 4k could deliver.(I've never been able to compare the two) I had previously considered an Optoma UHD65 but the input lag and limited placement options was a deal breaker for me. I have an Optoma HD29Darbee now and I'm impressed with the picture and the 3D but the contrast isn't as good as a previously owned Epson 5030. I also own a 43" LG 4k w/HDR and I'm sick of waiting for a projector that will match these smaller TV's. I have a light controlled room with medium beige walls and white ceiling but the curtains are black and block all ambient light. The screen I have is Elite Screens 106" 1.1 gain Cinewhite and my seating distance is 17'. I plan on changing to Elite Screens Cinegray ambient light rejecting screen in 110" because I'd like to occasionally have lights on when I have people over to watch a game-anyone have experience with this type of screen with the JVC's? I'm undecided between the RS540 or RS640. The price on the 640 is pushing it for me so it'll probably be the 540.

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post #1912 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GatorBlues View Post
My current plan is to have a large screen -- 2.35:1 and 150" side (larger diagonally). The room has no windows, so it can be pitch black for movies, but will have some dim lights during sports. Do the new JVCs throw enough light for this?
Another option is to go a bit smaller (maybe ~135") but sit closer if at all possible.
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post #1913 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by cgrasso83 View Post
After exhaustive research on these forums I think I've decided to go with the JVC. To me contrast and HDR are more important than perceived sharpness increase that a DLP 4k could deliver.(I've never been able to compare the two) I had previously considered an Optoma UHD65 but the input lag and limited placement options was a deal breaker for me. I have an Optoma HD29Darbee now and I'm impressed with the picture and the 3D but the contrast isn't as good as a previously owned Epson 5030. I also own a 43" LG 4k w/HDR and I'm sick of waiting for a projector that will match these smaller TV's. I have a light controlled room with medium beige walls and white ceiling but the curtains are black and block all ambient light. The screen I have is Elite Screens 106" 1.1 gain Cinewhite and my seating distance is 17'. I plan on changing to Elite Screens Cinegray ambient light rejecting screen in 110" because I'd like to occasionally have lights on when I have people over to watch a game-anyone have experience with this type of screen with the JVC's? I'm undecided between the RS540 or RS640. The price on the 640 is pushing it for me so it'll probably be the 540.

Thanks,
Chris
What projector do you currently have? Reason I ask. Watch a sporting event with lights on (as you plan for game day) with current projector and see how the image looks. Even with a white screen, you can have quite a bit of light on in a room, particularly if you keep it toward the back of the room. So your white screen may be perfectly fine with sports and you would not be giving up any image quality in the dark. ALR screens work better in the light, but do not provide as good of an image in the dark if you have a good room. If I can help answer your questions, shoot me a PM, so we do not go off topic so much.
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post #1914 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
How does JVC EShift do on the single pixel checkboard test pattern?

Well most the Sony's don't do to well with the 4K ones either, and don't even try to look at a 1080p single pixel pattern with a Sony. The JVC's resolve the 1080p perfectly with eShift off but fail the 4K one. The JVC RS4500 does spectacular with BOTH the 1080p AND the 4K one.
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post #1915 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 09:37 AM
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If you turn on sub-pixel/zone convergence and chromatic-aberration correction on the JVC units, would they really perform noticeably better on these patterns than the 4K Sony models? Not defending Sony's decision to force these features on their projectors but some people also use these features on their JVC/Epson projectors due to the reduction in visible color-fringing on real content vs. test patterns.

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post #1916 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 09:53 AM
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I have dust blobs which need to be removed, and some kind of freaking black bar across the bottom of my panel. I cant see this black bar in content, but I can see a large blur orb from the dust on one of the panels, but if the PJ goes in for any reason, I want all these fixed since it will be in there already.

The pics are paper test btw, not pics of my screen.
Interesting. Are you sure those dust blobs were not there out-of-the-box? My RS600 had some too but I noticed them immediately (on white, not black) so likely introduced during assembly at the factory. I always assumed LCOS projectors had sealed light paths that were immune from getting additional dust while in use?
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post #1917 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 09:57 AM
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Well most the Sony's don't do to well with the 4K ones either, and don't even try to look at a 1080p single pixel pattern with a Sony. The JVC's resolve the 1080p perfectly with eShift off but fail the 4K one. The JVC RS4500 does spectacular with BOTH the 1080p AND the 4K one.
No, this has been debunked. All you need to do is turn off the electronic convergence in the service menu and 4K & 1080p single pixel patterns look great.

It seems that the electronic convergence algorithm is fooled by the single pixel patterns and was the cause of all the color moire and other issues.

Take a look in the 675 forum for pictures. I think Sony chose to implement the electronic convergence because it helps with normal video to remove some lens artifacts in the corners, etc. but for test patterns it causes issues. I guess Sony didn't care about test pattern imaging.

JVC eshift projectors can't handle 4k patterns nearly as well as the Sony once the electronic convergence is turned off.
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post #1918 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 10:04 AM
 
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If you turn on sub-pixel convergence and chromatic-aberration correction on the JVC units, would they really perform noticeably better on these patterns than the 4K Sony models? Not defending Sony's decision to force these features on their projectors but some people also use these features on their JVC/Epson projectors due to the reduction in visible color-fringing on real content vs. test patterns.
I don't think anyone cares that the patterns look bad. People don't watch patterns. Despite what some would have you think, I've seen first hand what real content looks like with this issue. There are plenty of occasions where this issue shows up with actual content (on top of a couple other issues due to the panel driver limitation such as posterization and banding). I would also like to point out that most people will not go into the service menu and alter things. A few enthusiasts here on the forum might, but thats about it. Sony should be disabling this feature from here on out at the factory. It's ridiculous that they think these artifacts are an okay compromise to fix a hardware problem they consciously decided to put in these projectors. Fix the lens. The whole pixel adjustment is fine and will compensate for CA or convergence errors enough and that doesnt seem to add noticeable artifacts. I said this about Reality Creation years back when it first came out and I think the logic applies here too. It seems Sony likes to make software to try and fix hardware issues that shouldn't be there at these price points to begin with. The lens in the HW 1080p Sony units was and is garbage. Cheapo $500 DLP projectors have better lenses. They used RC as an excuse to make it seem like the optical performance was better than it was, but this comes at the cost of image quality because setting RC too high, which is the only way to compensate for the poor lens, introduces sharpening artifacts into the image. Now while the lens used in these 4K projectors is definitely a lot better, it's not up to the quality of where it should be. JVC and Epson have an obviosuly better lens in their reflective Lcd projectors. I've seen it first hand. Sony is obviously aware of the shortcomings of this lens because Sony themselves still feels they need to use software to correct issues with the hardware choices they make. If they just put solid hardware into their projectors we wouldn't even be having tbis conversation right now. Put a better panel driver to fix the posterization issues and put a solid lens into this projector so you're not forcing people into odd colored artifacts.

With that said, to answer your other question, JVCs zone correction software does not introduce the odd snake lines and colored patches into the image. But from the dozens of JVCs I've seen, they've all had a lens good enough not to introduce large chromatic aberrations and the factory set panel alignment was good enough that most people don't need to use the zone correction anyways. But if you want to use it, it is largely artifact free.
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post #1919 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 10:18 AM
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I don't think anyone cares that the patterns look bad. People don't watch patterns. Despite what some would have you think, I've seen first hand what real content looks like with this issue. There are plenty of occasions where this issue shows up with actual content (on top of a couple other issues due to the panel driver limitation such as posterization and banding).
The future is in image processing and large sample sizes not high dollar optics.

Take a look at cameras and cell phone photos. The cell phone image processing and multiple exposures with multi sampling is starting to produce images as good if not better than $20,000 DSLR cameras from the 80s.

Yes, it would be nice if all optical equipment had perfect lens. But the costs would never come down and the masses would never have access to decent imaging devices. With image processing, large sampling, and improved processing even less than stellar optics can produce stellar images. It will only get better and cheaper over time.

As for the panel driver issue. I still have my doubts that it even exists after seeing the results the Sony produces with the electronic conversion disabled. Could there be another issue, maybe but I think it needs to be tested to find out. The single pixel test patterns that Mirodk posted look pretty dang good.

Possibly the posterization you were seeing was a result of this same issue. I don't know. It needs new testing to find out.
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post #1920 of 2570 Old 09-20-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
What projector do you currently have? Reason I ask. Watch a sporting event with lights on (as you plan for game day) with current projector and see how the image looks. Even with a white screen, you can have quite a bit of light on in a room, particularly if you keep it toward the back of the room. So your white screen may be perfectly fine with sports and you would not be giving up any image quality in the dark. ALR screens work better in the light, but do not provide as good of an image in the dark if you have a good room. If I can help answer your questions, shoot me a PM, so we do not go off topic so much.
Mike,

I have an Optoma HD29Darbee. If ALR screens don't work as well in the dark that wouldn't be for me. 90% of viewing is in the dark.

Thank you,
Chris

Last edited by cgrasso83; 09-20-2017 at 11:43 AM.
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