BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 35 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1021 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Spent the majority of today with some HT friends comparing the LK970 . We had my Z1/RS4500 / X9900/ X7500 and my friends Sony 760ES. .

The LK970 CAN put out a truly truly "Stunning" image .....with a "Caveat" ..... The "Caveat" being the material has to NOT be comprised ( or very minimal ) of LOW APL Scenes!

There is no way of saying otherwise, but the LOW APL Black level is VERY POOR . Put this aspect aside just for a moment because on material that doesn't fall into that APL level the image is superb.

Some points..

Sharpness / Perceived .... The lens on the LK970 top notch, on many occasions it "appears" sharper than my Z1/RS4500. It IS substantially sharper than the SONY 760ES and embarrass the 2 E-Shift projectors!

Brightness... It lights up my 143" cope screen from 20ft with ease..... It is substantially brighter than my Z1/RS4500 .. 5000 lumens vs 3000 lumens.

Noise.... Its louder than my Z1 on MED Laser, and quieter than my Z1 on HIGH Laser.

My friend who owns the SONY 760ES ( he also has an X9500) loved the LK970... even after seeing its lacklustre LOW APL peformance , he stated he would take the LK970 over his 760ES because of the other good aspects of the LK970.

Myself....i "Defiantly Defiantly " prefer the LOW APL performance of my Z1/RS4500 over the LK970 , but in other areas i really like the LK970 ....on some material i preferred it to my Z1/RS4500..

The LK970 is areal conundrum...... On one hand it can look "Abysmal!!! " but on the other it can look truly "Stunning"

I think we are all looking for the perfect projector , which i dont think exists. ALL of the projectors here have strong and weak points...ALL the projectors here produced VERY enjoyable images..

Some will write the LK970 off due to it being DLP and having POOR APL Black level performance......fair enough.....thats what Personal Preferences are all about..

Me..... I very much like the LK970

OH..... @Dave Harper I am truly truly sorry but we DID do a split screen shot of "Interstellar" @markmon1

A few pics below...
How many foot lamberts are you getting with the BenQ on those screen shots ?

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post #1022 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 10:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post
The differences in blacks and depth in the mid to bright scenes are very unlikely to be caused by the ANSI contrast. That's differences in gamma calibration. It's very obvious that the BenQ is running with a much higher gamma. Calibrate them the same and i'll bet these differences go away. Thats also why you get the black crush in the darkest black panter scene (gamma too high for the BenQ projector contrast to resolve the lower grey steps).

I can see what you’re saying, but that’s pretty hard to know by only looking at a picture on the internet. Too many variables involved here. You’d have to meter it there.


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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
I agree the pics look a little off.
Probably woofer didnt have much time to properly calibrate it, on mine it looks very different and more natural, i will post after work in 4-5 hours the same pics he took, i already posted the dark scenes so u can already see how different they are.

Yes same here. Mine looks extremely natural and realistic. That’s actually one of the strengths I like on this.

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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Yes, yes...I'd like to know that too.



Also, if anyone knows, will the newer, the LK990, have an active dimming algo not unlike the new HT9060, where scenes like the dark scenes Woofer posted should look noticeably better. I know the HT9060 with active dimming measured close to 5K:1, but with the high ANSI contrast, high brightness, and precision and lens of the LK, that number should be enough to get the machine where I can like it altogether.

They’re already “noticeably better” if setup better first. Why are you using woofer’s black scene images to judge? I posted mine which are much better and I’ve had this thing for many months, tweaking and calibrating. He’s only had his for a couple days and clearly something isn’t right with his setup compared to mine.

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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
Ah - this brought back a memory



I did recall that at times the color on the 970 could seem overblown - almost cartoonish in intensity with noticeable posterisation/banding.







The Z1 seems more natural - more like my 760ES.





That said, from memory... I think the 990 didn't exhibit this issue.

I had many times in my tweaking sessions gotten to an end result that had some banding, solarization and posterization, but I was able to totally get rid of it all by further tweaking or redoing it using another approach. In fact there are some old posts here that show this. If there’s banding or anything in his images, it’s due to setup. Same with the “cartoonish colors”.
@woofer , can you try taking the MadVR out of the equation and just using the UB9000’s features like dynamic tone mapping and HDR Optimizer? That’s pretty much the setup I had when creating my settings using the little brother UB820. Can you post the settings from your 9000 and MadVR too?
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post #1023 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 10:16 AM
 
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Is your goal here just to troll in and post negative comment after negative comment on something you’ve never seen before? Is that to somehow justify your expensive purchase? Maybe post something a little more helpful next time.

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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Well, that's been the problem with DLP for 17 years, with a few exceptions. Nothing new there. Come to Cedia - we will show you lots of DLP projectors that look great with bright scenes, and suck with dark scenes. 20,000 lumen laser ones even !
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I saw RBE on the Barco Balder $80K single chip DLP laser projector at Cedia, so that's not correct.
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So you're saying I need to replace my StudioTek 130 with a gray screen to use one of these ? Not that I need this many lumens to begin with, but that seems like moving backwards to me.
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post #1024 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Is your goal here just to troll in and post negative comment after negative comment on something you’ve never seen before? Is that to somehow justify your expensive purchase? Maybe post something a little more helpful next time.

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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Well, that's been the problem with DLP for 17 years, with a few exceptions. Nothing new there. Come to Cedia - we will show you lots of DLP projectors that look great with bright scenes, and suck with dark scenes. 20,000 lumen laser ones even ! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
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I saw RBE on the Barco Balder $80K single chip DLP laser projector at Cedia, so that's not correct.
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
So you're saying I need to replace my StudioTek 130 with a gray screen to use one of these ? [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG] Not that I need this many lumens to begin with, but that seems like moving backwards to me.
I am not sure stating factual points is trolling?
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post #1025 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Is your goal here just to troll in and post negative comment after negative comment on something you’ve never seen before? Is that to somehow justify your expensive purchase? Maybe post something a little more helpful next time.
If I didn't care about the performance of dark scenes in movies, I'd already have a real native 4K 3 chip DLP. They throw an outstanding picture - on bright scenes. Anyway, no motorized lens controls is a deal killer for me on these. But no - I don't need to justify the fact I bought an RS4500 any more than I need to justify owning over 280 bottles of wine that cost more than $100.00 each or owning a dozen pistols. I could care less what anyone else thinks. I have exactly what I want.
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post #1026 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
I am not sure stating factual points is trolling?
An opinion based on facts and 17 years of hobbyist and A/V industry experience someone doesn't like = trolling. It's unfortunate. Sorry Dave.

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post #1027 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
They’re already “noticeably better” if setup better first. Why are you using woofer’s black scene images to judge? I posted mine which are much better and I’ve had this thing for many months, tweaking and calibrating. He’s only had his for a couple days and clearly something isn’t right with his setup compared to mine.
Of course you have...Okay, so here's why. I was just thinking worst case scenario if I got it and basic out of the box settings looked like that. I will say this: going by Woofer's pictures, it's bizarre but the RS4500 in those pics looks somewhat soft compared to the LK970.
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post #1028 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 11:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
If I didn't care about the performance of dark scenes in movies, I'd already have a real native 4K 3 chip DLP. They throw an outstanding picture - on bright scenes. Anyway, no motorized lens controls is a deal killer for me on these. But no - I don't need to justify the fact I bought an RS4500 any more than I need to justify owning over 280 bottles of wine that cost more than $100.00 each or owning a dozen pistols. I could care less what anyone else thinks. I have exactly what I want.

OK I get that, but bring something else to the table other than rehashing the same old preconceived diatribe that’s been said a thousand times already and applied as if you’ve seen the other attributes of the model being discussed which may have more good attributes that overshadow that.

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I am not sure stating factual points is trolling?

I think it is when that’s all you post without any contextual information to the topic of the thread at hand.
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post #1029 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 11:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
An opinion based on facts and 17 years of hobbyist and A/V industry experience someone doesn't like = trolling. It's unfortunate. Sorry Dave.

Well I have over 30+ years experience, what’s your point? I don’t care if you had 1,000 years experience, you haven’t seen this one.

Read my reply above explaining what I was getting at, Craig.
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post #1030 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 11:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Of course you have...Okay, so here's why. I was just thinking worst case scenario if I got it and basic out of the box settings looked like that. I will say this: going by Woofer's pictures, it's bizarre but the RS4500 in those pics looks somewhat soft compared to the LK970.

What’s “bizarre” about it? That’s just the way it is, just as everyone is comparing the difference in black levels.
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post #1031 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
What’s “bizarre” about it? That’s just the way it is, just as everyone is comparing the difference in black levels.
XPR 4k is nearly indistinguishable from native 4K, sharpness wise, so everyone should have expected the DLP to have a sharpness advantage. Would love to see them both calibrated, so that the calibration differences would be leveled out.
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post #1032 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 01:37 PM
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Once again ....good "old" AVS ..

My next few comments are more than likely going to piss off more people than i would like, but here goes..

It seems that sometimes here on this forum we can discuss ANY projector we want with "praise" as long as its initials are JVC or SONY !

I have owned JVC X5000/X7000/X7500/X9500 ..and currently own X9900 and Z1/RS4500.

Over the past few months my opinion ( and we are all allowed one) is that JVC has lost the plot with QC... I would NOT purchase or own a new model JVC at this moment in time..

For myself that has only ever considered as of late JVC or SONY as an option for projection . I think its fantastic that "another" option...in this case BenQ , can offer a projector that can produce an amazing image.

The BenQ has faults...BUT so does EVERY other projector that i have owned...including my JVC Z1/RS4500 that is AUD$40K!

Regarding my "Review" as some have put. I stated initially that that it isnt a Review" as such , but more just myself and my HT friends impressions......again the are only meant to give "some idea" of the comparison.

Again as i said ....."i will leave a review for the "EXPERTS".

@Dave Harper i think that is what you misunderstood about me with your "Hidden Agenda" comment and WHY it pissed me off so much.

I would like nothing more than to see another manufacture "Stick it to " the big boys ( JVC SONY in this case) .

Back to the LK970 .....i will GLADLY take any advice on improving the bottom end performance....because this is the only real area i have an issue with...
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post #1033 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
What’s “bizarre” about it? That’s just the way it is, just as everyone is comparing the difference in black levels.
I understand, but the RS4500 is reported to have one of the best lenses and of course MSRP priced at $30K..

Anyway, I will say that the difference in sharpness between the two is not as disparate as the difference in black levels, going by Woofer's pics; but the LK's blacks definitely look better in your pictures.
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post #1034 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Once again ....good "old" AVS ..

My next few comments are more than likely going to piss off more people than i would like, but here goes..

It seems that sometimes here on this forum we can discuss ANY projector we want with "praise" as long as its initials are JVC or SONY !

I have owned JVC X5000/X7000/X7500/X9500 ..and currently own X9900 and Z1/RS4500.

Over the past few months my opinion ( and we are all allowed one) is that JVC has lost the plot with QC... I would NOT purchase or own a new model JVC at this moment in time..

For myself that has only ever considered as of late JVC or SONY as an option for projection . I think its fantastic that "another" option...in this case BenQ , can offer a projector that can produce an amazing image.

The BenQ has faults...BUT so does EVERY other projector that i have owned...including my JVC Z1/RS4500 that is AUD$40K!

Regarding my "Review" as some have put. I stated initially that that it isnt a Review" as such , but more just myself and my HT friends impressions......again the are only meant to give "some idea" of the comparison.

Again as i said ....."i will leave a review for the "EXPERTS".

@Dave Harper i think that is what you misunderstood about me with your "Hidden Agenda" comment and WHY it pissed me off so much.

I would like nothing more than to see another manufacture "Stick it to " the big boys ( JVC SONY in this case) .

Back to the LK970 .....i will GLADLY take any advice on improving the bottom end performance....because this is the only real area i have an issue with...
I think JVC does the best blacks in the price range; but high contrast down low is just one of the elements that make up a good image.

I know that I, and many others, prefer Sony to JVC. With that being said, I too would love to see another option that has a solid state light engine, high brightness, reference sharpness, and excellent motion handling which all seem to be in this BenQ.
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post #1035 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
I think its fantastic that "another" option...in this case BenQ , can offer a projector that can produce an amazing image.
Great stuff. So here's the $64,000 question (remember that show?). Having seen both the JVC RS4500 and the BenQ LK970 firsthand, which projector's lens do you prefer?

In the meantime, I'm going to be doing some research on a gray/dark gray screen.
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post #1036 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 02:01 PM
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I understand, but the RS4500 is reported to have one of the best lenses and of course MSRP priced at $30K..

Anyway, I will say that the difference in sharpness between the two is not as disparate as the difference in black levels, going by Woofer's pics; but the LK's blacks definitely look better in your pictures.

Sorry late to the game guys but can you tell me where to find the pics. Also, I am trying to find the specs on the 970. Is it a true 4K laser projector? What is difference between the 970 and the 990?
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post #1037 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 02:04 PM
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having seen both the jvc rs4500 and the benq lk970 firsthand, which projector's lens do you prefer?
:
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post #1038 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 02:05 PM
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Sorry late to the game guys but can you tell me where to find the pics. Also, I am trying to find the specs on the 970. Is it a true 4K laser projector? What is difference between the 970 and the 990?
pics are above...yes true laser...difference as far as I know is that the LK990 adds 3D, HDR, 1000 more lumens, and possibly....possibly a clear slice to its wheel for more brightness and which may or may not impact its color width as compared to the LK 970, but again I'm really not sure just about all that last part ...just going on some discussions of maybe.
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lk970
Wow! So much for all that talk about heavy expense related to great glass since we know what the LK970 sells for.
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post #1040 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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Good to hear some new observations. The LK lens is great. So is the RS 4500 lens. I think not dealing with convergence helps. Usually when a manufacturer will gives the mtf rating of the lens they know it is good. 93 Lp/mm is quite high; to be honest probably higher than what they need to fully resolve the native resolution of the unit. In my opinion this is why it does so well for full 4k.


Now in terms of cost, I wouldn’t be surprised if BenQ didn’t volume leverage a manufacturer for a custom lens at a reasonable cost to them. The have a lot of market share around the world.

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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
lk970 [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Wow! So much for all that talk about heavy expense related to great glass since we know what the LK970 sells for. <img src="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/AVSForum/smilies/tango_face_smile.png" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />

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post #1041 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 02:25 PM
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This is an excellent point

In fact, I would go so far as to say that, all things considered, in order to properly evaluate the video performance of these projectors, especially considering both the ON/OFF contrast performance and the high lumens light output, IMO a grey screen is not just recommended but essential.

Because, without a doubt, a grey screen material is the correct and best choice of screen material to attain the best video performance from these projectors, and given the high lumens light output there is more than sufficient light output to sacrifice by using such a screen material in return for a deepened black floor, which indubitably will help to offset the low native ON/OFF contrast performance.

Therefore, a white screen material is definitely the wrong choice for these projectors, if you care about attaining the best video performance

Otherwise, it's kinda like testing a high performance car whilst using the wrong choice of tyres, and then criticizing its road handling performance...

Nigel, Craig, Dave:

Setting aside any bickering, how important is a grey screen?. I’ve got an ST100 Screen that is about to go into production - Based on the recommendations of Stewart. (Da-Lite also recommended a white screen.) I might just be able to get Stewart to switch it to Fire Hawk. Do you really believe that it would help?
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post #1042 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
pics are above...yes true laser...difference as far as I know is that the LK990 adds 3D, HDR, 1000 more lumens, and possibly....possibly a clear slice to its wheel for more brightness and which may or may not impact its color width as compared to the LK 970, but again I'm really not sure just about all that last part ...just going on some discussions of maybe.



Thanks for the info. So the LK970 is native 4k but doesn't support HDR and the LK990 is native 4k but does support HDR. OK got it. Just can't find much info about the 970 online.
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post #1043 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
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pics are above...yes true laser...difference as far as I know is that the LK990 adds 3D, HDR, 1000 more lumens, and possibly....possibly a clear slice to its wheel for more brightness and which may or may not impact its color width as compared to the LK 970, but again I'm really not sure just about all that last part ...just going on some discussions of maybe.



Thanks for the info. So the LK970 is native 4k but doesn't support HDR and the LK990 is native 4k but does support HDR. OK got it. Just can't find much info about the 970 online.
Technically both arent native 4K , but being a DLP with an excellent lens make it as good and sometimes better than other native 4k projectors, so that is not an issue. For the rest you are right
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post #1044 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Technically both arent native 4K , but being a DLP with an excellent lens make it as good and sometimes better than other native 4k projectors, so that is not an issue. For the rest you are right

Oh ok, interesting. Well I think you are correct as seeing how some users, with a chance to see the unit are raving about the sharpness and clarity of this projector.
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post #1045 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
So you're saying I need to replace my StudioTek 130 with a gray screen to use one of these ? Not that I need this many lumens to begin with, but that seems like moving backwards to me.
I don't feel that matching a projector to a screen that performs better with it is a step backwards.
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post #1046 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by silver700 View Post
Thanks for the info. So the LK970 is native 4k but doesn't support HDR and the LK990 is native 4k but does support HDR. OK got it. Just can't find much info about the 970 online.
It is neither native 1080P or 2160P. Its native panels are 1528 and shifted with an actuator, so 1528x2 and is able to output 8.3 million pixels onscreen.
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post #1047 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Why are you using woofer’s black scene images to judge? I posted mine which are much better and I’ve had this thing for many months, tweaking and calibrating. He’s only had his for a couple days and clearly something isn’t right with his setup compared to mine.
Your photos look tons better.

Well you cant really use photos of an image to judge things like black levels and colors. But the benefit of @woofer comparison is that he used the same camera and camera settings to photo two projectors on same content and posted them both. Yours are just a photo of scenes with nothing to compare to. So I think it makes woofer's more valuable in that respect.

For example, your photo of that space shot looks as good as arrow's photo of a similar shot on the Christie, but I guarantee both those projectors don't perform the same on that particular image. This is why the comparative photos are so awesome.
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post #1048 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't feel that matching a projector to a screen that performs better with it is a step backwards.
Agreed. If the projector has lumens galore and the screen, although not white, is color neutral, why not.
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post #1049 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SaulP View Post
Nigel, Craig, Dave:

Setting aside any bickering, how important is a grey screen?. I’ve got an ST100 Screen that is about to go into production - Based on the recommendations of Stewart. (Da-Lite also recommended a white screen.) I might just be able to get Stewart to switch it to Fire Hawk. Do you really believe that it would help?
There are two different aspects via which a grey screen should deepen the black floor with these projectors.

Firstly, if you do not have a perfect absolutely blacked out environment, then a grey screen which is of the kind that is highly ambient light rejecting will reduce the magnitude of reduction/worsening of contrast and hence black levels due to environmental light and reflections. Wherein, given the low ON/OFF contrast performance of these projectors you want to avoid where possible any further worsening of the black floor.

Secondly, with numerous laser projectors, lowering the laser level actually reduces/worsens contrast performance, because often the white level and black level are not in fact reduced proportionately. Whereas, a grey screen of the sort that is a negative gain will deepen the black floor in conjunction with reducing the peak white level, whilst retaining the same level of contrast performance. Hence, due to the high lumens light output of these projectors there is more than enough to sacrifice a small amount via making use of a negative gain grey screen, and thereby deepen the black floor.

That said, it is worth noting that ambient light rejecting type grey screens almost always skew the chroma, making projector calibration a necessity, if you care about accurate color performance. However, there are numerous grey screens that are negative gain but grayscale neutral, meaning that they should deepen the black levels but without skewing the chroma out of whack.

Furthermore, whilst a grey screen will deepen the black floor it is important to have realistic expectations, in that the difference will be slight, so don't be expecting to transform a 2,000:1 ON/OFF contrast black floor into being equivalent to 250,000:1 ON/OFF contrast black floor. It will improve the black levels, but only slightly; however, the difference should most certainly be perceivable

My advice is to obtain a sample of an appropriate grey screen material or materials and assess how these perform, before choosing with material to opt for

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Last edited by ARROW-AV; 03-15-2019 at 04:35 PM.
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post #1050 of 2564 Old 03-15-2019, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Your photos look tons better.

Well you cant really use photos of an image to judge things like black levels and colors. But the benefit of @woofer comparison is that he used the same camera and camera settings to photo two projectors on same content and posted them both. Yours are just a photo of scenes with nothing to compare to. So I think it makes woofer's more valuable in that respect.

For example, your photo of that space shot looks as good as arrow's photo of a similar shot on the Christie, but I guarantee both those projectors don't perform the same on that particular image. This is why the comparative photos are so awesome.
Guys, Woofer doesnt do colour calibration, not everybody knows how, so you need to cut him some slack there.

Hopefully he can send this unit over to me, I think thats the idea anyway in the next week or two, when he does, I will calbrate it for him (I am sure he will like the sound of that) and I should be abe to do the same exact comparison except against my X9500. I will take pics the same way, anybody that has seen the pics I take, I think you can agree it will put all this BS to bed, what you see in my pics is what it looks like in real life. I actually have no doubt the differences are going to be about the same as what he has posted.

The gamma does look a little high on woofers images, and blacks a little crushed, but I will have a chat to him separately about it and confirm some settings, but its not his first rodeo guys, when you are used to super high contrast, its not a stretch to conclude this is in fact likely the real difference between a 4k:1 vs 150k:1 projector. Because thats really what it is. If gamma was too high then the mid APL level shots will look washed out too, when in fact, they look more punchy on the LK images.

Mark your 285 vs 4500 images show a similar but slightly less intense difference...

Interestingly I actually own a cinema ND filter, so it would be interesting to use that on the LK and then brightness match it with the X9500 to drastically reduce the black floor. I am not sure the laser level setting will equally reduce the black floor. At least on the laser Sony, we know that is the case.
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