BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 68 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2011 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Read his question... he has an NX5
Being in the LK970 thread, thought that was the projector being discussed. Sorry. I agree, i would use auto and let the projector do the HDR tone mapping.
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post #2012 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Being in the LK970 thread, thought that was the projector being discussed. Sorry. I agree, i would use auto and let the projector do the HDR tone mapping.
Understandable. No worries.

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post #2013 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
Then you have a poor memory.



With looking into this and Z1 threads history you will see People go from "Woofer sent back the lk970" and then when people responded with "Well woofer said he actually preferred the 970 for some stuff" the same people responded with "Well obviously his Z1 isnt set up right" and then "well obviously woofer needs to get his Z1 calibrated" and when @woofer said his z1 was setup right and was calibrated, they responded with "well woofer obviously doesnt know what he is talking about"



I dont need to name names or go back in the forums to dig it up. But I assure you I have seen exactly what Woofer is speaking of.



I have seen people from both camps attack him and his credibility just for reporting his honest opinions.
His Z1 is not calibrated just for clarity. And he definitely did not send his 970 back. His friend bought it off him.
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post #2014 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I wasn’t speaking of the comparison per se’. I was speaking of the LK970’s black level representation, which WAS ridiculously exaggerated. Not that you did it intentionally, but it was. Most likely because as has come to light, it wasn’t calibrated.

I had an AVS cherry picked RS600 around the same time I got my first LK970 iirc. I had a Sony VW885ES at the same time. And a few others all in the same timeframe. I’m not an idiot. I KNOW what a good black level and native contrast looks like. Javs isn’t the only one “in the business” like people like to tout around here. I’ve been doing this type of stuff for 25-30+ years in almost all facets. I was the commandant of a schoolhouse teaching radio and TV broadcasting.

I’m not lecturing you and you’re the only one getting all emotional. I know for a FACT the LK970 can and does look better than what you posted, period! I have had one for over a year, tweaking and calibrating for hours on end over and over again. I think I should be afforded the same benefit of the doubt as everyone else on this forum who says the same thing about their projector of choice and time with it! If it doesn’t look like that to YOU, then it’s YOUR issue pal, NOT mine or others on the forum!!! It’s not MY fault you can’t do what I can do! Sorry if the truth hurts.

If me being dismissed as a fool and time after time being called a liar and a charlatan that doesn’t deserve his certifications, then YES, I DO have “an issue”, with you or anyone else that keeps doing so towards me!!! So be it. There is an ignore feature and nobody is asking people to come into the LK970 or LK990 threads. If you don’t like what you read, ignore or leave.
Hey Dave, no offense intended here. But the LK970 you sent to us, which my friend loves, didn't look too far off from that photo represented on that scene when we compared it to the RS500. The first time we popped it up it caused us both to laugh out loud. We were both expecting it to look terrible. Luckily, my friend doesn't watch a lot of scifi and the LK970 looks fantastic on everything he does watch. He still loves the projector.

Edit: and while @woofer didn't do a full calibration he did do basics like setting black levels etc. That one scene isn't impacted by gamma etc. It's pure true black.

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post #2015 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Hey Dave, no offense intended here. But the LK970 you sent to us, which my friend loves, didn't look too far off from that photo represented on that scene when we compared it to the RS500. The first time we popped it up it caused us both to laugh out loud. We were both expecting it to look terrible. Luckily, my friend doesn't watch a lot of scifi and the LK970 looks fantastic on everything he does watch. He still loves the projector.

Then read my response to woofer. What was your source being sent. I think you told me you didn’t even use my settings. You used tone mapped HDR to SDR, right?
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post #2016 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Then read my response to woofer.
Isn't that what I quoted above? There's a reason we keep using this scene to compare black levels. It's true black. Gamma adjustments or calibration won't improve it.

You say you've been in the business 30 years and know good black levels etc. You said "JVC is not the only game in town". What other projector produces black levels the likes of JVC (for under $100k)?

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post #2017 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Isn't that what I quoted above? There's a reason we keep using this scene to compare black levels. It's true black. Gamma adjustments or calibration won't improve it.



You say you've been in the business 30 years and know good black levels etc. You said "JVC is not the only game in town". What other projector produces black levels the likes of JVC (for under $100k)?

It isn’t all about black levels.

Please show me ONCE where I said the LKs have as good of a black level as the JVCs! I never said that so don’t put words in my mouth!!!!

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post #2018 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
It isn’t all about black levels.
On that one scene, it is.
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post #2019 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
On that one scene, it is.

And mine doesn’t look that way.
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post #2020 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
And mine doesn’t look that way.
Lets see the side-by-side with the LK970 and the RS4500 you took then? Or the LK970 and any JVC RS500 or newer eshift will do.

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post #2021 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
And mine doesn’t look that way.
Then you should get your eyes checked.

The 990 looks horrific on that scene. This is SDR, 1080p, that scene is the true black floor of the projector. No amount of menu tweaking will improve the true black floor of these projectors.

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post #2022 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Lets see the side-by-side with the LK970 and the RS4500 you took then? Or the LK970 and any JVC RS500 or newer eshift will do.

I said it wasn’t about the comparison. Again, read my reply to woofer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Then you should get your eyes checked.

The 990 looks horrific on that scene. This is SDR, 1080p, that scene is the true black floor of the projector. No amount of menu tweaking will improve the true black floor of these projectors.

Then you should get your abilities checked. Mine didn’t look that way. So you’re an expert on the LKs now, after a couple weeks? You know how it was engineered and how all the features of the system work together? You don’t even have an LK970, nor have you ever. I can at least speak from experience of the two, and they aren’t the same. They’re very different.
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post #2023 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I said it wasn’t about the comparison. Again, read my reply to woofer.




Then you should get your abilities checked. Mine didn’t look that way. So you’re an expert on the LKs now, after a couple weeks? You know how it was engineered and how all the features of the system work together? You don’t even have an LK970, nor have you ever. I can at least speak from experience of the two, and they aren’t the same. They’re very different.
You are far from a wizard. If a bunch of people cannot find the black floor of these projectors within minutes they don't know what they are doing. That is not the case here, stop making yourself out to be some clairvoyant of BenQ, they are really simple machines and no different from anything else I have looked at.

The 990 has the same native contrast by the way, a bees dick more dynamic. I know because I measured it and compared notes with other people which you have not done STILL. All this time and you have failed to measure anything!

Not only that you have a user here who literally had YOUR unit in his room and came to the very same conclusion and we are all supposed to take your word that 'mine didn't look like that' in the face of all that?

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post #2024 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 10:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You are far from a wizard. If a bunch of people cannot find the black floor of these projectors within minutes they don't know what they are doing. That is not the case here, stop making yourself out to be some clairvoyant of BenQ, they are really simple machines and no different from anything else I have looked at.

The 990 has the same native contrast by the way, a bees dick more dynamic. I know because I measured it and compared notes with other people which you have not done STILL. All this time and you have failed to measure anything!

Not only that you have a user here who literally had YOUR unit in his room and came to the very same conclusion and we are all supposed to take your word that 'mine didn't look like that' in the face of all that?

It's a joke.

Yep.

I did measure. Again, markmon didn’t use my settings. The black that displays when sending a static black image is not the black floor. That’s been established here long ago. Try to keep up wolverine.
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post #2025 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Yep.

I did measure. Again, markmon didn’t use my settings. The black that displays when sending a static black image is not the black floor. That’s been established here long ago. Try to keep up wolverine.
Interstellar is SDR 1080P BLURAY.

It has exactly zero to do with your harpervision settings.
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post #2026 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 11:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Interstellar is SDR 1080P BLURAY.

It has exactly zero to do with your harpervision settings.

OK, welcome to 2007.

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post #2027 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 11:50 PM
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Insert Popcorn gif...

Damn this is about to get better than End Game!
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post #2028 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Insert Popcorn gif...

Damn this is about to get better than End Game!
Wait..What...noooo I haven't seen End Game yet..NO SPOILERS
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post #2029 of 2564 Old 04-30-2019, 11:58 PM
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OK, welcome to 2007.
It's not that we use that bluray SDR version because we are just old and obsolete. It's because the HDR version has a raised black floor so you cannot use it. There are other movies that can be used but this one is just well known so it's a perfect test for that aspect of performance.

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post #2030 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 12:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
It's not that we use that bluray SDR version because we are just old and obsolete. It's because the HDR version has a raised black floor so you cannot use it. There are other movies that can be used but this one is just well known so it's a perfect test for that aspect of performance.

Whatever. I don’t need preaching or lecturing to. I knew that Mark. I’m sick of the condescending tone people reply to me with, like I’m some sort of idiot with my first projector. You all wonder why I fight back. If you walk past a dog every day and smack it on your way past each time, don’t then wonder why it finally bites your a**.

I really just don’t care anymore. That’s pretty much what it boils down to. People here really need to get a life. I simply don’t have time to play all the home theater games with my toys all the time because I actually have one!
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post #2031 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 01:17 AM
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Whatever. I don’t need preaching or lecturing to. I knew that Mark. I’m sick of the condescending tone people reply to me with, like I’m some sort of idiot with my first projector. You all wonder why I fight back. If you walk past a dog every day and smack it on your way past each time, don’t then wonder why it finally bites your a**.

I really just don’t care anymore. That’s pretty much what it boils down to. People here really need to get a life. I simply don’t have time to play all the home theater games with my toys all the time because I actually have one!
But its confusing. Because if you knew that, then why would you say I didn't use your settings? We did use your settings. We just didn't use your harpervision settings for HDR because we didn't send raw HDR to the projector and were tone mapping with madVR. If you knew that the scene we are all talking about is SDR, then why the 2007 crack and why the indication that we didn't use your settings? You sent the projector, we didn't do any tweaking with it really and did use your settings.

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post #2032 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 01:38 AM
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LK990 vs JVC X9500 INTERSTELLAR.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57980998
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post #2033 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 02:36 AM
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What point is it that you are trying to make, Mark?

This thread has digressed so far from what it used to be just a couple of weeks ago ... several people who were talking about their 970s and how it compared to their old projectors and people who were interested in the 970/990 and were afraid to take the leap of their experience with low contrast projectors.

There are several people here who love their JVCs and Sony’s (i loved both) and who used to think that contrast ratio and black levels were king who now prefer the image from the lk970 despite its low contrast ratio.

To many of the folks on these threads we are very grateful to Dave, 12gage, and tnaik for sharing their opinions and settings because without them we likely would not have taken a shot at the lk970 because of our preconceived notions.

I am sure you are a great guy but you seem to be an antagonist here - and not Dave.

I understand that some folks will always prefer the JVC image but that doesn’t change the fact that there are several folks here who used to be/or still are JVC and or Sony folks who see it exactly like Dave sees it.

Is it really that hard to believe?

Do you think that the people that do just don’t really know what they are talking about, or are misinformed?

I do appreciate opposing views but I believe that we are all better off if we don’t take those views personally.

What happens then is that Something that was VERY productive and helpful to a lot of folks, myself included, becomes a slog fest soap opera.

I’ve been on the forums for a long time and seen a lot of the drama with all the different technologies, resolutions, brands, etc over the years and I would really appreciate it if we could just keep these threads relevant and positive.
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post #2034 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 03:47 AM
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This thread has digressed so far from what it used to be just a couple of weeks ago ... several people who were talking about their 970s and how it compared to their old projectors and people who were interested in the 970/990 and were afraid to take the leap of their experience with low contrast projectors.

To many of the folks on these threads we are very grateful to Dave, 12gage, and tnaik for sharing their opinions and settings because without them we likely would not have taken a shot at the lk970 because of our preconceived notions.
Yes agreed.....this thread has deteriorated which is a pity.... I admit that i have lost my temper on a couple of occasions in relation to a couple of Daves comments aimed my way.

Some/all of the heated exchanges revolve around the infamous "interstellar " scene .....this isn't and NEVER will be a strong point of the LK970...this is just a simple fact. Native 1000: and Dynamic 4000:1 Contrast tells anybody this.

My initial comparo to my Z1/S4500 and X9900 showed that the LOW APL results of the LK970 were not in the same league of the JVC,s....BUT that was to be fully expected.

What it also showed is that on a lot of content the LK970 throws an awesome image sometimes "Exceeding" my Z1/RS4500.....i have repeatably said this from the word go.

My mate who has the Sony 760ES fell in love with the LK970 .......he is perfectly happy to accept the drawbacks of the LOW APL performance because of the other great aspects of the LK970,s image.

Dave got under my skin as such because of his reaction to the "interstellar" scene i posted, because i will say again....on THIS scene the LK97O falls FLAT on its ass!! He seems to continually neglect ALL of the many positives i have stated in regards to the LK970.

The LK970 is a terrific PJ, and like ALL PJ,s it has weaknesses......and in this instance LOW APL,s is the LK970,s weakness.

Once @Javs has finished with the LK990 its comming down to me for a couple of weeks, i will be comparing that to my Z1/RS4500 and X9900 and my mates 760ES....BUT this time i dont think i will bother posting any feedback on here ( AVS)......

Have fun all...
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post #2035 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 04:24 AM
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This black floor thing is purley a question of how someone reacts on or recognizes blacks- seeing and accepting it or not.
For me raised up with poor black floor in cinemas and on tv I do not care much.
I buy everything as long as my brain responds this is black or very dark. So maybe the constant conditioning in my past live is to blame for this.

I guess the poeple fighting here are having one different level of accepting black as black.
And we all know on a white screen the black is and will be (in best case) the white of the screen as long we are using front projection.


Today I own also 65" Panasonic 4K HDR TV and do know a good "black floor " but it is not that I must have this also on the big screen.
I did visit a ONYX LED cinema recently (showing Captain Marvel) the picture had these deep blacks and nits you want to put on sun glasses sometimes.
But overall the screen was not big enough for a real cinema experience in my opinion.
I will go see Endgame on a bigger screen with a usual PJ. And also not in 3D beacause they can not do it right around here.
And seeing the lower black floor will also make me feel being home again... ;-)

If someone says the LK970/990 has bad or horrible black floor - well I do not care much - I know it already - I own one.
An if Dave says it does not look that bad with his PJ - I do understand him also. For me it does also look good enough.

Javs and maybe many others can not understand this, why should someone be OK with this "horrible" black floor?

I try to explain why it is for me no big problem.
If you are seeing a picture like the interstellar screenshot.
What do you see?
Many stars and a little spaceship!
And very much black space.

So not much to see there anyway!

And if you are lucky the director put some color in space e. g. red or blue fog and some bigger stars.
You are able to see all this even with a DLP - just brighter!

You like it more living on the dark side?
So DLP is not the first choice, that is for sure.

It is a pitty we are not able to meet and drinking a beer togehter - think that would help a lot to understand and accept each other much better.
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post #2036 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 04:34 AM
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1st of all I wanted to thank Woofer for his contributions here.I look at you as a straight shooter in terms of these units. I think that is always valuable for people who don't have the opportunity to see these units. Dave is a pioneer in terms of these units and I know without his advice and commentary I wouldn't have one. (I greatly thank him for that) I think people should try not to feed into the back and forth and not take these comments personal. Sometimes the comments have reached that very petty point though. I think that some of Dave's issue is that the comparison pictures are no where close to what he see on his units in his environment. It doesn't make them invalid but it is important to point out that the environment matters and the perception of black level comes into play as well as the numbers. In my environment, the interstellar scene looks great no issues. It is not hazy gray at all. It looks like proper black. However if I brought in a true black 0 nit background around that image I do understand it would greatly change my perception of that scene as these comparison shots point out. I have no issues with that and the 970's weak point is low apl performance that is a fact at the same time the environment can magnify that issue or lessen it from a perception standpoint.




Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Yes agreed.....this thread has deteriorated which is a pity.... I admit that i have lost my temper on a couple of occasions in relation to a couple of Daves comments aimed my way.

Some/all of the heated exchanges revolve around the infamous "interstellar " scene .....this isn't and NEVER will be a strong point of the LK970...this is just a simple fact. Native 1000: and Dynamic 4000:1 Contrast tells anybody this.

My initial comparo to my Z1/S4500 and X9900 showed that the LOW APL results of the LK970 were not in the same league of the JVC,s....BUT that was to be fully expected.

What it also showed is that on a lot of content the LK970 throws an awesome image sometimes "Exceeding" my Z1/RS4500.....i have repeatably said this from the word go.

My mate who has the Sony 760ES fell in love with the LK970 .......he is perfectly happy to accept the drawbacks of the LOW APL performance because of the other great aspects of the LK970,s image.

Dave got under my skin as such because of his reaction to the "interstellar" scene i posted, because i will say again....on THIS scene the LK97O falls FLAT on its ass!! He seems to continually neglect ALL of the many positives i have stated in regards to the LK970.

The LK970 is a terrific PJ, and like ALL PJ,s it has weaknesses......and in this instance LOW APL,s is the LK970,s weakness.

Once @Javs has finished with the LK990 its comming down to me for a couple of weeks, i will be comparing that to my Z1/RS4500 and X9900 and my mates 760ES....BUT this time i dont think i will bother posting any feedback on here ( AVS)......

Have fun all...
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post #2037 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 07:00 AM
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hi
i have been using the lk970 for a while, i have tried the dave settings which are really good.
i also have benq 11000 and i have tried a lot of sony and jvc projectors ..
the lk970 is an excellent projector dlp with superb optics that opens the window on the outside.
it has a lot of qualities but as any dlp the black is not better than jvc, but the lk970 has a better ansi and dynamic than jvc!
in my dark room on blade runner 2049 with my white canvas the scenes of deep black are difficult to display, and with a light rejection canvas with negative gain 0.8 I can have a black head similar to jvc! and sometimes better because the dynamics of the lk970 on the canvas rejection of light brings a typical image jvc but more dynamic with a similar black ..

the lk970 will never be a jvc z1 and the z1 will never be an lk970 ..it just accept the limits of the projector and make the right combination with the canvas .. lk970 5000 lumens with gray cloth 0.8 gives a very good result in dynamic and black level.
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post #2038 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
The only person I've seen attacking him is Dave Harper. My memory is not poor. I was part of these threads. I didn't see any of the comments you listed above.

There were some cases where, on specific screenshots, there was specific discussion. Nothing wrong with that. However, it could be that you're taking some of these comments out of context. As woofer has stated repeatedly that all around, he prefers his Z1 over anything else. He was very impressed with the LK970 (as was I) and he preferred the LK970 on some stuff. Further, woofer has never had his Z1 (or LK970) calibrated, and he admits it. So, woofer never said his Z1 was "setup right and was calibrated" because it wasn't calibrated. I don't think anyone has said woofer doesn't know what he's talking about. He gets a lot of respect around here.

You made some ridiculous statements with "I dont need to name names or go back in the forums to dig it up". Unfortunately, I don't believe this happened. So I think you *do* need to name names or go back and dig it up. Otherwise you should drop it as it didn't happen the way you say.
Lol. So Woofer remembers it, AND I remember it. But because YOU dont, you want me to go back and find all of the posts?

If you want to believe that we are both misremembering the same thing, then you can go on believing that, because I honestly dont give a damn what you believe lol.
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post #2039 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It's no doubt that most 4k shifting DLP's (even some of the cheaper ones) can beat a Native 4k LCOS in bright content due to sharpness, but could also depend on sample quality.
DLP has less Russian Roulette, we all know that.

Of course there are advantages, just wish they'd make a bit more effort towards increasing contrast.
DLP's are really interesting in the sub-$2k market.
I think DLP's are interesting in the above 3k market also simply because of light output. How much money do you have to throw at these other technologies to get above a 150" with some headroom for HDR? Seems like this LK970 can throw a pretty good huge picture for 5k refurbed? Can anything else do that? I am asking earnestly, I am almost done with my theater and have a 204" 16:9 screen and have no idea what projector is even available without a second mortgage.
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post #2040 of 2564 Old 05-01-2019, 10:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
But its confusing. Because if you knew that, then why would you say I didn't use your settings? We did use your settings. We just didn't use your harpervision settings for HDR because we didn't send raw HDR to the projector and were tone mapping with madVR. If you knew that the scene we are all talking about is SDR, then why the 2007 crack and why the indication that we didn't use your settings? You sent the projector, we didn't do any tweaking with it really and did use your settings.

I’m not only speaking of an interstellar scene and a direct comparison of a JVC. Why is this so dang hard for people to grasp? I am talking about the BLACK that was represented in that image posted. Mine does not look that way, period. People’s inabilities are no longer my issue.

For any HDR, since you say you didn’t use my settings then I no longer want to hear your opinion on the matter because it’s moot, just as I can’t speak for MadVR’s performance since I haven’t used that yet.

Sorry, I don’t watch 1080p Blu-ray if I can help it. It’s ancient in this day and age. The 2007 crack stands in my opinion, just as your hate for imperfect blacks does for you. Which I find ironic because you also decided to compromise pure black level with your RS4500 for all its better attributes. Hmmmm, sounds vaguely familiar..........


Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
........Dave got under my skin as such because of his reaction to the "interstellar" scene i posted, because i will say again....on THIS scene the LK97O falls FLAT on its ass!! He seems to continually neglect ALL of the many positives i have stated in regards to the LK970..........

So tell me again how contesting a negative that you posted equates to “negating all the positives you said” about it? So when Kris writes a review, if he posts any negatives along with the positives of a product, it negates ALL of them? What logic is that? Funny how folks say I take things too personal, yet you’ve done the same thing.

So what did you guys use as a source? Let me guess, you tone mapped HDR to SDR, right?

Ironic how everyone questions ME, even though they don’t even use my settings, but the ones that have tend to agree with me.

Lastly, on MY LK970, space scenes don’t like as you posted.
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