BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 34 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #991 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Spent the majority of today with some HT friends comparing the LK970 . We had my Z1/RS4500 / X9900/ X7500 and my friends Sony 760ES. .

The LK970 CAN put out a truly truly "Stunning" image .....with a "Caveat" ..... The "Caveat" being the material has to NOT be comprised ( or very minimal ) of LOW APL Scenes!

There is no way of saying otherwise, but the LOW APL Black level is VERY POOR . Put this aspect aside just for a moment because on material that doesn't fall into that APL level the image is superb.

Some points..

Sharpness / Perceived .... The lens on the LK970 top notch, on many occasions it "appears" sharper than my Z1/RS4500. It IS substantially sharper than the SONY 760ES and embarrass the 2 E-Shift projectors!

Brightness... It lights up my 143" cope screen from 20ft with ease..... It is substantially brighter than my Z1/RS4500 .. 5000 lumens vs 3000 lumens.

Noise.... Its louder than my Z1 on MED Laser, and quieter than my Z1 on HIGH Laser.

My friend who owns the SONY 760ES ( he also has an X9500) loved the LK970... even after seeing its lacklustre LOW APL peformance , he stated he would take the LK970 over his 760ES because of the other good aspects of the LK970.

Myself....i "Defiantly Defiantly " prefer the LOW APL performance of my Z1/RS4500 over the LK970 , but in other areas i really like the LK970 ....on some material i preferred it to my Z1/RS4500..

The LK970 is areal conundrum...... On one hand it can look "Abysmal!!! " but on the other it can look truly "Stunning"

I think we are all looking for the perfect projector , which i dont think exists. ALL of the projectors here have strong and weak points...ALL the projectors here produced VERY enjoyable images..

Some will write the LK970 off due to it being DLP and having POOR APL Black level performance......fair enough.....thats what Personal Preferences are all about..

Me..... I very much like the LK970

OH..... @Dave Harper I am truly truly sorry but we DID do a split screen shot of "Interstellar" @markmon1

A few pics below...
On pictures 17 and 19 I can actually see banding on the 970 images! If that is visible during dark scenes then there is no way I could live with that.

Were the settings untouched between all these scenes? I ask because the brightness seems to be set lower on the 970 than the Z1.

One thing it does illustrate VERY well is the sharpness afforded by the DLP chip even with e-fudgery going on.

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post #992 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Of course the picture don't show any difference with sharpness.
On my 4K monitor I could see failry large differences in the sharpness between the 970 and the Z1.

On pictures 1 and 2 I can see more patina (in sharper relief) on the lady at the fronts leather apparel on the 970.

Weirdly though, the darker parts of the image seem darker in those pictures on the 970 but also have less shadow detail.
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post #993 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
That's not quite true though... Rainbow Effect can most certainly be an issue with both Laser and LED based DLP technology projectors. The phenomenon can be reduced by increasing the respective cycling rates of the color wheels or LED panels, wherein it is my understanding that BenQ use a faster cycling rate with these projectors accordingly to help minimize it. But technically it still exists. Although, it is very good news to hear that you are not noticing it. But some people are more sensitive to noticing it than others. However, if the effect has been minimized to the extent that it's not at all noticable by the vast majority of people then it should be considered to be a non-issue



I actually don't think that it is an illusion at all. I think that is actually the case

In short, I fully expect to be measuring higher contrast with these projectors as compared with the likes of the JVC Z1/4500 for the respective ADL image luminance range.



So I fully expect that the objective measurements will simply confirm what you are subjectively seeing here, namely that the contrast with the BenQ for the respective higher image luminance range IS actually superior / higher than the JVC Z1/RS4500
So in this regard these BenQ projectors are throwing the cat amongst the pigeons that's for sure, especially given the pricing!

Nigel thanks...

The LK970 on these bright scenes is simply superb...

Its kind of similar to my Z1 versus the X9900....the X9900 has far higher NATIVE contrast , but the Z1 performs so so much better on bright content, BUT is very close to the X9900 in the Black Floor.

On these bright scenes the LK970 makes the X9900 look positively FLAT / DULL !!

Many moons ago i had a high end Marantz DLP , then a Sim 2 DLP..... i had forgotten just how clean and sharp the images from DLP are.

Oh....once you have sampled something with 5000 lumens ...... its awfully hard to go back to just 3000 lumens..
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post #994 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
The LK970 CAN put out a truly truly "Stunning" image .....with a "Caveat" ..... The "Caveat" being the material has to NOT be comprised ( or very minimal ) of LOW APL Scenes!


The LK970 is areal conundrum...... On one hand it can look "Abysmal!!! " but on the other it can look truly "Stunning"

I think we are all looking for the perfect projector , which i dont think exists. ALL of the projectors here have strong and weak points...ALL the projectors here produced VERY enjoyable images..

Some will write the LK970 off due to it being DLP and having POOR APL Black level performance......fair enough.....thats what Personal Preferences are all about..
Thanks, Woofer. Very kind of you to take the time and give us this review. Wow, looking from those pictures, it is consistent that the LK970 is tremendously sharp.

How was the level of the LK970's RBE to the audience?

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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
In those scenes especially we see an order of magnitude difference in rendering of the image between to two technologies.
Well, I wouldn't say that though. The UHZ65, another XPR, single chip laser DLP, while not quite as sharp or bright as the LK970, knocked my socks off with dark scenes like that with its precision, brightness, and dimming. Its dynamic contrast (in only its medium setting) measured 45,000:1 in one picture setting and over 30,000:1 in another.

Unfortunately, the UHZ65 showed me pervasive RBE.
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post #995 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
How does the 3-Chip DLPs like the one in the Christie (which you said is the new ultimate), performs in terms of 'clarity' compared to single chip? I presume that with 3 chip, it'll suffer the same 'slight' convergence issues as the 3-chip Lcos?

Just wondering how much 'sharpness and clarity' using 3 chip gives up vs single chip... (other variables aside)
Nope

DLP is a different animal as compared with LCoS. Comparatively, 3-chip DLP has superior RGB convergence, better uniformity, as well as less temperature variance, fluctuations and drifting. So, unlike LCoS, with 3-chip DLP it is easily possible to achieve perfect RGB convergence.

So the superior sharpness of these BenQ projectors is by no means exclusively due to the singular chipset and hence absense of RGB pixel/panel convergence, but also due to the fact that the technology itself is DLP as opposed to LCoS. Where, for the aforementioned reasons, DLP projectors will typically be sharper than LCoS equivalents.

The Christie projector is a good example of this; where the fact of the matter is that the image cannot get any sharper, in that the native 4K pixel structure with respect to each and every single pixel throughout the entire native 4K pixel grid, namely all 8,847,360 pixels, is absolutely razor sharp... I reiterate, the native 4K pixel structure with respect to each and every single pixel throughout the entire native 4K pixel grid, namely all 8,847,360 pixels, is absolutely razor sharp!!! Hence the perfect score and why it really IS the ultimate!

Seriously, you just can't get better than this!





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post #996 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
How was the level of the LK970's RBE to the audience?

NO one detected any....

Forgot to mention also.....Motion......Just excellent....
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post #997 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 06:09 AM
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Thanks again Woofer. Good stuff man. From your time with the LK970, do you see any value in a color filter to extend the gamut if the brightness loss was 10-15 % ? I think sometimes if the dynamic dimming was more aggressive on the low end the picture would be better on low apl scenes, but the dimming algorithm is hard to get right. If the gamma is messed up or there is pumping that would bother me more I believe.


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How was the level of the LK970's RBE to the audience?

NO one detected any....[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Forgot to mention also.....Motion......Just excellent....[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
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post #998 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 06:11 AM
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Ah - this brought back a memory

I did recall that at times the color on the 970 could seem overblown - almost cartoonish in intensity with noticeable posterisation/banding.



The Z1 seems more natural - more like my 760ES.


That said, from memory... I think the 990 didn't exhibit this issue.
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post #999 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
NO one detected any....

Forgot to mention also.....Motion......Just excellent....
So all those poo pooing the 970 and its kin simply because of RBE and contrast issues, really should just go and see for themselves is the upshot of all this?

It REALLY DOES come down to firstly, your budget, followed by which form of image and what you like best about a moving image that will decide what is best for the individual.

I think it is great there are so many options around!

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post #1000 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
I am 100% sure a good grey screen would have helped the darker scenes a lot.
This is an excellent point

In fact, I would go so far as to say that, all things considered, in order to properly evaluate the video performance of these projectors, especially considering both the ON/OFF contrast performance and the high lumens light output, IMO a grey screen is not just recommended but essential.

Because, without a doubt, a grey screen material is the correct and best choice of screen material to attain the best video performance from these projectors, and given the high lumens light output there is more than sufficient light output to sacrifice by using such a screen material in return for a deepened black floor, which indubitably will help to offset the low native ON/OFF contrast performance.

Therefore, a white screen material is definitely the wrong choice for these projectors, if you care about attaining the best video performance

Otherwise, it's kinda like testing a high performance car whilst using the wrong choice of tyres, and then criticizing its road handling performance...

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post #1001 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
Ah - this brought back a memory

I did recall that at times the color on the 970 could seem overblown - almost cartoonish in intensity with noticeable posterisation/banding.


The Z1 seems more natural - more like my 760ES.
Good point. On my monitor, it appears the LK has a bit of a blue/cool push too. Color seems slightly over-saturated but it looks like the LK is set to a high power gamma and that may be presenting as a slightly heavier saturation.

Still, pretty good given the short turnaround time to make adjustments for Woofer's review here.
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post #1002 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
Ah - this brought back a memory

I did recall that at times the color on the 970 could seem overblown - almost cartoonish in intensity with noticeable posterisation/banding.



The Z1 seems more natural - more like my 760ES.


That said, from memory... I think the 990 didn't exhibit this issue.
There does appear to be a preponderance of colour to the 970 images in way that makes them look somewhat over saturated.
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post #1003 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
This is an excellent point

In fact, I would go so far as to say that, all things considered, in order to properly evaluate the video performance of these projectors, especially considering both the ON/OFF contrast performance and the high lumens light output, IMO a grey screen is not just recommended but essential.

Because, without a doubt, a grey screen material is the correct and best choice of screen material to attain the best video performance from these projectors, and given the high lumens light output there is more than sufficient light output to sacrifice by using such a screen material in return for a deepened black floor, which indubitably will help to offset the low native ON/OFF contrast performance.

Therefore, a white screen material is definitely the wrong choice for these projectors, if you care about attaining the best video performance

Otherwise, it's kinda like testing a high performance car whilst using the wrong choice of tyres, and then criticizing its road handling performance...

Surely this only holds true in an environment where there is significant ambient light pollution, either from the projector itself bouncing off the room walls and back to the screen, or from fixed ambient light sources in the room? If the room is a black hole, all you're doing is lowering the peak white and black floor together, to no contrast benefit. Sure, you'll get a black level bump, but you could have also achieved that by reducing laser power or sticking an ND filter in front of the lens (though the latter might bring an ANSI sacrifice).

I don't get there being any benefit of a grey screen in what would be classed as a good room for contrast.
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post #1004 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
No RBE....from what i understand its NOT an issue with either Laser or LED based DLP,s
The 970 uses color wheels, so very definitely can have RBE.
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post #1005 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
Ah - this brought back a memory

I did recall that at times the color on the 970 could seem overblown - almost cartoonish in intensity with noticeable posterisation/banding.



The Z1 seems more natural - more like my 760ES.


That said, from memory... I think the 990 didn't exhibit this issue.
Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
Ah - this brought back a memory

I did recall that at times the color on the 970 could seem overblown - almost cartoonish in intensity with noticeable posterisation/banding.


The Z1 seems more natural - more like my 760ES.
Good point. On my monitor, it appears the LK has a bit of a blue/cool push too. Color seems slightly over-saturated but it looks like the LK is set to a high power gamma and that may be presenting as a slightly heavier saturation.

Still, pretty good given the short turnaround time to make adjustments for Woofer's review here.
I agree the pics look a little off.
Probably woofer didnt have much time to properly calibrate it, on mine it looks very different and more natural, i will post after work in 4-5 hours the same pics he took, i already posted the dark scenes so u can already see how different they are.
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post #1006 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 07:15 AM
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Yes u are totally right, i m a gamer and its one of the main reasons i bought the LK970, games usually dont have the black floor of movies and even on my OLED they dont look black so they benefit the most from what this projector has, it is actually stunning while gaming specially if u have high end pc and feed it native 4k.
Does it at least do full fade to black on loading screens? Thats the only time I've ever wanted an iris or dimming system for a game.

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Does it at least do full fade to black on loading screens? Thats the only time I've ever wanted an iris or dimming system for a game.

Yes, yes...I'd like to know that too.

Also, if anyone knows, will the newer, the LK990, have an active dimming algo not unlike the new HT9060, where scenes like the dark scenes Woofer posted should look noticeably better. I know the HT9060 with active dimming measured close to 5K:1, but with the high ANSI contrast, high brightness, and precision and lens of the LK, that number should be enough to get the machine where I can like it altogether.
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Yes, yes...I'd like to know that too.

Also, if anyone knows, will the newer, the LK990, have an active dimming algo not unlike the new HT9060, where scenes like the dark scenes Woofer posted should look noticeably better. I know the HT9060 with active dimming measured close to 5K:1, but with the high ANSI contrast, high brightness, and precision and lens of the LK, that number should be enough to get the machine where I can like it altogether.
Based on the marketing info I could find I think the lk970/lk990 will be similar if not identical in this regard as the lk970 already has a dimming system despite some saying otherwise.
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post #1009 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 07:57 AM
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@woofer Was a basic brightness and contrast calibration at least done?

Based on your photo's it looks as if the LK970 was significantly crushing blacks. Not every projector can be set it and forget it.

Maybe the JVC on AUTO accepts 0-255 and maybe the BenQ was only accepting 16-235 and if your setup was calibrated to show black at 0 vs 16 this could be the net result.

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I think the biggest difference between the 970 and the 990 is the 990 has support for BT2020 for HDR.
Why is the 970 a higher cost?

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post #1011 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Yes u are totally right, i m a gamer and its one of the main reasons i bought the LK970, games usually dont have the black floor of movies and even on my OLED they dont look black so they benefit the most from what this projector has, it is actually stunning while gaming specially if u have high end pc and feed it native 4k.
Does it at least do full fade to black on loading screens? Thats the only time I've ever wanted an iris or dimming system for a game.
No it doesnt do full fade to black on a total black screen.

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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Does it at least do full fade to black on loading screens? Thats the only time I've ever wanted an iris or dimming system for a game.

Yes, yes...I'd like to know that too.

Also, if anyone knows, will the newer, the LK990, have an active dimming algo not unlike the new HT9060, where scenes like the dark scenes Woofer posted should look noticeably better. I know the HT9060 with active dimming measured close to 5K:1, but with the high ANSI contrast, high brightness, and precision and lens of the LK, that number should be enough to get the machine where I can like it altogether.
Aztar keep in mind those dark scenes look way better with calibration , cause in the pics they crushing a lot of details and look awful.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Why is the 970 a higher cost?
You copied my post before I could delete it. The 9060 has BT2020 support for HDR. I do not know if the LK990 has BT2020 support. I have not been able to find it listed for the LK990. BenQ only list 92% for Rec709 for the LK990?

"LK990’s powerful BlueCore laser projection utilizes a dual color wheel system to produce unparalleled color performance by increasing color ratios and purity of RGBY color while achieving 92% of Rec.709 color coverage, dramatically enhancing color saturation to ensure superior viewing experiences."

https://business-display.benq.com/en...ors/lk990.html
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post #1014 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 08:27 AM
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This is an excellent point

In fact, I would go so far as to say that, all things considered, in order to properly evaluate the video performance of these projectors, especially considering both the ON/OFF contrast performance and the high lumens light output, IMO a grey screen is not just recommended but essential.

Because, without a doubt, a grey screen material is the correct and best choice of screen material to attain the best video performance from these projectors, and given the high lumens light output there is more than sufficient light output to sacrifice by using such a screen material in return for a deepened black floor, which indubitably will help to offset the low native ON/OFF contrast performance.

Therefore, a white screen material is definitely the wrong choice for these projectors, if you care about attaining the best video performance

Otherwise, it's kinda like testing a high performance car whilst using the wrong choice of tyres, and then criticizing its road handling performance...

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Surely this only holds true in an environment where there is significant ambient light pollution, either from the projector itself bouncing off the room walls and back to the screen, or from fixed ambient light sources in the room? If the room is a black hole, all you're doing is lowering the peak white and black floor together, to no contrast benefit. Sure, you'll get a black level bump, but you could have also achieved that by reducing laser power or sticking an ND filter in front of the lens (though the latter might bring an ANSI sacrifice).

I don't get there being any benefit of a grey screen in what would be classed as a good room for contrast.
Absolutely correct that this will be lowering both the black floor in addition to the white level, which is why I specifically said "for a deepened black floor" and NOT 'for increased contrast performance'

There is absolutely zero improvement with respect to the dynamic range / contrast ratio itself. However, using a grey screen material will deepen the black floor, in addition to lowering the peak white level, without any of the reduction in contrast that might result from lowering the laser level. Consequently, this theoretically should produce improved black levels in combination with slightly higher contrast as compared with if you were to simply reduce the laser level setting


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post #1015 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 08:43 AM
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Spent the majority of today with some HT friends comparing the LK970 . We had my Z1/RS4500 / X9900/ X7500 and my friends Sony 760ES. .

The LK970 CAN put out a truly truly "Stunning" image .....with a "Caveat" ..... The "Caveat" being the material has to NOT be comprised ( or very minimal ) of LOW APL Scenes!

There is no way of saying otherwise, but the LOW APL Black level is VERY POOR . Put this aspect aside just for a moment because on material that doesn't fall into that APL level the image is superb.


Some points..

Sharpness / Perceived .... The lens on the LK970 top notch, on many occasions it "appears" sharper than my Z1/RS4500. It IS substantially sharper than the SONY 760ES and embarrass the 2 E-Shift projectors!

Brightness... It lights up my 143" cope screen from 20ft with ease..... It is substantially brighter than my Z1/RS4500 .. 5000 lumens vs 3000 lumens.

Noise.... Its louder than my Z1 on MED Laser, and quieter than my Z1 on HIGH Laser.

My friend who owns the SONY 760ES ( he also has an X9500) loved the LK970... even after seeing its lacklustre LOW APL peformance , he stated he would take the LK970 over his 760ES because of the other good aspects of the LK970.

Myself....i "Defiantly Defiantly " prefer the LOW APL performance of my Z1/RS4500 over the LK970 , but in other areas i really like the LK970 ....on some material i preferred it to my Z1/RS4500..

The LK970 is areal conundrum...... On one hand it can look "Abysmal!!! " but on the other it can look truly "Stunning"
Well, that's been the problem with DLP for 17 years, with a few exceptions. Nothing new there. Come to Cedia - we will show you lots of DLP projectors that look great with bright scenes, and suck with dark scenes. 20,000 lumen laser ones even !
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post #1016 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 08:51 AM
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This is definitely the case. Dave,Tnaik and I could speak to that. However, it takes time with the unit to totally dial everything in. In my opinion, Woofer has done a great job giving the board a taste of the LK970’s relative performance. Remember us owners have already has 6 to 8 month with these units. Dave is probably well over a year. Overall, crushing blacks is not really something prevalent with this unit. Low apl scenes under 1% will always be the Achilles heel for this unit but it can be optimized. If anything you will end up with increased detail due to the gamma response of these units.


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Does it at least do full fade to black on loading screens? Thats the only time I've ever wanted an iris or dimming system for a game.

Yes, yes...I'd like to know that too.

Also, if anyone knows, will the newer, the LK990, have an active dimming algo not unlike the new HT9060, where scenes like the dark scenes Woofer posted should look noticeably better. I know the HT9060 with active dimming measured close to 5K:1, but with the high ANSI contrast, high brightness, and precision and lens of the LK, that number should be enough to get the machine where I can like it altogether.
Aztar keep in mind those dark scenes look way better with calibration , cause in the pics they crushing a lot of details and look awful.
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post #1017 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 08:52 AM
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A few factors with respect to image perception can be happening as has already been said, but another one that may actually help with an ND filter is that at certain image sizes, the blacks can appear to be reduced more than the whites appear to have been dimmed.

For example, with a 1080 Sony 40 on a 3m wide screen, adding an ND just appeared to dim everything equally. But by reducing the image down to 106" diagonal 16:9 (same screen, room, seating distance etc), the blacks appeared to have been dimmed more than the whites. It's just a difference in perception, though in real terms everything has been dimmed the same.

When I first saw a Sim2 720 C3X it was very bright but the blacks looked a lot darker than they measured when compared to another far less bright projector.

In those cases it seems to be the differences in how our eyes work when presented with brighter images, larger fields of view and perhaps if our eyes are moving from one range of operation to another(scotopic, mesopic, photopic), but that's a guess. That does appear to happen when we go from a light room into a darker room like a cinema - it takes our eyes a while to adapt, but once in that mode, our contrast range is still very high but has to move to a lower adaptive range.

With brighter DLPs that can do HDR, I wonder if some people would want to use filters to get the SDR range closer to cinema levels (14fL +or- tolerance) and improve black levels at the same time, and then remove the filter for an improved HDR experience with respect to highlights etc.
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post #1018 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 08:59 AM
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No RBE....from what i understand its NOT an issue with either Laser or LED based DLP,s
I saw RBE on the Barco Balder $80K single chip DLP laser projector at Cedia, so that's not correct.
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post #1019 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 09:13 AM
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This is an excellent point

In fact, I would go so far as to say that, all things considered, in order to properly evaluate the video performance of these projectors, especially considering both the ON/OFF contrast performance and the high lumens light output, IMO a grey screen is not just recommended but essential.

Because, without a doubt, a grey screen material is the correct and best choice of screen material to attain the best video performance from these projectors, and given the high lumens light output there is more than sufficient light output to sacrifice by using such a screen material in return for a deepened black floor, which indubitably will help to offset the low native ON/OFF contrast performance.

Therefore, a white screen material is definitely the wrong choice for these projectors, if you care about attaining the best video performance

Otherwise, it's kinda like testing a high performance car whilst using the wrong choice of tyres, and then criticizing its road handling performance...

So you're saying I need to replace my StudioTek 130 with a gray screen to use one of these ? Not that I need this many lumens to begin with, but that seems like moving backwards to me.
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post #1020 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 09:18 AM
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I saw RBE on the Barco Balder $80K single chip DLP laser projector at Cedia, so that's not correct.
Yep, we repeatedly saw it on that projector and I usually do not see RBE. Never saw RBE on the two Marantz DLP's or the Planar DLP that I owned.
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