BenQ LK970: 4K DLP, laser, $12,999k MSRP - Page 73 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2161 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I am going to try your settings, I mentioned I would before. I just literally took it out of the box and got some simple settings in and wanted to see what my first impression was. I haven't done any tweaking yet. I fully plan on trying your settings and seeing what I can get through other avenues as well.



The Celerity cables have had issues in a lot of installs I've seen. For longer than 25 ft runs I always recommend the Monoprice fiber cables or the Ruipro. I rarely, if ever, see any issues with those.

OK cool.

I’ve heard the same, thanks for confirming.
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post #2162 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
The ONLY way the RS4500 will almost keep up with these others is to run it on high all the time and mount it short throw . The noise is obnoxious when running on high, be prepared to deal with that plus build a hush box for cooling and ventilation that will also be required once it is contained in a hush box. The others will work without anamorphic lens, long throw and still have plenty of light , that is the difference that has to be considered . The RS4500 will also need a lumagen or other scaler if a Paladin DCR is considered , for an ISCO 1.33X a lumagen is not required .


One more thing many don't know about the RS4500, it does not dim in steps like other laser projectors . You get max , mid and low , Sony and most others are variable throughout the range and I use various intermediate levels depending on the movie. One last thing, the RS4500 is 8400:1 contrast at full laser not the 20,000 others mention , that is the mid laser value . Somehow the RS4500 is measured differently for some odd reason, most confuse this value . When compared to how all others have been rated and discussed , which is at full light output for the largest screen possible, the RS4500 when done the same way is 8400:1 and that has never changed from day one .
Not to dispute the above numbers because there's always a variation between tests, but it is interesting to compare the RS4500 to the HT9060:

Chris Eberle measured the RS4500 at high laser and found: "...the white level goes to 63.1435fL, black is .0108fL, and contrast is 5863.6:1..." and he measured the HT9060 in Smart Eco and found:

"...a peak white of 213.8895 nits [62fl], a black level of .0475 nit[.014fl], and a contrast ratio of 4505.1:1..." so these two PJs are very similar in these basic stats.
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post #2163 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 12:32 PM
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Chris gave a lot of questionable information in his review of the 9060, so call me a bit skeptical on his commentary. I've measured A LOT of RS4500's and native contrast always hovers around 9-10K:1 native if setup properly. Obviously this can increase if the iris is used, though not at the same level as the other JVC's which employ a dual iris system.

Roxie's comment about the variable laser in other designs vs the 4500 with its steps is also misleading. Let's look at the 995 for example. From 100 to 0 on the laser output is only a change of 40% of overall light roughly. So depending on the setup, you can run into a situation where you can't get it low enough. I've seen this on a couple setups in fact and it can be compounded more with an Anamorphic lens. Yes the slider can let you fine tune your white level, but that is what the iris is for in the JVC. The beauty of the JVC design is that while you're tuning in your white point using the iris, you are INCREASING contrast. With the Sony design, you start losing contrast the moment you go down from 100. So the only way to actually get the contrast numbers thrown around with the Sony is to run it full output.

The high laser mode on the RS4500 is indeed loud. Some here seem to be okay with it, but it is too loud for my tastes. The Sony in its peak output is much better and more in line with the mid-laser of the JVC, which gives a comparable amount of light output. So when you compare you have to take that into account.

I will be measuring the BenQ for peak light output over the course of the next week or so, along with everything else. So we'll see how it compares to the other laser designs. The BenQ is a lot less money though, which is a great perk.
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post #2164 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 12:34 PM
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OK cool.

I’ve heard the same, thanks for confirming.
Can you post a link to your settings again? I thought you had them in your signature but it looks like those are for other projectors.

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post #2165 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Not to dispute the above numbers because there's always a variation between tests, but it is interesting to compare the RS4500 to the HT9060:



Chris Eberle measured the RS4500 at high laser and found: "...the white level goes to 63.1435fL, black is .0108fL, and contrast is 5863.6:1..." and he measured the HT9060 in Smart Eco and found:



"...a peak white of 213.8895 nits [62fl], a black level of .0475 nit[.014fl], and a contrast ratio of 4505.1:1..." so these two PJs are very similar in these basic stats.
Difference is that Benq contrast is dynamic and JVC native without any dimming. Cant really compare those.

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post #2166 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MDesigns View Post
Difference is that Benq contrast is dynamic and JVC native without any dimming. Cant really compare those.

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Looking past the contrast ratio, we can see that lumen output is very similar which was my main point.


While it's native on/off contrast ratio is less than the RS4500 it's ANSI contrast is much higher so the contrast differences between these PJs is going to be fairly complex.
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post #2167 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
One last thing, the RS4500 is 8400:1 contrast at full laser not the 20,000 others m. When compared to how all others have been rated and discussed , which is at full light output for the largest screen possible, the RS4500 when done the same way is 8400:1 and that has never changed from day one .
Roxie....No offence, but the 8400:1 is not correct.
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post #2168 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 02:24 PM
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The light output from the 9060 is closer to the light output of the 4500 in mid-laser. High laser on the 4500 is definitely brighter. BenQ has a native contrast for the 9060 around 800:1, so the RS4500 is measuring about 10x's higher in native contrast. Couple in iris use or dynamic dimming and the difference is massive. If you were to see these on the same screen with the same material, the difference would be staggering. Anyone that tells you otherwise is pushing an agenda and clearly hasn't compared them properly.

The only reason the 4500 is acceptable for contrast performance overall is the dynamic laser. If it did not have this feature, it would be pretty disappointing for overall dynamic range performance. And this is with a native contrast ratio that is 10x's the 9060's and overall double what it does when in its dynamic mode. It is just a sad circumstance when it comes to dynamic range on these DLPs. It is obvious in so much content too, not just dark scenes. If you are used to seeing a high dynamic range projector the differences stand out with all types of content, not just really dark scenes. Images look muted, washed out and flat. It also really hurts color richness. These are fantastic displays for sports, TV shows (for the most part) and gaming, but for serious movie watching in a darkened home theater they fall short in a big way when you compare them. If you've never had a high dynamic range display in a well suited room for them, then you probably don't know what you're missing and these will be great.

A V6 Honda Accord feels really fast if you've had a lot of standard sedans all your life. Jump into a 911 or a high end sports car and you realize what you've been missing. But just like projectors, to take full advantage of that kind of performance you really want to have the right environment. Most cars all feel the same at 60 mph on the freeway unless they are SERIOUSLY underpowered. But go to the track and the differences become VERY apparent. Nothing at all wrong with an Accord, it all comes down to what you need and how you drive; just like a projector.

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post #2169 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The light output from the 9060 is closer to the light output of the 4500 in mid-laser. High laser on the 4500 is definitely brighter. BenQ has a native contrast for the 9060 around 800:1, so the RS4500 is measuring about 10x's higher in native contrast. Couple in iris use or dynamic dimming and the difference is massive. If you were to see these on the same screen with the same material, the difference would be staggering. Anyone that tells you otherwise is pushing an agenda and clearly hasn't compared them properly.

The only reason the 4500 is acceptable for contrast performance overall is the dynamic laser. If it did not have this feature, it would be pretty disappointing for overall dynamic range performance. And this is with a native contrast ratio that is 10x's the 9060's and overall double what it does when in its dynamic mode. It is just a sad circumstance when it comes to dynamic range on these DLPs. It is obvious in so much content too, not just dark scenes. If you are used to seeing a high dynamic range projector the differences stand out with all types of content, not just really dark scenes. Images look muted, washed out and flat. It also really hurts color richness. These are fantastic displays for sports, TV shows (for the most part) and gaming, but for serious movie watching in a darkened home theater they fall short in a big way when you compare them. If you've never had a high dynamic range display in a well suited room for them, then you probably don't know what you're missing and these will be great.

A V6 Honda Accord feels really fast if you've had a lot of standard sedans all your life. Jump into a 911 or a high end sports car and you realize what you've been missing. But just like projectors, to take full advantage of that kind of performance you really want to have the right environment. Most cars all feel the same at 60 mph on the freeway unless they are SERIOUSLY underpowered. But go to the track and the differences become VERY apparent. Nothing at all wrong with an Accord, it all comes down to what you need and how you drive; just like a projector.
Regarding contrast / black levels etc. How do you feel the NX9 fares in this comparison (vs the 4500)? I've read your review which would seem to suggest it's an improvement, but are there some drawbacks of the NX9 I'm not aware of?

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post #2170 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 02:38 PM
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Regarding contrast / black levels etc. How do you feel the NX9 fares in this comparison (vs the 4500)? I've read your review which would seem to suggest it's an improvement, but are there some drawbacks of the NX9 I'm not aware of?
I've setup and calibrated quite a few NX-9s now. The sequential contrast varies from sample to sample for sure. I've measured some as low as around 24K:1 and as high as 30K:1. So you are looking at 3x's to almost 4x's the native contrast of the RS4500 and close to double the native contrast of the Sony models (depends on how they are setup for light output and how close they are tracking contrast performance with calibration). The problem with the NX-9 or the other new models is comparing them to the last few generations of JVC eShift models. Those are on their 12th? version of the D-ILA panel, this is the 3rd for the 4K version. Native contrast with no iris assistance on those models is typically in the 30-40K arena. They also do a bit more than the new models when you start using the dynamic iris. The difference is nowhere near as big as going from something like the BenQ to the 4500, but it is noticeable if you were used to the levels of the previous JVC line.

The dynamic iris also has some issues that manifest with very specific conditions that come into play once in a great while (the yellowing issue), but this is VERY rare in normal playback and depending on how the projector is setup it may actually never happen. The NX-7 has some other artifacts related to its dynamic mode that cause some clipping in specific circumstances that the NX-9 doesn't seem prone to. Dynamic contrast system always have issues, it is nearly impossible to have one with zero artifacts because of how they work. But think about this, if people think that a dynamic contrast of around 4K:1 is pretty good or acceptable, do you even need to use a dynamic iris when the native contrast is 7-8x's that at a minimum? The NX-9 has more native contrast than the Sony laser projectors do in dynamic mode, and you see people raving about that level of contrast performance. But there is a lot more than contrast performance that sets the NX-9 apart from the BenQ models.

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post #2171 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 02:42 PM
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I've setup and calibrated quite a few NX-9s now. The sequential contrast varies from sample to sample for sure. I've measured some as low as around 24K:1 and as high as 30K:1. So you are looking at 3x's to almost 4x's the native contrast of the RS4500 and close to double the native contrast of the Sony models (depends on how they are setup for light output and how close they are tracking contrast performance with calibration). The problem with the NX-9 or the other new models is comparing them to the last few generations of JVC eShift models. Those are on their 12th? version of the D-ILA panel, this is the 3rd for the 4K version. Native contrast with no iris assistance on those models is typically in the 30-40K arena. They also do a bit more than the new models when you start using the dynamic iris. The difference is nowhere near as big as going from something like the BenQ to the 4500, but it is noticeable if you were used to the levels of the previous JVC line.

The dynamic iris also has some issues that manifest with very specific conditions that come into play once in a great while (the yellowing issue), but this is VERY rare in normal playback and depending on how the projector is setup it may actually never happen. The NX-7 has some other artifacts related to its dynamic mode that cause some clipping in specific circumstances that the NX-9 doesn't seem prone to. Dynamic contrast system always have issues, it is nearly impossible to have one with zero artifacts because of how they work. But think about this, if people think that a dynamic contrast of around 4K:1 is pretty good or acceptable, do you even need to use a dynamic iris when the native contrast is 7-8x's that at a minimum? The NX-9 has more native contrast than the Sony laser projectors do in dynamic mode, and you see people raving about that level of contrast performance. But there is a lot more than contrast performance that sets the NX-9 apart from the BenQ models.
Awesome - thanks for such a detailed response.

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The light output from the 9060 is closer to the light output of the 4500 in mid-laser. High laser on the 4500 is definitely brighter. BenQ has a native contrast for the 9060 around 800:1, so the RS4500 is measuring about 10x's higher in native contrast.
What was the RS4500's ANSI contrast?
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post #2173 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 03:25 PM
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What was the RS4500's ANSI contrast?
Not Kris, but around 290:1 for the Z1/RS4500
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post #2174 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 03:33 PM
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Can you post a link to your settings again? I thought you had them in your signature but it looks like those are for other projectors.

I’ll have to dig up my latest ones to give to you. There’s been many iterations. You also have to make sure to do calibration on top of it.

The ones in my signature are for the Epsons. I’ll have to update that.

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........ It is just a sad circumstance when it comes to dynamic range on these DLPs. It is obvious in so much content too, not just dark scenes. If you are used to seeing a high dynamic range projector the differences stand out with all types of content, not just really dark scenes. Images look muted, washed out and flat. It also really hurts color richness. These are fantastic displays for sports, TV shows (for the most part) and gaming, but for serious movie watching in a darkened home theater they fall short in a big way when you compare them. If you've never had a high dynamic range display in a well suited room for them, then you probably don't know what you're missing and these will be great........

This has not been my experience at all with the LK970, and more so with the LK990 with SmartEco. Of course you all know that already.

Sure and it’s a given the JVCs, Sony’s etc. have much better native contrast and deeper black floors, but as soon as you climb up out of very low APL the LKs take over from my experience and are not anywhere near “...muted, washed out and flat”.. This is actually a strength on them and one big reason and feature that makes me like these better overall, even with worse performing native contrast/blacks. Also, the colors are very rich and pop quite nicely. I’m sure more due to the color brightness (especially down low!) than saturation though.
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post #2175 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 03:40 PM
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Not Kris, but around 290:1 for the Z1/RS4500

And the LKs are like 860:1.
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post #2176 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 03:54 PM
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What was the RS4500's ANSI contrast?
Looks like some others already posted. While I would love for all contrast ratios to be infinite, I honestly don't care much about ANSI. By the time you have an APL of 50% (ANSI) the amount of black on a screen is extremely small and the brighter objects around them make them look like ink black. I've tested this many times with low ANSI projectors vs really high ANSI projectors with as many types of brighter images as we can find and the difference is either non existent or extremely fleeting. Plus I take nearly any ANSI measurement with a MASSIVE grain of salt because measuring it properly is nearly impossible.
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I’ll have to dig up my latest ones to give to you. There’s been many iterations. You also have to make sure to do calibration on top of it.

The ones in my signature are for the Epsons. I’ll have to update that.




This has not been my experience at all with the LK970, and more so with the LK990 with SmartEco. Of course you all know that already.

Sure and it’s a given the JVCs, Sony’s etc. have much better native contrast and deeper black floors, but as soon as you climb up out of very low APL the LKs take over from my experience and are not anywhere near “...muted, washed out and flat”.. This is actually a strength on them and one big reason and feature that makes me like these better overall, even with worse performing native contrast/blacks. Also, the colors are very rich and pop quite nicely. I’m sure more due to the color brightness (especially down low!) than saturation though.
Sounds good, I'll try your settings sometime this week. What is the base calibration for your settings?

As for once it is out of the darker APLs, I am not seeing much difference. Most of these projectors have similar total light output, so the differences are pretty fleeting. And because sequential is so much higher on the JVC/Sony projectors, they have a higher overall gamma and a darker foundation, so colors stand out more and images don't appear as washed out. Once you hit around 50% ADL they look about the same if they are similar brightness on screen. The LK may be different, I haven't measured it. But it is probably brighter than the Sony/JVC models, but with a narrower color gamut. I may have another RS3000 here in the next few weeks, so I will try and do some comparisons with higher APL content. In my room I am not looking for a light cannon. I calibrate SDR to 14-16 fL and I calibrate HDR to about 30-35 fL. With proper tone mapping that is more than enough and I would rather preserve as much dynamic range as possible over light output. There is a reason it is called HDR, and sacrificing overall dynamic range for headroom for some minor highlights makes almost no sense. But if you like a really bright image the brighter DLPs make sense.

For HDR you really can look at it just like SDR. If you like a brighter SDR image with weaker dynamic range, these brighter DLPs work the same. If you like a higher dynamic range SDR image, the JVC/Sony's provide that for both SDR and HDR at the expense of higher light output. The same strengths and weaknesses apply with both formats.
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Regarding contrast / black levels etc. How do you feel the NX9 fares in this comparison (vs the 4500)? I've read your review which would seem to suggest it's an improvement, but are there some drawbacks of the NX9 I'm not aware of?
I think we should try to move the JVC comparisons to a JVC thread. But when I had side-by-side RS4500 and NX9, the RS4500 had the superior black floor by a noticeable amount due to dynamic laser dimming being so excellent. @woofer said the same thing prior to this and I didn't believe him until I saw it myself.
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I think we should try to move the JVC comparisons to a JVC thread. But when I had side-by-side RS4500 and NX9, the RS4500 had the superior black floor by a noticeable amount due to dynamic laser dimming being so excellent. @woofer said the same thing prior to this and I didn't believe him until I saw it myself.
100% concur with this....and i have now had "3" NX9 units to compare.....(1 pre production and 2 full production..)
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I think we should try to move the JVC comparisons to a JVC thread. But when I had side-by-side RS4500 and NX9, the RS4500 had the superior black floor by a noticeable amount due to dynamic laser dimming being so excellent. @woofer said the same thing prior to this and I didn't believe him until I saw it myself.
Wasn't there an adjustment that RS3000 owners told you about, (after 3000 was gone) that would have really helped lower the black level?
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Wasn't there an adjustment that RS3000 owners told you about, (after 3000 was gone) that would have really helped lower the black level?
The adjustment was to lower brightness to -3. But many have responded that resulted in actually crushing the blacks so it could be just that the few that said to do that had unique calibration situations. Arrow's dynamic contrast measurements were very disappointing on the NX9. From what I saw, the NX9 blacks are not up to my expectation due to lack of aggressiveness on the dynamic iris on very low APL scenes and lack of simulated fade-to-black. 250K:1 is not sufficient for a fade to black.

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post #2182 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 06:21 PM
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I am in the process of swapping out for another LK970 before my 30 days expires. I should have it by the middle of next week. I will make sure that I have a 2m HDMI for the next one. I will also get a Monoprice or Ruipro cable for my long run. Does one of those have a better track record than the other? Is there any "magic" long run length-12m, 15m, etc? FYI, I really need around 40' (maybe slightly shorter) to run through my walls.

I have also upgraded to the VM300 4K video board on my NAD processor. That is an entire adventure in and of itself. I don't have high hopes running through it to the BenQ, but will give it a shot anyways.

Needless to say, this first run has been a little disappointing. However, I am still psyched. I think this is going to turn out really well in the end.

I really appreciate all of your input!

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post #2183 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I think we should try to move the JVC comparisons to a JVC thread. But when I had side-by-side RS4500 and NX9, the RS4500 had the superior black floor by a noticeable amount due to dynamic laser dimming being so excellent. @woofer said the same thing prior to this and I didn't believe him until I saw it myself.
That is what I would expect. But as good as the laser dimming is, having a higher native contrast would make scenes just above black look better. When you go from a eShift JVC to the 4500 for direct comparisons you'll see that the mid to low APL scenes hold up a bit better on the eShift models due to the higher native. With the full blackout the 4500 does a lot better.

The problem I have with the 4500 overall has nothing to do with its contrast performance but rather its limited WCG due to the insane amount of light loss if you go full gamut, its noise in high laser and its slower HDMI synching. I would love to see a 4500 replacement with about 2000 lumens calibrated output in mid-laser, a dual aperture, the filter for WCG that the NX9 has for 10-15% max light loss and the new 4K chip and HDMI board.
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post #2184 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
The ONLY way the RS4500 will almost keep up with these others is to run it on high all the time and mount it short throw .
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I will be measuring the BenQ for peak light output over the course of the next week or so, along with everything else. So we'll see how it compares to the other laser designs. The BenQ is a lot less money though, which is a great perk.
FWIW I measured the LK990 when greyscale calibrated to D6500 at only about 2650lumens... Brightest possible mode (incredibly unwatchable) was 4800lm.

Interested to see what figure you come up with calibrated too Kris.

Thats on the LK990, which is meant to be 6000 lumens. Thats a hell of a drop for calibration.

The RS4500 calibrated should just about match that with no filter engaged right?

The 5000ES should beat it by at least 1000lm...
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post #2185 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
FWIW I measured the LK990 when greyscale calibrated to D6500 at only about 2650lumens... Brightest possible mode (incredibly unwatchable) was 4800lm.

Interested to see what figure you come up with calibrated too Kris.

Thats on the LK990, which is meant to be 6000 lumens. Thats a hell of a drop for calibration.

The RS4500 calibrated should just about match that with no filter engaged right?

The 5000ES should beat it by at least 1000lm...

Myself and I believe tnaik4 and 12GAGE got in the 3500-3600 lumen range on the 970.

I also believe it was 12GAGE that found that with a full 100% white pattern it didn’t projector it’s peak white capability for whatever reason. Most likely due to how Automatic Power Control works in the 970. People really need to factor that feature in when setting up, calibrating and using these. Nobody really knows exactly how it works and what it precisely does in almost all scene cases. Whatever it is, my belief is that’s what makes the image perception of these belie their numbers. I think it makes the projector have some sort of a floating power output scale based on scene APL and other factors, differently than just a dynamic iris and gamma manipulation alone. I think that’s why my settings can be superior to HDR to SDR Tone mapping due to some factor of this that’s involved that normal testing with regular test patterns doesn’t show. Once you play with these long enough you learn their quirks, limits, strengths and characteristics so you can then massage the projector to give you the amazing image that you want and need.

And no, I didn’t say that to open up a debate, other than for others that are just as curious as I am in wanting to see how we can come together and find out exactly how this technology works and why it seems to do what it does to make these appear so much different than what you’d think based on history and numbers alone. I’m the one that does this and sees it on almost a daily basis for over a year, so I know what I’m looking at and have many, many other models and techs that I’ve seen for many years as a reference point. I simply will not be told I’m not seeing what I am, period.

(note: this wasn’t directed at you Javs, or anyone in particular)
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post #2186 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 09:06 PM
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S&V states 2280 calibrated lumens output for the RS4500
Secrets states 2180 " ".
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post #2187 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
That is what I would expect. But as good as the laser dimming is, having a higher native contrast would make scenes just above black look better. When you go from a eShift JVC to the 4500 for direct comparisons you'll see that the mid to low APL scenes hold up a bit better on the eShift models due to the higher native. With the full blackout the 4500 does a lot better.

The problem I have with the 4500 overall has nothing to do with its contrast performance but rather its limited WCG due to the insane amount of light loss if you go full gamut, its noise in high laser and its slower HDMI synching. I would love to see a 4500 replacement with about 2000 lumens calibrated output in mid-laser, a dual aperture, the filter for WCG that the NX9 has for 10-15% max light loss and the new 4K chip and HDMI board.
Going straight from my RS600 to the RS4500, it took the two firmware updates to get the RS4500 close ( via laser dimming ). A good scene or two are the underwater propeller and well head scenes in the " Deepwater Horizon " 4K Blu-ray. Those scenes looked pretty good on the RS600 - they are very dark underwater scenes. They looked pretty gray / murky on my RS4500 when I first got it, but after the laser dimming firmware updates and a full calibration, were pretty close to the RS600. I should re-watch them with the Lumagen and the DTM now and see if the DTM improved those scenes yet again. I'd be curious to see what those scenes look like on the BenQ too.
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post #2188 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
When you go from a eShift JVC to the 4500 for direct comparisons you'll see that the mid to low APL scenes hold up a bit better on the eShift models due to the higher native.

.
I have actually found the opposite.. this is in direct comparison with my X9900 and X7500 as well as the NX9.
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post #2189 of 2232 Old 05-15-2019, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I also believe it was 12GAGE that found that with a full 100% white pattern it didn’t projector it’s peak white capability for whatever reason. Most likely due to how Automatic Power Control works in the 970. People really need to factor that feature in when setting up, calibrating and using these. Nobody really knows exactly how it works and what it precisely does in almost all scene cases. Whatever it is, my belief is that’s what makes the image perception of these belie their numbers. I think it makes the projector have some sort of a floating power output scale based on scene APL and other factors, differently than just a dynamic iris and gamma manipulation alone. I think that’s why my settings can be superior to HDR to SDR Tone mapping due to some factor of this that’s involved that normal testing with regular test patterns doesn’t show. Once you play with these long enough you learn their quirks, limits, strengths and characteristics so you can then massage the projector to give you the amazing image that you want and need.
Regarding the 990, it does not differ in how it displays peak white based on what is on the screen. I have tested this very thing at length and actually measured it. When you display ADL patterns there are tiny white boxes, which are nowhere near full field. The projector displays these tiny white boxes at the same nits level as a full field.

All these boxes were the same brightness... I measured them all. If its not going to display its maximum peak white with only a 1% ADL white box, then it never will in any useful circumstance. I even tested this with white boxes 1/4 the size of 1% ADL below, I did this while I was trying to find when the dimming works, and what the max dimming was, and when it stops working, and when it clips white if the white box is small enough (which it does), I did this with a meter over the box and alternating between white and the opposite image.

I will tell you one interesting fact, dimming does seem to differ depending on WHERE the white is in the frame, I sometimes got different levels of background dimming when the box was in the middle vs on the outside, but in all cases, white measured the same in full field as it did in the little boxes except when dimming was at its maximum obviously, it never measured greater.

I dont know what the 970 does, but I know Kris will actually measure this the same way I did, not by plugging in a voltage meter into the wall and watching power draw.
@12GAGE please point me to this post about the power draw with your measurements. Thanks.

You need to measure this thing with real white patterns at various ADL's. I even did this in HDR mode, no difference.

















Quote:
Once you play with these long enough you learn their quirks, limits, strengths and characteristics so you can then massage the projector to give you the amazing image that you want and need.
Is almost 50 hours of doing nothing BUT this sort of stuff enough time? Because if you cannot figure out a display 100% in that length of time you are no good.
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post #2190 of 2232 Old 05-16-2019, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Sorry to rock your boat but I believe MOST people won't like a properly calibrated projector... might be a good place to start, then add your own till you like it... take for instance, the Cinema 1 and Reference Mode in all Sony projectors.. the Reference mode is very close to reference colors, but hardly anyone would use that.. they'll prefer the jazzed up cinema 1 mode... even then i'll jazz it up further... I know a local calibrator who calibrates a lot of projectors for every brand, Sony, JVCs, Epsons... though they look pretty good after calibration, people still adjusts them to taste...
spot on.
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