BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Understood. It just really irks me that nobody took this or me serious for about a year until some “real” pros looked at it and gave their “blessings” just recently. I’ve been doing this crap for a LONG time, longer than almost all of those “unbiased pros”, and have been here on AVS for about 19 years and it feels like quite the slap in the face to be honest not to be taken seriously enough to warrant a look-see or the slightest of real discussions by them at all. Every single person that got one, EVERY ONE that I know had nothing but praise and said the same things I did essentially, but these so called “unbiased” folks didn’t even think to give it a second thought just because “it was a DLP so we know how it will look already”!

OK rant over. This isn’t intended to start a war, so don’t bother because I’m not responding, especially because everything I wrote is true.
Hey Dave, as a newcomer to this forum I can completely relate to what you were saying. The perception coming in is that the 'established' or respected posters, or the 'real pros' as you call them, favour the JVC's particularly, above Sony's (with not much else an option), and I do think you were a bit out on your own pushing this projector. Honestly, I figured that maybe you were just someone who tolerated lower black levels than most people seem to accept, and my guess was that I personally wouldn't agree.

I didn't doubt your sincerity at all, it's just even now - I still question if the black levels will be good. I want to see this projector though.

I think what changed, at least for me, is nothing to do with the other 'pros' looking at and gave their blessings - it's the side by side photos from Woofer. A picture tells a thousand words, and I think what you could have done is to provide more robust evidence. You've now posted the gamut graphs, and in combination with the side by sides from woofer, people take the claims and this projector much more seriously.

There is too much confirmation bias in this forum (and genre) generally, so whenever you have one person talking about positive experiences with a product they own, without tangible evidence, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I am also guilty of not knowing your track record with projectors, so that was probably another factor..

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post #1352 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post

I think what changed, at least for me, is nothing to do with the other 'pros' looking at and gave their blessings - it's the side by side photos from Woofer. A picture tells a thousand words,

Spending tomorrow doing a lot of comparisons on varied content... will have many pics .

Pics do not tell the whole story as its very hard to achieve with the camera as to what is actually projected on screen, BUT they do give a reasonable indication .
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post #1353 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Spending tomorrow doing a lot of comparisons on varied content... will have many pics .

Pics do not tell the whole story as its very hard to achieve with the camera as to what is actually projected on screen, BUT they do give a reasonable indication .
The pics cannot convey the brightness or pop. The camera will equalize brightness unless you project simultaneously onto two screens side-by-side but then you have other issues.

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post #1354 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
The 970 was 12something...

The 990 seems to be 13999 from these guys:

https://www.wavetrain.com.au/product...ser-projector/

I dont have my pricing yet on these units.
I got this prices (in Fin)
LK970 6222,40 €
LK990
7538,48 €

Quite decent i think ?



Last edited by latexii; 03-21-2019 at 04:40 AM.
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post #1355 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
The 970 was 12something...

The 990 seems to be 13999 from these guys:

https://www.wavetrain.com.au/product...ser-projector/

I dont have my pricing yet on these units.
On the 970, I guess you're talking MSRP. Otherwise, I could give you an earful on what the AUD equivalent would be but I won't 'cause someone might complain and I'd have my post deleted anyway.
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post #1356 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latexii View Post

I got this prices (in Fin)
LK970 6222,40 €
LK990
7538,48 €

Quite decent i think ?


Watch out about posting prices other than MSRP here on the forums, its not allowed.

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post #1357 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Watch out about posting prices other than MSRP here on the forums, its not allowed.
Ohh, ofc.. i just asked prices from seller who' selling Benq's but those models wasnt listed.
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post #1358 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I think the bolded part above is the absolute key to these LKs. The numbers do not tell the whole story and this is one of those models that just have to be seen properly setup to get the real true impression of its overall capabilities and total image quality. If all you do is read the specs and some other’s thoughts on it, you’ll be indecisive and unsure until you actually put one through its paces personally.
That's the problem - nobody has one to see ( until now ) except you - and you're in the middle of the Pacific ocean. And BenQ doesn't display these are Cedia except totally 1/2 ass.
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post #1359 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 09:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Hey Dave, as a newcomer to this forum I can completely relate to what you were saying. The perception coming in is that the 'established' or respected posters, or the 'real pros' as you call them, favour the JVC's particularly, above Sony's (with not much else an option), and I do think you were a bit out on your own pushing this projector. Honestly, I figured that maybe you were just someone who tolerated lower black levels than most people seem to accept, and my guess was that I personally wouldn't agree.



I didn't doubt your sincerity at all, it's just even now - I still question if the black levels will be good. I want to see this projector though.



I think what changed, at least for me, is nothing to do with the other 'pros' looking at and gave their blessings - it's the side by side photos from Woofer. A picture tells a thousand words, and I think what you could have done is to provide more robust evidence. You've now posted the gamut graphs, and in combination with the side by sides from woofer, people take the claims and this projector much more seriously.



There is too much confirmation bias in this forum (and genre) generally, so whenever you have one person talking about positive experiences with a product they own, without tangible evidence, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.



I am also guilty of not knowing your track record with projectors, so that was probably another factor..




Thanks for the great post! I agree with you. I guess the reason I personally didn’t is because I figured I knew the response it’d get if it was from me, so I didn’t bother. Which is actually kind of what happened if you go back and read the entire thread.

You will see that guys like myself, tnaik4 and 12GAGE did post some hard numbers and images and outside the regulars on this thread nobody really cared. Heck we even had a well respected Hollywood Director/Producer make a nice comment and write up and nobody seemed to bat an eye.

Like somebody said, it’s water under the bridge. Let’s move on and enjoy this fine projector now!


Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Spending tomorrow doing a lot of comparisons on varied content... will have many pics .



Pics do not tell the whole story as its very hard to achieve with the camera as to what is actually projected on screen, BUT they do give a reasonable indication .

........And neither do just reading the specs.
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post #1360 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 09:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
That's the problem - nobody has one to see ( until now ) except you - and you're in the middle of the Pacific ocean. And BenQ doesn't display these are Cedia except totally 1/2 ass.

BS. There was quite a few folks that had one. And if it was so hard, then how are all these people “suddenly “ getting and seeing them now? Heck, I just took a call from someone saying he called BenQ and they told him they’d send him one with a free 30 day return policy and no restocking fee! Only pay for return shipping!
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Javs - looking forward to your review! I love my RS-540 but find I want more brightness. I've considered going anamorphic but not sure the price/brightness ratio is worth it. I wish I had picked one up when Panamorph was having its B-stock sale...
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post #1362 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Hey Dave, as a newcomer to this forum I can completely relate to what you were saying. The perception coming in is that the 'established' or respected posters, or the 'real pros' as you call them, favour the JVC's particularly, above Sony's (with not much else an option), and I do think you were a bit out on your own pushing this projector. Honestly, I figured that maybe you were just someone who tolerated lower black levels than most people seem to accept, and my guess was that I personally wouldn't agree.

I didn't doubt your sincerity at all, it's just even now - I still question if the black levels will be good. I want to see this projector though.

I think what changed, at least for me, is nothing to do with the other 'pros' looking at and gave their blessings - it's the side by side photos from Woofer. A picture tells a thousand words, and I think what you could have done is to provide more robust evidence. You've now posted the gamut graphs, and in combination with the side by sides from woofer, people take the claims and this projector much more seriously.

There is too much confirmation bias in this forum (and genre) generally, so whenever you have one person talking about positive experiences with a product they own, without tangible evidence, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I am also guilty of not knowing your track record with projectors, so that was probably another factor..

You can come and see it here at my place Johnny as and when I receive delivery of my units. You will also be able to see how it directly compares versus the best offerings from SONY and JVC as well

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post #1363 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 12:44 PM
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post #1364 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
You can come and see it here at my place Johnny as and when I receive delivery of my units. You will also be able to see how it directly compares versus the best offerings from SONY and JVC as well

Absolutely can't wait - that's the dream
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post #1365 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 04:13 PM
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That's the problem - nobody has one to see ( until now ) except you - and you're in the middle of the Pacific ocean. And BenQ doesn't display these are Cedia except totally 1/2 ass.
You hit it on the head. The LK970 was not designed for home theater and hence not easy to demo. There were three forum members that I can think of who had one already. But like you say, they weren't anywhere nearby: one in Hawaii, one in the southwest, and one in Lebanon. You think it would have been practical for me to easily get a demo being here in the northeast...?

I don't fault anyone. I think we've all heard the "boy who cried wolf" story one too many times growing up. And single chip DLPs in this price range have not had anything to rave about since the Planar/Runco -LS-5. ...well, all right maybe the UHZ65 if it didn't cause me to see all that RBE.
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post #1366 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
........And neither do just reading the specs.
I dunno. People say this but I don't agree. I think specs do tell the whole story - especially if they're measured by a 3rd party.

For example, people indicated that the RS4500 was far better than its specs. But it turns out that if you properly measure it with settings like I'm using, the native contrast is 40K:1 / 50K:1 before the very active dimming system even kicks in. That explains why I'm happy with the black performance. It's performing to spec not besides specs.

Then there's the contrast charts that start at 0 APL and move to 10% APL gradually. Those show what types of contrast we are use to seeing on say an RS640. The LK970 probably performs really well in most of this chart and I'm sure it can be measured. It's also not performing better than spec, its specs are probably quite good. You know its ANSI contrast is > than LCoS so the question is at what level does this contrast cross with the LCoS low ADL contrast. Again, I think if you measure these things and analyze them you'd see what the spec shows is what you're getting. The lens is super sharp and specs show how good it is. The lumens are well known as is the panel resolution. I think the specs look quite good on this projector except the very bottom ADL.

So my opinion is that this projector is performing right within what the spes show - not some anomaly. We just cant look at only the on/off contrast spec and judge it. That's only part of the picture.
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post #1367 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 10:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
You hit it on the head. The LK970 was not designed for home theater and hence not easy to demo. There were three forum members that I can think of who had one already. But like you say, they weren't anywhere nearby: one in Hawaii, one in the southwest, and one in Lebanon. You think it would have been practical for me to easily get a demo being here in the northeast...?



I don't fault anyone. I think we've all heard the "boy who cried wolf" story one too many times growing up. And single chip DLPs in this price range have not had anything to rave about since the Planar/Runco -LS-5. ...well, all right maybe the UHZ65 if it didn't cause me to see all that RBE.

You did read where I said BenQ allows free demo and return within 30 days, right?


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I dunno. People say this but I don't agree. I think specs do tell the whole story........

This is where you lose me.
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post #1368 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 11:11 PM
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LK790 vs Z1/RS4500 JPEG,s

Been a long day.....
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post #1369 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 11:17 PM
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Continued...
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post #1370 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 11:17 PM
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Thanks Woofer for the photos. Why does it look like there is a Green cast/shift over the LK970 images? The Z1 does look better in the starfield/darker scenes but we knew that anyway. Looking forward to seeing the Lk970 myself.
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post #1371 of 2564 Old 03-21-2019, 11:25 PM
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Lastly......Phew!!!!
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post #1372 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 12:12 AM
 
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BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP

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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
Thanks Woofer for the photos. Why does it look like there is a Green cast/shift over the LK970 images? The Z1 does look better in the starfield/darker scenes but we knew that anyway. Looking forward to seeing the Lk970 myself.

I noticed that too. When I saw that at some point in my tweaking, I adjusted the Flesh Tone setting under the Advanced Settings. One or two clicks left or right usually does the trick.

Thanks for the images woofer. So what can you tell us about your subjective thoughts between them now?

Somebody needs to take the Vaseline off the RS4500/Z1’s lens, haha!
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post #1373 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 12:23 AM
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Somebody needs to take the Vaseline off the RS4500/Z1’s lens, haha!
Yep, i agree....
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post #1374 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 12:34 AM
 
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BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP

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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Yep, i agree....

Wow, I kind of said that in jest. It’s an old saying we used to say when comparing other projectors to our TAW ones with the Rock+ Video Processor at CEDIA/CES and Home demos. Is that really how it was in person?
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post #1375 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Wow, I kind of said that in jest. It’s an old saying we used to say when comparing other projectors to our TAW ones with the Rock+ Video Processor at CEDIA/CES and Home demos. Is that really how it was in person?
Yes. .......for "Me" the biggest "Smile Factor" of the LK970 is its shear image sharpness ...i will say it....its embarrassing for my Z1/RS4500..

We were going to include the X9900 in a few images, but when comparing it to the LK970 - we just laughed and decided we wouldn't bother..
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post #1376 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 12:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Yes. .......for "Me" the biggest "Smile Factor" of the LK970 is its shear image sharpness ...i will say it....its embarrassing for my Z1/RS4500..



We were going to include the X9900 in a few images, but when comparing it to the LK970 - we just laughed and decided we wouldn't bother..

It appears you can really see the big ANSI difference too.
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post #1377 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
It appears you can really see the big ANSI difference too.
I really don't think it's ANSI you're seeing. It's hard to say what it is though. The 970 sure does look sharper. I like that. It might be worth someone calibrating both projectors for a better side by side at this point.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #1378 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 01:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I really don't think it's ANSI you're seeing. It's hard to say what it is though. The 970 sure does look sharper. I like that. It might be worth someone calibrating both projectors for a better side by side at this point.

It’s ANSI. Just as everyone says the JVCs and other LCoS based projectors have much better native, this has much better ANSI. It’s fact and it is what it is.
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post #1379 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
It’s ANSI. Just as everyone says the JVCs and other LCoS based projectors have much better native, this has much better ANSI. It’s fact and it is what it is.
I don't dispute that, but I don't think the ANSI stat is enough larger to make a visible difference like that. I think it's something else. You already brought this up a few days ago and someone else had a better theory than ANSI to explain it.

Edit: here we go. This made more sense to me:

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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post
The differences in blacks and depth in the mid to bright scenes are very unlikely to be caused by the ANSI contrast. That's differences in gamma calibration. It's very obvious that the BenQ is running with a much higher gamma. Calibrate them the same and i'll bet these differences go away. Thats also why you get the black crush in the darkest black panter scene (gamma too high for the BenQ projector contrast to resolve the lower grey steps).

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
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Last edited by markmon1; 03-22-2019 at 01:36 AM.
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post #1380 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
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So what can you tell us about your subjective thoughts between them now?
I'm really eager to hear your overall assessment now Woofer, as I completely agree with you that pictures are only indicative.

I also agree that the 970 pictures appear to have a green hue - they also seem a little less bright in most of the pictures.

In the dark scenes the difference in black level between Z1 & 970 looks clearer.

Edit: thanks for taking all of these
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