BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 50 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 09:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I have a mental issue on this. I want true fade to black loading screens. And more importantly, I feel like for what I paid for the RS4500 that if it can't handle all my needs I should probably get rid of it and get something else. Last year, I'd have considered the BenQ LK970 + RS640 as a viable combo. Honestly, the RS4500 looks incredible for 4K games. I don't think I need the lumens that the Lk970 powers out in my room. My new RS4500 is so bright feeling on low laser. On mid, it's super bright for HDR and games. Tested my game a little with the RS4500 on high and it does get brighter, but it doesn't feel the dramatic difference in pop that you get going from low to mid. I feel like your eyes sort of adjust to whatever light output you're looking at once it hits a certain range anyway.

I don’t think I’d expect anyone to replace their RS4500/Z1, VW995ES or VW5000ES with an LK970 or 990. That’s not the point of what makes the LK970 so great. What puts it over the top is the overall image you get for the money compared to those flagship projectors with very high prices.

If I had the budget I am sure I’d have an RS4500 or maybe a VW995ES. But for this to even be discussed says a LOT about the LKs!
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post #1472 of 2564 Old 03-22-2019, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Lastly......Phew!!!!
Hmm...

Paul, are you using edge enhancements / sharpening on the BenQ?

I know I need to see it for myself, but I am seeing drastic edge sharpening on every single BenQ image, at least as far as what you have photographed, I prefer your Z1 shots overall, they are all much calmer and relaxed in presentation, they are still sharp, but the BenQ images all look over-processed, overcooked.

I know BenQ does have some image sharpening tools, because they boast about it on the product pages, they may be on by default, I dont know, but its interesting, I am not seeing 'true' sharpness advantage here, I am seeing 'more cooked'. Its also quite reminiscent of 'Eshift' vs native to me anyway.

Keen to explore this a bit more in person with a unit in my room though. But initially, I am seeing over-sharpened images and to me, this makes them appear more 'flat' and harsh.. Perhaps look at the settings? It could ultimately be an artefact of eshift.

Also everyone keeps mentioning the green cast,

WOOFER IS NOT A CALIBRATOR.

Paul, go into your white balance, and try pull the green gain down about 4-5 clicks. Should help

Also, consider using 2.4 gamma, not 2.6. There is a huge gamma disparity in the images too.
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post #1473 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 12:12 AM
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Hmm...

Paul, are you using edge enhancements / sharpening on the BenQ?



I know BenQ does have some image sharpening tools, because they boast about it on the product pages, they may be on by default, I dont know, but its interesting, I am not seeing 'true' sharpness advantage here, I am seeing 'more cooked'. Its also quite reminiscent of 'Eshift' vs native to me anyway.
There is an option for "Sharpening" in the first menu page..... i just left it at its default setting..

Z1 , i always have MPC set at 0-0-0 ....unlike the E-Shift units the "Enhance" on the Z1 doesn't really do much even if you do crank it up ??
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post #1474 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
There is an option for "Sharpening" in the first menu page..... i just left it at its default setting..

Z1 , i always have MPC set at 0-0-0 ....unlike the E-Shift units the "Enhance" on the Z1 doesn't really do much even if you do crank it up ??
I also have my MPC set to 4K 0-0-0 and agree that enhance does almost nothing. I tried toggling between 0 and 10 in a game and I could tell maybe the slightest difference.

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post #1475 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Yes Craig, thats the point..

Something else to consider also is screen size ... my screen is a 143" scope( 150" 16:9) ..that is the maximum size i would be comfortable using with the Z1.

Eventually in the not to distant future i want to run a 170" 16:9..... My Z1 has got "Buckley's" of effectively lighting this up.

When i auditioned the Sony 5000ES on 180" screen, i came home and my screen looked positively "Tiny"!!

At this moment there are very few options IF you want to run a larger sized screen.

The other thing with larger screens is "Sharpness" becomes even more obvious and important .
On small screens ..110-120" ALL projectors tend to look more or less equally "Sharp" ...as the screen size increases you really DO notice some rather prominent differences sharpness wise in the different projectors.

Take my X9900 for example.....project a small 110-120" screen...it looks quite sharp and respectable .... even in relation to my Z1.
Project onto my 143" Scope ( 150" 16:9 ) and the difference is huge! .

Take the LK970 , using it on a small 110-120" screen would be an utter waste....too bright, and it cant stretch its legs with is brilliant sharpness. On my screen size it pulls ahead of my Z1 substantially ( sharpness wise) .

I imagine on a 170"+ screen the difference between my Z1 and the LK970 would be even more apparent.

The Sony 5000ES is another projector that i respect....on a small screen below 140" i prefer my Z1, BUT any larger i would take the the 5000ES ( even with its noticeable contrast loss) over my Z1.

The LK970 while NOT having anywhere near the contrast of the 5000ES , does provide a similar light output at a fraction of the price of the 5000ES, so it makes lighting up a Large screen a 'Reality" instead of a "Fantasy" for a lot of people.

From what i have seen of the 5000ES , the LK970 is Noticeably sharper ( just like in the case of the LK970 vs my Z1 ) .

So yes, "horses for courses" !
Thanks for this Woofer, really helps.

I personally plan on using either a 162.5" or 170" scope (2.4:1) screen, in a CIH setup, in an environment which it'll be possible to black out completely, but I wont do that unless I'm having a serious 'film night'. My usage will be 90% watching football, F1, boxing, Netflix and childrens programs & gaming - for most of which the lights will be low, but not off. I do love watching films but it's occasional.

As far as budget goes, I'm OK with stretching to any projector - but value is a big consideration. I'm going highest possible end with the speakers.

Given all of the above, hopefully you can see why I'm interested in this projector. It's so bright that it'll happily illuminate this size screen, probably even with a low gain grey screen (0.8 or so) to help the black levels given moderate ambient light. It also seems like the perfect projector for sports given its sharpness and brightness. The value proposition is off the charts, and I love the 'instant on' (waiting 1 minute for a projector which I'm effectively using as a TV will really annoy me) and the fact that it's laser (so will last a long time). As a tech guy (data science developer) I'll definitely be incorporating MadVR in the loop some how.

The only hesitation I have is the black levels. With TV's and from what I've seen of projectors, black levels make such a massive perceived difference to me, and when I do watch films with friends & family, I want the best possible film picture I can have.

From your own perspective, would you recommend this projector for my setup given the above? Having two projectors is an option, but starts to cross the threshold of excessive, especially when explaining to the family :-)

Cheers
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post #1476 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Thanks for this Woofer, really helps.

I personally plan on using either a 162.5" or 170" scope (2.4:1) screen, in a CIH setup, in an environment which it'll be possible to black out completely, but I wont do that unless I'm having a serious 'film night'. My usage will be 90% watching football, F1, boxing, Netflix and childrens programs & gaming - for most of which the lights will be low, but not off. I do love watching films but it's occasional.

As far as budget goes, I'm OK with stretching to any projector - but value is a big consideration. I'm going highest possible end with the speakers.

Given all of the above, hopefully you can see why I'm interested in this projector. It's so bright that it'll happily illuminate this size screen, probably even with a low gain grey screen (0.8 or so) to help the black levels given moderate ambient light. It also seems like the perfect projector for sports given its sharpness and brightness. The value proposition is off the charts, and I love the 'instant on' (waiting 1 minute for a projector which I'm effectively using as a TV will really annoy me) and the fact that it's laser (so will last a long time). As a tech guy (data science developer) I'll definitely be incorporating MadVR in the loop some how.

The only hesitation I have is the black levels. With TV's and from what I've seen of projectors, black levels make such a massive perceived difference to me, and when I do watch films with friends & family, I want the best possible film picture I can have.

From your own perspective, would you recommend this projector for my setup given the above? Having two projectors is an option, but starts to cross the threshold of excessive, especially when explaining to the family :-)

Cheers
It sounds like your room is somewhat multipurpose, I hadn't twigged that from previous back and forth on the matter. In that case would it be safe to assume you're not going to be having black fabric on the walls or similar?

If not, I'd probably recommend going for an angular ALR screen and not just a flat 0.8 gain screen, subject to satisfying the manufacturer's minimum throw specs for avoiding hotspots, and subject to thinking about the seating arrangements and how they interact with the viewing cone.

ALR screens with a falloff in gain over their viewing curve can make a very large difference in a room where the walls are still somewhat reflective.
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post #1477 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I also have my MPC set to 4K 0-0-0 and agree that enhance does almost nothing. I tried toggling between 0 and 10 in a game and I could tell maybe the slightest difference.

On my rs 520, enhance only works with 4k24 and below.
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post #1478 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 03:08 AM
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It sounds like your room is somewhat multipurpose, I hadn't twigged that from previous back and forth on the matter. In that case would it be safe to assume you're not going to be having black fabric on the walls or similar?

If not, I'd probably recommend going for an angular ALR screen and not just a flat 0.8 gain screen, subject to satisfying the manufacturer's minimum throw specs for avoiding hotspots, and subject to thinking about the seating arrangements and how they interact with the viewing cone.

ALR screens with a falloff in gain over their viewing curve can make a very large difference in a room where the walls are still somewhat reflective.
Thanks for the response. I go back and forth between dark screens / white screens.

There are 3 issues for me with the ALR screens:

1 - Most of the light will come from the same direction as the projector
2 - I need an AT screen
3 - My throw ratio is around 1.4

The latest design of the room does have black fabric covering the entire 'screen wall' (with automatic masking), as well as a fully black star ceiling and dark beige side panels. I think I'll start sharing pictures of this in my dedicated thread in the next week or so. It does have white soffits, however (subject to change).

The issue I run into is that it's open at the back to an area which is designed to be more bright, with light coming from windows 20m back (in the direction of the projector). It's a basement room and I can automatically black out the light coming from the windows - I just think that I wont for 75%+ of my viewing.

Should probably move this conversation to my dedicated thread as I don't want to derail this thread - but I do feel like this projector is a decent possibility for my use case.
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post #1479 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@Aztar35

I Would/Will " Gladly" run an LK970/990 in conjunction with with my Z1..... because YES i really do like the LK970.
In comparing the two did you use the blanking feature on each projector when switching back an forth?

When Dylan and I first did that with the LK990 and RS2000 he noticed the blacks should be blacker on the JVC, and sure enough when we physically blocked the lens of the BenQ the blacks improved quite a bit for the JVC.

With so much brightness, even in blanking mode the BenQ is throwing substantial light. This would skew the comparison in favor of the BenQ, by crippling one of the JVC’s strengths.

I’m returning my LK990 and will go with a RS2000. The low contrast of the BenQ is a dealbreaker for me. It is distracting and pulls me out of the experience. The RS2000 has so much more dimension and depth on darker scenes, it’s not even close really. I have a dedicated theater with full light control, and black velvet on the walls. I watch movies almost 100% of the time. With proper tone mapping it is plenty bright. We tested the new Panasonic profiles in the JVC with my UB820 and they have a real winner with this combo. We both liked the basic luminance profile better.
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post #1480 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 03:52 AM
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I'm just disputing that what we are seeing in those photo comparisons
It is funny that you, of all people, are questioning the veracity of photos posted by a member, and yet, when challenged on your own photo(s) you strongly claim they are truly representative.

I can't be the only one to have noticed the irony here surely?

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post #1481 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 03:57 AM
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In comparing the two did you use the blanking feature on each projector when switching back an forth?
I always use "manual / physical blocking of the lens" of each PJ ......that is why it takes 2 persons.....one doing the physical blanking and one with the remote shutter release for the camera.
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post #1482 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
You know, I've decided that if this projector meets other peoples needs, even though it doesn't meet my needs, that's totally cool. Different strokes for different folks.
..............You do know how that sounds when read aloud don't you?

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post #1483 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 04:03 AM
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I have a dedicated theater with full light control, and black velvet on the walls.
Same here... Black Velvet on walls , and black panels on the roof..
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post #1484 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 04:31 AM
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In comparing the two did you use the blanking feature on each projector when switching back an forth?

When Dylan and I first did that with the LK990 and RS2000 he noticed the blacks should be blacker on the JVC, and sure enough when we physically blocked the lens of the BenQ the blacks improved quite a bit for the JVC.

With so much brightness, even in blanking mode the BenQ is throwing substantial light. This would skew the comparison in favor of the BenQ, by crippling one of the JVC’s strengths.

I’m returning my LK990 and will go with a RS2000. The low contrast of the BenQ is a dealbreaker for me. It is distracting and pulls me out of the experience. The RS2000 has so much more dimension and depth on darker scenes, it’s not even close really. I have a dedicated theater with full light control, and black velvet on the walls. I watch movies almost 100% of the time. With proper tone mapping it is plenty bright. We tested the new Panasonic profiles in the JVC with my UB820 and they have a real winner with this combo. We both liked the basic luminance profile better.
Is it possible that the LK990 is somehow a worse performer, relative to the LK970?
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Is it possible that the LK990 is somehow a worse performer, relative to the LK970?
Could be. I guess we won’t know for sure until Dave gets his 990. With Smarteco the 990 should be the better performer with regards to contrast. Dylan measured 4000:1 dynamically.
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post #1486 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 04:41 AM
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The other thing with larger screens is "Sharpness" becomes even more obvious and important .
On small screens ..110-120" ALL projectors tend to look more or less equally "Sharp" ...as the screen size increases you really DO notice some rather prominent differences sharpness wise in the different projectors.
I think this is more dependent on how close you sit to whatever screen size you have. At 7 feet from my 135", I'm seeing more detail than my friend's 13 feet from his 185" for example.

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post #1487 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 04:43 AM
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...not only that, Silver, but there was some word in passing that he may even replace his Z1 with it. I'm trying to get a grasp of all this. So, if Woofer is considering the LK970 after owning the RS4500 that speaks loud and clear to how good he sees it.

When Woofer talks, I listen. I said this before... If Woofer said the projector was a ham sandwich, I'd say pass the mustard. Or, if Woofer said the RS4500 was king, I would get one.
If Woofer said buy only JVCs, I would do that. ..you get the idea.
Agreed. @woofer is why I bought an RS4500.

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
It is funny that you, of all people, are questioning the veracity of photos posted by a member, and yet, when challenged on your own photo(s) you strongly claim they are truly representative.

I can't be the only one to have noticed the irony here surely?
So because I posted a photo of a star field that looked just like it did in real life (as confirmed by other witnesses), and everyone with sony projectors that have pretty poor black floors are in super disbelief over it, I have no right to question any photos ever? Is that the message here? And I'm not questioning the photos themselves, only whether or not the cause of the difference has anything to do with ANSI contrast.

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So because I posted a photo of a star field that looked just like it did in real life (as confirmed by other witnesses), and everyone with sony projectors that have pretty poor black floors are in super disbelief over it, I have no right to question any photos ever? Is that the message here? And I'm not questioning the photos themselves, only whether or not the cause of the difference has anything to do with ANSI contrast.
Wow! There you are again, taking something and running away with it over to personally aggrieved corner.....

It isn't personal, I just found it amusing enough to make a comment. Apologies if any offence caused sir.

For the record though, I did, and *do*, think your picture was 'representative' of what you say you were seeing.

However, all I ever said myself, was that the difference to the eye and brain wouldn't be so obvious if viewed separately in the same room, as the brain is AMAZING at equalising what we are looking at to make it fit in with our own personal perception of reality.
The brain would have no option but to make the greyer side of the image seem even greyer when the other half of the image is clearly darker, as yours is a single picture with only one overall dynamic range being shown, so the brain alters its perception to normalise the overall image according to the brightest and darkest parts of the one image shown.

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post #1490 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 05:39 AM
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Wow! There you are again, taking something and running away with it over to personally aggrieved corner.....

It isn't personal, I just found it amusing enough to make a comment. Apologies if any offence caused sir.

For the record though, I did, and *do*, think your picture was 'representative' of what you say you were seeing.

However, all I ever said myself, was that the difference to the eye and brain wouldn't be so obvious if viewed separately in the same room, as the brain is AMAZING at equalising what we are looking at to make it fit in with our own personal perception of reality.
The brain would have no option but to make the greyer side of the image seem even greyer when the other half of the image is clearly darker, as yours is a single picture with only one overall dynamic range being shown, so the brain alters its perception to normalise the overall image according to the brightest and darkest parts of the one image shown.
Yes Yes I remember the discussion vividly as it went on and on and on . I don't think there's any need to re-summarize it here, in a totally different thread, do you?

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In my opinion, the RS 4500/Z1 will provide a bit calmer image. In true sharpness, they are probably a little closer than the images would seem. Most DLP's have a trademark image look and the defined sharp edges is part of it. To be honest, the processing unit on the Ben Q is a good value but I would process images through a lumagen or htpc if given the option. As with most units the built-in aids have the capacity to add noise and overcook the image if overdone. This unit is naturally very sharp but not the sharpest DLP I have owned so as a basis I don't really find it harsh at all. It is naturally sharp, but all pixels are well delineated with sharp edges. Even with some softening of the wobulation it is still quite sharp.





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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hmm...

Paul, are you using edge enhancements / sharpening on the BenQ?

I know I need to see it for myself, but I am seeing drastic edge sharpening on every single BenQ image, at least as far as what you have photographed, I prefer your Z1 shots overall, they are all much calmer and relaxed in presentation, they are still sharp, but the BenQ images all look over-processed, overcooked.

I know BenQ does have some image sharpening tools, because they boast about it on the product pages, they may be on by default, I dont know, but its interesting, I am not seeing 'true' sharpness advantage here, I am seeing 'more cooked'. Its also quite reminiscent of 'Eshift' vs native to me anyway.

Keen to explore this a bit more in person with a unit in my room though. But initially, I am seeing over-sharpened images and to me, this makes them appear more 'flat' and harsh.. Perhaps look at the settings? It could ultimately be an artefact of eshift.

Also everyone keeps mentioning the green cast,

WOOFER IS NOT A CALIBRATOR.

Paul, go into your white balance, and try pull the green gain down about 4-5 clicks. Should help

Also, consider using 2.4 gamma, not 2.6. There is a huge gamma disparity in the images too.
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post #1492 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 07:01 AM
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I convinced my friend to buy one of these so we just bought Dave Harper's I'm probably more excited to get it than he is. I guess if he hates it I'll be keeping it as a spare / maybe a games only machine. I can't imagine him hating it unless he complains about something like "its too noisy" who knows.

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post #1493 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
..............You do know how that sounds when read aloud don't you?
It wasn't meant to sound that way. Until I see one of these in person, I have no further opinion on any BenQ products. Positive or negative. Carry on.
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post #1494 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 08:45 AM
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I don't think there's any need to re-summarize it here, in a totally different thread, do you?
Unless you want to do that, then no.

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post #1495 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 08:49 AM
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It wasn't meant to sound that way. Until I see one of these in person, I have no further opinion on any BenQ products. Positive or negative. Carry on.
I think they quite patently seem to be exceptional value for money.

I hopefully will be seeing one sometime soon and then can judge for myself.

There is one thing I think people have missed out in their assessments of this unit, and that is, how it looks.

It is not the ugliest projector I have ever seen by a long way, but it's design doesn't float my boat. I think it is something to do with the twisty knobs on the top. Looks a bit Heath Robinson to me.
I can't stop looking at them without thinking how much nicer it would look without them there.

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post #1496 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I think they quite patently seem to be exceptional value for money.

I hopefully will be seeing one sometime soon and then can judge for myself.

There is one thing I think people have missed out in their assessments of this unit, and that is, how it looks.

It is not the ugliest projector I have ever seen by a long way, but it's design doesn't float my boat. I think it is something to do with the twisty knobs on the top. Looks a bit Heath Robinson to me.
I can't stop looking at them without thinking how much nicer it would look without them there.


I am unable to use any projector with " twisty knobs " in my theater. It has to have powered lens features. So there is that issue. But if someone only uses a 16:9 screen, no problem there.
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post #1497 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I am unable to use any projector with " twisty knobs " in my theater. It has to have powered lens features. So there is that issue. But if someone only uses a 16:9 screen, no problem there.
Agreed. No powered lens/lens memory is a deal killer in itself. I would last maybe a couple weeks if I had to go back to manually changing between aspect ratios on my scope screen, and especially focus. SO much easier being able to put your nose right up to the screen to get perfect focus with a powered lens vs doing it all the way across the room at the projector. A manual lens would drive me insane with my scope screen!
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post #1498 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by silver700 View Post
Craig, you own a RS4500. You drink wine that easily cost over $200 a bottle. What are you doing post in this forum?? Shouldn't a rich man like you be posting in the Forbes Magazine forum?? Just kidding!!! Enjoy your movies...you lousy rich bas#&^%. Can we cuss on this forum?
Ha - on my birthday maybe. The other 364 days - take a zero off that price. I have thirsty movie watching friends - they'd break me at those prices in short order. By the way - " Green Book " was excellent. Everybody loved it !

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post #1499 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 09:34 AM
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Agreed. No powered lens/lens memory is a deal killer in itself. I would last maybe a couple weeks if I had to go back to manually changing between aspect ratios on my scope screen, and especially focus. SO much easier being able to put your nose right up to the screen to get perfect focus with a powered lens vs doing it all the way across the room at the projector. A manual lens would drive me insane with my scope screen!
It's worse for me - my projector is in a closet. Just like a hush box, it can only be remotely controlled via IR etc.

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post #1500 of 2564 Old 03-23-2019, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
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It's worse for me - my projector is in a closet. Just like a hush box, it can only be remotely controlled via IR etc.
Isn't this solved by using a Lumagen, anamorphic lens and motorized masking?

I'm also isolating my projector (for noise floor reasons) so that would have to work.
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