Ask Me Anything: Home-Theater Projection - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ryan the Gamer View Post
Are there any emerging technologies in projection regarding bulbs or otherwise that will allow projectors to begin to rival the nits a flat panel can output so that projectors can fully embrace hdr in the home?
I seriously doubt we will ever see home-theater projectors that throw enough light to create a picture with a peak brightness of 500 or 1000 nits on a reasonably sized screen. MicroLED video walls can do it, but they are prohibitively expensive—for now. Hopefully, this technology will come down in price some day, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
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post #92 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by talldrink67 View Post
So back in the mid-2000s I was looking at getting a projector and screen for my future home theater room. I was told by a salesman that unless you get a good screen, there is no point in investing in a nice projector. He actually said he would recommend investing in a higher end screen rather than a higher end projector if the budget was limited.
Thoughts?
I agree that investing in a good screen is critical for getting the most out of any projector. It's the canvas on which the projector paints its picture. But I disagree that you need to spend more on the screen than the projector if your budget is limited. There are several good, inexpensive screens out there from companies such as Monoprice, Silver Ticket, and Cirrus.
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post #93 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
I have an Epson 5040UBe projector and it is mounted very close to the ceiling. I have the lens memories set for 16X9, 2.35:1, and 2.40:1 aspect ratios. My screen, a blank wall with masking curtains, is positioned where the Epson's lens center is not parallel to the top of the screen. When I re-position the widescreen lens positions to the 16X9 lens position, the settings don't always put the picture in the exact place on the wall that I need. Is it because I have the projector mounted too high to the ceiling, or do you think there could be another reason why this happens. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Andrew J. Riley (Wolfie)
The lens memories on relatively inexpensive projectors (notice I said "relatively"!) are not perfectly accurate every time; the lens mechanism has a tolerance. I don't know if it would be more accurate if the projector was mounted lower; it might, especially if the mechanism is working at the end of its range where it's mounted now. If the projector was mounted lower, the lens mechanism would be working more in the middle of its range of motion, which might allow it to be more accurate. However, it will still not be perfectly aligned every time.
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post #94 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tommyknocker2121 View Post
Do you see HLG actually becoming a format widely utilized by broadcast television in the US or anywhere else for that matter?
Yes; it's already being used in Europe, and I suspect it will be adopted elsewhere. For one thing, it's easier to work with in a real-time broadcasting environment than HDR10 or Dolby Vision.
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post #95 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rha1211 View Post
I have a couple questions.

How good are the processors in 4k projectors?

Would I be better off getting a mid range 4k projector with processor, or rolling the money from the processor into a more expensive 4k projector?

Thanks
The processors in most modern projectors are quite good, but outboard processors are generally better. On the other hand, a more expensive projector is likely to have a better lens, which is extremely important. On balance, I'd say a better lens is more important than a better processor.
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post #96 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
Does the difference between glass and plastic lenses make a difference?
Yes, it makes a big difference. The lens is the final arbiter of resolution, and glass is certainly better than plastic at maintaining resolution. However, it's more expensive as well...natch!
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post #97 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Twiceborn View Post
Are there any projectors that offer the same performance as a OLED monitor?
No consumer projector I know of can produce an image nearly as bright as an OLED, at least on a reasonably sized screen, and none can achieve the 0 black levels of an OLED.
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post #98 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Starlordtheoutlaw View Post
Projectors often sound to the average consumer as something too high difficult or too technical for them to do. Do you think that projection in the home will ever leave the home theater niche and get to a wider audience?
That is the holy grail of many projector manufacturers. In particular, Epson is aiming for that very market. However, projection systems will always be more difficult to set up than flat panels, so I'm not sure that projection will ever be mainstream.
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post #99 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AlanAbby View Post
What is the best screen type for 3D projection?

Thanks!!
If the projector uses active 3D (glasses with batteries, IR emitter in the projector), any screen will work; get the best screen you can for 2D, and 3D will work just fine. Of course, 3D is a lot dimmer than 2D, so if you watch mostly 3D, you might consider a high-gain screen, even though that will exhibit hot-spotting and poor off-axis performance.

If the projector uses passive polarized glasses, only a polarization-preserving silver screen will work. But this is rare in home-theater projectors these days, so probably not of much concern.
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post #100 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Do you think projection systems both for home and commercial cinema will become obsolete once large screen micro-led displays become cheap and mainstream?

If so, how long before we go to a commercial cinema and watch 8K DolbyVison video on a micro-led display instead of a big projection screen?
The key phrase here is "once large screen micro-led displays become cheap and mainstream." Large-screen microLED displays are awesome, way better than any projector IMO. But when will they become cheap and mainstream? Not for many years, if at all. As far as I know, there's exactly one commercial-sized microLED display deployed as of today, and that's in South Korea. It will be years before it's deployed in a reasonable number of commercial cinemas, and many years after that—if ever—before it's inexpensive enough for most home-theater installations.
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post #101 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bluskinsfan21 View Post
I have a new Epson hc4000 and a planned mounting of about 16 ft. Is there a significant benefit to a curved screen versus a conventional flat fixed screen?
I don't think so. As Joel mentioned during the AMA, he's installing fewer and fewer curved screens these days. IMO, there's no real benefit to curved screens except at very large sizes (that is, commercial-cinema sizes), when geometric distortions become evident.
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post #102 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by akosoft View Post
Why are home cinema projectors not native 2:40?
Good question! I assume it's because the HD and UHD standards are 16:9 (1.78:1), so imager manufacturers like TI, Sony, and Epson focused their efforts on that aspect ratio. The Barco Loki Cinemascope is 5120x2160 pixels (2.37:1), but it's price tag is in the six-figure range.
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post #103 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darenwh View Post
I am wanting to build a home theater with a projector when I purchase my next house (1 - 2 years out). Is there a difference in preference for screens according to the brightness of the room that the screen will be used in? Also, how well do the Faux-K projectors work vs true 4K and vs HD projectors? Last, any idea when we will see laser based projectors in the home market?
If the room is bright due to uncontrolled ambient light and/or light-colored walls and ceiling, an ambient light-rejecting screen is best. If the room has complete control of ambient light and the walls are dark and neutral, a unity-gain white screen is best.

Overall, faux-K projectors work quite well, though resolution isn't the most important parameter IMO. Black level and contrast are more important IMO. Plus, you won't find an HDR-capable HD projector; the only HDR-capable models are faux-K or 4K.

Laser-Illuminated projectors are already in the home market from Epson, JVC, Sony, and others.
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post #104 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NSCTripleAgent View Post
What is the long-term viability of projectors despite the advances in size and quality in other display technologies? is this something a relative newbie wants to get into?
It depends. Projection is best at replicating the cinema experience, and it is best at providing a very large picture at reasonable cost. But it's a bit more complicated than buying a flat panel, taking it out of the box, and turning it on. (Of course, to get the best out of a flat panel or projector, it needs to be calibrated, or at least the basic picture controls need to be optimized.) If you want a really big picture (~100" or more) without spending five figures, a projector is the only way to go. If you want a picture in the 75" or less range, a flat panel is the better choice. But the viability of projection is just fine; there's no need to worry that it will become obsolete any time soon.
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post #105 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by paligap View Post
Are there any current or upcoming projectors that feature all of the following:
  • Excellent motion handling
  • Non-problematic 3D rendering
  • True 4K with HDR and 18Gbps input
  • Cost less than $5000
Not that I know of. The only true 4K projectors are from Sony and the JVC DLA-RS4500, and all of them cost well over $5000.
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post #106 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JSKMDWK View Post
I am currently using a 1080p projector with auto lens memory (Panasonic AE8000). I am considering moving up to a JVC DLA-X550R projector that accepts 4k signals, but I realize is not true 4k. Am I better off waiting for a true 4k projector to come down in price or make the jump now?

Also, how long till we are seeing 8k projectors in the consumer home theater market?
For me, having HDR capabilities is more important that faux-K, which makes the DLA-X550R very attractive now (though I would go for the newer DLA-X570R). The Optoma UHD60 is less than $3000 and can be said to be "true" 4K (its DLP chip has 4 million micromirrors that are quickly oscillated back and forth to produce an effective resolution of 8 million pixels). But it's a single-chip DLP model, so you might see rainbows. And while I don't know from first-hand experience, I would expect its black level to be substantially higher than the JVC. I don't think we'll see many low-cost true 4K projectors any time soon, so I'd say go for it.
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post #107 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaveMcLain View Post
I'm new to the whole projector game and one problem I have is that in the room I currently use for home theater if I put in a 120 inch screen it will block the front speakers. Moving the speakers is not possible so how much of a compromise will it make to the sound? How much will an AT screen help and how much attenuation could be compensated for with volume and or EQ?
An AT (acoustically transparent) screen will work just fine without compromising the sound much at all. In general, a woven AT screen requires less EQ compensation than a perforated screen, and the speakers can be located closer to the back of a woven screen.
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post #108 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edfowler View Post
Why do most people it seems prefer a brighter image over one with a lower black floor? I used to be in the latter camp now I am leaning towards sacrificing black levels for a much brighter picture.
I think it's human nature. This is one reason that plasma TVs didn't last; they couldn't compete with LCDs in the brightness wars on a retail show floor. I much prefer lower black levels over higher peak brightness, because it gives the picture more perceived contrast. Also, I watch in a totally light-controlled room with neutral gray walls.
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post #109 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by geared4me View Post
Is it possible for a laser projector to have reference level blacks?
Possible, yes. Easy, no. The Dolby Vision projectors in Dolby Cinemas achieve reference-level blacks, but I have yet to see a consumer laser projector do it.
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post #110 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
For me, having HDR capabilities is more important that faux-K, which makes the DLA-X550R very attractive now (though I would go for the newer DLA-X570R). The Optoma UHD60 is less than $3000 and can be said to be "true" 4K (its DLP chip has 4 million micromirrors that are quickly oscillated back and forth to produce an effective resolution of 8 million pixels). But it's a single-chip DLP model, so you might see rainbows. And while I don't know from first-hand experience, I would expect its black level to be substantially higher than the JVC. I don't think we'll see many low-cost true 4K projectors any time soon, so I'd say go for it.
You know that scene in Star Trek when the Captain says, "Eject the core!" and the Engineer says, "I already did." This is like that. I found the JVC X550R open box for less than half of MSRP so I had to pull the trigger. Looking good so far.
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Would I have stayed happy not knowing how good it could be? -- My first theater in print -- My first build- Mocha Theater Construction
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post #111 of 124 Old 08-24-2017, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by camberry View Post
Is HDR projection a different standard than it is from backlit displays?

Considering the amount of light needed to come back to the viewer to get true HDR , I feel that backlit displays have the advantage, although I much prefer the look of reflected projection image myself :-)
Great question! Consumer projectors support the same HDR10 format that flat panels use, so presumably, they follow the PQ curve as far as they can. However, there is a big difference: Each flat panel has a well-defined peak brightness and contrast, whereas the peak brightness and contrast of a projector depends on its light output, the screen, and the room. As a result, there are no standards for HDR projection. And HDR on a projector is not as striking as it is on a flat panel, because a projected image is much less bright than a flat panel, no matter what. Still, in a completely light-controlled, dark-colored room, it's pretty good—and Dolby Vision in a Dolby Cinema can be really good, depending on the content.
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post #112 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'd consider any projector like that broken, and seek an immediate replacement, that sounds like an anomaly.
I think they would be within the manufacturer's tolerance. Some people get cine4home to pre-screen their purchase of a JVC projector to make sure they get a good one and to have Cine4home pre calibrate it. Cine4home do not say what percentage of JVC projectors fail to meet their standards and what percentage are good.

dead, permanently on or off pixels
"JVC officially accepts no liability, up to a number of 200 (!) Pixel errors (no matter which color or whether always luminous or always black), but declares this upper limit as technically "normal". This number does not seem acceptable to any home theater fan, but in practice it is never achieved in practice. Nevertheless, the manufacturer does not guarantee pixel-freeness!""Many X500 have one or two blue glowing pixel errors in black, some light, others dark.""In the X700 we tested, however, no pixel errors have been observed. Apparently the additional panel selection makes itself felt positively here."

bright corners,
"Critical large-scale fans criticize the new X-series also increasingly bright corners, which lighten the black value in the extreme edge areas somewhat. These bright corners are not a new phenomenon, but technically available for all (!) LCOS projectors. They are caused by the bonding of the panels with the silicon chip. However, due to the extremely high luminous efficacy of the new series (see below), they will be somewhat more pronounced than before." "As a rule, however, these corners are so weakly pronounced that they are not visible in the film operation. Devices which do not comply with this standard are sorted out."

streaking of white on black.
"In recent years, the X-Series has consistently attracted attention during our quality checks, which showed too much streak formation with strong contrast transitions, which we consistently patterned." "This has not changed in the current generation, all the models we viewed showed a slight streak formation, which becomes visible in black text in front of black background at close range. We can, however, give an all-clear: they do not fall from normal viewing distances. Outliers with too clear streaks we look out."

some vary by 290K across the screen
"Most of the X500 / X700 are within the tolerable range of <290K deviation, but often use it. In other words: outliers who exceed these limits (and thus also become visible in films) are very rare in JVC, but devices with almost perfectly homogeneous color temperature are also rare."

and some having a green primary so far off the standards they cannot be calibrated.
"the problems of some X500: Their native green point is too yellowish and therefore can not be balanced despite color management. A perfectly standard calibration is not possible with the affected devices."

Then there are JVC DILA projectors that suffer from gamma drooping after several hundred hours use. And need recalibration with JVC software and a sensor to update their firmware.

DILA is still uncommon in commercial theatres and use in film color mastering. Where DLP appears to still be the norm. Another issue with DILA as far as color mastering appears to be inconsistency overtime of colors, both inconsistency each time the projectors are turned on and overtime while they are on.
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post #113 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I seriously doubt we will ever see home-theater projectors that throw enough light to create a picture with a peak brightness of 500 or 1000 nits on a reasonably sized screen. MicroLED video walls can do it, but they are prohibitively expensive—for now. Hopefully, this technology will come down in price some day, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
If we do, we better bring our sunglasses and sun block into our theaters.
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post #114 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If we do, we better bring our sunglasses and sun block into our theaters.
Don't fear the light. If I turn out the room lights and sit really close to a 4K HDR TV, I enjoy what I see. I'd love to have the same effect in a home theater rig.

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post #115 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
I think they would be within the manufacturer's tolerance. Some people get cine4home to pre-screen their purchase of a JVC projector to make sure they get a good one and to have Cine4home pre calibrate it. Cine4home do not say what percentage of JVC projectors fail to meet their standards and what percentage are good.

dead, permanently on or off pixels
"JVC officially accepts no liability, up to a number of 200 (!) Pixel errors (no matter which color or whether always luminous or always black), but declares this upper limit as technically "normal". This number does not seem acceptable to any home theater fan, but in practice it is never achieved in practice. Nevertheless, the manufacturer does not guarantee pixel-freeness!""Many X500 have one or two blue glowing pixel errors in black, some light, others dark.""In the X700 we tested, however, no pixel errors have been observed. Apparently the additional panel selection makes itself felt positively here."

bright corners,
"Critical large-scale fans criticize the new X-series also increasingly bright corners, which lighten the black value in the extreme edge areas somewhat. These bright corners are not a new phenomenon, but technically available for all (!) LCOS projectors. They are caused by the bonding of the panels with the silicon chip. However, due to the extremely high luminous efficacy of the new series (see below), they will be somewhat more pronounced than before." "As a rule, however, these corners are so weakly pronounced that they are not visible in the film operation. Devices which do not comply with this standard are sorted out."

streaking of white on black.
"In recent years, the X-Series has consistently attracted attention during our quality checks, which showed too much streak formation with strong contrast transitions, which we consistently patterned." "This has not changed in the current generation, all the models we viewed showed a slight streak formation, which becomes visible in black text in front of black background at close range. We can, however, give an all-clear: they do not fall from normal viewing distances. Outliers with too clear streaks we look out."

some vary by 290K across the screen
"Most of the X500 / X700 are within the tolerable range of <290K deviation, but often use it. In other words: outliers who exceed these limits (and thus also become visible in films) are very rare in JVC, but devices with almost perfectly homogeneous color temperature are also rare."

and some having a green primary so far off the standards they cannot be calibrated.
"the problems of some X500: Their native green point is too yellowish and therefore can not be balanced despite color management. A perfectly standard calibration is not possible with the affected devices."

Then there are JVC DILA projectors that suffer from gamma drooping after several hundred hours use. And need recalibration with JVC software and a sensor to update their firmware.

DILA is still uncommon in commercial theatres and use in film color mastering. Where DLP appears to still be the norm. Another issue with DILA as far as color mastering appears to be inconsistency overtime of colors, both inconsistency each time the projectors are turned on and overtime while they are on.
I think a good question would be what does Cine4home do with the projectors that do not pass his inspection, if they are within JVC's spec? If there were very many of them, that would be a big problem, so I doubt the number is very large.
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post #116 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Don't fear the light. If I turn out the room lights and sit really close to a 4K HDR TV, I enjoy what I see.
I should have used one of these: , since I was kidding. If the brightness is just used for spectral highlights, you will be fine. A sunrise at that brightness on a large screen, like three to four times larger than a typical flat panel, in the dark, would make you squint, but then again, realism is the goal and that is what you would do in real life.
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post #117 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 09:10 AM
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What questions if any, should have been asked that we missed?
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post #118 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by film113 View Post
Is it feasible for 4k projectors to utilize passive 3D instead of active?
It is feasible, but I know of no 4K consumer projectors that implement this type of 3D. It's possible to make a DIY passive-3D system using two projectors; see this thread for more.
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post #119 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craigers01 View Post
With the prices of 4K projectors so high, and the prices of traditional, non-projection television prices dropping rapidly, what things should be considered when choosing between a projector, or a giant-sized flat-panel LED, etc.?

I have a dedicated theater with a 100" screen. I can get an 80" (or so) LED television for about the same prices as a simulated 4K projector. I feel like in 1 year, the prices for the same size may converge.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks!
Craig
When choosing between a projector and flat panel, the main things to consider are screen size and brightness requirements. Yes, the prices of 75" LCD flat panels are dropping, but 100" flat panels are still very expensive, much more than many projector systems. Plus, projectors can produce an image much larger than 100" if needed, and for no more than a 100" image (other than the cost of a larger screen). In your case, keep in mind that 100" is quite a bit larger than even 80". On the other hand, flat panels are much brighter than any projector, so it you need high brightness to combat ambient light, a flat panel will probably be a better (though smaller) choice.
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post #120 of 124 Old 08-25-2017, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnyphillips View Post
I use a Windows 7 HTPC [Intel HD4600 Graphics processor] in conjunction with a Panasonic PT AE8000 projector and an Elite Screens Aeon 135-inch 16:9 4K screen.

What is the best way to go about calibrating the HTPC's display settings and the projectors to achieve the highest quality output.
Since I'm not a PC guy, I asked Joel about this. He said to set the PC's video output to 16-235, not 0-255, and turn reverse telecine on. Otherwise, do not adjust the PC's video controls.

If the HTPC has a Blu-ray drive, use a setup disc like Spears & Munsil's HD Benchmark to adjust the projector's basic picture controls. If the PC does not have a Blu-ray drive, you'll need to play setup content from the hard drive. My first thought in that regard is AVS HD 709, a free downloadable setup program available here. Use the MP4 version for playback from the hard disk; the other versions are intended to be burned to recordable Blu-ray or DVD discs.
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