BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 47 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1381 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
I'm really eager to hear your overall assessment now Woofer, as I completely agree with you that pictures are only indicative.

I also agree that the 970 pictures appear to have a green hue - they also seem a little less bright in most of the pictures.

In the dark scenes the difference in black level between Z1 & 970 looks clearer in this set of pictures.

Edit: thanks for taking all of these
Yea, all these differences are just calibration. It's hard to take that out of the head when viewing these but you have to try to anyway. The LK970 is sharper no matter how you look at it though. Pretty impressive. At the street price I heard today, I'm tempted to buy one as a backup projector to the RS4500.
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post #1382 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 01:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't dispute that, but I don't think the ANSI stat is enough larger to make a visible difference like that. I think it's something else. You already brought this up a few days ago and someone else had a better theory than ANSI to explain it.



Edit: here we go. This made more sense to me:

That’s easy for him to say without ever seeing or having one, and there may be some truth to it, but on mine I don’t see any black crush whatsoever and my dark grays are very delineated.

I do run it with a higher gamma value selected, 2.8 vs 2.2 or 2.4, but that’s simply due to forcing an HDR signal into an SDR mode and doing what you have to do to bring things back into alignment and look right. I’m not sure that’ll be needed with the LK990 since it has native PQ 2084, but I guess we will see once I finally get mine.
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post #1383 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 01:46 AM
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They do look nice and sharp, but the problem with all these photos if anyone is trying to use them to evaluate black levels / contrast is that they are all correctly exposed for the highlights, which means they will all have some element of black level crush. This gives the impression of better contrast.

A correctly exposed picture of each unit showing a greyscale ramp, and comparing that to the in-person visual experience - noting at which point the blacks disappear into the background in person vs in the picture, would help to understand this phenomenon.

But of course it is just one aspect.
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post #1384 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
They do look nice and sharp, but the problem with all these photos if anyone is trying to use them to evaluate black levels / contrast is that they are all correctly exposed for the highlights, which means they will all have some element of black level crush. This gives the impression of better contrast.

A correctly exposed picture of each unit showing a greyscale ramp, and comparing that to the in-person visual experience - noting at which point the blacks disappear into the background in person vs in the picture, would help to understand this phenomenon.

But of course it is just one aspect.
I have always said the pics are not 100% representative of the actual images BUT!!! they do give a reasonable indication to what is on screen.

I have not and would never put forward that the LOW APL performance of the LK970 can equal the Z1/RS4500 as it most definatley can NOT , BUT "surprisingly" ( personal tolerance i suppose) the LK970 can be quite acceptable in all but the most demanding scenes.

The difference in "Sharpness" is actually MORE prominent in actual viewing than the pics show!! They say ignorance is bliss!...... Now after spending many hours with he LK970 i am dissatisfied with my Z1......until now my Z1 is the "sharpest" PJ i have had or viewed!

Just to put something else in perspective ...... The LK970 on "ECO" mode is similar in brightness to my Z1/RS4500 on HIGH Laser Iris fully open!!!
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post #1385 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 02:22 AM
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I will leave everybody to debate the "Why and Why Not's" ............Me, i am just going to enjoy a film ..
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post #1386 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 02:49 AM
 
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I will leave everybody to debate the "Why and Why Not's" ............Me, i am just going to enjoy a film ..

On which projector?
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post #1387 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
I have always said the pics are not 100% representative of the actual images BUT!!! they do give a reasonable indication to what is on screen.

I have not and would never put forward that the LOW APL performance of the LK970 can equal the Z1/RS4500 as it most definatley can NOT , BUT "surprisingly" ( personal tolerance i suppose) the LK970 can be quite acceptable in all but the most demanding scenes.

The difference in "Sharpness" is actually MORE prominent in actual viewing than the pics show!! They say ignorance is bliss!...... Now after spending many hours with he LK970 i am dissatisfied with my Z1......until now my Z1 is the "sharpest" PJ i have had or viewed!

Just to put something else in perspective ...... The LK970 on "ECO" mode is similar in brightness to my Z1/RS4500 on HIGH Laser Iris fully open!!!
I'm not saying you are putting that forward, just without qualification some might say from these photos it doesn't look that different.

I'm not surprised it can be quite acceptable. In fact I've raised questions in several threads in the past about how black do you really need given folk making movies know how black (not) a cinema is. When I go to my local art cinema that use a well configured DLP unit the image is very likeable in spite of low contrast. They mask correctly and I've enjoyed the presentation of every movie I've seen there (good beer helps too...!)

To give the context of what I'm saying; in terms of my own X7900 setup if I look at a 16-235 grey chart from my Lumagen (25 vertical bars on black) and correctly expose white, the bottom 5(!) bars will disappear from view as being basically black in the photos. These are all very distinguishable in person in room from seating.

I just fired up the old girl and took this quickly to make the point. In fact, you could argue the below is slightly over exposed still, as the difference between the top two white bars is greater in person. For folk presenting comparison photos like yours it would be useful to also present such a ramp chart so it is very clear what the limitations of the photography are, they're completely unambiguous then as you can frame the image in the context of what the photos could ever allow you to see.
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post #1388 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 03:17 AM
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It's one impressive projector with one near flawless lens.

Note the CA and perhaps even convergence in red and blue around the window on the Z1.

The BenQ looks clearer, the bricks appear sharper etc. That's far RHS though, less difference in the centre but it's still there.
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post #1389 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
Thanks Woofer for the photos. Why does it look like there is a Green cast/shift over the LK970 images? The Z1 does look better in the starfield/darker scenes but we knew that anyway. Looking forward to seeing the Lk970 myself.
I think Woofer is using Dave's harpervision settings, when i used them on mine i had some green and some yellow shift because its calibrated on Dave's screen, what i did was doing a full CMS bt2020 50/50 calibration and that completely fixed it.
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post #1390 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
I'm really eager to hear your overall assessment now Woofer, as I completely agree with you that pictures are only indicative.

I also agree that the 970 pictures appear to have a green hue - they also seem a little less bright in most of the pictures.

In the dark scenes the difference in black level between Z1 & 970 looks clearer in this set of pictures.

Edit: thanks for taking all of these [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif[/IMG]
Yea, all these differences are just calibration. It's hard to take that out of the head when viewing these but you have to try to anyway. The LK970 is sharper no matter how you look at it though. Pretty impressive. At the street price I heard today, I'm tempted to buy one as a backup projector to the RS4500.
That is what i did Mark because the street price is very impressive indeed, the difference in my situation is i have an rs440 not a Z1 and the difference in sharpness/clarity/ brightness slaped me in the face lol

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post #1391 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
That’s easy for him to say without ever seeing or having one, and there may be some truth to it, but on mine I don’t see any black crush whatsoever and my dark grays are very delineated.

I do run it with a higher gamma value selected, 2.8 vs 2.2 or 2.4, but that’s simply due to forcing an HDR signal into an SDR mode and doing what you have to do to bring things back into alignment and look right. I’m not sure that’ll be needed with the LK990 since it has native PQ 2084, but I guess we will see once I finally get mine.
I'm not disputing this either nor am I disputing that the LK970 has an ANSI contrast advantage. I'm just disputing that what we are seeing in those photo comparisons is attributed to ANSI contrast. The blacks on the LK970 are a little crushed. And I'm sure it's not due to that being just how the 970 is. The black advantages we are seeing is exactly what you get if you take your gamma and make it a little too dark without proper calibration. It's fine for the situation but it doesn't draw any conclusions in those photos.

My friend has a 185" screen I'm trying hard to get him to buy an LK970 lol.
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post #1392 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
It’s ANSI. Just as everyone says the JVCs and other LCoS based projectors have much better native, this has much better ANSI. It’s fact and it is what it is.
I don't think it's only ANSI but also ability of a DLP to resolve edges better compared to an LCOS.

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post #1393 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
It's one impressive projector with one near flawless lens.

Note the CA and perhaps even convergence in red and blue around the window on the Z1.

The BenQ looks clearer, the bricks appear sharper etc. That's far RHS though, less difference in the centre but it's still there.
FYI BenQ's cheaper HT9060/X12000H HLD LED lens is similarly impressively free of CA/color fringing artifacts; though while still razor sharp it's not quite as sharp on the pixel level as this LK shot indicates.
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You did read where I said BenQ allows free demo and return within 30 days, right?
Yes. What about it? The fact is I recently called BenQ direct and asked for a demo and the rep there said no that I had to purchase it first. I would have paid for shipping both ways to demo. So I have no idea how the fellow you were speaking with accomplished that.

If you have some specifics on how I can do it or whom to contact, I think that would be more helpful.
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post #1395 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 05:38 AM
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They do look nice and sharp, but the problem with all these photos if anyone is trying to use them to evaluate black levels / contrast is that they are all correctly exposed for the highlights, which means they will all have some element of black level crush. This gives the impression of better contrast.
"Better contrast"? Those star field photos projected by the LK970 looked horrible to me, in terms of contrast/black levels I'm used to.

Also, the LK's processor-laser transitioning seems very color-sensitive to the source data. While I noticed the 970 wasn't showing any hint of clipping as did the Z1's images at times, it went from having a slightly green cast (e.g. first pic set) to showing sunburned red (Jumanji pics).

The LK 970's sharpness, however, looks amazing. The Z1's photos consistently looked de-focused in comparison.

Now I really don't know what to make of it until I see it in person I guess.
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post #1396 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 05:44 AM
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I'm not disputing this either nor am I disputing that the LK970 has an ANSI contrast advantage. I'm just disputing that what we are seeing in those photo comparisons is attributed to ANSI contrast. The blacks on the LK970 are a little crushed. And I'm sure it's not due to that being just how the 970 is. The black advantages we are seeing is exactly what you get if you take your gamma and make it a little too dark without proper calibration. It's fine for the situation but it doesn't draw any conclusions in those photos.

My friend has a 185" screen I'm trying hard to get him to buy an LK970 lol.
But the ansi contrast of the 970 is over 1000 and the Z1 only manages 150 from memory? So it can't be none of one thing and all of another, it has to, by nature, be many things. Ansi, lens, lumens, gamma, the dlp tech itself etc etc, all play a part right? Because all of those things make up the image.
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post #1397 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 05:49 AM
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That is what i did Mark because the street price is very impressive indeed, the difference in my situation is i have an rs440 not a Z1 and the difference in sharpness/clarity/ brightness slaped me in the face lol
That may be one answer for some people, tnaik....a two-projector set up like what you have.

Well done!
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post #1398 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 05:50 AM
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FYI BenQ's cheaper HT9060/X12000H HLD LED lens is similarly impressively free of CA/color fringing artifacts; though while still razor sharp it's not quite as sharp on the pixel level as this LK shot indicates.
That is good to know. They really seem to have good optics. No motorization of focus zoom or shift I suppose allows for more funds to go to better optics too. I remember well my W5000 from 10 years ago, that was nice and sharp too back then.
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But the ansi contrast of the 970 is over 1000 and the Z1 only manages 150 from memory? So it can't be none of one thing and all of another, it has to, by nature, be many things. Ansi, lens, lumens, gamma, the dlp tech itself etc etc, all play a part right? Because all of those things make up the image.
That's true. But I think the point they're making is that just because the high ANSI number is there doesn't mean you always see it on screen.
I, personally, think I see the difference when there's a dark object against a very bright background.
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"Better contrast"? Those star field photos projected by the LK970 looked horrible to me, in terms of contrast/black levels I'm used to.

Also, the LK's processor-laser transitioning seems very color-sensitive to the source data. While I noticed the 970 wasn't showing any hint of clipping as did the Z1's images at times, it went from having a slightly green cast (e.g. first pic set) to showing sunburned red (Jumanji pics).

The LK 970's sharpness, however, looks amazing. The Z1's photos consistently looked de-focused in comparison.

Now I really don't know what to make of it until I see it in person I guess.
Precisely, the point there is that for the poor grey floor to show in the photos it must be really pretty poor, as the photo will be making it look better than it really is.
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post #1401 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:03 AM
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"Better contrast"? Those star field photos projected by the LK970 looked horrible to me, in terms of contrast/black levels I'm used to.

Also, the LK's processor-laser transitioning seems very color-sensitive to the source data. While I noticed the 970 wasn't showing any hint of clipping as did the Z1's images at times, it went from having a slightly green cast (e.g. first pic set) to showing sunburned red (Jumanji pics).

The LK 970's sharpness, however, looks amazing. The Z1's photos consistently looked de-focused in comparison.

Now I really don't know what to make of it until I see it in person I guess.
In many of the brighter images, it did seem like the LK970 had better contrast, but at the same time many of the black parts were still darker on the Z1 and the white parts brighter in the same image, but it felt sort of blown out where the LK970 looked more in focus. I think some of those aspects you need to just ignore as camera artifacts.

To be honest, I am afraid to bring an LK970 in my house. Right now the RS4500 is crystal clear and as sharp as I can imagine. If something else comes in here that's sharper but has poor black performance I'll be unhappy and won't want either the RS4500 or the LK970. This is basically where I was last year with the RS640 and 675ES. I'm probably better off not seeing one.

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They do look nice and sharp, but the problem with all these photos if anyone is trying to use them to evaluate black levels / contrast is that they are all correctly exposed for the highlights, which means they will all have some element of black level crush. This gives the impression of better contrast.
"Better contrast"? Those star field photos projected by the LK970 looked horrible to me, in terms of contrast/black levels I'm used to.

Also, the LK's processor-laser transitioning seems very color-sensitive to the source data. While I noticed the 970 wasn't showing any hint of clipping as did the Z1's images at times, it went from having a slightly green cast (e.g. first pic set) to showing sunburned red (Jumanji pics).

The LK 970's sharpness, however, looks amazing. The Z1's photos consistently looked de-focused in comparison.

Now I really don't know what to make of it until I see it in person I guess.
Aztar i noticed Dave settings are dependant sometimes on the movie and how is it mastered, some movies i can go to 45 brightness and others i have to go to 49-50 or ill be crushing alot. Also Deadpool 2 didnt look good at all no matter what i tweaked unless i switch to Madvr tone mapping to rec709 or dci-p3 thats where it looks excellent.
So what ur seeinf depends really which tone mapping method u use, in madvr its the same in all content, with harpervision u have sometimes to tweak for different movies.
This is some pics of Aquaman i took while watching the movie so it was in motion not still pictures, u can see how when properly calibrated its very natural.
Dont mind the clipping due to the camera.
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post #1403 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Aztar i noticed Dave settings are dependant sometimes on the movie and how is it mastered, some movies i can go to 45 brightness and others i have to go to 49-50 or ill be crushing alot. Also Deadpool 2 didnt look good at all no matter what i tweaked unless i switch to Madvr tone mapping to rec709 or dci-p3 thats where it looks excellent.
So what ur seeinf depends really which tone mapping method u use, in madvr its the same in all content, with harpervision u have sometimes to tweak for different movies.
Not interested in tweaking per movie. That is not how I use my projector. With my current projector, I could probably improve things, tweaking per movie, but not willing to do that.

Added
Also is this something where you are watching the movie, get part way through it, see a problem and then stop movie to adjust?
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post #1404 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Not interested in tweaking per movie. That is not how I use my projector. With my current projector, I could probably improve things, tweaking per movie, but not willing to do that.
My system automation allows for automatic tweaking per movie But if I had to pull the remote out to make manual changes to watch something I'd be super out as well.

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post #1405 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:46 AM
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The RS4500 is well balanced and performs pretty well in all aspects. No need to taint your perception on things.



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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
In many of the brighter images, it did seem like the LK970 had better contrast, but at the same time many of the black parts were still darker on the Z1 and the white parts brighter in the same image, but it felt sort of blown out where the LK970 looked more in focus. I think some of those aspects you need to just ignore as camera artifacts.

To be honest, I am afraid to bring an LK970 in my house. Right now the RS4500 is crystal clear and as sharp as I can imagine. If something else comes in here that's sharper but has poor black performance I'll be unhappy and won't want either the RS4500 or the LK970. This is basically where I was last year with the RS640 and 675ES. I'm probably better off not seeing one.
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post #1406 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
My system automation allows for automatic tweaking per movie But if I had to pull the remote out to make manual changes to watch something I'd be super out as well.
But to set it up, you would have had to view the movie already, because it looks like it is an adjustment based on visual inspection of the movie. So how is automation going to help you, when you get a new movie and are ready to view it the first time?
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post #1407 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:48 AM
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Glad I could tell the green cast in some of the early images....sometimes I wonder about my eyes compared to you guys.

What is the purple cast on the space cruiser in image 5 on the z1 th as that is not present on the 970?

Impressive showing for the 970 relative to the cost difference.



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post #1408 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeffg8 View Post
Glad I could tell the green cast in some of the early images....sometimes I wonder about my eyes compared to you guys.

What is the purple cast on the space cruiser in image 5 on the z1 th as that is not present on the 970?

Impressive showing for the 970 relative to the cost difference.



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Will be interesting when we get to see them compared, after calibration.
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post #1409 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Aztar i noticed Dave settings are dependant sometimes on the movie and how is it mastered, some movies i can go to 45 brightness and others i have to go to 49-50 or ill be crushing alot. Also Deadpool 2 didnt look good at all no matter what i tweaked unless i switch to Madvr tone mapping to rec709 or dci-p3 thats where it looks excellent.
So what ur seeinf depends really which tone mapping method u use, in madvr its the same in all content, with harpervision u have sometimes to tweak for different movies.
Not interested in tweaking per movie. That is not how I use my projector. With my current projector, I could probably improve things, tweaking per movie, but not willing to do that.
U dont have to, with Madvr tonemapping its same in every movie, u just use that or panasonic tone mapping, i was saying with Dave's settings it needs some tinkering sometimes for different movies, not every other movie, i linked some pics with madvr tonemapping in my last post and that is how it looks for all content.
Also its just a matter of changing brightness if u see the movie is crushing details, i have 2 presets with dave settings which worked for 50+ movies so far except deadpool 2.
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post #1410 of 2519 Old 03-22-2019, 06:56 AM
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I think this hits on a good point. It is a number of factors that give the 970 the look it has. The ANSI is really high but I think we will see the mid APL performace is pretty good as well. I would venture to say from 2-3% APL on up to 50 % APL the decline in contrast is very shallow. On mixed brightness scenes even ones that measure as lower on the APL spectrum intrascene contrast is very important. If that is high the image will look great. High native contrast will look great too in those scenes but in my opinion will only give that same sense of depth if the scene has a larger luminance range. (More dark elements) In a true mixed scene the range is just not there sometimes.



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I don't think it's only ANSI but also ability of a DLP to resolve edges better compared to an LCOS.

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