BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
There has to be losses from the camera too. In person these things always look better.. obviously.. It's 'live vs a photo of live'
Definitely...
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post #1112 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Once again ....good "old" AVS ..

My next few comments are more than likely going to piss off more people than i would like, but here goes..

It seems that sometimes here on this forum we can discuss ANY projector we want with "praise" as long as its initials are JVC or SONY !

I have owned JVC X5000/X7000/X7500/X9500 ..and currently own X9900 and Z1/RS4500.

Over the past few months my opinion ( and we are all allowed one) is that JVC has lost the plot with QC... I would NOT purchase or own a new model JVC at this moment in time..

For myself that has only ever considered as of late JVC or SONY as an option for projection . I think its fantastic that "another" option...in this case BenQ , can offer a projector that can produce an amazing image.

The BenQ has faults...BUT so does EVERY other projector that i have owned...including my JVC Z1/RS4500 that is AUD$40K!

Regarding my "Review" as some have put. I stated initially that that it isnt a Review" as such , but more just myself and my HT friends impressions......again the are only meant to give "some idea" of the comparison.

Again as i said ....."i will leave a review for the "EXPERTS".

@Dave Harper i think that is what you misunderstood about me with your "Hidden Agenda" comment and WHY it pissed me off so much.

I would like nothing more than to see another manufacture "Stick it to " the big boys ( JVC SONY in this case) .

Back to the LK970 .....i will GLADLY take any advice on improving the bottom end performance....because this is the only real area i have an issue with...
More like, as long as it's a 'JVC'

I have found that there are the usual suspects that goes around pouring cold water on anything other than a JVC... Some obviously with an agenda,.....
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post #1113 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
All the 4K DLP's with good lens like like that, sharpness wise. As I said, it is not a lens advantage it is a technology advantage, as far as sharpness goes. As with every technology, there are tradeoffs.


Have you seen the xpr4 vivitek 2288? Same chipset. But looks softer than my Sony 760ES. or even against the Benq W1700
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post #1114 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Sure, if you have a dynamic laser that you're using, and that has a fixed floor for how low it can drop, then you'd be better off using an external means of limiting the light output. For many who already have a screen though (assuming they don't need the other benefits due to room reflectance or high ambient light) they can likely equally achieve it with their current screen and an ND filter to reduce the light output.

At least with the filter you'd have the option of moving it out of the way (though tricky unless you put it on a slide of some sort), with the grey screen you'll be stuck with the attenuation from the screen for all modes.

If it really is the case that this is what folk want to do with these projectors, it sounds like there is equally a case for making the same projector with a light engine with much less output.

It's really surprising they've not considered adding an optical iris in the lens as it is such an obvious easy win.
Worth noting that most people do not in fact have 100% perfectly blacked out environments, meaning that environmental light and reflections WILL be affecting the contrast and black levels performance; where, a gray screen that is ambient light rejecting will not only prevent any reduction in contrast performance when lowering the laser level setting but also help to minimize reduction of contrast and worsened black levels due to an imperfect environment. Wherein, given the low native ON/OFF contrast performance of these projectors it is important to achieve the highest contrast and best black level performance possible, hence my recommendation regards using a gray screen. An ND filter is not going to do anything to help reduce the contrast reduction and raising of the black floor resulting from an imperfect environment; whereas, an ambient light rejecting gray screen will, in addition to slightly deepening the black floor

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post #1115 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 04:39 AM
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post #1116 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Woofer just sent these over to me... QBF patterns from the LK970... This is very impressive. Considering its not native 4k!

Spoiler!
That is indeed very impressive performance !

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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Paul how were the rainbows on the LK970?
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
NO rainbows whatsoever..
Other folks have and are reporting Rainbow Effect with respect to both the LK970 and LK990... which I have to say is to be expected considering it's single-chip DLP with color wheels

I will provide some further feedback regarding this myself as and when I have opportunity to personally evaluate these projectors...

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post #1117 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
tnaik4- Can you take a photo of the same dark scenes that woofer took photos of from Black Panther and Interstellar to show how they look with your settings? Just seeing if they can be improved.
Sure thing, these are the same scenes with dave's settings, i tried brightness to 42 like woofer its jusy crushing everything, i have to set mine between 48-52 depends on personal preference.
Sorry i dont have interstellar.
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post #1118 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
No rainbows on a single chip DLP, thats very odd! Do you ever see rainbows on DLP, some never do?
yes same for me , i have this unit for 4-5 months now and never noticed any RBE but i m not really sensitive to it.

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post #1119 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Waikis View Post
OK so for those wondering about the input lag, here's what I found from BenQ's site:
https://www.benq.com/en-au/support/d...faq-00048.html

59.1ms
Waikis u asked me to do this test for input lag, here are the pics compared to my Asus PG348Q monitor, the PJ is 31ms slower.
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post #1120 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Waikis u asked me to do this test for input lag, here are the pics compared to my Asus PG348Q monitor, the PJ is 31ms slower.
Very interesting, that will put the benQ at around 40ms. Someone here was told by a benq req that the input lag is around 30ms. Seems like he's right.

Pretty good news for those interested in using this for gaming

Thanks for running the test Tnaik4!
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post #1121 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It should be a matter of 20 minutes effort for someone with meters to show conclusively the existence and effectiveness of such a system. It's quite frustrating that there is so little hard factual info making it out there for these units.
All of the Laser/LED benqs in this chassis measure about 1000:1 native / 4000:1 dynamic in dimming mode. Benq business projectors often call this automatic power control while consumer projectors call it SmartEco - but based on benq marketing docs it seems like the same thing with different lingo for the business/consumer markets. I think with 990 they are now fully changing over to calling it smarteco for both markets to reduce confusuon, that is my hunch.

That type of measurement isn't all too helpful though as it doesn't speak to how effective the dimming works with real world content. For instance my Vivitek h9090 measures around the same and is extremely effective but based on some comments here I am thinking the 9060/990 is a much more conservative algorithm - which will have less artifacts but less deep blacks. You could do measurements on a range of APLs and that would be much more helpful but in the end subjective impressions seem more useful than objective where dynamic dimming is concerned as they can also speak to dimming artifacts measurements don't.

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post #1122 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I will be absolutely amazed if the LKs measure 4,000:1 native ON/OFF contrast... but let's see


When I obtain my units I can do precisely that for you using a gray screen material that I have here which is circa 0.7 gain

That said, remember it won't actually increase the native ON/OFF contrast performance, but simply lower both the black floor in conjunction with also lowering the peak white level as well; wherein, the ratio between the two should remain the same... but it will make the blacks a bit blacker nonetheless

Definitely interested in seeing this one too. As you know, my setup is intended to be used in non-light-controlled scenarios occasionally, and I want a large screen (160"-170" diagonal). The extra brightness and lower cost of this projector is interesting. Combined with something like a 0.8 gain AT Slate screen (screen innovations) it could be the best of both worlds for my use case.
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post #1123 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
All of the Laser/LED benqs in this chassis measure about 1000:1 native / 4000:1 dynamic in dimming mode. Benq business projectors often call this automatic power control while consumer projectors call it SmartEco - but based on benq marketing docs it seems like the same thing with different lingo for the business/consumer markets. I think with 990 they are now fully changing over to calling it smarteco for both markets to reduce confusuon, that is my hunch.

That type of measurement isn't all too helpful though as it doesn't speak to how effective the dimming works with real world content. For instance my Vivitek h9090 measures around the same and is extremely effective but based on some comments here I am thinking the 9060/990 is a much more conservative algorithm - which will have less artifacts but less deep blacks. You could do measurements on a range of APLs and that would be much more helpful but in the end subjective impressions seem more useful than objective where dynamic dimming is concerned as they can also speak to dimming artifacts measurements don't.
On the 970, does the laser have to be on full output to be able to use Smart eco? Dylan reported that Smart eco only worked on the 990 when laser was set to 100%.
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The 970 does not have the labeled smart eco feature. It does have automatic power control that adjust the laser power dynamically based on scene. This algorithm is active in eco and normal mode. However, it you hard set the laser power then that is what you get. If you set it at 45% laser power there is no fluctuation.


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On the 970, does the laser have to be on full output to be able to use Smart eco? Dylan reported that Smart eco only worked on the 990 when laser was set to 100%.
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post #1125 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
The 970 does not have the labeled smart eco feature. It does have automatic power control that adjust the laser power dynamically based on scene. This algorithm is active in eco and normal mode. However, it you hard set the laser power then that is what you get. If you set it at 45% laser power there is no fluctuation.
How do you set brightness on your screen for SDR?
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post #1126 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
The 970 does not have the labeled smart eco feature. It does have automatic power control that adjust the laser power dynamically based on scene. This algorithm is active in eco and normal mode. However, it you hard set the laser power then that is what you get. If you set it at 45% laser power there is no fluctuation.
If you look at BenQ's marketing their descriptions of "Automatic Power Control" and "SmartEco" are virtually identical. They even use identical graphs, etc, to show what they do. I think they were just using the marketing term "Automatic Power Control" for their business division and the marketing term "SmartEco" for their consumer division to describe the same thing - dynamic dimming.

i.e.:

Automatic Power Control (1/4 of the way down the page)
https://business-display.benq.com/en...rs/lu9235.html

SmartEco
https://www.benq.com/en-us/microsite...ech-index.html

Looks like the same thing to me, graphs show the same behavior of light output
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post #1127 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:06 AM
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For SDR, I set the power level manually based on the output I am looking for and then calibrate from there. For SDR I am using 55% laser power.


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The 970 does not have the labeled smart eco feature. It does have automatic power control that adjust the laser power dynamically based on scene. This algorithm is active in eco and normal mode. However, it you hard set the laser power then that is what you get. If you set it at 45% laser power there is no fluctuation.
How do you set brightness on your screen for SDR?
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post #1128 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:15 AM
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The glass in the Sim2 projectors is very good.

The context was great glass and low cost. The Sim2s cost north of $30,000 not unlike the MSRP of the RS4500. Also, you had asked me about 4K XPR DLPs. The Sim2s are 1080P. I can't imagine what Sim2 would charge for an XPR 1528x2 "4K" DLP. And you know I've seen really good glass DLPs; heck I even bought one of them from you. I also had the BenQ HT9050 and the Vivitek HK2299. --Mike, what is going on? Why are you downplaying the LK970??? It's really a revelation for the relative peanuts it costs...no doubt about that in my mind.
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post #1129 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
For SDR, I set the power level manually based on the output I am looking for and then calibrate from there. For SDR I am using 55% laser power.
So for SDR, you have native contrast only, no dynamic?
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post #1130 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
The context was great glass and low cost. The Sim2s cost north of $30,000 not unlike the MSRP of the RS4500. Also, you had asked me about 4K XPR DLPs. The Sim2s are 1080P. I can't imagine what Sim2 would charge for an XPR 1528x2 "4K" DLP. And you know I've seen really good glass DLPs; heck I even bought one of them from you. I also had the BenQ HT9050 and the Vivitek HK2299. --Mike, what is going on? Why are you downplaying the LK970??? It's really a revelation for the relative peanuts it costs...no doubt about that in my mind.
No, you commented that this projector was so much sharper than the other DLP's. I said this projector was no sharper than any other 4K DLP with good glass. Price was not part of the discussion, at least not on my side. Most of the DLP projectors with really good glass are expensive. The BenQ's are probably the cheapest in this category.
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post #1131 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:32 AM
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For me yes. I also have an SDR setting with eco which has some dynamic effect. However, for the output I shoot for I prefer setting the laser power manually. I may try an ND2 filter in the future so I can cut the light output that way and still have the auto power control.



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So for SDR, you have native contrast only, no dynamic?
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post #1132 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:36 AM
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So for SDR, you have native contrast only, no dynamic?
So, in short, you can only make use of the dynamic contrast functionality if the projector is operating at the maximum light output. This removes any and all flexibility with respect to on screen luminance targets whether it be SDR or HDR... meaning you have to pick your poison, namely either 4000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance but being locked into maximum light output, or 1000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance if/when you wish to have control regarding the light output

I hate to say it but IMO this is another serious negative that needs to be added to the list, further to there not being any lens memory...

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post #1133 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:41 AM
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Thanks Ruined. I agree with the 100%. It reflects what I see in use with the unit. The algorithm is not aggressive but also no artifacts are introduced. Doing the measurement at 1,2,5,10,20 and 50% apl tell the story of the unit.I have done this on my unit and have an idea where the contrast crossover is. Once Arrow does his analysis and provides numbers then it will be a different conversation. Honestly, the BenQ's are good units. They are not for everybody but they do a lot of things really well.



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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
All of the Laser/LED benqs in this chassis measure about 1000:1 native / 4000:1 dynamic in dimming mode. Benq business projectors often call this automatic power control while consumer projectors call it SmartEco - but based on benq marketing docs it seems like the same thing with different lingo for the business/consumer markets. I think with 990 they are now fully changing over to calling it smarteco for both markets to reduce confusuon, that is my hunch.

That type of measurement isn't all too helpful though as it doesn't speak to how effective the dimming works with real world content. For instance my Vivitek h9090 measures around the same and is extremely effective but based on some comments here I am thinking the 9060/990 is a much more conservative algorithm - which will have less artifacts but less deep blacks. You could do measurements on a range of APLs and that would be much more helpful but in the end subjective impressions seem more useful than objective where dynamic dimming is concerned as they can also speak to dimming artifacts measurements don't.
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post #1134 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:45 AM
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For me yes. I also have an SDR setting with eco which has some dynamic effect. However, for the output I shoot for I prefer setting the laser power manually. I may try an ND2 filter in the future so I can cut the light output that way and still have the auto power control.
That's a good idea.... and also perhaps make use of a negative gain ambient light rejecting gray screen as well, if you are not already doing so. I will have to take measurements to definitively confirm but there is probably a further reason to avoid adjusting the laser level setting, namely that it might reduce the contrast performance. This is the case with some other laser projectors. So instead of adjusting the laser level setting, making use of an ND filter in combination with an ambient light rejecting gray screen this should not only allow the dynamic contrast functionality to be used, but also eliminate any loss of contrast due to lowering the laser level setting, as well as reducing the loss of contrast and raising of the black floor due to any environmental light resulting from an imperfect environment, whilst also lowering the black floor and making the blacks slightly blacker further to the effects of the dynamic contrast

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post #1135 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
So, in short, you can only make use of the dynamic contrast functionality if the projector is operating at the maximum light output. This removes any and all flexibility with respect to on screen luminance targets whether it be SDR or HDR... meaning you have to pick your poison, namely either 4000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance but being locked into maximum light output, or 1000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance if/when you wish to have control regarding the light output

I hate to say it but IMO this is another serious negative that needs to be added to the list, further to there not being any lens memory...

It is a limitation. But what I'd like to know is do we know whether the LK970 does the same dynamic dimming as the LK990? According to Dave Harper, the LK970 doesn't do active dimming, am I correct @Dave Harper ?

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post #1136 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:55 AM
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Not sure on the 990 but on the 970 in eco or normal mode the auto power control is active.So not necessarily max lumen output only (eco and normal). The unit has some different strategies so once you have time to play with one you will understand more.



* I haven't seen it active with a manual laser setting but it is easy for me to double check. I will check power draw and report.



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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
So, in short, you can only make use of the dynamic contrast functionality if the projector is operating at the maximum light output. This removes any and all flexibility with respect to on screen luminance targets whether it be SDR or HDR... meaning you have to pick your poison, namely either 4000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance but being locked into maximum light output, or 1000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance if/when you wish to have control regarding the light output

I hate to say it but IMO this is another serious negative that needs to be added to the list, further to there not being any lens memory...

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post #1137 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
So, in short, you can only make use of the dynamic contrast functionality if the projector is operating at the maximum light output. This removes any and all flexibility with respect to on screen luminance targets whether it be SDR or HDR... meaning you have to pick your poison, namely either 4000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance but being locked into maximum light output, or 1000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance if/when you wish to have control regarding the light output

I hate to say it but IMO this is another serious negative that needs to be added to the list, further to there not being any lens memory...

I wouldn't really consider it a "negative" because the LK970/LK990 was designed to be an installation projector, people using it as a home theater projector on a small screen are kind of going beyond its intended use. So if you are going to be one of those people doing so, you may have to take steps beyond taking it out of the box and plugging it in.

As I've posted before, I believe there is a reason BenQ classifies the HT9060 as Home Theater and LK990 as Installation/Business; the HT9060 has qualities that are likable for home theater (bright enough for small/medium screens @ 1650lmns calibrated, but with low RBE and maximum noise only 32db @ high lamp); while the LK990 has the necessary 3600+lmns brightness needed for installation/large screen scenarios - at the expense of increased potential to see RBE and 37db noise @ high lamp.

So assuming you just want to take the projector out of the box and use it, IMO the end result of the comparison between the two - if I had to predict - will likely be that the HT9060 will likely have qualities that some with small/medium screens & smaller rooms may like more, while the LK990 will have qualities that some with larger screens or AT screens & larger rooms may like more that can fully utilize the brightness with the projector further from seating position. And, this would match up with why BenQ classified one as HT and the other as Installation. Perhaps the LK990 might look better in ways on smaller screens as well, but it may not be worth giving up the functional niceties of the HT9060 for that difference.

Last edited by Ruined; 03-16-2019 at 08:01 AM.
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post #1138 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
I wouldn't really consider it a "negative" because the LK970/LK990 was designed to be an installation projector, people using it as a home theater projector on a small screen are kind of going beyond its intended use. So if you are going to be one of those people doing so, you may have to take steps beyond taking it out of the box and plugging it in.

As I've posted before, I believe there is a reason BenQ classifies the HT9060 as Home Theater and LK990 as Installation/Business; the HT9060 has qualities that are likable for home theater (bright enough for small/medium screens @ 1650lmns calibrated, but with low RBE and maximum noise only 32db @ high lamp); while the LK990 has the necessary 3600+lmns brightness needed for installation/large screen scenarios - at the expense of increased potential to see RBE and 37db noise @ high lamp.

So assuming you just want to take the projector out of the box and use it, IMO the end result of the comparison between the two - if I had to predict - will likely be that the HT9060 will likely have qualities that some with small/medium screens & smaller rooms may like more, while the LK990 will have qualities that some with larger screens or AT screens & larger rooms may like more that can fully utilize the brightness with the projector further from seating position. And, this would match up with why BenQ classified one as HT and the other as Installation. Perhaps the LK990 might look better in ways on smaller screens as well, but it may not be worth giving up the functional niceties of the HT9060 for that difference.
So, when installing the projector as opposed to simply taking the projector out of the box... how does one go about switching between scope and 16:9 aspect ratios? And how does one calibrate SDR to 14 - 18 fL whilst concomitantly being able to make use of the dynamic contrast functionality and hence 4000:1 ON/OFF contrast, as opposed to just the 1000:1 native ON/OFF contrast performance? Because it is my understanding that neither the LK970 nor LK990 have zoom memory... and the dynamic contrast functionality only works when the laser level is not set manually... Or am I missing something?

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post #1139 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
No, you commented that this projector was so much sharper than the other DLP's. I said this projector was no sharper than any other 4K DLP with good glass. Price was not part of the discussion, at least not on my side. Most of the DLP projectors with really good glass are expensive. The BenQ's are probably the cheapest in this category.
I was recalling that the discussion opened with saying something like so much for good glass being expensive.
Still, the LK970 will be sharper than the Sim2 because the BenQ displays 8.3 million pixels and the Sim2 is a 1080P projector.

But I agree with you on the last two statements you made above but would add that not just DLP projectors but most "all" projector technologies with really good glass are expensive and this BenQ is probably the cheapest.
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post #1140 of 2456 Old 03-16-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
So, when installing the projector as opposed to simply taking the projector out of the box... how does one go about switching between scope and 16:9 aspect ratios?
If you have a scope screen the intended use is to buy an anamorphic lens along with the projector, which is also a better bet in terms of PQ than zooming for a DLP projector due its comparatively higher black floor. The LK990/HT9060 both have built-in permanent mounting holes out of the box for the Panamorph Paladin lens and the built-in firmware modes to accommodate a permanently mounted anamorphic lens, making the 16:9/scope switch only an instant button press away and faster than a lens memory/mechanically moving lens setup (lens memory zoom method would also have unattractive light spill unless your entire front wall is velvet). The Paladin will be an out-of-box plug-and-play solution both in terms of installation directly on projector and firmware modes - of course if you want you could buy another brand and still use the FW features but it wouldn't be as easy of a hardware installation.

Quote:
And how does one calibrate SDR to 14 - 18 fL whilst concomitantly being able to make use of the dynamic contrast functionality and hence 4000:1 ON/OFF contrast, as opposed to just the 1000:1 native ON/OFF contrast performance?
The HT9060 should have no issue with this at all, as it is their "Home Theater" projector designed for smaller/medium Home Theater screens. The LK970/LK990 is an "Installation/business projector" designed for large screens with ambient light, so if you put it in a scenario where the brightness will overwhelm the screen in SDR and want to use dynamic dimming you'd need to use an ND filter. This is what I mean by "take it out of the box" functionality. With the LK990 you are taking a 6000 lumen projector designed for ambient light installation scenarios and putting it in a dark room on a small screen, you may have to make some tweaks other than taking it out of the box.


Quote:
Because it is my understanding that neither the LK970 nor LK990 have zoom memory... and the dynamic contrast functionality only works when the laser level is not set manually... Or am I missing something?
Yes, again you are missing intended and optimal use. The LK970/LK990 are installation projectors that will require more intervention to optimally use on a small home theater screen. And, for both the HT9060/LK990 (and any DLP projector frankly) a permanently mounted anamorphic lens is the best scope solution from both a PQ and functionality perspective, with BenQ providing both the built-in hardware mount and firmware modes for plug-and-play installation and usage of the Paladin.
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Last edited by Ruined; 03-16-2019 at 09:03 AM.
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