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post #781 of 2609 Old 02-15-2019, 08:20 PM
 
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BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP

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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
Hey Dave, I think you are right on both relative to the coverage. I will check again on the next calibration. I remember getting 91% P3 coverage relative to volume but less gamut coverage. I believe those are the right terms. There are a few different P3 gamut’s so sometimes it is hard to talk apples to apples. In a qualitative sense, the unit seems to have good representation of the P3 color space relative to my filtered Sony which is 100% DCI P3.

OK thanks. I knew I saw that number somewhere so hopefully I’m not going totally crazy.

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I’m going to contact the distributor locally and see where I can see an LK970 on display and see if it could be my new projector.

Make sure to also try to see the newer LK990 since you’re going through the trouble anyway. At least you can see if it’s worth the extra coin for the upgrade.

Speaking of, does anyone else think that maybe the LK990 is really just an LK970 with upgraded FW, adding in 3D, HDR and tweaking the internal driver numbers so it outputs 1,000 more lumens (in bright mode which I don’t think anyone here will use anyway)?
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post #782 of 2609 Old 02-15-2019, 09:54 PM
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Dave- The one owner impressions for the LK990 in the thread wasn't very good and he got rid of the machine. Hence my trying to find the LK970 which may be a more mature, firmware wise, machine.
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post #783 of 2609 Old 02-16-2019, 11:09 AM
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As far as I know, Anthony already got a new replacement LK990. The original one he got may have some issues, hardware or software, not sure. Let’s just wait for a while and see what he’ll discover
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post #784 of 2609 Old 02-16-2019, 11:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
Dave- The one owner impressions for the LK990 in the thread wasn't very good and he got rid of the machine. Hence my trying to find the LK970 which may be a more mature, firmware wise, machine.

I think he got an early version with issues. The LK970 isn’t what I would call “mature” in terms of firmware updates. It has only had one since release and I was told it is one small bug fix that only affects an extremely small minority, and even less for those using it for Home Theater. This is why I didn’t even bother taking extra time for them to flash my FW before shipping the one I have here to me.
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post #785 of 2609 Old 02-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
Hey Dave, I think you are right on both relative to the coverage. I will check again on the next calibration. I remember getting 91% P3 coverage relative to volume but less gamut coverage. I believe those are the right terms. There are a few different P3 gamut’s so sometimes it is hard to talk apples to apples. In a qualitative sense, the unit seems to have good representation of the P3 color space relative to my filtered Sony which is 100% DCI P3.

OK thanks. I knew I saw that number somewhere so hopefully I’m not going totally crazy.

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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
I’m going to contact the distributor locally and see where I can see an LK970 on display and see if it could be my new projector.

Make sure to also try to see the newer LK990 since you’re going through the trouble anyway. At least you can see if it’s worth the extra coin for the upgrade.

Speaking of, does anyone else think that maybe the LK990 is really just an LK970 with upgraded FW, adding in 3D, HDR and tweaking the internal driver numbers so it outputs 1,000 more lumens (in bright mode which I don’t think anyone here will use anyway)?
I think it is exactly that, the Lk990 just looks like it couldve been a firmware update for the Lk970 and they are trying to sell it as a more expensive new unit, its a shame the 970 doesnt recieve any updates, at least they could add Smarteco mode which would help the dynamic dimming for better blacks.

DAVE if its possible could you plz let us know on what are you working on with ur harpervision2 version, whay kind of filters ur trying and how is it going till now, u know kind of an update.

You are the reason i bought the 970 and cant thank you enough, i m always looking at ways to get the best out of it and u seem to be testing just that.

I m having some silver/ALR/grey screen samples coming soon, will post pictures on what works best with the 970.

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post #786 of 2609 Old 02-16-2019, 04:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
I think it is exactly that, the Lk990 just looks like it couldve been a firmware update for the Lk970 and they are trying to sell it as a more expensive new unit, its a shame the 970 doesnt recieve any updates, at least they could add Smarteco mode which would help the dynamic dimming for better blacks.

DAVE if its possible could you plz let us know on what are you working on with ur harpervision2 version, whay kind of filters ur trying and how is it going till now, u know kind of an update.

You are the reason i bought the 970 and cant thank you enough, i m always looking at ways to get the best out of it and u seem to be testing just that.

I m having some silver/ALR/grey screen samples coming soon, will post pictures on what works best with the 970.

I really don’t have any updates since the initial info I posted and after pulling all the arrows out of my back for doing so. I haven’t had time to mess with the filters anymore because I also got a Radiance Pro and have trying to get that working well to no avail so far and it’s taken up all my little time I’ve had in there. I’m having serious EDID issues and the Lumagen keeps blanking out, even when I put the HDFURY Vertex in the chain and it’s really pissing me off.

Maybe I’ll try to pick my contact’s brain to see if it’s only FW and maybe if they can flash my LK970 with the LK990 FW.
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post #787 of 2609 Old 02-17-2019, 07:45 AM
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I think someone already pointed out that the 970 draws 595W max and the 990 draws 690W max. I'm not sure if a firmware update could make this happen, but I guess it's possible that they actually have the same lasers and the 990 just allows them to run harder. Seems more likely to me that the 990 has more hardware laser power, but unfortunately I can't confirm this...
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post #788 of 2609 Old 02-17-2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by briangreen View Post
I think someone already pointed out that the 970 draws 595W max and the 990 draws 690W max....I guess it's possible that they actually have the same lasers and the 990 just allows them to run harder...
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post #789 of 2609 Old 02-18-2019, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briangreen View Post
I think someone already pointed out that the 970 draws 595W max and the 990 draws 690W max. I'm not sure if a firmware update could make this happen, but I guess it's possible that they actually have the same lasers and the 990 just allows them to run harder. Seems more likely to me that the 990 has more hardware laser power, but unfortunately I can't confirm this...
Is that via manual or measurement? Just asking as BenQ has made spec errors in past
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post #790 of 2609 Old 02-18-2019, 08:28 AM
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This was via the spec sheets in the owners manuals. The 990 is also listed at a full kilogram heavier, so I think it's safe to assume there are some hardware differences, most likely related to lasers. I don't think it's a coincidence that the power consumption is listed around 20% higher in line with spec'd lumen output.

Again tho, I'm not an expert nor have I seen either of these units in person. We should still try to get a BenQ rep to confirm this directly.

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post #791 of 2609 Old 02-24-2019, 06:16 PM
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Hey does anyone in Portland Oregon area have a BenQ LK970 or 990 in a light controlled room and want to demo it?

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post #792 of 2609 Old 02-24-2019, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Hey does anyone in Portland Oregon area have a BenQ LK970 or 990 in a light controlled room and want to demo it?
And if so I'd like to see it too

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post #793 of 2609 Old 02-25-2019, 11:49 AM
 
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BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Hey does anyone in Portland Oregon area have a BenQ LK970 or 990 in a light controlled room and want to demo it?
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Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post
And if so I'd like to see it too
@Kris Deering is in the Seattle area which isn’t too unbelievably far from Portland. He’s supposed to be getting an LK970 to play with, so maybe he will let let you guys come up to see it?

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post #794 of 2609 Old 02-25-2019, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
@Kris Deering is in the Seattle area which isn’t too unbelievably far from Portland. He’s supposed to be getting an LK970 to play with, so maybe he will let let guys come up to see it?
Good call, I bought a MoPop membership earlier this month when I was up there so I intend to go up more frequently this year. If Kris is willing I'd love to see the 9060 too when he has these in.

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post #795 of 2609 Old 02-25-2019, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post
Good call, I bought a MoPop membership earlier this month when I was up there so I intend to go up more frequently this year. If Kris is willing I'd love to see the 9060 too when he has these in.
dave i got an FL-d filter to try it out, sadly it was damaged ad causing significant blurring in some part of the filter, but i tried to see if i can calibrate using it, i tried bright mode which is low on red, but the only way to fix the grey scale is to lower red and blue after i put the filter which boost both of them and i ll end up losing 50+% lumens, raising the green doesnt do anything . i m not sure if i m doing something wrong .

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post #796 of 2609 Old 02-25-2019, 01:54 PM
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I'll be interested to see if an FL-day does much to the gamut. When I tried it in the past they seemed to mostly cut green, when I think what you really want to do to gain gamut coverage is cut yellow light, which is what is responsible for pulling the primaries inwards I believe. So you're really after a yellow notch filter.
Lots of discussion in here:
http://www.loreti.it/Download/PDF/DM...CinemaTalk.pdf

What kind of filters have you been using @Dave Harper ?

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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'll be interested to see if an FL-day does much to the gamut. When I tried it in the past they seemed to mostly cut green, when I think what you really want to do to gain gamut coverage is cut yellow light, which is what is responsible for pulling the primaries inwards I believe. So you're really after a yellow notch filter.
Lots of discussion in here:
http://www.loreti.it/Download/PDF/DM...CinemaTalk.pdf

What kind of filters have you been using @Dave Harper ?
Yellow Notch Filter is how most pro projector brands like Christie etc attain high p3 coverage on a design that usually is capable of only rec709 w/o filter. Although those designs are usually RGB, not sure exactly best filter for RGBY like LK970.

Side effect of YNF is often 20% light loss.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
@Kris Deering is in the Seattle area which isn’t too unbelievably far from Portland. He’s supposed to be getting an LK970 to play with, so maybe he will let let you guys come up to see it?
Unfortunately, too far for me It's about a 3.5 hour one-way.
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post #800 of 2609 Old 02-26-2019, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Yellow Notch Filter is how most pro projector brands like Christie etc attain high p3 coverage on a design that usually is capable of only rec709 w/o filter. Although those designs are usually RGB, not sure exactly best filter for RGBY like LK970.

Side effect of YNF is often 20% light loss.
The yellow notch filter originates in lamps as far as I can tell. In DCI applications it appears they actually use a filter which passes tightly defined RGB and blocks cyan and yellow it seems (see that paper I linked, which is comparatively ancient - they refer to a 6kW Xenon lamp). RGB lasers shouldn't need filtering as their primaries are already pure spikes if looked at with a spectroradiometer. However, the light hitting the phosphor doesn't generate spikes for green to red, it generates a curve, which has yellow light which is inconvenient for pure primaries.

A projector whose colour mixing relies on yellow light being displayed might react in interesting ways though to yellow filtering. Only measurements and analysis could really show what is going on.

I don't think that JVC use the cyan filtering in their internal filters from what I've seen during my testing, it is just yellow. You can see this as cubes often end up with an interesting cut having to be applied to cyan digitally.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
dave i got an FL-d filter to try it out, sadly it was damaged ad causing significant blurring in some part of the filter, but i tried to see if i can calibrate using it, i tried bright mode which is low on red, but the only way to fix the grey scale is to lower red and blue after i put the filter which boost both of them and i ll end up losing 50+% lumens, raising the green doesnt do anything . i m not sure if i m doing something wrong .

I have never tried an FL-D filter so I can’t really say. I know member @Gary Lightfoot is the one who educated me the most on their use so maybe he can assist here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'll be interested to see if an FL-day does much to the gamut. When I tried it in the past they seemed to mostly cut green, when I think what you really want to do to gain gamut coverage is cut yellow light, which is what is responsible for pulling the primaries inwards I believe. So you're really after a yellow notch filter.

Lots of discussion in here:

http://www.loreti.it/Download/PDF/DM...CinemaTalk.pdf



What kind of filters have you been using @Dave Harper ?

I’m just trying some off the shelf red and green enhancement filters, but they too have been cutting too much light so not sure if I can find a mode that makes them worthwhile. I’m going to keep playing with them to see if I can though. They really helped expand the gamut, but killed the light output. I’m going to try to use torch mode with them to see if I can tame it down while maintaining the wider color gamut.
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post #802 of 2609 Old 02-26-2019, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I have never tried an FL-D filter so I can’t really say. I know member @Gary Lightfoot is the one who educated me the most on their use so maybe he can assist here?
I think I asked earlier to see what the RGBs look like when maxed out to see what colours are greatest to get an idea of what kind of filter may work best. As bobof said, the FLD usually works best with an excess of green/blue but if the pj has an excess of just blue, a yellow filter may be a better choice, but we need to see what the pj is doing.

Maxing out the RGBs and then using a swatch of filters to find one that balances them the best before using the cuts and gains is one way of finding the best filter to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I’m just trying some off the shelf red and green enhancement filters, but they too have been cutting too much light so not sure if I can find a mode that makes them worthwhile. I’m going to keep playing with them to see if I can though. They really helped expand the gamut, but killed the light output. I’m going to try to use torch mode with them to see if I can tame it down while maintaining the wider color gamut.
I think most filters will cut the lumens by 50% so you rely on getting some back by increasing the green for example. With the Sony 40, Cine4home managed to claw back all the lumens to end up with the same as without the filter, but gained better blacks and more contrast. Their 'Power filter' looks like an FLD but may be slightly different and better optimised for the lamp they're using it with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I think I asked earlier to see what the RGBs look like when maxed out to see what colours are greatest to get an idea of what kind of filter may work best. As bobof said, the FLD usually works best with an excess of green/blue but if the pj has an excess of just blue, a yellow filter may be a better choice, but we need to see what the pj is doing.

Maxing out the RGBs and then using a swatch of filters to find one that balances them the best before using the cuts and gains is one way of finding the best filter to use.



I think most filters will cut the lumens by 50% so you rely on getting some back by increasing the green for example. With the Sony 40, Cine4home managed to claw back all the lumens to end up with the same as without the filter, but gained better blacks and more contrast. Their 'Power filter' looks like an FLD but may be slightly different and better optimised for the lamp they're using it with.
He had to have given up something to get all the light back. Perhaps higher de's?
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post #804 of 2609 Old 02-26-2019, 08:51 AM
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He had to have given up something to get all the light back. Perhaps higher de's?
I don't believe so, as they always calibrate to D65 with the filter in place:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...40_es_test.htm

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post #805 of 2609 Old 02-26-2019, 09:31 AM
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My guess from the BenQ data is that yellow is greatest followed by green then red.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I have never tried an FL-D filter so I can’t really say. I know member @Gary Lightfoot is the one who educated me the most on their use so maybe he can assist here?
I think I asked earlier to see what the RGBs look like when maxed out to see what colours are greatest to get an idea of what kind of filter may work best. As bobof said, the FLD usually works best with an excess of green/blue but if the pj has an excess of just blue, a yellow filter may be a better choice, but we need to see what the pj is doing.

Maxing out the RGBs and then using a swatch of filters to find one that balances them the best before using the cuts and gains is one way of finding the best filter to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I’m just trying some off the shelf red and green enhancement filters, but they too have been cutting too much light so not sure if I can find a mode that makes them worthwhile. I’m going to keep playing with them to see if I can though. They really helped expand the gamut, but killed the light output. I’m going to try to use torch mode with them to see if I can tame it down while maintaining the wider color gamut.
I think most filters will cut the lumens by 50% so you rely on getting some back by increasing the green for example. With the Sony 40, Cine4home managed to claw back all the lumens to end up with the same as without the filter, but gained better blacks and more contrast. Their 'Power filter' looks like an FLD but may be slightly different and better optimised for the lamp they're using it with.
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post #806 of 2609 Old 02-26-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I don't believe so, as they always calibrate to D65 with the filter in place:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...40_es_test.htm
Ekki has gone into service menu's and gotten higher lumens and did not talk about what was given up either, but it was D65 that was compromised to get those higher lumens. I just don't believe nothing was compromised. Adding a filter that cut 50% of lumens and able to get it all back, without compromise, with improved contrast and black levels. Sounds like a fairy tale.
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post #807 of 2609 Old 02-26-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Ekki has gone into service menu's and gotten higher lumens and did not talk about what was given up either, but it was D65 that was compromised to get those higher lumens. I just don't believe nothing was compromised. Adding a filter that cut 50% of lumens and able to get it all back, without compromise, with improved contrast and black levels. Sounds like a fairy tale.

This guy achieve something not a million miles away from Ekki's own results using standard filters including FL-Day IIRC, so with a more optically tuned filter it may be possible without veering too far from D65, if at all:

https://www.chromapure.co.uk/details...=158&type=news



I'll be interested in seeing what @Cine4Home has to say about how he achieved his numbers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #808 of 2609 Old 02-26-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Ekki has gone into service menu's and gotten higher lumens and did not talk about what was given up either, but it was D65 that was compromised to get those higher lumens. I just don't believe nothing was compromised. Adding a filter that cut 50% of lumens and able to get it all back, without compromise, with improved contrast and black levels. Sounds like a fairy tale.
Many lumens / much panel dynamic range is already wasted in projectors because the lamp native whitepoint is far away from D65 - hence the difference between calibrated and uncalibrated lumens. A filter which perfectly attenuated just the right yellow/green excess light to bring the lamp back to D65 would lose you uncalibrated lumens, but they weren't useable lumens because they were between D65 and the native white point of the projector - ie you'd have thrown them away, anyway. I think you'd be very lucky to find exactly the right filter to incur absolutely no losses though.

You can see this if you engage profile off mode on the JVC - which exposes the native panel response. The white point is miles north of D65. All that light is wasted anyway, so it wouldn't matter if it was lost in a filter or lost in a calibration. The benefit of losing it in a filter is that the black point also drops so you get access to the whole contrast ratio of the native panel response, instead of the contrast ratio of the calibrated panel response (which is less, because you're clipping some of the panel dynamic range to correct for the white point).

Now I've worked out how to get the filter on with profile off on the JVC I'll do some panel native filter tests for D65 calibration on my X7900. I think it will be surprising how little light the filter really loses.
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post #809 of 2609 Old 02-27-2019, 12:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I think I asked earlier to see what the RGBs look like when maxed out to see what colours are greatest to get an idea of what kind of filter may work best. As bobof said, the FLD usually works best with an excess of green/blue but if the pj has an excess of just blue, a yellow filter may be a better choice, but we need to see what the pj is doing.



Maxing out the RGBs and then using a swatch of filters to find one that balances them the best before using the cuts and gains is one way of finding the best filter to use.



I think most filters will cut the lumens by 50% so you rely on getting some back by increasing the green for example. With the Sony 40, Cine4home managed to claw back all the lumens to end up with the same as without the filter, but gained better blacks and more contrast. Their 'Power filter' looks like an FLD but may be slightly different and better optimised for the lamp they're using it with.

Sorry I don’t recall you asking that, but I’m sure you did.

The green is easily the highest, followed by blue.

The filters I am trying ate up 50+% of the light. I do need to play some more to see if I can get some back.
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post #810 of 2609 Old 02-27-2019, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Sorry I don’t recall you asking that, but I’m sure you did.

The green is easily the highest, followed by blue.

The filters I am trying ate up 50+% of the light. I do need to play some more to see if I can get some back.
Hi Dave,

I was referring to someone else who I asked earlier to show me what the RGBs looked like when they were maxed out - by raising the RGB gains you will see usually see the green has the most energy, followed by blue, and then red, but to be sure, it would be useful to see the results via calibration software so we know what the 'raw' output of the lamp is.

Most projectors have a dynamic or vivid mode which is a long way from a calibrated setting and is the mode that usually gives the most lumens. That's the setting that often works the best with a filter.

When you calibrate a pj to D65, it's not unusual to lose 40% of the lumens and contrast compared to one of the projectors brighter video modes (like 'dynamic' or 'vivid') , but when you do that, the black level remains the same - reducing the cuts are what cost you lumen and contrast output, and most of that is caused by reducing the green.

By increasing the RGBs to their max, you obviously make the image even less appealing for video usage but can end up with more lumens and contrast than the 'vivid' mode for example - you don't always have to go into the service menu to get more lumens.

So, lets say that in 'vivid' mode you have 1000 lumens, and 1000:1 on/off CR. When you calibrate to D65 you end up with around 600 lumens and 600:1 CR but the same black level. By increasing the RGBs to max, you may end up with even more lumens and contrast than vivid mode gave you, with green and blue giving even more energy than in the vivid mode - lets say 1400 lumens and 1400:1 CR. By adding the FL-Day you will cut the image to 700 lumens but still with 1400:1 CR. Because red has been boosted and is closer to green and blue, you don't have to reduce the cuts so much, so may end up with 600 lumens (same as without the filter) but 1300:1 on/off CR.

That's the theory and a best case scenario - usually you don't end up getting all the lumens back that you had lost with the filter, but quite often it's not a big loss - as you can see from the results Chromapure achieved, he only lost around 10% of the lumens, but improved the black level and increased the on/off CR by over 2000:1.

Using that example - the standard pj at D65 gave 1096 lumens and 7981:1 on/off CR, so a black level of 0.15 lumens.

With the stage one filter at D65 he got 980 lumens and 9320:1 contrast - just a 10.6% drop in lumens which is unlikely to be noticeable, but with a contrast increase of 131% to 9320:1 and a black level of 0.10 lumens, which is approx a 50% improvement and is usually visible. That 50% is consistent with adding a filter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is offline  
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