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post #61 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelSilver View Post
Unfortunately, there are no 4K projectors with HDR for under $1000, and I don't expect to see any in the near future. However, I would wait until CEDIA before buying anything, since there are usually amazing announcements at that show.
I'm not necessarily expecting under a grand - just wondering what the best value vs quality is currently available. Also when is CEDIA?
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post #62 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 04:07 PM
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post #63 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAragon View Post
I'm not necessarily expecting under a grand - just wondering what the best value vs quality is currently available. Also when is CEDIA?
Cedia is in 2 weeks.
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post #64 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 04:28 PM
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Do you have any recommendations on screen makers and/or sizes for a small apartment? Thanks.

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post #65 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAragon View Post
I'm not necessarily expecting under a grand - just wondering what the best value vs quality is currently available. Also when is CEDIA?
CEDIA is Sept 5th-9th in beautiful San Diego.

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post #66 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelSilver View Post
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I moved away from projection 5 years ago because the black levels and contrast ratio weren't very good. What's the maximum black level/contrast ratio that's possible with a projection system now and how does it compare to the best OLED/LCD televisions? Thank you.
Great question - we can answer with DCI specs that are the basis for the CTA/CEDIA standard. DCI specs for commercial theaters are 100 to one checkerboard and 1200 to one for sequential patterns – price no object systems with complete room control are 150 to one and 2000 to one – flat panels can go way beyond that and OLEDs cannot be measured – we do not have "Black" meters!
I know the time for questions and answers is over, but just wanted to mention that the DCI specs were developed for SDR cinema and were minimum values. For those of us wanting to do as much of the best aspects of HDR as we can, that is another ballgame, as doing it right not only requires the whites to be bright enough, it requires the range between white and black to be high enough. The lowest CR I've seen allowed for TVs to be called HDR would come out to at least 20k:1 on/off CR for a projector and the Dolby Cinema HDR projectors (which aren't available for home as far as I know) have zones and can do more than 1 million:1 on/off CR, although the rooms may not support that much (like if the lights are on in the projection booth).

I know Scott has experienced what Dolby Cinema can do with HDR in the cinema (even though limited to about 100 nits for white) and I'm sure he understands why many of us are aiming for that kind of performance much more than SDR DCI performance or even just IMAX performance as far as blacks, and are hoping manufacturers continue to aim high for on/off CR.

Those of us with smaller screens, who don't need DCI class projectors, not only have an advantage of being able to go higher nits, but have choices for projectors with higher native on/off CRs than the most expensive projectors for home use, if we want.

This has been a strange industry for a while as far as the range people could get between white and black. The people spending the most on projectors have often gotten the least for that parameter. I used to tell people that if they wanted to spend $100k they could get 2k:1 on/off CR, but if they wanted to spend under $10k they could get 50k:1 on/off CR.

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post #67 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey everyone, thanks for all the great questions for today's AMA on home-theater projection! As expected, Joel Silver was not able to answer every question, especially from the pre-thread. I'll be answering as many of those as I can in the next couple of days. However, keep in mind that I won't be answering questions submitted after 12:30 PM Pacific/3:30 PM Eastern today in this thread. If you'd like to ask more questions about home-theater projection or anything else in the AV universe, please send them to [email protected], and Mark Henninger or I will post separate responses as we can.
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post #68 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by clientnumber9 View Post
Does one screen color (ie white or gray) lend itself to better performance with newer HDR/WCG capable projectors? or is your choice of screen color still dependent on your room and individual preference on image?

Thanks!
The color of the screen (white or gray) should have no effect on the color of the image. (Note I said should; if the screen does not have a flat spectral response, it can distort the colors you see.) As for dynamic range, a gray screen typically lowers the black and white levels of the image, so there is no improvement in the measured contrast. However, because the human visual system is logarithmic, a 10% drop in black level is much more noticeable than a 10% drop in white level, so the perceived contrast is better.

This choice is much more about the environment; if you have some uncontrolled ambient light and/or light-colored walls, a gray screen is generally better than a white one. Even better for this situation is an ambient light-rejecting screen. Also, a gray screen can improve the perceived performance of a projector with a naturally high black level. If you have an ideal room (perfect control of ambient light with dark walls, ceiling, and floor) and a projector with a low black level, a white, unity-gain screen is best.
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post #69 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shoeboo View Post
Is Dolby Vision for consumer home projectors anywhere on the horizon?
Joel addressed this a bit, but I'll reiterate: the answer is no, Dolby Vision for consumer home projectors is not on the horizon.
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post #70 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TL5 View Post
Will HDMI 2.1 be incorporated in projectors this fall?
No; there are no commercially available HDMI 2.1 chipsets yet, so don't expect HDMI 2.1 in projectors or TVs for at least a year, and probably longer.
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post #71 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kadath View Post
Is -any- HDR capable "real" 4K projection solution coming any time soon? At the sub $3k level?
That depends on what you call "real" 4K. If we dismiss the JVC and Epson "pixel-wiggling" faux-K projectors, we're left with the Sony projectors, which are true 4K and HDR capable, but none are under $3000. The Optoma UHD60 and UHD65 models are HDR-capable and use the new DLP chip that has 4 million micromirrors, which are oscillated back and forth to generate 8 million pixels on the screen. This is closer to "real" 4K than JVC or Epson achieve, and both Optoma models are under $3000. However, they are single-chip designs with a color-filter wheel, which causes some people to see the "rainbow effect."
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post #72 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadath View Post
Is -any- HDR capable "real" 4K projection solution coming any time soon? At the sub $3k level?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
That depends on what you call "real" 4K. If we dismiss the JVC and Epson "pixel-wiggling" faux-K projectors, we're left with the Sony projectors, which are true 4K and HDR capable, but none are under $3000. The Optoma UHD60 and UHD65 models are HDR-capable and use the new DLP chip that has 4 million micromirrors, which are oscillated back and forth to generate 8 million pixels on the screen. This is closer to "real" 4K than JVC or Epson achieve, and both Optoma models are under $3000. However, they are single-chip designs with a color-filter wheel, which causes some people to see the "rainbow effect."
I just want to add that even if you have a projector capable of true 4K, with lower cost projectors the lens is a significant limiting factor. So while the new DLP units are not "true," 4K that's not likely to affect how much detail they can show, or that you'd see. What I consider to be of far greater importance is the addition of support for wide color gamut and HDR, and as long as a projector can accept a 4K signal, the ability to tap into UHD streams that have a much higher bitrate than HD streams.

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post #73 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 06:46 PM
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As for dynamic range, a gray screen typically lowers the black and white levels of the image, so there is no improvement in the measured contrast.
For that kind of contrast (on/off CR) it does lower both the same percentage, but where gray screens (and no black screens) can help is system ANSI CR. That is, they can help the actual ratio between white and black in mixed images, like the ANSI checkerboard.

I explained some of this in an article I wrote in 2006 about contrast ratio that is here:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13...06-part-2.html

where the screen part is in the "Contrast Ratios and the Room Enviroment" section. Here is some of it:
Quote:
But ANSI CR can be helped by things like gray screens when the projector is bright enough to maintain a good white level with that screen. Gray screens basically help ANSI CR by reducing the effect of secondary reflections. For instance, ignoring directionality, a screen with 0.5 gain will kill half the light hitting it compared to a standard 1.0 gain white screen. That won't help the CR for the light going from the projector to the screen the first time, but only half the light will go toward the walls with the 0.5 gain screen and any reflections that come back will get reduced by 50% again, and so on. So, ignoring 3rd order and beyond effects, where the darker screen continues to help, this is similar to 0.5 gain for the initial light from the projector and 0.25 gain for the reflections coming back from the room, or a 2:1 ratio in favor of the light you generally want to see and against the light you want to reject. The result is less washout effect than with a standard 1.0 gain white screen where the initial light from the projector and the reflections both get 1.0 gain, or a 1:1 ratio.

Screens with directional layers can also help ANSI CR off the screen for a viewer in less than perfect rooms by giving more gain for the projected light for a viewer at a particular location compared to the average gain for the secondary reflections. For instance, a person sitting at a 2.0 gain position for a high gain screen should only get about 1.0 gain average at most for reflections around the room that come from random directions and then fall back on the screen.
--Darin
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post #74 of 124 Old 08-23-2017, 10:22 PM
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This is about 3D. I'm glad that 3D was not taken off the menu in future home projector production and I'm curious will passive 3D projectors become the mainstream or at least have equal footing with its active counterparts? As you probably can tell, I prefer passive glasses as oppose to active ones.
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post #75 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 05:51 AM
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I first want to thank Joel for taking the time to come here and answer questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSilver View Post
Great question - we can answer with DCI specs that are the basis for the CTA/CEDIA standard. DCI specs for commercial theaters are 100 to one checkerboard and 1200 to one for sequential patterns – price no object systems with complete room control are 150 to one and 2000 to one – flat panels can go way beyond that and OLEDs cannot be measured – we do not have "Black" meters!
However, I don't believe that answered the original question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by avdoc View Post
I moved away from projection 5 years ago because the black levels and contrast ratio weren't very good. What's the maximum black level/contrast ratio that's possible with a projection system now and how does it compare to the best OLED/LCD televisions? Thank you.
I can't personally answer how it compares to OLED, but current JVC projectors are capable of well over 100,000:1 native contrast, and over 350,000:1 dynamic contrast. This has been measured multiple times, by multiple individuals in real home theaters. Here's an example:
https://translate.google.com/transla...0/&prev=search

You might want to check out the RS600 thread, a member there (PioManiac) has an OLED and JVC in his HT and has posted pictures:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post54680854


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSilver View Post
The important word here is "affordable." The key to getting theater-quality projection on a budget is a relatively small screen in a perfectly dark room with dark walls. Look at the DCI specifications as a guide to performance.
I'd like to say that I think most of us with projection home theaters find that our theaters outperform theaters in almost every way. And DCI specifications (other than brightness of 14-16fL) are so far below the mark for what's possible or desirable, I'm not sure what their value is to home theater. Who would shoot for just 1200:1 sequential contrast when the average (for $3000+) is 10,000-20,000 and 100,000:1+ is possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAragon View Post
I'm not necessarily expecting under a grand - just wondering what the best value vs quality is currently available. Also when is CEDIA?
Take a look a the JVC RSx20 line, or whatever they (or anyone) announces at CEDIA. While not native 4K, e-shift does provide a nice boost in detail over native 1080p, and more importantly, they have the the contrast and WCG capabilities to do UHD/HDR justice, and are among the brightest machines available for home theater. Hopefully Sony will have something price competitive with them at CEDIA, and hopefully Epson will bring out an improved LS10500 (brighter and sharper mainly). We'll have to wait and see though.
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post #76 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 10:22 AM
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Any sub $3k home theater laser projectors on the horizon? With HDR?
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post #77 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CollectedDust View Post
How important is a projector screen for getting the most benefit of HDR content? I'm looking into upgrading to a Sony vw675es (currently have a Sony hw30es), yet my screen is fairly basic (110" Silver Ticket). Do I need to also upgrade my screen to get the benefit of this projector?

If it matters, my room has no windows or light coming in; however, the walls and ceiling are fairly light.
The screen is critically important for getting the most benefit out of any projector, HDR or not. Because your walls and ceiling are fairly light, I recommend a gray screen over a white one. You don't say if your Silver Ticket screen is white or gray; if it's gray, you probably don't need to upgrade it. I would also consider painting the walls and ceiling a dark, neutral gray.
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post #78 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thunderbird1100 View Post
I am brand new into the projector home theater game and picked myself up a Benq HT2050. I am very satisfied with the performance and the image size is around 140" right now projecting on a beige/grayish wall. I am going to permanently mount projector from the ceiling and trying to get an image size of 120".

My question is will a screen really make that large of a difference for the investment (this is a budget setup after-all, I got the projector for only $550) in it? If so, what budget minded screen would you recommend? I've seen 120" screens as cheap as under $100 at Fry's Electronics (manual; pull down...Inland is the brand name) to the often recommended Silver Ticket 120" fixed frame screen on Amazon (~$250) to seeing monoprice's 120" motorized screens go for under $300 when they have sales/specials.

Would you recommend any of those, and would they be worth it in budget minded setup of mine?
I would definitely NOT use a beige/grayish wall as your screen. It will distort the colors, and the texture of the wall could cause visible problems. As you point out, there are several inexpensive screens available today. I would generally stay away from no-name brands. Silver Ticket is well regarded, and I've heard good things about Monoprice screens. I would guess the rest of the walls in that room are beige/grayish, which means fairly light, so I would get a gray screen rather than white.
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post #79 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wiyosaya View Post
Does the theater room for a projection system need to be totally dark?
That's the ideal situation. If it's not, you can use a gray or ambient light-rejecting screen to get a fairly good result, but a totally dark room is best.
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post #80 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post
If we do not have the minimum throw distance needed to fill a particular screen size what options do we have that will allow us to achieve such other than finding a 4k HDR short/ultra-short throw projector?

How often should you clean a projector? when the bulb needs to be replaces or sooner?
If you can't place a conventional projector far enough from the screen to fill it, the only option I can think of is an ultra short-throw projector. As for cleaning a projector, I assume you mean cleaning the filter? I don't know for sure, but I would guess once a year or so. I'll see if Joel has a different recommendation.
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post #81 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post
If we do not have the minimum throw distance needed to fill a particular screen size what options do we have that will allow us to achieve such other than finding a 4k HDR short/ultra-short throw projector?

How often should you clean a projector? when the bulb needs to be replaces or sooner?

You can place a conversion lens in front of a projector and increase the screen size. An anamorphic lens will allow you to throw a much larger scope image from a shorter throw, though you would need to use a curved screen to remove the increased pincushion. You can use a first surface mirror to increase the throw distance, allowing for a larger size image in your room.
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post #82 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxker View Post
Will we ever see cost effective projectors that needs no bulb replacement or have very long lasting bulbs. If so, how far off is that dream?
That depends on what you mean by "cost effective." We already have laser-illuminated projectors that require no bulb replacement, but they cost $8000 and up. I think it will be some years before they fall into the under-$3000 price range.
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post #83 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you think Micro-LED technology will trickle down into the consumer market and hurt projector sales?
Not for a very long time.
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post #84 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raif71 View Post
This is about 3D. I'm glad that 3D was not taken off the menu in future home projector production and I'm curious will passive 3D projectors become the mainstream or at least have equal footing with its active counterparts? As you probably can tell, I prefer passive glasses as oppose to active ones.
That's extremely unlikely. Adding an IR transmitter to support active 3D is easy enough, costs a few bucks, and people who do not use it can ignore it. There is no consumer projector that I know of that is capable of passive 3D, and I don't expect that research and development dollars are going into designing one. Of course that doesn't mean you can't do passive 3D, the topic has been covered in the forums.

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post #85 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robr6 View Post
When designing a media room for movies, games and sports is the screen material just as important as the projector itself?
Yes, absolutely. The projector and screen comprise a system; both contribute to the final image quality.
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post #86 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'd like to say that I think most of us with projection home theaters find that our theaters outperform theaters in almost every way. And DCI specifications (other than brightness of 14-16fL) are so far below the mark for what's possible or desirable, I'm not sure what their value is to home theater. Who would shoot for just 1200:1 sequential contrast when the average (for $3000+) is 10,000-20,000 and 100,000:1+ is possible?
DCI specification is 2,000:1 on/off contrast nominal with 1,200:1 minimum for theatres. Intra-scene checker board contrast 150:1 nominal with 100:1 minimum for theatres. Then there are all the other specifications, luminance and luminance uniformity, color accuracy and uniformity, gamma tracking smoothness, etcetera. I doubt I have ever been to a commercial cinema that meets the DCI specifications. Its a shame they are not enforced on commercial cinemas.

Do the current $3,000+ home cinema projectors easily meet all the DCI specifications if applied to REC 709. While say a JVC DILA projector will easily exceed the contrast specifications do they meet the luminance and luminance uniformity, the white point accuracy and uniformity, the color accuracy and uniformity, the smooth gamma tracking, etcetera. When according to Cine4home some having bright corners, some vary by 290K across the screen and some having a green primary so far off the standards they cannot be calibrated.

What is frustrating is home cinema projector specifications either omit key information or read like works of fiction. The budget 4K DLP projectors being a obvious extreme example.

While there still seems to be a niche market for ultra high end home cinemas that compared to JVC projectors claim extremely low specifications. From Barco residential to home IMAX. Yet supposedly they are amongst the best money can buy.
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post #87 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Do the current $3,000+ home cinema projectors easily meet all the DCI specifications if applied to REC 709. While say a JVC DILA projector will easily exceed the contrast specifications do they meet the luminance and luminance uniformity, the white point accuracy and uniformity, the color accuracy and uniformity, the smooth gamma tracking, etcetera.
Outside of uniformity (I don't know what the spec is, or what being outside it would look like) but I would be quite surprised if a JVC can't easily meet/exceed everything else. With the JVC autocal software, it's quite easy to get a JVC calibrated (SDR) to within 2dE across a 33 point gamma, white point, primaries, etc. As far as uniformity, outside of bright corners (I'll leave that debate elsewhere) there are no uniformity issues that are noticeable even with test patterns.

I'd say a JVC (RS5x0 or above) could even meet it applied to DCI P3, they generally hit about 98-99% of P3.

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When according to Cine4home some having bright corners, some vary by 290K across the screen and some having a green primary so far off the standards they cannot be calibrated.
I'd consider any projector like that broken, and seek an immediate replacement, that sounds like an anomaly.

This doesn't apply just to JVC, any of the "high end" projectors (Sony, Epson, even 1080p DLPs) should be the same.

What I know is, I haven't left a commercial theater in years not feeling disappointed, most notably with contrast/black level. The RS600 throws an image a commercial theater (other than possibly Dolby Cinema, which I haven't seen) can't even touch. Same with sound, commercial theaters are pumping out harsh, bloated, distorted, nearly painful audio where as my HT produces deep, full, clear, non-fatiguing sound. Especially now with UHD and WCG at home, I can't think of a single image or sound quality metric that I find better at a commercial theater.
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post #88 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
What I know is, I haven't left a commercial theater in years not feeling disappointed, most notably with contrast/black level. The RS600 throws an image a commercial theater (other than possibly Dolby Cinema, which I haven't seen) can't even touch. Same with sound, commercial theaters are pumping out harsh, bloated, distorted, nearly painful audio where as my HT produces deep, full, clear, non-fatiguing sound.
I have seen a few movies in a Dolby Cinema and while they did look great I still prefer the picture that I get from my RS420. The biggest complaint I have is your second part, the audio is always WAY too loud. My girlfriend recently said that her favorite thing about doing the home theater is that the sound isn't too loud like it is at the movies.
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post #89 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post
Is it possible to see a difference in picture quality between a true 4K projector and an E-Shift projector on a 100 inch screen when one is sitting about 8-9 feet away from the screen? Thanks.

Cal68
Assuming you're talking about a 16:9 (1.78:1) screen, the seating distance you specify is about twice the screen height. At that distance, it would be very difficult to see the difference between true 4K and e-Shift. It might be possible for someone with so-called "golden eyes" looking at a side-by-side demo, but in real-world viewing of only one or the other, I doubt many people could tell which one they were looking at.
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post #90 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by connery58 View Post
What current E-Shift projector do you feel gives the best picture quality in relation to black levels, HDR, and WCG?
I think the JVC projectors are best in terms of black level. For HDR and WCG, I suspect the JVCs and Epsons are probably about the same.
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Closed Thread Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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