BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 28 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #811 of 2609 Old 03-01-2019, 02:44 PM
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To my fellow admirers of the excellent projector, it's been a while since I posted my initial observations. I have thoroughly enjoyed the LK970 in the meantime, but have finally gotten around to taking it to the next level. In doing so, I must heap praise on two individuals on this thread who were extremely helpful. First, tnaik4 for a few quick IMs recommending the use of the HD Fury Linker based on his success to enable the magic of my second "thankee", Dave Harper and his truly outstanding recommended calibration settings.

It's as if the settings were tailor made for my setup...The output simply sings on screen (SI BD) even at .8 gain, which is great for ballgames w/lights on, but be can be a brightness challenge for typical HT PJs. 20+ year old movie, The Fifth Element UHD, did not have any right to look as good as it did...Didn't have to change a thing, awesome!

So I wouldn't be a hobbyist if I didn't have at least something to cry about The Linker has introduced a fair bit of startup wait time, so I had to drop the PJ down to the bottom of the boot order and added an additional 10 second delay (Harmony Elite), that *kinda* fixed the occasional need to cycle the Processor (AVM60). It sits between the Processor and PJ, I welcome any thoughts about how to speed up the handshake. Finally it was/is a bit if an adjustment to switch back and forth from HDR (cinema) and SHD (eRGB), has anyone found a way to customize specific buttons for cinema and sRGB on their Harmony to get around having go in via the menu button each time?

TIA if so!
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post #812 of 2609 Old 03-01-2019, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuyingaNewWhat?! View Post
To my fellow admirers of the excellent projector, it's been a while since I posted my initial observations. I have thoroughly enjoyed the LK970 in the meantime, but have finally gotten around to taking it to the next level. In doing so, I must heap praise on two individuals on this thread who were extremely helpful. First, tnaik4 for a few quick IMs recommending the use of the HD Fury Linker based on his success to enable the magic of my second "thankee", Dave Harper and his truly outstanding recommended calibration settings.

It's as if the settings were tailor made for my setup...The output simply sings on screen (SI BD) even at .8 gain, which is great for ballgames w/lights on, but be can be a brightness challenge for typical HT PJs. 20+ year old movie, The Fifth Element UHD, did not have any right to look as good as it did...Didn't have to change a thing, awesome!

So I wouldn't be a hobbyist if I didn't have at least something to cry about [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG] The Linker has introduced a fair bit of lag, so I had to drop the PJ down to the bottom of the boot order and added an additional 10 second delay (Harmony Elite), that fixed the occasional need to cycle the Processor (AVM60). It sit between the Processor and PJ, I welcome any thoughts about how to speed up the handshake. Finally it was/is a bit if an adjustment to switch back and forth from HDR (cinema) and SHD (eRGB), has anyone found a way to customize specific buttons for cinema and sRGB on their Harmony to get around having go in via the menu button each time?

TIA if so!
Glad ur enjoying it, believe it or not i m still 4months later tweaking and finding new settings to make it look even better, alot of scenes looks just brilliant on it!!
Yes the HDfury introduce some handshake wait time, if u switch sources a lot it can be annoying.
If u havent yet i recommend watching The martian as soon as u can on it and of course Marvel movies cause they look stunning with daves settings.
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post #813 of 2609 Old 03-01-2019, 05:54 PM
 
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Guardians of the Galaxy 2 and The Revenant are simply jaw dropping as well.
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post #814 of 2609 Old 03-01-2019, 11:15 PM
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@Dave Harper

Hi Dave ,

Got hold of an LK970 ...any chance you could share your "HarperVision" settings?

PM sent with email address
Thanks..
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post #815 of 2609 Old 03-02-2019, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuyingaNewWhat?! View Post
To my fellow admirers of the excellent projector, it's been a while since I posted my initial observations. I have thoroughly enjoyed the LK970 in the meantime, but have finally gotten around to taking it to the next level. In doing so, I must heap praise on two individuals on this thread who were extremely helpful. First, tnaik4 for a few quick IMs recommending the use of the HD Fury Linker based on his success to enable the magic of my second "thankee", Dave Harper and his truly outstanding recommended calibration settings.



It's as if the settings were tailor made for my setup...The output simply sings on screen (SI BD) even at .8 gain, which is great for ballgames w/lights on, but be can be a brightness challenge for typical HT PJs. 20+ year old movie, The Fifth Element UHD, did not have any right to look as good as it did...Didn't have to change a thing, awesome!



So I wouldn't be a hobbyist if I didn't have at least something to cry about The Linker has introduced a fair bit of lag, so I had to drop the PJ down to the bottom of the boot order and added an additional 10 second delay (Harmony Elite), that fixed the occasional need to cycle the Processor (AVM60). It sit between the Processor and PJ, I welcome any thoughts about how to speed up the handshake. Finally it was/is a bit if an adjustment to switch back and forth from HDR (cinema) and SHD (eRGB), has anyone found a way to customize specific buttons for cinema and sRGB on their Harmony to get around having go in via the menu button each time?



TIA if so!
Linker has no frame memory of note so it is almost impossible for it to introduce lag. The only way inserting the Linker could have such an effect would be if it interfered with auto lipsync functions somehow.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk
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post #816 of 2609 Old 03-02-2019, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Linker has no frame memory of note so it is almost impossible for it to introduce lag. The only way inserting the Linker could have such an effect would be if it interfered with auto lipsync functions somehow.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk
It takes at least a full 30-40 seconds longer from system start to watching content than it did without the Linker in the chain. Insert whatever word you like for "lag", it just takes a lot longer now. I have a note to HDfury on another forum, perhaps they can shed some light on the situation.

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post #817 of 2609 Old 03-02-2019, 02:54 AM
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Woofer, I believe these are Dave's latest settings.


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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Holy S*** that’s some eye candy! So clean and deep and detailed. Colors pop and almost 3D.

I copied in some prior settings and tweaked a little from there by eye based on my LG OLED C8. Not officially measured or anything yet, just playing around for a little while I had time tonight, but wow!

Throw in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Avengers Infinity War and many others and then hold on for the ride!

UB820 in HDR/BT2020 mode to LK970:

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post #818 of 2609 Old 03-02-2019, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Linker has no frame memory of note so it is almost impossible for it to introduce lag. The only way inserting the Linker could have such an effect would be if it interfered with auto lipsync functions somehow.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk
Mine did the same - I just think it adds in some extra HDMI handshaking so things take a bit longer.
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #819 of 2609 Old 03-02-2019, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuyingaNewWhat?! View Post
It takes at least a full 30-40 seconds longer from system start to watching content than it did without the Linker in the chain. Insert whatever word you like for "lag", it just takes a lot longer now. I have a note to HDfury on another forum, perhaps they can shed some light on the situation.
OK, lag is usually referring to a pixel delay measured in milliseconds. I guess what you are describing is more of a delay in synching.

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post #820 of 2609 Old 03-02-2019, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@Dave Harper

Hi Dave ,

Got hold of an LK970 ...any chance you could share your "HarperVision" settings?

PM sent with email address
Thanks..
Really looking forward to your thoughts. Have you got it yet or it’s on it’s way?
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BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP

Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@Dave Harper



Hi Dave ,



Got hold of an LK970 ...any chance you could share your "HarperVision" settings?



PM sent with email address

Thanks..
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post
Woofer, I believe these are Dave's latest settings.

Thanks for the assist MX48! I think I’ve tweaked a tad since then but that’ll get him started anyway. I think I boosted the contrast and color some. Also, those greyscale and CMS aren’t metered, just taken from a prior version. I’ve been trying to get the measured versions but my Radiance Pro isn’t cooperating very well, even when trying to use it as the pattern source.

Speaking of the Radiance Pro, I’ll hopefully have a new HarperVision version soon with that playing a part as well for other owners.
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post #822 of 2609 Old 03-02-2019, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@Dave Harper



Hi Dave ,



Got hold of an LK970 ...any chance you could share your "HarperVision" settings?



PM sent with email address

Thanks..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post
Woofer, I believe these are Dave's latest settings.

Thanks for the assist MX48! I think I’ve tweaked a tad since then but that’ll get him started anyway. I think I boosted the contrast and color some. Also, those greyscale and CMS aren’t metered, just taken from a prior version. I’ve been trying to get the measured versions but my Radiance Pro isn’t cooperating very well, even when trying to use it as the pattern source.

Speaking of the Radiance Pro, I’ll hopefully have a new HarperVision version soon with that playing a part as well for other owners.
Yes dave the greyscale was a little off on mine and needed adjusting, it was too blue on the low end, i also tweaked the tint cause it was a little yellow overall, other than that everything looks good the way it is. Colors pop like crazy
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Really looking forward to your thoughts. Have you got it yet or it’s on it’s way?
On its way..
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post #824 of 2609 Old 03-08-2019, 01:16 AM
 
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BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP

This is what I believe is BenQ’s “secret sauce”.........Dynamic Power Control. It starts at about 1:24 into this video, which isn’t specifically about the LK970 but it has this feature also:


This doesn’t appear to be your normal laser dimming. That feature is added later on in the LK990. I guess I’ll see soon when I get mine.

It’s the only logical explanation for what I see with this, which goes beyond the spec numbers which seem to baffle those that haven’t seen one properly setup, especially with HDR. I think this is also why it doesn’t seem “too bright” to me like other light cannon projectors do. It dynamically adjusts total system power based on scene APL or something, different than a simple laser dimming algorithm and it appears to do a damn good job of it to my eyes! Every time I watch it I’m amazed for the price and I literally say “wow” every time.

idk, they’re doing something.....and I love it!
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post #825 of 2609 Old 03-08-2019, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
This is what I believe is BenQ’s “secret sauce”.........Dynamic Power Control. It starts at about 1:24 into this video, which isn’t specifically about the LK970 but it has this feature also:

https://youtu.be/D1K8Sgq7-DU

This doesn’t appear to be your normal laser dimming. That feature is added later on in the LK990. I guess I’ll see soon when I get mine.

It’s the only logical explanation for what I see with this, which goes beyond the spec numbers which seem to baffle those that haven’t seen one properly setup, especially with HDR. I think this is also why it doesn’t seem “too bright” to me like other light cannon projectors do. It dynamically adjusts total system power based on scene APL or something, different than a simple laser dimming algorithm and it appears to do a damn good job of it to my eyes! Every time I watch it I’m amazed for the price and I literally say “wow” every time.

idk, they’re doing something.....and I love it!
Sometimes there are a lot of variables that aren't caught by the normal 'numbers' we see posted about projectors...

That's why i think people's subjective opinions are as valid as just posting numbers...
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post #826 of 2609 Old 03-08-2019, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
This is what I believe is BenQ’s “secret sauce”.........Dynamic Power Control. It starts at about 1:24 into this video, which isn’t specifically about the LK970 but it has this feature also:

https://youtu.be/D1K8Sgq7-DU

This doesn’t appear to be your normal laser dimming. That feature is added later on in the LK990. I guess I’ll see soon when I get mine.

It’s the only logical explanation for what I see with this, which goes beyond the spec numbers which seem to baffle those that haven’t seen one properly setup, especially with HDR. I think this is also why it doesn’t seem “too bright” to me like other light cannon projectors do. It dynamically adjusts total system power based on scene APL or something, different than a simple laser dimming algorithm and it appears to do a damn good job of it to my eyes! Every time I watch it I’m amazed for the price and I literally say “wow” every time.
What you describe is just the correctly functioning laser equivalent of a Dynamic Iris, where the laser power is modified at the same time as the image gamma to use as much panel dynamic range as possible and get an intra-scene contrast edge. I don't think there is anything new here, unless I'm missing something you've spotted in the materials that hints at something revolutionary?
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post #827 of 2609 Old 03-08-2019, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
This is what I believe is BenQ’s “secret sauce”.........Dynamic Power Control. It starts at about 1:24 into this video, which isn’t specifically about the LK970 but it has this feature also:


This doesn’t appear to be your normal laser dimming. That feature is added later on in the LK990. I guess I’ll see soon when I get mine.

It’s the only logical explanation for what I see with this, which goes beyond the spec numbers which seem to baffle those that haven’t seen one properly setup, especially with HDR. I think this is also why it doesn’t seem “too bright” to me like other light cannon projectors do. It dynamically adjusts total system power based on scene APL or something, different than a simple laser dimming algorithm and it appears to do a damn good job of it to my eyes! Every time I watch it I’m amazed for the price and I literally say “wow” every time.

idk, they’re doing something.....and I love it!
That blank to 0 black only works in the blank button on the remote not with actual content, at least for me and 12gage on our 970 and its not 0 black either but very very close, its probably implemented on the 990.

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post #828 of 2609 Old 03-08-2019, 05:57 AM
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Can someone please PM me the estimated price-of-entry into the LK970 game here. I see MSRP and then so many varied prices around the internet, so I'm not sure what sort of pricing mindset I need to be in to achieve this PQ that so many here are enamored with.

Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks

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What you describe is just the correctly functioning laser equivalent of a Dynamic Iris, where the laser power is modified at the same time as the image gamma to use as much panel dynamic range as possible and get an intra-scene contrast edge. I don't think there is anything new here, unless I'm missing something you've spotted in the materials that hints at something revolutionary?

I understand what dynamic Iris and laser dimming is, which is why I preempted that exact question with this exact paragraph.....

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......This doesn’t appear to be your normal laser dimming. That feature is added later on in the LK990. I guess I’ll see soon when I get mine.............

As stated in my quoted paragraph, their dynamic iris/laser equivalent is now in the upgraded model, the LK990, and it’s called SmartEco. So if they “added” this feature in the LK990, then what is Dynamic Power Control which they also both have?

For all I know, it could be basically the same thing or something totally different. That’s the very reason I posted what I did, to entice conversation about this.
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I understand what dynamic Iris and laser dimming is, which is why I preempted that exact question with this exact paragraph.....

As stated in my quoted paragraph, their dynamic iris/laser equivalent is now in the upgraded model, the LK990, and it’s called SmartEco. So if they “added” this feature in the LK990, then what is Dynamic Power Control which they also both have?

For all I know, it could be basically the same thing or something totally different. That’s the very reason I posted what I did, to entice conversation about this.
Without someone getting one and looking in detail at how it is behaving (probably using a power meter and some very careful tests with different size / level patches) it is anyone's guess, but there isn't really anything else other than described unless you are into esoteric dual modulation systems, which this almost certainly isn't as the measured performance would be much better. I must say I see these videos and every time I see "blah blah blah more marketroid BS blah blah blah a bit more marketroid bs blah blah". (think the teacher in Charlie Brown!).
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Without someone getting one and looking in detail at how it is behaving (probably using a power meter and some very careful tests with different size / level patches) it is anyone's guess, but there isn't really anything else other than described unless you are into esoteric dual modulation systems, which this almost certainly isn't as the measured performance would be much better........

I’m pretty sure @12GAGE did some power tests with some interesting results.


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.........I must say I see these videos and every time I see "blah blah blah more marketroid BS blah blah blah a bit more marketroid bs blah blah". (think the teacher in Charlie Brown!).
But the reality is, whatever they’re doing it really does work. Something about these BenQs are definitely different than their peers. It’s easily seen and very pleasing to the eye.
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BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP

Here is a post from a while ago from 12GAGE that sums it up pretty well. I’m trying to find his power measurements post too.

The last couple sentences are key to what is seen. This goes to what I’ve been saying, that the black in the video is definitely darker than what is seen in things like a 0 IRE pattern, the black bars on 2.35:1, the pond of mirror edges, etc. If you blank those out or ignore them and ONLY concentrate on the active video, it’s absolutely stunning!!! This is why I think an anamorphic lens is best to get those bars out of the viewable area so they don’t destroy your perception of the black reality!

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Unfortunately there is not really anyway to confirm what the unit is doing. From looking at the amperage draw on the unit, I can see that the laser power fluctuates from scene to scene. They call it automatic power control. So normal power as I measure is not full laser power. The unit will increase or decrease laser power based on the scene. It is pretty invisible to be honest. If you have a pluge pattern it seems that is detected as a dark scene. From my measures the pluge pattern actually yield darker black than the 0 ire pattern which seems dark gray.
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post #833 of 2609 Old 03-09-2019, 01:04 AM
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Here is a post from a while ago from 12GAGE that sums it up pretty well. I’m trying to find his power measurements post too.

The last couple sentences are key to what is seen. This goes to what I’ve been saying, that the black in the video is definitely darker than what is seen in things like a 0 IRE pattern, the black bars on 2.35:1, the pond of mirror edges, etc. If you blank those out or ignore them and ONLY concentrate on the active video, it’s absolutely stunning!!! This is why I think an anamorphic lens is best to get those bars out of the viewable area so they don’t destroy your perception of the black reality!
It needs some actual measurements (which I haven't managed to find either); this is all measurable at this level. The only difference in perception of black within scenes would be down to differences in ANSI contrast / ADL contrast for peak white matched, or higher peak white / ambient light biasing the eye differently.

It is hard to see from this quote what he's saying - if it is >measurably< darker on screen, or if his assumption is the projector is that the projector outputting a darker laser level because when outputting the pluge test the power consumption is lower than with the 0IRE screen. There are other reasons the power consumption may vary, so the AC power draw would get you into the vicinity of understanding. To be sure about the laser operation you'd need to be watching the drive for the laser module directly.

I really wish someone would come out with some detailed numbers (I thought I found another of 12GAUGE's posts the other day, but still I couldn't see any actual detail numbers on what was going on. Maybe it made sense to him as he was doing it, but from the post I couldn't really gather anything. Tables of data are much better than sentences). ADL contrast charts would be a start, detailing what the peak white and black measured is for each ADL chart. Probably needs to use the lower level charts that @ARROW-AV did, too (between 0 and 1%, and for DI/DD testing). Example scenes picked out which show off the projector strengths and weakness would be good too.

It's also really hard to get a feel for how folk have these units set up for things like peak white in SDR, room layout and lighting, etc as there are so few of them. You can create all kinds of interesting optical effects if ambient light is introduced into a room to bias the eye. This can and does make the black level appear much darker in mixed scenes as the eye gets biased away from being so open. As an example, in my black hole cinema the other day watching Teen Titans the Movie - you could make the black look blacker in mixed scenes by leaving the lights on and door open. If I crank up the lamp mode it starts to >look< positively OLED'esque in those bright scenes set up like this. But any dark scenes look bad with the lights on and door open in this way. Light cannons in rooms which already have poor black floors and ambient light will undoubtedly look better in those rooms than darker projectors with better blacks, once your eye is already biased away from black.

I'm not doubting you in saying it looks great to you, but as yet I can't see any useful information about why this is, and without that it is very hard to make any sort of judgement as to whether it might look good in a given room in a given use. These are not stocked projectors in most places, and so in many cases (like listed in one of the threads) you're already putting yourself in a bit of a "position" in asking some dealer to get one in to show you, and that show you is probably not going to be in a representative room.

In my case I'm not interested in the laser unit as I know full well the RBE will do me in, but the 8060 LED is in the same situation - I know already unless field reports make it out to be the 2nd coming of the Messiah it's not going to be on demo almost anywhere. Ironically in the UK the best option is probably to buy it mail order as you have 14 day right of return under distance selling regulations. However some retailers try and shirk their responsibilities in this respect which makes even that not straightforward.

Last edited by bobof; 03-09-2019 at 02:01 AM.
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post #834 of 2609 Old 03-09-2019, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
This is what I believe is BenQ’s “secret sauce”.........Dynamic Power Control. It starts at about 1:24 into this video, which isn’t specifically about the LK970 but it has this feature also:

This doesn’t appear to be your normal laser dimming. That feature is added later on in the LK990. I guess I’ll see soon when I get mine.
The only things that the projector is capable of manipulating is laser power and gamma. What else do you think it's doing? Perhaps it just does this very effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
As stated in my quoted paragraph, their dynamic iris/laser equivalent is now in the upgraded model, the LK990, and it’s called SmartEco. So if they “added” this feature in the LK990, then what is Dynamic Power Control which they also both have?
They probably just improved upon the laser dimming and gave it a new marketing term.

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post #835 of 2609 Old 03-09-2019, 06:12 AM
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I will post some tables after returning from vacation. This has been an iterative process where I would see things qualitatively and follow up with measurements to confirm. In reference to the pluge pattern vs 0% ire this difference was confirmed via measure. AC power was analyzed with just the projector as an isolated input. While not perfect due to the nature of AC power; it did provide scene by scene data to help populate the data table. Correlation was then confirmed via the static ADL patterns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Here is a post from a while ago from 12GAGE that sums it up pretty well. I’m trying to find his power measurements post too.

The last couple sentences are key to what is seen. This goes to what I’ve been saying, that the black in the video is definitely darker than what is seen in things like a 0 IRE pattern, the black bars on 2.35:1, the pond of mirror edges, etc. If you blank those out or ignore them and ONLY concentrate on the active video, it’s absolutely stunning!!! This is why I think an anamorphic lens is best to get those bars out of the viewable area so they don’t destroy your perception of the black reality!
It needs some actual measurements (which I haven't managed to find either); this is all measurable at this level. The only difference in perception of black within scenes would be down to differences in ANSI contrast / ADL contrast for peak white matched, or higher peak white / ambient light biasing the eye differently.

It is hard to see from this quote what he's saying - if it is >measurably< darker on screen, or if his assumption is the projector is that the projector outputting a darker laser level because when outputting the pluge test the power consumption is lower than with the 0IRE screen. There are other reasons the power consumption may vary, so the AC power draw would get you into the vicinity of understanding. To be sure about the laser operation you'd need to be watching the drive for the laser module directly.

I really wish someone would come out with some detailed numbers (I thought I found another of 12GAUGE's posts the other day, but still I couldn't see any actual detail numbers on what was going on. Maybe it made sense to him as he was doing it, but from the post I couldn't really gather anything. Tables of data are much better than sentences). ADL contrast charts would be a start, detailing what the peak white and black measured is for each ADL chart. Probably needs to use the lower level charts that @ARROW-AV did, too (between 0 and 1%, and for DI/DD testing). Example scenes picked out which show off the projector strengths and weakness would be good too.

It's also really hard to get a feel for how folk have these units set up for things like peak white in SDR, room layout and lighting, etc as there are so few of them. You can create all kinds of interesting optical effects if ambient light is introduced into a room to bias the eye. This can and does make the black level appear much darker in mixed scenes as the eye gets biased away from being so open. As an example, in my black hole cinema the other day watching Teen Titans the Movie - you could make the black look blacker in mixed scenes by leaving the lights on and door open. If I crank up the lamp mode it starts to >look< positively OLED'esque in those bright scenes set up like this. But any dark scenes look bad with the lights on and door open in this way. Light cannons in rooms which already have poor black floors and ambient light will undoubtedly look better in those rooms than darker projectors with better blacks, once your eye is already biased away from black.

I'm not doubting you in saying it looks great to you, but as yet I can't see any useful information about why this is, and without that it is very hard to make any sort of judgement as to whether it might look good in a given room in a given use. These are not stocked projectors in most places, and so in many cases (like listed in one of the threads) you're already putting yourself in a bit of a "position" in asking some dealer to get one in to show you, and that show you is probably not going to be in a representative room.

In my case I'm not interested in the laser unit as I know full well the RBE will do me in, but the 8060 LED is in the same situation - I know already unless field reports make it out to be the 2nd coming of the Messiah it's not going to be on demo almost anywhere. Ironically in the UK the best option is probably to buy it mail order as you have 14 day right of return under distance selling regulations. However some retailers try and shirk their responsibilities in this respect which makes even that not straightforward.
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post #836 of 2609 Old 03-09-2019, 06:17 AM
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I will post some tables after returning from vacation. This has been an iterative process where I would see things qualitatively and follow up with measurements to confirm. In reference to the pluge pattern vs 0% ire this difference was confirmed via measure. AC power was analyzed with just the projector as an isolated input. While not perfect due to the nature of AC power; it did provide scene by scene data to help populate the data table. Correlation was then confirmed via the static ADL patterns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Here is a post from a while ago from 12GAGE that sums it up pretty well. I’m trying to find his power measurements post too.

The last couple sentences are key to what is seen. This goes to what I’ve been saying, that the black in the video is definitely darker than what is seen in things like a 0 IRE pattern, the black bars on 2.35:1, the pond of mirror edges, etc. If you blank those out or ignore them and ONLY concentrate on the active video, it’s absolutely stunning!!! This is why I think an anamorphic lens is best to get those bars out of the viewable area so they don’t destroy your perception of the black reality!
It needs some actual measurements (which I haven't managed to find either); this is all measurable at this level. The only difference in perception of black within scenes would be down to differences in ANSI contrast / ADL contrast for peak white matched, or higher peak white / ambient light biasing the eye differently.

It is hard to see from this quote what he's saying - if it is >measurably< darker on screen, or if his assumption is the projector is that the projector outputting a darker laser level because when outputting the pluge test the power consumption is lower than with the 0IRE screen. There are other reasons the power consumption may vary, so the AC power draw would get you into the vicinity of understanding. To be sure about the laser operation you'd need to be watching the drive for the laser module directly.

I really wish someone would come out with some detailed numbers (I thought I found another of 12GAUGE's posts the other day, but still I couldn't see any actual detail numbers on what was going on. Maybe it made sense to him as he was doing it, but from the post I couldn't really gather anything. Tables of data are much better than sentences). ADL contrast charts would be a start, detailing what the peak white and black measured is for each ADL chart. Probably needs to use the lower level charts that @ARROW-AV did, too (between 0 and 1%, and for DI/DD testing). Example scenes picked out which show off the projector strengths and weakness would be good too.

It's also really hard to get a feel for how folk have these units set up for things like peak white in SDR, room layout and lighting, etc as there are so few of them. You can create all kinds of interesting optical effects if ambient light is introduced into a room to bias the eye. This can and does make the black level appear much darker in mixed scenes as the eye gets biased away from being so open. As an example, in my black hole cinema the other day watching Teen Titans the Movie - you could make the black look blacker in mixed scenes by leaving the lights on and door open. If I crank up the lamp mode it starts to >look< positively OLED'esque in those bright scenes set up like this. But any dark scenes look bad with the lights on and door open in this way. Light cannons in rooms which already have poor black floors and ambient light will undoubtedly look better in those rooms than darker projectors with better blacks, once your eye is already biased away from black.

I'm not doubting you in saying it looks great to you, but as yet I can't see any useful information about why this is, and without that it is very hard to make any sort of judgement as to whether it might look good in a given room in a given use. These are not stocked projectors in most places, and so in many cases (like listed in one of the threads) you're already putting yourself in a bit of a "position" in asking some dealer to get one in to show you, and that show you is probably not going to be in a representative room.

In my case I'm not interested in the laser unit as I know full well the RBE will do me in, but the 8060 LED is in the same situation - I know already unless field reports make it out to be the 2nd coming of the Messiah it's not going to be on demo almost anywhere. Ironically in the UK the best option is probably to buy it mail order as you have 14 day right of return under distance selling regulations. However some retailers try and shirk their responsibilities in this respect which makes even that not straightforward.
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post #837 of 2609 Old 03-09-2019, 06:19 AM
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I will post some tables after returning from vacation. This has been an iterative process where I would see things qualitatively and follow up with measurements to confirm. In reference to the pluge pattern vs 0% ire this difference was confirmed via measure. AC power was analyzed with just the projector as an isolated input. While not perfect due to the nature of AC power; it did provide scene by scene data to help populate the data table. Correlation was then confirmed via the static ADL patterns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Here is a post from a while ago from 12GAGE that sums it up pretty well. I’m trying to find his power measurements post too.

The last couple sentences are key to what is seen. This goes to what I’ve been saying, that the black in the video is definitely darker than what is seen in things like a 0 IRE pattern, the black bars on 2.35:1, the pond of mirror edges, etc. If you blank those out or ignore them and ONLY concentrate on the active video, it’s absolutely stunning!!! This is why I think an anamorphic lens is best to get those bars out of the viewable area so they don’t destroy your perception of the black reality!
It needs some actual measurements (which I haven't managed to find either); this is all measurable at this level. The only difference in perception of black within scenes would be down to differences in ANSI contrast / ADL contrast for peak white matched, or higher peak white / ambient light biasing the eye differently.

It is hard to see from this quote what he's saying - if it is >measurably< darker on screen, or if his assumption is the projector is that the projector outputting a darker laser level because when outputting the pluge test the power consumption is lower than with the 0IRE screen. There are other reasons the power consumption may vary, so the AC power draw would get you into the vicinity of understanding. To be sure about the laser operation you'd need to be watching the drive for the laser module directly.

I really wish someone would come out with some detailed numbers (I thought I found another of 12GAUGE's posts the other day, but still I couldn't see any actual detail numbers on what was going on. Maybe it made sense to him as he was doing it, but from the post I couldn't really gather anything. Tables of data are much better than sentences). ADL contrast charts would be a start, detailing what the peak white and black measured is for each ADL chart. Probably needs to use the lower level charts that @ARROW-AV did, too (between 0 and 1%, and for DI/DD testing). Example scenes picked out which show off the projector strengths and weakness would be good too.

It's also really hard to get a feel for how folk have these units set up for things like peak white in SDR, room layout and lighting, etc as there are so few of them. You can create all kinds of interesting optical effects if ambient light is introduced into a room to bias the eye. This can and does make the black level appear much darker in mixed scenes as the eye gets biased away from being so open. As an example, in my black hole cinema the other day watching Teen Titans the Movie - you could make the black look blacker in mixed scenes by leaving the lights on and door open. If I crank up the lamp mode it starts to >look< positively OLED'esque in those bright scenes set up like this. But any dark scenes look bad with the lights on and door open in this way. Light cannons in rooms which already have poor black floors and ambient light will undoubtedly look better in those rooms than darker projectors with better blacks, once your eye is already biased away from black.

I'm not doubting you in saying it looks great to you, but as yet I can't see any useful information about why this is, and without that it is very hard to make any sort of judgement as to whether it might look good in a given room in a given use. These are not stocked projectors in most places, and so in many cases (like listed in one of the threads) you're already putting yourself in a bit of a "position" in asking some dealer to get one in to show you, and that show you is probably not going to be in a representative room.

In my case I'm not interested in the laser unit as I know full well the RBE will do me in, but the 8060 LED is in the same situation - I know already unless field reports make it out to be the 2nd coming of the Messiah it's not going to be on demo almost anywhere. Ironically in the UK the best option is probably to buy it mail order as you have 14 day right of return under distance selling regulations. However some retailers try and shirk their responsibilities in this respect which makes even that not straightforward.
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post #838 of 2609 Old 03-09-2019, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
This is what I believe is BenQ’s “secret sauce”.........Dynamic Power Control. It starts at about 1:24 into this video, which isn’t specifically about the LK970 but it has this feature also:

https://youtu.be/D1K8Sgq7-DU

This doesn’t appear to be your normal laser dimming. That feature is added later on in the LK990. I guess I’ll see soon when I get mine.

It’s the only logical explanation for what I see with this, which goes beyond the spec numbers which seem to baffle those that haven’t seen one properly setup, especially with HDR. I think this is also why it doesn’t seem “too bright” to me like other light cannon projectors do. It dynamically adjusts total system power based on scene APL or something, different than a simple laser dimming algorithm and it appears to do a damn good job of it to my eyes! Every time I watch it I’m amazed for the price and I literally say “wow” every time.

idk, they’re doing something.....and I love it!
Liquid cooling ! How's the fan noise ? Does liquid cooling help lower the fan db ?
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post #839 of 2609 Old 03-09-2019, 09:06 AM
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The mileage varies on this on Craig. My unit is not loud at all but it is a table mount with tons of airflow. Some others have had louder units. In theory liquid cooling should work well though. Fan noise is rated at 34/37 dB but I am not sure how accurate that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
This is what I believe is BenQ’s “secret sauce”.........Dynamic Power Control. It starts at about 1:24 into this video, which isn’t specifically about the LK970 but it has this feature also:

https://youtu.be/D1K8Sgq7-DU

This doesn’t appear to be your normal laser dimming. That feature is added later on in the LK990. I guess I’ll see soon when I get mine.

It’s the only logical explanation for what I see with this, which goes beyond the spec numbers which seem to baffle those that haven’t seen one properly setup, especially with HDR. I think this is also why it doesn’t seem “too bright” to me like other light cannon projectors do. It dynamically adjusts total system power based on scene APL or something, different than a simple laser dimming algorithm and it appears to do a damn good job of it to my eyes! Every time I watch it I’m amazed for the price and I literally say “wow” every time.

idk, they’re doing something.....and I love it!
Liquid cooling ! How's the fan noise ? Does liquid cooling help lower the fan db ?
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post #840 of 2609 Old 03-09-2019, 09:18 AM
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The mileage varies on this on Craig. My unit is not loud at all but it is a table mount with tons of airflow. Some others have had louder units. In theory liquid cooling should work well though. Fan noise is rated at 34/37 dB but I am not sure how accurate that is.
Interesting. I see liquid cooling as a mixed bag. It's another thing to go wrong - like a leak.
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