BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 66 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1951 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 01:10 PM
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Is it just me or do all the images look too green?

Could be the camera white balance though.

Should show them next to source images extracted from the video.
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post #1952 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Those look good. Isn't the Radiance Pro dynamic tone mapping amazing ? It's improved HDR in my theater for sure.
I agree on the Radiance Pro. I've got a 4446 that I bought at its inception and have enjoyed it ever since. It's my source switcher, calibration patch generator, 1D and 3DLUT holder, dynamic tone mapper, etc. Yes, it is expensive, but IMO worth every penny.
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post #1953 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Is it just me or do all the images look too green?

Could be the camera white balance though.

Should show them next to source images extracted from the video.
They certainly aren't too green on the screen nor on my calibrated monitor. That's the problem with these pictures: they'll look different for every viewer. Just judge them for image clarity as colorimetry cannot be consistent for everybody.
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post #1954 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 01:40 PM
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Interesting thing about seeing rainbows. When I first got my LK970 I saw rainbows when I glanced down and back from subscripts that we old people use. However, they have now virtually gone away, even with the subscripts. Or, I've conditioned myself so that I don't notice them any more. I initially thought I was going to have to send the projector back, but have now changed my mind. Has this happened to other people? My wife, by the way, never sees them.
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post #1955 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
Some random shots from Lucy on my LK970. Projector in economic laser mode zoomed to fill 126" wide scope screen. Pictures taken with iPhone with cropping only. Projector calibrated using LightSpace 3DLUT uploaded to Radiance Pro. Radiance Pro dynamic tone mapping being used. No point to make other than this projector produces some nice sharp images.
how far is your projector from the screen?
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post #1956 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
I agree on the Radiance Pro. I've got a 4446 that I bought at its inception and have enjoyed it ever since. It's my source switcher, calibration patch generator, 1D and 3DLUT holder, dynamic tone mapper, etc. Yes, it is expensive, but IMO worth every penny.
How user friendly? By that I mean were you already an amateur calibratior? Just wondering with little local support here. Had a renowned calibrator here and he was not a big fan. Just wondering not sure if I would ever take the plunge...but the glowing reviews make it hard to ignore.

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post #1957 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 03:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffg8 View Post
How user friendly? By that I mean were you already an amateur calibratior? Just wondering with little local support here. Had a renowned calibrator here and he was not a big fan. Just wondering not sure if I would ever take the plunge...but the glowing reviews make it hard to ignore.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You can’t just walk in expecting to do a basic calibration and then expect this thing to sing at its highest potential. You have to find out all the variables, strengths, tips, tricks and weaknesses and then exploit them to their fullest advantage to make this projector perform at its peak.

Apparently the LightSpace 3D LUT loaded into MadVR or a Radiance Pro is a good start, or at least try my HarperVision settings as a baseline to begin with.

Send that renowned calibrator to this thread to see what’s possible in case he/she encounters one again.
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post #1958 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
Some random shots from Lucy on my LK970. Projector in economic laser mode zoomed to fill 126" wide scope screen. Pictures taken with iPhone with cropping only. Projector calibrated using LightSpace 3DLUT uploaded to Radiance Pro. Radiance Pro dynamic tone mapping being used. No point to make other than this projector produces some nice sharp images.
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Is it just me or do all the images look too green?

Could be the camera white balance though.

Should show them next to source images extracted from the video.
Nice, would you mind sharing what Lumagen settings you are using? Do they have dynamic clipping at all? Those images look pretty bright in the mid tones. Is that what you are seeing in person? Probably your camera though surely.

Here are the MadVR Tone mapped source frames for some of those shots.













This is a shot I have photographed many times...



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post #1959 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JMCecil View Post
how far is your projector from the screen?
16 feet
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post #1960 of 2564 Old 04-24-2019, 07:35 PM
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Javs, I am using the default Lumagen Pro settings, after inputting my nits level at 100% white. What I see is slightly different than the iPhone pics. For example, in pic 1 the iPhone blows out the phone he’s handling, where what I see is more like what you’ve shown as reference. But, in general I think the pics are close to what I see.
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post #1961 of 2564 Old 04-25-2019, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
My calibrated LK970s did not do this. I made sure of it, even at the expense of a wider gamut.
Fair enough Dave, though surely if the gamut isn't wide enough to cover the target it has to start either clipping the saturation at the edges, or be undersaturated through the gamut to allow there to be no clipping at the edges? (there's no other way). To date there is so little actual data being posted for these units (still! amazing considering how far along we are) it's hard to get much of an idea of how these are being set up.

For example, I haven't seen details of when these are calibrated for HDR with the appropriate spells what the black level, peak lumens, resulting curve or calibrated gamut, which is a shame. The reason that is interesting is that it should be possible to simulate the resulting curve using a 3DLUT for another PJ assuming you have hit the same peak white (might need to reduce screen size) and see what the black levels look like in room. Of course can't simulate the resulting difference in ANSI for brighter scenes, but for just looking at low APL scenes it should be possible to do something to see if you'd want to live with the changes at the dark end to get the potential benefit at the top.
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post #1962 of 2564 Old 04-25-2019, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
16 feet
thank you .. Do you think 20' is ok or should I look to mount closer. I have a couple of options, but the docs are confusing about distance. Actually the docs read like it should be 30', at least to me. I'm probably misunderstanding one of the values.
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post #1963 of 2564 Old 04-25-2019, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
Javs, I am using the default Lumagen Pro settings, after inputting my nits level at 100% white. What I see is slightly different than the iPhone pics. For example, in pic 1 the iPhone blows out the phone he’s handling, where what I see is more like what you’ve shown as reference. But, in general I think the pics are close to what I see.
When you say "after inputting my nits level at 100% white", are you using a multiplier when entering Display Max Light in the Output > CMS settings? For a projector you shouldn't be inputting your actual measured peak nits. if that's what you've done, it would explain why the images look too bright.

For example, I run HDR at 155 nits, and my Display max Light setting is 500 nits (I probably need to revise that upwards some more, now dynamic tone mapping has been released, as it does seem to produce slightly brighter mid-tones).
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post #1964 of 2564 Old 04-25-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
When you say "after inputting my nits level at 100% white", are you using a multiplier when entering Display Max Light in the Output > CMS settings? For a projector you shouldn't be inputting your actual measured peak nits. if that's what you've done, it would explain why the images look too bright.

For example, I run HDR at 155 nits, and my Display max Light setting is 500 nits (I probably need to revise that upwards some more, now dynamic tone mapping has been released, as it does seem to produce slightly brighter mid-tones).
From the manual it appears I've been setting this erroneously. I've been using 150-250 depending on which projector I'm using, giving my preferred brightness. It seems I should set this nearer to the default setting of 500. So, yes, my images probably show the midtones higher than they should be. I'll change that, but won't post newer pics as they'd still show a sharp image.
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post #1965 of 2564 Old 04-25-2019, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
When you say "after inputting my nits level at 100% white", are you using a multiplier when entering Display Max Light in the Output > CMS settings? For a projector you shouldn't be inputting your actual measured peak nits. if that's what you've done, it would explain why the images look too bright.

For example, I run HDR at 155 nits, and my Display max Light setting is 500 nits (I probably need to revise that upwards some more, now dynamic tone mapping has been released, as it does seem to produce slightly brighter mid-tones).
If what you say is up to date for the Lumagen DTM, and from what you are describing, lumagen dynamic tone mapping seems to still be using a fixed "display target nits / display max light setting" as madVR used to do in the past.
In that state, only the movie peak defined in bt2390 is adjusted dynamically based on the measured frame peak.

In that level of development, projector users do have to lie and use a factor for the target nits so that the highlights become less compressed.

Here a bit of history about madVR evolution in dynamic tone mapping:

MadVR went through that phase at some point with a static target nits for all movies a long time ago.
While having a dynamic tone mapping up to the frame peak nits still helps a lot for decompressing the picture and give it back some pop, it's still far from optimal. A static target nits is a compromise for brightness and picture depth over all movies available.

Later on, @Manni01 introduced profile rules based on your REAL nits on the screen and the maxCLL of the movie to automatically select an appropriate target nits per movie.
For a movie like blade runner 2049 with 99% of all frame peak below 150nits, it makes no sense to have a display target nits higher than that... EXCEPT if your display real nits is higher. Then you should use that instead so that you watch the movie with the correct brightness, and not brighter than intended.

Later on came the possibility to pre measure movie and to get more usefull variable like avgfmll, which is the avg frame peak throughout the movie. And then the target nits profiled evolved to use that instead of the often useless maxcll.

And then later again, Anna and I introduced a dynamic target nits algo within a add-on tool for madVR based on the measured histogram and peak.

Goal 1) is to have nits for nits rendered at the screen whenever possible for example if the frame peak is lower than your real nits at the screen. For that to happen you need know to tell the truth about your real nits. In your case 150nits. Any frame with a peak lower than 150nits, will be rendered perfectly /no compression with the original brightness. Target nits =real display nits.

Goal 2) is to never compress to much the highlights which would create a flat image. If the analysed frame is bright (high Fall value), then you need a higher target nits than your real nits. How high will depend on the frame. The meg can need target nits above 1000nits in some cases. But never higher than the frame peak because this would throw away brightness.

The Fall algo from our tool "madmeasurehdr optimizer" is now directly available in the LIVE algo without pre measurement needed.

Dynamic Target nits was kind of a revolution since you get much more brightness whenever possible and much more picture depth whenever needed, per movie and changing dynamically during a movie.

And dynamic target nits is only possible if madVR/Lumagen knows your real nits.

:-)

So we should probably differentiate or at least clarify what exactly is doing the Lumagen compared to madVR.

MadVR dynamic tone mapping per frame/scene includes:

- dynamic movie peak adjusted to frame peak
- dynamic target nits
- dynamic clipping
As a consequence dark scene below your real display nits will all look identical regardless of the max projector lumens and nits on the screen.
And bright scene will preserve hdr effect and contrast but will only be displayed less bright than intended.

:-)

Last edited by Soulnight; 04-25-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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post #1966 of 2564 Old 04-25-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JMCecil View Post
thank you .. Do you think 20' is ok or should I look to mount closer. I have a couple of options, but the docs are confusing about distance. Actually the docs read like it should be 30', at least to me. I'm probably misunderstanding one of the values.
I don't know the size of your screen, but from 20' the smallest size image (minimum zoom) is around 130" diagonal on a 16:9 screen.
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post #1967 of 2564 Old 04-25-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
I don't know the size of your screen, but from 20' the smallest size image (minimum zoom) is around 130" diagonal on a 16:9 screen.
Thanks, I have a wall that is 10’ High by 19’ ... so that’s a good size. I actually only have the top 6’4” for display purposes, but that will work. Thanks for the info. I’ve been trying to find an optimal distance before I run cable in the plenum. I might go 18’ instead of 20’. Can I assume that will increase brightness at a loss of size, especially in 2;xxx movie mode.
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post #1968 of 2564 Old 04-26-2019, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
If what you say is up to date for the Lumagen DTM, and from what you are describing, lumagen dynamic tone mapping seems to still be using a fixed "display target nits / display max light setting" as madVR used to do in the past.
Flo, I've cross-quoted your post to the Lumagen thread where its more on topic than here, then Jim can also hopefully provide more clarity for you on how the LUmagen DTM is working.

See here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...l#post57956600
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post #1969 of 2564 Old 04-26-2019, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
You can’t just walk in expecting to do a basic calibration and then expect this thing to sing at its highest potential. You have to find out all the variables, strengths, tips, tricks and weaknesses and then exploit them to their fullest advantage to make this projector perform at its peak.

Apparently the LightSpace 3D LUT loaded into MadVR or a Radiance Pro is a good start, or at least try my HarperVision settings as a baseline to begin with.

Send that renowned calibrator to this thread to see what’s possible in case he/she encounters one again.

hi dave

do you use a hd fury with lk 970 and panasonic ub 820 for 4k hdr ?
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post #1970 of 2564 Old 04-26-2019, 09:28 AM
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Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone, who has a 970, if you can tell me the firmware version of your projector.
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post #1971 of 2564 Old 04-26-2019, 10:19 AM
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Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone, who has a 970, if you can tell me the firmware version of your projector.
I have firmware 1.0.2
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hi dave



do you use a hd fury with lk 970 and panasonic ub 820 for 4k hdr ?

Yes you have to use an HDFURY Linker or Vertex in order to send native HDR to it since it doesn’t accept it normally. This device tricks the source into thinking your display is HDR BT2020/P3 capable.
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I have firmware 1.0.2



Ok thank you for that info. Just wondering because I had to return my LK970 I received a month ago because the image didn't look right no matter what settings I used or what the source was. I used directv, a Panasonic UB820, or a Roku 4k streamer and although the image was really good at times, more often it was not very good. I had to turn my receiver's video resolution to 4k to get a decent picture. I also saw quite a bit of RBE and I've had DLPs before without the RBE effect at all. I took a chance and asked BenQ if another refurbished one could be sent to me and they agreed. I received another one on Thursday and right away noticed a much better picture. It was a pretty drastic difference with the only thing different that I noticed is the first one I received had ver 1.0 firmware and this one has 1.01. I am going to play with the projector this weekend but I can tell right away everything looks so much better. I guess it really is a toss of the dice when you get projectors as to if you will get a good sample or not.
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post #1974 of 2564 Old 04-28-2019, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Nice, would you mind sharing what Lumagen settings you are using? Do they have dynamic clipping at all? Those images look pretty bright in the mid tones. Is that what you are seeing in person? Probably your camera though surely.

Here are the MadVR Tone mapped source frames for some of those shots.

I had a bit of fun with this yesterday, deleted my previous rambling post. In short, for me with my low peak nits (74) the balance of the scene above doesn't much start to look like the madVR rendering until I increased the lumagen DML to 700, which was a fair bit higher than I'd previously set it (admittedly by eye based on previous results with the intensity mapping feature). Ignore the colour balance and my Sony A7 seems to pump up the colour a bit. You can see the source image from you in the laptop screen below.



Anyway, I'm carrying on the further discussion of the detail of setting the DML parameter over in the Lumagen thread. Thanks for sharing the images.
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post #1975 of 2564 Old 04-28-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Nice, would you mind sharing what Lumagen settings you are using? Do they have dynamic clipping at all? Those images look pretty bright in the mid tones. Is that what you are seeing in person? Probably your camera though surely.

Here are the MadVR Tone mapped source frames for some of those shots.
Javs, I must say those images look really nice. I just get the impression that they should be a touch brighter without effecting the contrast that much. This may be possible via calibration and adjusting the gamma curve a bit.

Does this projector incorporate FI (Frame interpolation) to prevent judder that is normally apparent in fast action sports ?

Does it have an in-built scaler to scale 1080p to 4K ?

Does it have in-built tone-mapping ability ? - I ask because for this to work effectively the projector would have to have the ability to control luminosity directly based on the incoming metadata.

Is it capable of 100% DCI-P3 in a dedicated light controlled environment ?

Please Note - I was referring to the post with multiple images and not your recent post above this one.

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Hi Dave

Ok thank you 🙂
This week I try the lk970 with my htpc and madvr settings..the result is very good with a simple bluray in upscaling mode..perhaps it is possible I try the lk990 model for comparison..
The lk 990 have many colors gamut rec 709 ,rec 2020 and dci p3...
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Yes you have to use an HDFURY Linker or Vertex in order to send native HDR to it since it doesn’t accept it normally. This device tricks the source into thinking your display is HDR BT2020/P3 capable.
What? The Panasonic 820 won't sent native HDR to the LK970? Is this a fault in the LK970 or in the 820?

Does the Panasonic 9000 have this same bug?

Thanks,

Scott
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post #1978 of 2564 Old 04-28-2019, 12:05 PM
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What? The Panasonic 820 won't sent native HDR to the LK970? Is this a fault in the LK970 or in the 820?



Does the Panasonic 9000 have this same bug?



Thanks,



Scott
It's not a bug. LK970 does not support HDR.

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BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Javs, I must say those images look really nice. I just get the impression that they should be a touch brighter without effecting the contrast that much. This may be possible via calibration and adjusting the gamma curve a bit.



Does this projector incorporate FI (Frame interpolation) to prevent judder that is normally apparent in fast action sports ?



Does it have an in-built scaler to scale 1080p to 4K ?



Does it have in-built tone-mapping ability ? - I ask because for this to work effectively the projector would have to have the ability to control luminosity directly based on the incoming metadata.



Is it capable of 100% DCI-P3 in a dedicated light controlled environment ?



Please Note - I was referring to the post with multiple images and not your recent post above this one.

I’m not Javs, but I’m known to have a little knowledge on this projector. Plus he hasn’t see it used the LK970, only the LK990.

Answers:

1. FI = No

2. Scaler = Yes (not great with interlaced/1080i though)

3. Tone Map = No. It doesn’t even support HDR natively. This is where something like a Lumagen Radiance Pro, MadVR or my HarperVision settings come into play.

4. P3 - No not 100%, close to about 91% overall. I’ve hit much closer to 100% using filters but at the expense of too much light for my taste.
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post #1980 of 2564 Old 04-28-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Javs, I must say those images look really nice. I just get the impression that they should be a touch brighter without effecting the contrast that much. This may be possible via calibration and adjusting the gamma curve a bit.



Does this projector incorporate FI (Frame interpolation) to prevent judder that is normally apparent in fast action sports ?



Does it have an in-built scaler to scale 1080p to 4K ?



Does it have in-built tone-mapping ability ? - I ask because for this to work effectively the projector would have to have the ability to control luminosity directly based on the incoming metadata.



Is it capable of 100% DCI-P3 in a dedicated light controlled environment ?



Please Note - I was referring to the post with multiple images and not your recent post above this one.
Dave has answered your questions but I should clarify the images I shared here of LUCY are direct screengrabs from the source file. There is no projector involved. It is how MadVR tone maps them based on a 120nit peak. So if you look at those shots on an average brightness computer monitor and think they should be brighter, that is your subjective opinion and not actually what the disc calls for. Which was my point in posting the source files.

Also need to remember you should be watching films in a dark room. If you put these images on a large screen in a dark room, you will realise it looks completely normal and balanced.
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Last edited by Javs; 04-28-2019 at 02:01 PM.
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